PS Pump got possessed - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old Nov 18th, 12, 07:56 AM Thread Starter
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Brian
 
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PS Pump got possessed

I should first say- I read through 16 pages of vintage PS pump posts and didn't seem to see what I just saw on Saturday. After starting my car to warm it up, about three minutes go by and the engine totally dies. I'm thinking fuel delivery problem.. check everything out and find that the PS pump went from smoothly turning (at idle speed) to being so encumbered that it literally stalled out the engine and was very hot.

After a brief cool down period, I found that I can turn the pulley by hand quite easily, have good pulley alignment, fresh topped off fluid, good belt tension, proper high/low pressure line connections. I restart the car to start to diagnose the pump (had to turn up the idle speed), and see that it's getting roasting hot, and I am getting smoke from the PS Box, including a little sizzling out around the high pressure fitting on the box.

So "at speed" i.e. faster than I can hand turn it- something is going wrong. Fluid circulation (or lack of) is obviously causing the heat, but would that be due to a fault with the box, or is it fault with the pump?

This is the new PS pump I have: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-340104

Thanks!

1969 Camaro 383
2.02/1.63 & 234/244 Vortec
TH350 / 12 bolt 3.73
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old Nov 18th, 12, 08:32 AM
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Mike
 
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Re: PS Pump got possessed

Did you bleed all the air out of the system? When i installed all my new stuff a few years ago the instructions said to bleed all the air out of the system before starting it or damage to the system could occur. It said to fill the pump with fluid with the engine off and have someone turn the steering wheel stop to stop slowly and watch for the bubbles to stop in the front. I hope this helps and i hope you have not done any damage to your system. Good luck

67 R/S Blue 406 518HP and 504TQ Dart block,Callies crank,Mahle pistons,Ultradyne cam 230/238 duration @.050 530 lift at 113 lsa, Afr 195 heads,Holley 4150HP carb and RPM Air gap. TKO600 with 373 gears
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old Nov 18th, 12, 08:44 AM Thread Starter
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Brian
 
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Re: PS Pump got possessed

Can't recall if I did a bleed down procedure or not- installed it quite a bit ago. However air in the system would cause squealing and notchy turns but not slow the pulley down to stall the motor?

1969 Camaro 383
2.02/1.63 & 234/244 Vortec
TH350 / 12 bolt 3.73
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old Nov 18th, 12, 09:30 AM
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Tom
 
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Smile Re: PS Pump got possessed

It sounds like you are getting an air lock. Raise the front of the car so wheels are hanging free. (Put on jack stands) Turn steering wheel from lock to lock about 50 times to bleed out the air. Do this with engine not running !

69 Camaro -originally a LM1 car. 327, Edelbrock E-streets, hooker, DUI performance distributors, ultradyne cam, stewart, TRW etc. Vintage Air, AGR steering, Corbeau GTSII seats, 700R4 TPI transmission, 12-bolt w/Eaton 4.11:1
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old Nov 19th, 12, 05:54 AM
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Re: PS Pump got possessed

Trapped air in the system would cause noise and a lack of power assist. It would not cause a great increase in torque (force) to turn the pulley. You could have damaged the pump by running it at high engine rpms with lots of trapped air (millions of tiny bubbles causing the fluid to look milky). Otherwise, from your description, all things point to a defective pump right from the start.

I assume that you didn't do anything to the steering gear (it worked correctly before the new pump was installed.)

Jim
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old Nov 19th, 12, 05:54 AM Thread Starter
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Brian
 
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Re: PS Pump got possessed

Ok fellas- I'll try that out then. Thanks for the replies!

1969 Camaro 383
2.02/1.63 & 234/244 Vortec
TH350 / 12 bolt 3.73
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old Nov 19th, 12, 07:00 AM
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Gary
 
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Re: PS Pump got possessed

or, replace the pump and follow proceedure as outlined above as the internals on your pump may be as crispy as a potato chip.

Gary
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old Nov 19th, 12, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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Brian
 
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Re: PS Pump got possessed

Well let's hope not Gary. I shut it down pretty fast after observing the trouble, here's to positive thinking!

1969 Camaro 383
2.02/1.63 & 234/244 Vortec
TH350 / 12 bolt 3.73
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old Nov 21st, 12, 05:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: PS Pump got possessed

Here is some follow up... Bleed down procedure yielded not a single bubble... Don't think I have an airlock. Did 50x side to side (jacked up) with the steering wheel, then low speed turned the pump with air ratchet and same thing happened, pulley got progressively stiffer and stiffer to turn. Think I got a bad pump.

1969 Camaro 383
2.02/1.63 & 234/244 Vortec
TH350 / 12 bolt 3.73
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old Dec 6th, 12, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
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Brian
 
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Re: PS Pump got possessed

Follow up x2:

So I tore into my system and believe I found the problem. Had a lack of full consideration for some parts transferred from the old PS pump to the new one... Answer in the pictures below... can you see what it is?

Fitting Comparisons

Slotted Control Valve


Answer: My replacement pump had a female fitting, whereas my existing pump had a male fitting matched to a similar (incorrect) pressure hose. Why does it matter? Well, it doesn't, except that you need to watch the style of the internal flow control valve that the fitting butts up against. My old fitting (the male one) matched against a flow control valve with a relief slot cut into it to provide fluid passage when the steering wheel is stationary. My new fitting (female) is designed to butt up against a flow control valve with a flat surface because the fitting is cross-drilled with a relief port on the side.

All because I didn't want to have to replace a hose, I was lead to swap the fittings, and there started a condition where my pump couldn't do what it was designed to do, since the fluid it wanted to move (while the car is stationary) had no where to go. Pretty sure I burned it up... after resolving the entire issue of the incorrect hose, fitting, and valve with the right set up, I couldn't see evidence of fluid transfer when I spun it with my air ratchet.

1969 Camaro 383
2.02/1.63 & 234/244 Vortec
TH350 / 12 bolt 3.73
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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old Dec 7th, 12, 05:43 AM
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Re: PS Pump got possessed

When you purchased the replacement pump, some instructions tell you to just swap the flow control valve, spring, discharge fitting and reservoir from your original pump. If you swap all three or four parts, you should not have a problem. Most people would not even notice the differences in valves and fittings and would just mix and match.

You are correct about the slot in the face of the flow control valve. I think the later discharge fittings had holes cross drilled in the discharge fitting to obtain the same affect.

I think that your pump is damaged and must be replaced. I would think that replacement pump instructions should warn people of the need to swap all the parts together. In other words, I would blame the supplier of the pump for causing your problem.

Jim
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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old Dec 7th, 12, 09:27 AM Thread Starter
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Re: PS Pump got possessed

The Saginaw replacement pump available from Summit (decent looking pump, nice paint on the outside and chrome cap) came with the pump in a big baggie and nothing else in the box beside a receipt. The replacement pump I got from Autozone isn't nearly as nice, came in a big baggie with minimal instructions that deal more bleeding procedure. I think where I got sunk on this project was having an incorrect hose in the car that I took for granted to be right. That kicked off the issues that followed.

1969 Camaro 383
2.02/1.63 & 234/244 Vortec
TH350 / 12 bolt 3.73
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old Dec 12th, 12, 10:55 PM
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Re: PS Pump got possessed

You could swap the internals between the pumps

Check my web page for First Gen Camaro suspension info: http://www.pozziracing.com
67 RS 327 original owner. 1965 Lola T-70
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