DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 1st, 05, 01:44 PM Thread Starter
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Dave
 
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DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

My friend had his DZ302 set up with the "140" cam, 64 cc fuelie heads and with the aftermarket pistons .060 that we believe netted to 12.5:1 CR. That combo put down just over 300 RWHP on a dynojet last spring. Trap speeds at E-town, NJ were in the 102-103 mph range with 4.56 gears and an M21.

We were talking to a very convincing Scott Shafiroff and my friend was sold on a Crane solid roller cam setup with 76 cc aluminum AFR 210 heads. Since I'm not sure about the dome size on that piston I can't determine the expected CR but I'm thinking low to mid 10's.

All you SB and 302 guru's out there please pony up some insight on expected CR and whether the reduction will negatively impact the ability to rev this motor. Shafiroff disagreed and thinks we should observe net gains of 100+ FWHP. We'd be happy with gains of 50-75 RWHP.

Sorry I don't have the cam specs on hand.
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post #2 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 1st, 05, 02:57 PM
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Re: DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

The 210's are huge for a 302. What rpm do you want to turn it? Do you want to cut compression to run pump gas or was that the recommendation given?
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post #3 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 1st, 05, 06:38 PM
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Re: DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

I have AFR 195's on my 302 with a .580 lift roler cam. My set-up required +.100 pushrods. I had to, with AFR's help, re shape the combustion chambers in order to use the factory pistons. Mine came out 10:1 on the nose with a .045 (i think) head gasket. I have a Holley z/28 style intake (coming OFF!!!). It chokes it to death compared to my old offy crossram. I am switchign to a 1" tall victor Jr. And gonna play with the carbs. I have a 770 holley on it now. Runs great! But gonna try an old three barrel 950 for kicks. The car right now is absolutely balls to the wall past 3200. It's unreal. But that's with an M20 and 4:10 rear. It's a screamer, and gets awesome traction. I estimate the HP to be around a solid 450.00, give ot take a little. It's fun!

--X22d80ragtop
1969 Z/28 Cortez Silver, D80 option, 8k tach and gauges.
1969 SS 396/350 Convertible, Cortez Silver,4 speed,D80 option
1971 RS Z/28, classic copper, 8k tach, ugly as u can get.. but a Z.
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post #4 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 2nd, 05, 06:26 AM
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Smile Re: DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

Please come back and tell us how you like the 3-barrel b/c I would like one for my 496.

I know motor size enters in here so just your opinion is fine for me now...

pdq67
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post #5 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 4th, 05, 07:24 AM Thread Starter
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Re: DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil B
The 210's are huge for a 302. What rpm do you want to turn it? Do you want to cut compression to run pump gas or was that the recommendation given?
he still wants to rev the snot out of this 302 but i'm sure he'd be content if the power is there and only revs to 6500-6800.

we asked shafiroff about a good 302 combo and this head/roller cam combo was suggested for some big power gains. he shrugged off the reduced CR as a non-issue.
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post #6 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 4th, 05, 08:28 AM
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Re: DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

I would ask the engine builder at what rpm range his recommendation will work best at. AFR 210's on a 302 sounds like a full race motor to me. Ask him for the cam specs too. IMO, a big intake port, big cammed motor with 10:1 compression would be a dog at low rpm.
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post #7 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 8th, 05, 06:16 AM Thread Starter
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Re: DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil B
I would ask the engine builder at what rpm range his recommendation will work best at. AFR 210's on a 302 sounds like a full race motor to me. Ask him for the cam specs too. IMO, a big intake port, big cammed motor with 10:1 compression would be a dog at low rpm.
recommended rpm range is 3500-8500. the previous setup was already a dog at low rpm just like a stock 302.
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post #8 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 05, 04:31 AM Thread Starter
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Re: DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

Here are the Comp Cam specs,

#12-770-8
gross lift 564/570
duration at 015 tappet lift is 274/280
duration at 050 is 236/242
lobe lift at 050 is 377/381
lobe separation is 110*

Another question relates to the Demon 750 carb that he has. The car is running very rich. I checked his jets and they are 78 primaries and 87 secondaries. The secondary PV is a 15 but there's no # on the primary PV. Both squirters are 28's. How much should we jet down?
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post #9 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 05, 09:33 PM
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Re: DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

The Comp 12-770-8 has a 2,200-6,200rpm powerband according to the Comp catalog. Looks like a nice cam for a 10:1 302. You'll have a ton more low end power than you have with the -140 cam. The AFR210's are bigger than what most people would recommend for the rest of the combo. I'm curious why the builder is recommending these heads over the 195's.

For what it's worth, I like your current 'old school' combo. 300+ hp at the tires is a good number for what you've got.
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post #10 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 05, 10:58 PM
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Re: DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

not much of a small cube guy, but i like the look of the cam package. and, while the heads seem big, remember even a small cube motor is moving some serious air at 8500. my moneys on shafiroff, the guy KNOWS how to build wicked street/race motors, and if you explained your needs, i would trust his opinion and never look back. i doubt you'll be disappointed, your not talking joes speedy engine build, this is scott shafiroff, the name speaks for itself.
as smokey yunick once said "build horsepower and gear accordingly". a 302 fits this to a tee.
my buddy pieced togethor a 406 from reccomendations solely from shafiroff over the phone, and it made over 700 horse n/a, with 23* standard runner heads. he was extremely helpful, and made little money on the deal, just as an indication of the type of guy he is.
i say go for, it sounds like a blast!

Sean

1968 rs, with an old school, antiquated "junkyard, never even had the valve covers off" 354" SB2.2 pump gas motor........

"I aint never seen talking win me nothin'" -Marshawn Lynch
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post #11 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 05, 06:03 AM Thread Starter
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Re: DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil B
The Comp 12-770-8 has a 2,200-6,200rpm powerband according to the Comp catalog. Looks like a nice cam for a 10:1 302. You'll have a ton more low end power than you have with the -140 cam. The AFR210's are bigger than what most people would recommend for the rest of the combo. I'm curious why the builder is recommending these heads over the 195's.

For what it's worth, I like your current 'old school' combo. 300+ hp at the tires is a good number for what you've got.
Shafiroff probably needed to move the 210's off his shelf, LOL. Just to be clear, 300 rwhp was with the old combo. The new combo is out and running as of Friday. Feels really strong. Running way rich and we've got some oil leaks to figure out. The Demon carb is off (see jetting info above 78 primaries and 87 secondaries) and we will jet down to lean it out a bit. We'll be taking the car to a dynojet hopefully this Saturday 4/16.

I know the car really well although I've never driven it. What I notice is the power builds up quicker than the old setup, I feel pushed back harder in my seat and the most noticeable difference is that the car literally jumps when he shifts...I mean this car really bangs into the next gear really hard not like before where it seemed the RPMs needed to spool up before you felt anything.

Any advice on timing it's around 18-20* initial advance and a total advance of around 36-38* and I believe all in by 3000 RPM? What about the jet sizes? Thanks again.
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post #12 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 05, 09:02 AM
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Re: DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperDaveACN
Shafiroff probably needed to move the 210's off his shelf, LOL. Just to be clear, 300 rwhp was with the old combo. The new combo is out and running as of Friday. Feels really strong. Running way rich and we've got some oil leaks to figure out. The Demon carb is off (see jetting info above 78 primaries and 87 secondaries) and we will jet down to lean it out a bit. We'll be taking the car to a dynojet hopefully this Saturday 4/16.

I know the car really well although I've never driven it. What I notice is the power builds up quicker than the old setup, I feel pushed back harder in my seat and the most noticeable difference is that the car literally jumps when he shifts...I mean this car really bangs into the next gear really hard not like before where it seemed the RPMs needed to spool up before you felt anything.

Any advice on timing it's around 18-20* initial advance and a total advance of around 36-38* and I believe all in by 3000 RPM? What about the jet sizes? Thanks again.
You're probably making a bunch more low end torque with the new cam which is why it feels stronger. The timing looks about right to me. What power valve is in the carb? I'm not sure what a '15' power valve is. Make sure the PV's aren't opening at idle - this would cause a rich condition. Get the PV's right by checking idle vacuum and then installing the correct PV's. After the PV's are correct, you can jet the primaries by reducing the jetting until it starts to hesitate/stumble under normal light-throttle driving (and then jet up until the problem goes away). My suggestion would be to re-jet the secondaries to factory jetting and then tune the car on the dyno. I'm very interested to see the new numbers from the dyno.
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post #13 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 05, 09:13 AM
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Re: DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

Just out of curiosity, what headers did you use with the 210's? Any clearance issues? They have a raised exhaust port which is why I didn't use them on my project.
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post #14 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 05, 09:34 AM Thread Starter
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Re: DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil B
What power valve is in the carb? I'm not sure what a '15' power valve is.
The carb is a Demon 750...there was no # on the primary PV and the secondary PV had what looks like a 1 and a 5 but maybe it was a 7 and a 5. So maybe the seconday PV is a 7.5??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil B
Just out of curiosity, what headers did you use with the 210's? Any clearance issues?
We re-used his Hooker SC's and there are no clearance problems.
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post #15 of 34 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 05, 09:40 AM
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Re: DZ302 + roller cam/lifters + AFR 210's

Quote:
Originally Posted by SooperDaveACN
The carb is a Demon 750...there was no # on the primary PV and the secondary PV had what looks like a 1 and a 5 but maybe it was a 7 and a 5. So maybe the seconday PV is a 7.5??



We re-used his Hooker SC's and there are no clearance problems.
With the new cam, you're probably making around 10" vacuum. So if you have a 7.5 PV you're probably ok.

I would love to see a pic of your Hooker SC clearance at the bottom of the steering box. My Hooker's are right up against the pitman arm nut with stock port location heads.
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