Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed? - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 10, 07:28 AM Thread Starter
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Tony
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Cumming, Ga
Posts: 643
Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

Hey guys I need some help on this one. I'm building a 454 and I was going to go with Comp Cam XR-288-HR. I'm using a Tremec TKO 600 with the .64 overdrive and a 355 gear and I'm concerned that the cam my builder installed will not work well with the 5 speed setup. I don't want to have that lurching feeling in 5th gear if you know what I mean. What do guys think?

What I wanted to go with:

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy hydraulic roller XR-288-HR
Hydraulic Roller-Street / Strip applications, works well in large c.i. street machine engines with 2500+ stall.

Intake Exhaust
Dur. 288 294
Dur @ .050" Lift 236 242
Valve Lift .0521 .054
Lobe Lift .0307 .0319


What my builder installed:

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy hydraulic roller XR-294-HR
Hydraulic Roller-Street / Strip applications, 10:1 compression, 3000+ stall, intake, headers, gears.

Intake Exhaust
Dur. 294 300
Dur @ .050" Lift 242 248
Valve Lift .054 .056
Lobe Lift .0319 .033
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 10, 09:20 AM
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Tom
 
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Smile Re: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

Cams are not that much different. Make sure you have 10:1 compression or more. I would also put some more rear gear into it. At least 3.73's.

69 Camaro -originally a LM1 car. 327, Edelbrock E-streets, hooker, DUI performance distributors, ultradyne cam, stewart, TRW etc. Vintage Air, AGR steering, Corbeau GTSII seats, 700R4 TPI transmission, 12-bolt w/Eaton 4.11:1
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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 10, 09:27 AM Thread Starter
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Tony
 
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Re: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJS69 View Post
Cams are not that much different. Make sure you have 10:1 compression or more. I would also put some more rear gear into it. At least 3.73's.
Thanks for the good advice. With the pistons and heads I'm using, I should have 10:1 c.r, so I should be good there. Your'e right...I may need to switch to a 3.73 gear. So do you think with that combination I so be good with driveability?
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 10, 09:50 AM
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Jeff
 
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Re: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyvol View Post
Thanks for the good advice. With the pistons and heads I'm using, I should have 10:1 c.r, so I should be good there. Your'e right...I may need to switch to a 3.73 gear. So do you think with that combination I so be good with driveability?
You should be good with that combination..Those arent very big cams for a 454. Especially since the Lobe seperation on those I believe is 110, there wont be alot of overlap to deal with.
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 10, 10:00 AM
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Fred
 
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Re: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

And it should have good vacuum too. Rest easy and enjoy. Hey! It's a roller. Don't like it? Change it. No need to replace any other components. In fact, some of those fancy new engines that copy ours, (forget who makes them) even have a cam-change feature. Flip a lever and the rollers are raised away from the lobes and the cam is free to pull out and replace. Neat. That's rollers for you. Who makes that?

One owner 69 Camaro,(yep, bought it new)
RS SS Hugger Orange, L88, 4:10's tru-tack posi, ducted hood, Endura, spoilers.
TH400 (CX) with Coan 8" converter, GV-OD, 8 track still on console and best et 10.495, 128.79mph 1.428 60'
All with 1960's stuff. (except tires and converter)
+ MT Super Scavenger headers & 3" full exhaust with X pipe. 3700 lbs. with me in it.
1000cfm AED and HD Harold-Lunati SR, 725 lift with shaft rockers too.
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 10, 12:57 PM
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Alan
 
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Re: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

Hey Fred, I see you're flirting with near 10's......nice, drop me a line.take care....alan
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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 1st, 10, 01:22 PM
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Fred
 
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Re: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 98blackburb View Post
Hey Fred, I see you're flirting with near 10's......nice, drop me a line.take care....alan
Done.

One owner 69 Camaro,(yep, bought it new)
RS SS Hugger Orange, L88, 4:10's tru-tack posi, ducted hood, Endura, spoilers.
TH400 (CX) with Coan 8" converter, GV-OD, 8 track still on console and best et 10.495, 128.79mph 1.428 60'
All with 1960's stuff. (except tires and converter)
+ MT Super Scavenger headers & 3" full exhaust with X pipe. 3700 lbs. with me in it.
1000cfm AED and HD Harold-Lunati SR, 725 lift with shaft rockers too.
http://epitomesrebuild.com/
http://ss427.net/
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 2nd, 10, 06:44 PM
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Re: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

You probably will have issues under ~2000 rpms with the larger cam. Once you get to 2000 or higher, both cams will be fine. I run a 248/254 SR Comp right now. After you subtract lash, its more like 240/246. Under 2000 its bucks a bit, primarily around 1500-1600 rpms. This is with a 502, TKO .64, 3.90 rear gear, 28" tires. I ran a 231/239 Lunati HR, and she would go down to 1100-1200 rpm easily when I had the 454, everything else the same. I changed that cam to a 245/252 comp HR, and again, under 2000 was rough.

Keep in mind, this was around-town/fast back back roads. On the highway - run just about whatever you want, so long as the rpms are over 2000, you'll be fine.

VINCE
69 CHEVELLE SS
502 EFI/[224/228 HR]/T56/3.90
*1.8/11.59/124.34*
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 2nd, 10, 07:27 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

You're going to get arrested out on the highway in that thing.

With a 3.55 gear I think it's going to have issues under 2000 which means you have to be running almost 70mph. I run a 3.42, 224/224 @0.050", and 10.11:1 and it will pull fifth uphill at 1500 RPM (as long as I don't try to give it too much throttle) and flat roads with light throttle at 1300 and up but I have EFI which I think makes a difference. My gear is the main reason I picked that cam. Of course, this is a 400 SBC not a big block. One of the main issues isn't really the amount of power you have below 2000 RPM but that the torque multiplication with a 0.64 OD and light rear just doesn't put a lot of torque down to the wheels and puts a lot of load on the engine.

Wish I had done more gear though. I like being able to run around town in fifth and I'm just barely on the cam right now. However, one of the good things about having a little less gear is that fourth runs a fairly low RPM when running around town at 35-45 mph and the torque multiplication is good enough that it scoots well.


Oh, one other thing......did they dyno your engine and where did it make peak power? I would think it would be fairly high (mine was at 5800). With a hydraulic roller that starts to come apart not too far north of 6000, there's not a whole lot of reason to have it peak out way up there. It would aggravate me if I asked for one cam and the builder put in another unless there was a really good reason for it (dynamic compression or something).

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft
www.cmengines.com
'69 Camaro Beater-SFT 327-M20-Moser 4.10-sold
'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 2nd, 10, 07:40 PM
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george
 
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Re: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyvol View Post
Hey guys I need some help on this one. I'm building a 454 and I was going to go with Comp Cam XR-288-HR. I'm using a Tremec TKO 600 with the .64 overdrive and a 355 gear and I'm concerned that the cam my builder installed will not work well with the 5 speed setup. I don't want to have that lurching feeling in 5th gear if you know what I mean. What do guys think?

What I wanted to go with:

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy hydraulic roller XR-288-HR
Hydraulic Roller-Street / Strip applications, works well in large c.i. street machine engines with 2500+ stall.

Intake Exhaust
Dur. 288 294
Dur @ .050" Lift 236 242
Valve Lift .0521 .054
Lobe Lift .0307 .0319


What my builder installed:

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy hydraulic roller XR-294-HR
Hydraulic Roller-Street / Strip applications, 10:1 compression, 3000+ stall, intake, headers, gears.

Intake Exhaust
Dur. 294 300
Dur @ .050" Lift 242 248
Valve Lift .054 .056
Lobe Lift .0319 .033
Without knowing your total combo and your power goals (maybe I missed that)..I prefer your cam choice over the builders,with cruising and driveability in mind as you stated.
Nice thing is that you have 5 ratios to find the sweet spot and some room to play with rear tire size before a gear swap.

George
68 Camaro
8-71 blown 461 Rat on E-85
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 3rd, 10, 05:21 PM Thread Starter
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Tony
 
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Location: Cumming, Ga
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Re: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatblock View Post
Without knowing your total combo and your power goals (maybe I missed that)..I prefer your cam choice over the builders,with cruising and driveability in mind as you stated.
Nice thing is that you have 5 ratios to find the sweet spot and some room to play with rear tire size before a gear swap.
Thanks guys for the great replies. So if I change to a 3.73 gear will this change make the cruising and driveability better with this cam?
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 3rd, 10, 07:45 PM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

I don't think a 3.73 is enough. That moves the RPM's up less than 200 at 70mph. I think something between a 3.90 and 4.11 would be good but the problem once you get up to a 4.11 is that first gear gets so short. That big drop between fourth and fifth with the TKO-600 puts you from on the cam to off the cam in normal street driving scenarios too easily to me and is really the only issue I have with this trans but it is a friggin' jet out on the highway. You know, the TKO-600RR would be a good one with your gear if you didn't already have the regular 600.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft
www.cmengines.com
'69 Camaro Beater-SFT 327-M20-Moser 4.10-sold
'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 4th, 10, 05:16 AM Thread Starter
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Tony
 
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Re: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steiner View Post
I don't think a 3.73 is enough. That moves the RPM's up less than 200 at 70mph. I think something between a 3.90 and 4.11 would be good but the problem once you get up to a 4.11 is that first gear gets so short. That big drop between fourth and fifth with the TKO-600 puts you from on the cam to off the cam in normal street driving scenarios too easily to me and is really the only issue I have with this trans but it is a friggin' jet out on the highway. You know, the TKO-600RR would be a good one with your gear if you didn't already have the regular 600.
So... what would be the best thing to do? Change the cam or go with a 3.90gear? If I go with a 3.90 gear will I have a real short first gear? Also, I was thinking about running vintage air on the car...how will the cam work for that. Thanks for all the great advice and trying point me in the right direction.

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy hydraulic roller XR-294-HR
Hydraulic Roller-Street / Strip applications, 10:1 compression, 3000+ stall, intake, headers, gears.

Intake Exhaust
Dur. 294 300
Dur @ .050" Lift 242 248
Valve Lift .054 .056
Lobe Lift .0319 .033
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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 4th, 10, 05:26 AM
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Re: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steiner View Post
I don't think a 3.73 is enough. That moves the RPM's up less than 200 at 70mph. I think something between a 3.90 and 4.11 would be good but the problem once you get up to a 4.11 is that first gear gets so short. That big drop between fourth and fifth with the TKO-600 puts you from on the cam to off the cam in normal street driving scenarios too easily to me and is really the only issue I have with this trans but it is a friggin' jet out on the highway. You know, the TKO-600RR would be a good one with your gear if you didn't already have the regular 600.
This is the "problem" with the trans...the huge space between 4th and 5th. I could be driving at 2500 in 4th, shift to 5th, rpms drop to 1500, and the motor doesn't really like it. You have to deal with this space no matter what your rear gear is, cause all your rear gear does is move this "space" up or down. I'm running 3.90's now, will likely go to 4.11's as my ring and pinion are messed-up anyway. However, there wont be a big difference from 3.90 to 4.11's.

Question is, how do you use the car? If your around town mostly and want to use 5th, you need to install a small cam, and get some gear in there. Highway, you can run just about any cam, so long as you get the rpms up over 2000. Mine purs at 2000-2100 at 70 on the highway.

If I had to do it all over again, probably run the .82 RR unit along with a 3.55 to 3.73, and enjoy another "evenly" spaced gear drop from 4th to 5th. Probably would get better mileagle as I'd be in 5th all the time around town, rather than screaming in 4th, lugging in 5th.

PS - dont worry about teh too short first gear thing...its supposed to be short! Stick cars like gear, about as much as you can throw at them, as there's no convertor here helping out...its all muscle!

VINCE
69 CHEVELLE SS
502 EFI/[224/228 HR]/T56/3.90
*1.8/11.59/124.34*
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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old Aug 4th, 10, 08:04 AM
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Steiner
 
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Re: Is this To Much Cam for 5 Speed?

The big questions are:
-What compression is your engine?
-What heads are you running?
-What is your main use for the car?

I spent probably a month putting mine together on paper. It'll still pull the 3.42 rear at 50mph in fifth but the 3.73 would've put about 9% more torque down and would've moved my low speed fifth habit into a sweeter spot. Most of our city streets here are 45mph four lanes (can run 55) so I wanted to be able to use fifth in town.

Now, I have no big block experience. I don't know how they affect how big a cam looks compared to a small block.

'69 Camaro
Dart 400-AFR 195-224/224 HR-Powerjection III TB with F.A.S.T. Sportsman XFI
TKO 600-Moser 3.42-Detroit Truetrac
500hp/538lbft
www.cmengines.com
'69 Camaro Beater-SFT 327-M20-Moser 4.10-sold
'02 Z/28 vert-stock-sold and totaled
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