lifters wont pump up - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 16th, 06, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
 
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Angry lifters wont pump up

Hi all,
I have a 69 camaro as well that has a basicly a tock 350 with a edlebrock perfomer intake headers etc... I recently installed a comp cams extreme energy 268 camshaft the cars runs great infact the cam change shave 9 tenths of a second of the et and gaind 5 mph in the 1320. Anyhow I seem to have 2 of 3 lifters that wont seem to pump up and stay pumped up on each bank. I haver set the valves numerous times but cant get rid of the valve train noise. i know first thought....... the cam is going flat. I dont think so. When I set the valves I bumped each cylinder with a remote started switch intill the lifters are on the base circle and then set to zero lash plus a half turn. I can run all day and then pull the valve cover and put the lifter back on the base and you can push the rocker down and collapse the lifter on a few. I even set the valves with the car running ( I hate that mess) just make sure and Iam having the same problem.
I have done many cam swaps pver the years and never had this problem before. I am using the comp cam lifter that came with the kit so its not like I put cheep lifters. I could see maybe 1 bad lifter butnot 4 of 5 out of 16.
Anyone have any ideas what is causing this? Have I overlooked something stupid?

Thanks in advance
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 16th, 06, 07:31 PM
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Pat
 
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Re: lifters wont pump up

Probably a dumb question but hows your oil pressure? Is it always the same lifters giving trouble?
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 16th, 06, 07:50 PM Thread Starter
 
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Re: lifters wont pump up

Oil pressure is good. It seems like it is worse after the car is hot (oil thins out) the liftes that are the worst are #3 exhaust, #5 exhaust and on the right bank # 4 exhaust & #6 exhaust. Wow now that I am typing this it even seems stranger that the 4 worst are all togather. Oiling problem? blocked passage? Also to make things more confusing it seems like it comes and goes. One time to check them and the lifters are pumped hard as a rock and the next time spongy. I am temped to just go buy another set of lifters and be done with it.
any thoughts?
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 16th, 06, 08:04 PM
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Re: lifters wont pump up

Quote:
I could see maybe 1 bad lifter butnot 4 of 5 out of 16.
I disagree
A bad run/batch is the norm on mass produced items...check back with the supplier, he maybe getting a 'run' of these.
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 16th, 06, 08:53 PM
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Re: lifters wont pump up

the extreme energy cams do make valve train noise. It may be normal.

Jody
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 06, 05:50 AM
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Re: lifters wont pump up

Looks like one way or the other you may have to pull them.. Unless you can work them to pump up running.

If not, I would pull them and individually check each problem one for leakage. Put each one in a small can with oil covering lifter and set up some type of press,,, a drill press will work, install one push rod and with the lifter in oil pump up and down until you see all air bubbles come out in the lifter. You can see this in the oil too. Once they appear pumped up then go to next one .

Its gonna be a pain but if you wind up pulling all of them to return or even replacing just those 4 -5 , you have the issue of new lifter on a broke in cam. If you dont have too many miles on it ,, you can get away with it.

I had few that did this and I took them apart and checked them then refilled them ,, No problems after that. Learning this , then next time I ran a XE268,,, I used Rhodes lifters... No noise .

Don
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Last edited by zdld17; Mar 17th, 06 at 07:17 PM.
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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 06, 07:56 AM
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Re: lifters wont pump up

If you have a dial indicator you can easily check the lobe lift on each pushrod and tell right away if you have lobes going on you. About 3 years ago a major lifter manufacturer went out of buisness and sent everyone into a tizzy. Since then there has been a rash of defective lifters, but has been mostly cured since then. I know many other engine builders/hot rodders that had this problem. I was also a victim of this. Lost a brand new 355 to bad lifters. I think we lost like 6 of them in 20 minutes. Rebuilt with new bearings and gaskets and of course a new cam and lifter set. Have had no problem before or since.
If you do find shot lifters, PLEASE do not just replace them with new ones and attempt to reuse the cam. The damage is already done and you will wipe those out even faster.
For break(and even continuous use) in I recommend valvoline VR1 conventional racing oil. It is the only one I know of that has ZINC additive in it. After breakin I like the VR1 synthetic. The major manufacturers have widely removed this high pressure addidive because it is bad for new fangled "efficient" engines. Think its got something to do with long term catalytic converter problems.

Randy
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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 06, 06:41 PM
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Re: lifters wont pump up

I just went thru this with a 350. The lifters were sh*t. They were new comps also. After bending 3 valves I figured it out.
Pull the rockers & spin the motor and watch the valves close before your eyes. LOL

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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 06, 07:58 PM
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Re: lifters wont pump up

zdld17 has a point...rhodes lifters will definetly rule out your lifter problem if thats what you have...rhodes are somre of the best on the market
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 06, 08:02 PM
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Re: lifters wont pump up

One other thing I do think it is odd that you have #3,#4,#5,#6,exhaust lifters as your problem,if it is a lifter problem what are the odds that all are exhaust and all are center block?
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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 17th, 06, 09:08 PM
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Re: lifters wont pump up

I have the same problem with a XE262 in a 327. I also bought the cam and lifters as a kit. Number 4 exhaust ticks when warm. At first I thought the cam was going flat. I pulled the intake manifold to check it out. The lifters looked fine and were still convex on the bottom. I suspected a bad lifter. I dissembled the suspect lifter and it appeared fine. I then reassembled it with the guts from a lifter from another cylinder, and reinstalled both lifters back into their original holes. Even with different lifter internals the noise remains on #4 exhaust.

I believe the noise is the exhaust valve hitting the hardened seat.

The machine shop that installed the hardened exhaust seats in my heads did a poor job. The stems on the exhaust valves were considerably lower than the intake stems. When I pointed this out they said they would fix it. I they took the easy way out. Instead of grinding the exhaust seats to sink the valves they just ground the stems of the intake valves to match the exhaust. I now wonder if the springs are tighter on the exhaust and contributing to the noise.

I have a stinking suspicion that if I were to swap the heads the noise would move to the other side of the engine.

Steve
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post #12 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 18th, 06, 04:22 AM
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Re: lifters wont pump up

First off, you will not get noise from a valve hitting a hardend seat ,, thats not what they are for... But the way you describe that they are set in the head makes me think that now they are closer to piston and there is a point in timing that the valve does get close to the valve pocket in the piston. Understand what I am saying? Valve is opening deeper from a deeper starting point in the cly.
The other thing I am thinking is that the seat not seated in head material all the way,,, is loose? and when the head heats up, it tends to drop out of the seat pocket and the valve will "tap" in back in? Just a theroy. If you KNOW of this,, you need to pull that head for inspection...The machinist should either have milled the seat pocket deeper or cut the sink valve seating area down more . You stated that the exhaust valve stems are lower? Visiabaly how much lower than the rest,,, thats how much closer you are to piston. Unless you have such a deep relief in the piston that it would never be a problem.... Think about this and decide for yourself.. You may want to look at the seat with the valve out and if it looks loose, I would present it to the head builder. And if it is loose in the pocket, he will have to remill that pocket and try to reset. If the pocket is too large now , he will probably try to go oversize seat.

Don
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 18th, 06, 07:19 PM
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Re: lifters wont pump up

Quote:
Originally Posted by zdld17
First off, you will not get noise from a valve hitting a hardend seat ,, thats not what they are for... But the way you describe that they are set in the head makes me think that now they are closer to piston and there is a point in timing that the valve does get close to the valve pocket in the piston. Understand what I am saying? Valve is opening deeper from a deeper starting point in the cly.
The exhaust valves are undeniably deeper into the combustion chamber than the intakes. I believe this was caused by the seats not being installed deep enough. I hope it will be possible to sink the valves some by grinding the seats.

I donít believe the valve is hitting the piston because when I turn down the rocker adjusting nut the engine develops the typical miss for a few seconds until the lifter bleeds off allowing the valve to seat. During the few seconds the engine is missing the valve is opening beyond normal and not touching the seat. For those few seconds the noise temporally stops.

I have read elsewhere of people having noise problems with the XE series cams. One fellow developed the noise after a head change. Another reported he solved the problem by correcting his valve train geometry with shorter pushrods.

I plan on pulling the heads next month and taking them to another machine shop to have them checked out.

Steve
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post #14 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 19th, 06, 06:17 PM
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Question Re: lifters wont pump up

You mean "shallower"??

To me, deeper means they are receeding into the heads!

Sticking up from the roof of the chambers more??

pdq67
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post #15 of 18 (permalink) Old Mar 20th, 06, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
 
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Thumbs up Re: lifters wont pump up

Update....

I called and spoke to COMP CAMS and a tech wanted me to put 8 - 10oz of mineral spirts in the moter and run it for 50 miles and then do an oil change. I dont think so!! I pulled the intake and problem solved. I replaced them with a new set of lifters Broke them in for 20 mins and no more noise. All in all i am still very happy with the cam, just wished it wouldn't have cost me and extra 100.00 bucks for the 2nd set of lifters and intake gasket set.
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