Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC - Team Camaro Tech
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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 20th, 06, 02:07 PM Thread Starter
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Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

Looking to change out the cam in my 63 Nova that has a 327 SBC. I've been playing around with a ton of cams in DesktopDyno2000 and I've narrowed it down to 3 possible choices. The car has a 3.08 rear differential but will eventually be changed to a 3.73 rear end with a 200-4R Overdrive. When I change out to 245/45R17 rear tires I will have a 2,453 RPM at 75mph with a locked torque converter. Thought is to go with a 2000 or 2200rpm stall. I'm looking to make this car a daily driver with great efficiency, great idle, yet still have balls!

Engine is a 327 SBC, Edelbrock 600cfm, Edelbrock 2101 Intake, 64cc heads with a 9.5:1 compression ratio

Anyways here is what I have now, an SSI 10312, its a Advertised 290/300, Duration at .050 is 224/234, Peaks are 355hp at 6500rpm/330 TQ at 3500rpm, 181HP/263TQ at 2500rpm

This cam is just is too lopey for a daily toy, I've got the Camaro so this 63 nova needs to be more practical!

So here are my thoughts, I'm leaning towards the Competition Cam SK12-230-2 (Xtreme Energy XE250H), 250/260 advertised, duration .050 of 206/212, peaks are 328HP at 5000rpms, 387 TQ at 3500rpms, 181HP/380TQ at 2500rpm

Comp states it 'Very strong torque, excellent mileage, smooth idle.' Looks like a great match for a car cruising at 2500rpm right? Plenty of torque for acceleration when using a 3.73 rear?

Ok other other two ideas are the
Summit K1101, 325 HP at 5000rpm, 385 TQ at 3500rpm, 178/374 at 2500rpm (252/262 advertised, duration .050 of 194/204)


and the
Summit K1102, 347 HP at 5500rpm, 383 TQ at 4000rpm, 171/358 at 2500rpm (262/272 advertised, duration .050 of 204/214)


What do you guys think? I am not expert at this, so looking for any and all comments!! Thanks

1969 Camaro - GM 2003 Electron Blue
Beck Racing 383 cu in 465HP Engine - Sean Murphy Inductions Stage 2 Quadrajet
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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 20th, 06, 02:33 PM
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Re: Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

The Comp and the two Summit cams you mentioned will have a smooth idle. The 224-234 is way too big. Of the ones you listed the Comp 206-212 is the best cam but also the most expensive.

You did not mention it but I have a Summit 214-224 in a Chevelle with a 350. Compression is too low at 8.3, 882 heads, Z/28 intake and 600 Holley. Rear is a 3.08 with 28 in tires, a powerglide and stock converter. Idle is about 750 with some "cam" sound. The car gets 16-17 gas mileage on mountain roads. Power is very acceptable with the cam pulling hard to 5500 rpm. I built the engine to put in the car with the intention of selling the car, so I bought the cheapest cam I could find. I was pleasantly surprised at the performance and drivability so I still have the car.

The Comp or the 204-214 is better suited to my needs but I did not want a stock sounding idle. I would not want anything larger than 215-220 at .050 for a daily driver.
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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 20th, 06, 03:05 PM
 
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Re: Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

I am running a 300/308 duration 515 lift in my 327 bored 30 over with 10.5 to 1 pistons and a glide with 4:11 ring, 462 64cc heads. It gets in the 1.96 60 foot times and really comes to life at 4 grand. Wish I would have went to the 280's dur range for my driving, but she sure sounds good. But I also only get 6-8 mpg.
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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 20th, 06, 05:17 PM
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Re: Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

Heck, with your later change's a solid lifter cam in the 268 to 272 or so range would be a dandy as would be the old Duntov, -097 cam that is almost as old as dirt!

Just use good springs like the Z-28, (-142), jobbers is all.

CC's 270S cam, Isky's Z-20 and Crower make's a small one too.

Don't be fooled b/c the old Duntov look's like a little-bitty bugger AND rightly so BUT it was made for the big hp, 283's and 340 and 360hp/327's back then.

AND I'm here to tell you that it will rpm about as high as you will have nerve enough to stick your foot in her!!

And fwiw, I would use Fel-pro's #1094, .015" shims to up your CR to about 9.75 or so too!! The closer you can get her to about 10 to 1, the better she will run and on GOOD pump gas too.

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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 20th, 06, 09:10 PM
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Smile Re: Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

I am running a similar combo as you are. I have found that it is very easy to over cam these engines. The best cams that I have found are solid cams, either the Crower or an Engle cam. I have yet to try it, but I am thinking of the Engle EP-22. I am currently running an Ultradyne Ultra-street Hydraulic Cam the 270/270 with .460/.460 lift, and I feel it is too large. I like the crower and engle cams as they seem to be more tailored to your compression and stall, which seems to be citical with 327's. The Isky also seems like a good cam to use. I have not looked at their hydraulic line, but they too seem to take into account the compression.

69 Camaro -originally a LM1 car. 327, Edelbrock E-streets, hooker, DUI performance distributors, ultradyne cam, stewart, TRW etc. Vintage Air, AGR steering, Corbeau GTSII seats, 700R4 TPI transmission, 12-bolt w/Eaton 4.11:1
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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 21st, 06, 06:54 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

Thanks TJS69,

I looked at the Isky 201257 and 201264 and although they were decent, the CompCam 12-230-2 seemed to be better than those.
I just now looked at the Crower line, 00902 and 00915 get beat by the Comp Cam above, as well as their 00238 (250 duration Mileage Performance) cam.
Also looked at their level 2 performance (267 duration) 00240 and it only does 160hp/337tq at 2500rpms, well below the CompCam 12-230-2 and 12-234-2. The solid series is designed for 2000-6000rpm range with lopey idle, and just can't give a decent torque at cruise 170hp/357tq compared to the CompCams.

1969 Camaro - GM 2003 Electron Blue
Beck Racing 383 cu in 465HP Engine - Sean Murphy Inductions Stage 2 Quadrajet
TCI Streetfighter 350 - 3.73:1 Posi 10 Bolt Rear - 12.6 sec qtr mile
69 Camaro and 63 Nova
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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 21st, 06, 12:16 PM
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Smile Re: Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

Brian,
What heads do you have ? I have the camel backs which really seem to choke the engine. I have to agree with PDQ that using a small cam with these heads is the way to go. Sure it is 60's technology but, that's when 327's were king ! Most cam manufactures use 350's for test mules and I believe the 327 is a totally different animal ! IMHO
Maybe a 350 HP cam is the way to go ? My 327 will not RPM over 5000 RPM ! I thought it was my fuel pump, changed it, and still won't go. I think it's the mismatched cam. I am running 4:11 gears and it still doesn't RPM !!

69 Camaro -originally a LM1 car. 327, Edelbrock E-streets, hooker, DUI performance distributors, ultradyne cam, stewart, TRW etc. Vintage Air, AGR steering, Corbeau GTSII seats, 700R4 TPI transmission, 12-bolt w/Eaton 4.11:1
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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 21st, 06, 04:28 PM
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Re: Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

May just be valve springs??

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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 21st, 06, 05:30 PM
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Re: Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

heads. they want heads. My 327 went from a 5000 rpm motor to a 6200 rpm motor with just a set of iron eagles. Don't know 'bout no "computer dyno" but she ran real good with a comp 270 (224 - .470) in a stick shift car.

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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 21st, 06, 05:42 PM
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Re: Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

I use the XE-256 in a 350 with a manual trans and a 3.00 rear end. It works really well as a driver. Not a rocket ship for the first 50 feet but with a q-jet it gets real good gas mileage. Your 327 isn't going to have the low speed of a 350 but you have much more gear in anything but OD. Try the XE256 I really think you will be happy.
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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 21st, 06, 05:53 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

This is all I got on the heads:
64cc iron heads with 2.02" (intake) and 1.60" (exhaust)
swirl-polished stainless steel valves with bronze guides

Figured out alot more though! Basically Cruise RPM isn't the most important for torque, I don't need butt loads of torque necessarily while in Overdrive, a good amount is fine. Whats more important is the torque curve when I step on the gas, the trans drops a gear and then I want acceleration, thus I need to be on that torque sweep when the engine rpm jumps up from the shift. Here is my results:
cruise at 55 - 1775rpm - Step on Gas - Jumps to 1:1 gearing, 2,649rpm all the way to 4334rpm at 90mph
cruise at 65 - 2100rpm - Step on Gas - Jumps to 1:1 gearing, 3,130rpm all the way to 4334rpm at 90mph
cruise at 75 - 2420rpm - Step on Gas - Jumps to 1:1 gearing, 3,612rpm all the way to 4334rpm at 90mph

This is with 3.73 Rear End Ratio and 255/45R17 rear tires

40mph is 4951rpm in 1st gear, drops to 2nd gear 3,024
65mph is 4914rpm in 2nd gear, drops to 3rd gear 3,130
105mph is 5,056rpm in 3rd gear, drops to 4rd at 3,388

So banging thru at full throttle I need to have a torque curve from 3000 to 5000 for best acceleration. Also when cruising at 55/65/75 the trans will jump into third at 2649/3130/3612 and need to accelerate up to 4334 if I wanted to get up to 90. Both those curves are in the 3000-5000 range, so finding a cam that fits the bill seems pretty straight forward:

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy 268H does great all the way from 2000-5200 rpm with 345 torque at cruise
Comp Cams Xtreme Energy 262H does great all the way from 2000-5200 rpm with 361 torque at cruise
Comp Cams Xtreme Energy 256H does great all the way from 2000-5000 rpm with 371 torque at cruise
Comp Cams Xtreme Energy 250H does great all the way from 2000-4700 rpm with 380 torque at cruise
Summit K1102 does great all the way from 2000 to 5000 rpm with 358 torque at cruise

The 256H (212 duration at .050) is listed as Strong torque thru low and mid-range, good idle
The 262H (218 duration at .050) is listed as Excellent response, good mid-range, noticeable idle.
The 268H (224 duration at .050) is listed as Great for street machines, largest cam for stock converter

If it was just a weekend toy like my Camaro I'd say 268H! But it looks like the 256H or 262H will be a better match for my intended purpose of this Nova.

btw the Factory 327/350 cam 3863151 doesn't play out well at all on desktopdyno, its has terrible results.

1969 Camaro - GM 2003 Electron Blue
Beck Racing 383 cu in 465HP Engine - Sean Murphy Inductions Stage 2 Quadrajet
TCI Streetfighter 350 - 3.73:1 Posi 10 Bolt Rear - 12.6 sec qtr mile
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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 21st, 06, 08:27 PM
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Re: Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

Is the sound of the idle important? If not go with the 256--If you want a slight "cam" sound go with the 262.

It very easy to play what if and run dyno sims all day long. The facts are (regardless of what the dyno sims say) there will be less than 20 ft lbs of torque( most likely at about 300 rpm higher for the larger cam)and most likely less than 15 horsepower between the two cams (also at about 300 higher peak for the larger cam). Any cam significantly larger than the 262 will be sluggish in a 327 off idle to about 2500 rpm with an auto trans. You could put a stall converter in but that would not be efficient as a daily driver.

So... it boils down to how you are wanting for the car to sound. Stock-256 A slightly rough idle-262.

Last edited by sleeper69; Nov 22nd, 06 at 05:53 AM.
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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 22nd, 06, 04:04 AM
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Re: Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

The old -151 cam really need's 11 to 1 CR. just like way back then in a 327 motor!

I daily drove one from 1200 miles from new for years in my L-48, 10 to 10.25 or so CR, 350SS motor back then.

Talk about a bottom to mid 2nd gear to the top of 3rd gear charge!

Pulled like a Freight-train!!

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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 06, 05:22 PM
 
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Re: Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

I think those cams may be a little too small for a true 9.5:1 engine on pump gas. Those cams are better suited for a 8.5:1 engine. If you don't mind lashing the valves once a year, try the Clevite 229-1998. Its a small solid with 219/228 @ .050 on a 114 LSA. Should do real well in a 327 w/ an overdrive. The Comp 262 XE will do well too for a hydraulic or the Summit K1103 at 214/224. You need a little duration with your compression to run pump gas safely. FWIW I run a 9.2:1 327 with a solid rated at 225 @.050 on 108 LSA with a 700R4 and 3.55 gears and it does fine with a 2200 RPM stall. For a daily driver a wider LSA will be better for mileage. The 114 LSA in the Clevite cam will give a very smooth idle and mileage and would be my pick for a daily driven 327.
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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old Nov 24th, 06, 07:38 PM
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Re: Help - Cam Advise Needed for my 327 SBC

Unless you have an overdriven 6-71 sitting on top, it ain't going to make 380 ft-lbs at 2500 rpms
A true 9.5:1 compression will be iffy on anything less than 93 octane with the XE250 or 256 cams in OD. From my own experience, if you use the 3.73's and 200r4, I would lean towards the 214/224 summit cam (works great in a 9.5-1 327), or one of the comp cams extreme 4x4 cams, like the 218/226@.050 grind. Camel hump heads don't have the modern style fast burn combustion chambers which makes them more detonation sensitive.

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