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Pertronix Distributor & Coil installation - 68 Camaro

20K views 60 replies 12 participants last post by  dave ray 
#1 ·
Hi Guys,

I know there are several post on this but I can't quiet find the one that applies to my question so I am posting it here. I'm working on my 68 Camaro and have decided to replace the factor set up with the Pertronix II Distributor & matching coil. My question is around the wiring. If I'm still running my factor harness. What do I need to do to get this thing running? The Pertronix directions that came with the dist and coil are very general. They basically say to just put the wires back the way you took them off of the original setup. However, I know from the other posts that something has to be modified since i'm going from Points to this set up. Any information would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Danny
 
#2 ·
Danny, I'm more familiar with the Pertronics Ignitor I and the Ignitor III modules but hopefully I can still be of help. With both the Ignitor I & III setups, the module must get full electrical system voltage rather than the lower voltage (7-9 volts) provided by the resistor wire to the original points in the distributor. Also without the points it is recommended you run full electrical system voltage to the + side of the coil.

One way to accomplish this is to add a relay that is triggered by the resistor wire which then switches full electrical system voltage via a new #14 or even better #12 wire (Red insulation makes sense for this new ignition power wire) from the horn relay bus bar to the coil + and distributor, you should add a 10 amp fuse or auto resetting circuit breaker in this new power wire to be safe. This same wire can be used to power an electric choke if you have one.

Another way is to insulate the end of the existing resistor wire and tuck it out of the way, then go down to the wiring block at the firewall and find that end of the resistor wire. Add a new #14 or #12 wire (Red insulation again makes sense for this new ignition power wire) which connects at the firewall connector to the existing resistor wire and run it to the coil + and distributor.

Myself, I like the relay method better as I find it an easier procedure and you are supplying the new ignition system with all new power wiring which can draw as much as 7 amps (at least the Ignitor III can, the others probably draw a bit less).

Hope this helps. :yes:
 
#3 ·
Good information thank you! So, do I need two separate 12v sources one going to the coil + and another one going to the distributor or is it the same one since the distributor + wire connects at the coil + anyway? Also, you threw me off a little when you said, use the resistor wire to trigger the relay. I'm not very familiar with relays so I was thinking of just tapping into a 12 volt source at the fuse box or wiper motor harness that is switched on when the key is turned to the on position. Will this work the same or bad idea and I need to go study up on relays? Thanks again for all the info

Danny
 
#5 ·
You can use the same full electrical system voltage power wire to power both the + side of the coil and the module in the distributor. As far as running a separate wire back into the fuse panel, that can be done, but there is a chance you'll starve the module of the proper voltage needed for it to function properly and prevent it from burning out. A relay is nothing more than an electric switch that gets switched on in this case by a low current trigger voltage (the old resistor wire in this case).

The relay will have four terminals on it that you wire up as follows;

1. The trigger power (your existing ignition system resistance wire).
2. A ground wire, connect it to any good ground point nearby.
3. A fused positive wire from your horn relay bus bar (power into the relay).
4. A positive wire that goes to your coil and distributor (power out of the relay).

Items 3 & 4 can be interchanged as they are nothing more than a SPST switch.

Items 1 & 2 need to be wired per instructions with the relay, but all relays are a standard wiring scheme and they even sell a relay connector with a 6" pigtail of wire if you prefer to go that route. Any more questions just ask?
 
#6 ·
When I ran with the Pertronix I kept the same wires on the coil that were on when I had points. I'm doing the same with the Crane XR-i. http://www.cranecams.com/uploads/instructions/9000-1700c_.pdf
Mark, the Pertronix modules need full electrical system voltage to run properly and live a long and happy life. If you starve them for voltage and current (anything less than 12 volts), they will eventually burn-out/brown-out much earlier than they will when supplied the proper power. Many (perhaps most, who can say for sure) of the Pertronix failures are due to improper installations with the module being starved for voltage and current. The ignition coil however doesn't matter as far as causing an early failure. It will work with the lower resistance wire voltage and current just fine (but it provides less spark voltage when powered that way), however it will work much better with the full electrical system voltage producing a hotter spark.

Remember how an original points ignition distributor is wired, with the key in the run position the coil and points saw resisted voltage and current to preserve points life and minimize arcing of the points. But while the key is held in the crank position, full battery voltage and current was sent to the coil and the points from the starter solenoid supplying a hotter spark for the engine to fire off easier during cold starts.

The Crane system I can't comment on as I've not had any first hand experience with them.
 
#7 ·
Sounds good, I think I will go the relay route. Doesn't sound too hard and Pertronix actually makes one. Dumb question, if I'm installing the relay near the coil area, then why not just put the 12 volts right off the battery instead of the horn block thing? thx again!
 
#11 ·
Because the alternator senses the electrical loads of the vehicle from the horn relay bus bar, not the battery. If you go to the battery instead, the ignition system will work BUT the alternator won't see that extra load and won't be able to increase it's output to make up for that extra load. End result the battery will not be fully charged by the alternator as it should.
 
#9 ·
The easiest way to install the Pertronix Distributor & Coil is connect the red wire from the distributor to the + terminal of the coil. Connect the black wire from the distributor to the - terminal of the coil. Then look at the middle of your fuse box. In between the two rows of fuses you have a row connectors for Ignition, Acc, and Battery. Run a red 12 gauge wire from the Ignition connector to the + terminal of the coil. Now you have a switched power source for the coil.
 
#10 ·
This is exactly what I did with mine. It works flawlessly. But, it did take a bit of creativity getting that ign wire through to the engine compartment. Luckily, my car is an ac car and the ac harness uses a huge rubber grommet to pass the wires through a large hole. I simply poked a hole in it close to the wires and fed my wire through. Using the relay would solve this dilemma by allowing you to use the existing ign wire as the trigger. Hot supply wire from the Horn relay. Good luck with your pertronix setup. Im happy with mine.
 
#15 ·
I would NOT run a full 12 volts to that unit, I'd leave the resistor were in place.

But, if you must use the full 12 volts, look on the fuse panel for a terminal marked IGN or IGNITION. Check it to ground with ignition key in both start and run, should have volts in BOTH positions. When you get that resolved, run a 12 gauge wire out through a convenient place on the firewall, frm that fuse box terminal, to the positive side of the coil, and take the stock feed wire(s) off the coil, tape them off, and stick them back into the wiring loom. This will give you the full 12 volts you need to blow the PerTronix into next week, without butchering the stock loom, and not having to run a very unreliable relay.

I suggest spark plug gaps of NO MORE than .032, stock plugs work, good wire sets work (Borg-Warner 7 or 8 mm "Select" is good).

Also, IF that coil is one of their epoxy filled coils, I strongly recommend changing it to one of their oil filled round coils, and mount it with the wire end UP, NOT laying on its side.

You are some place near me, I presume, I am in Yerington, if you need hands-on help.
 
#16 ·
This project has me stumped - I installed the distributor(flamethrower) and coil(0.6 ohm flamethrower II) using Doug's method, which seemed like what the instructions said. I ran the + from the distributor to + on the coil and the - wire from the distributor to the - on the coil. Next I ran a wire from the IGN port in the fuse box to the + on the coil and verified that it is switched power and I was getting a little over 12V at the coil with the key in the On position. Next, I removed the original green wire from the - on the coil and covered it. I removed the white resistance wire from the coil + and covered it as well. So I now have three wires going to the + on coil (brown wire, 12V from fusebox, red wire from Dist) and one wire (black from Dist) going to the - side of coil.

So then I tried to start it - the engine cranks but nothing. I pulled the coil wire at the distributor then held it close to a ground source while my girlfriend cranked it and I still get no visible spark. What am I missing? Was I suppose to do something with the starter wiring? What other things can I check? stumped and frustrated :/
 
#17 ·
I should also mention I was getting spark when the old points distributor and mallory coil were in it. Then one day it just stopped sparking which prompted this upgrade project. Is there a fuse or something I could have blown? any other help would be appreciated.
 
#18 ·
Your problem is that the wire from the IGN port in the fuse box to the + on the coil you ran is probably only getting power when the key is in the run position, not while the key is in the cranking position. This is another reason why using the relay triggered by the original resistor wire is in my opinion and from my experience the best way to go. You get full electrical system voltage to the distributor module and coil both when the key is in the crank and the run positions. And you get the full electrical system voltage and the current the Pertronix module was designed to work with, period.

Dave mentions he wouldn't run full electrical system voltage to a Pertronix module and coil and that he wouldn't run "a very unreliable relay". These relays are used in so many places in most, if not all automobiles today and they just plain don't have reliability issues. Just why Dave thinks he knows more than the manufacturers about what a product needs for power, I would seriously question. How about you contact Pertronix and ask them, they manufactured the product and they will be the only ones to stand behind if it fails during the warranty period?

I will agree with Dave that the plug gap should not be opened up any more than to .035" (yes, Dave wrote .032" but a .003 difference isn't much of a difference) as you have nothing to gain by doing so. Bottom line is that I have nothing to win or lose in this discussion/debate, I've offered my help, based on my knowledge and years of experience. Anyone can chose to use it or take whatever other path they choose, it doesn't really matter to me. But I caution you against doing other than that which the manufacturer of the product specifies as far as the power requirement of their product, and if you do take Dave's advice and choke it of the power it needs, please don't trash the product WHEN it fails because that will be due to Dave's BAD advice and your BAD decision to follow his advice. I wish you the best whatever you decide to do. :beers:
 
#20 ·
Your problem is that the wire from the IGN port in the fuse box to the + on the coil you ran is probably only getting power when the key is in the run position, not while the key is in the cranking position. This is another reason why using the relay triggered by the original resistor wire is in my opinion and from my experience the best way to go. You get full electrical system voltage to the distributor module and coil both when the key is in the crank and the run positions. And you get the full electrical system voltage and the current the Pertronix module was designed to work with, period.
I just installed mine about a month ago. I used the relay. To me, that's the only way to do it. Pertronix without questions needs a full 12 volts according to Pertronix. I ran a 12v feed wire off the starter and used the original resistor wire for the relay trigger. The one thing that tripped me up was the relay I used. They reversed the colors on their wiring diagram. It ran like I had a couple of plug wires disconnected. I'm surprised it ran at all. Once I looked closely at the relay pin numbers I figured it out. I reversed them and it ran perfectly after that.
x3
 
#19 ·
I just installed mine about a month ago. I used the relay. To me, that's the only way to do it. Pertronix without questions needs a full 12 volts according to Pertronix. I ran a 12v feed wire off the starter and used the original resistor wire for the relay trigger. The one thing that tripped me up was the relay I used. They reversed the colors on their wiring diagram. It ran like I had a couple of plug wires disconnected. I'm surprised it ran at all. Once I looked closely at the relay pin numbers I figured it out. I reversed them and it ran perfectly after that.
 
#21 ·
Here's a standard 4 terminal relay wiring diagram showing three lamps being controlled by a relay.

Terminal #30 is where your fused electrical system power feed goes into the relay.
Terminal #85 goes to ground or (-) post of battery for negative ground systems.
Terminal #86 goes to your trigger power (the resistor wire in this case).
Terminal #87 goes to your load (the Pertronix module and coil (+) in this case).

http://www.novitatech.com/?q=sites/...large/public/products/images/RL44-Diagram.jpg

 
#22 ·
Nice simple explanation that should answer any question. My problem was the socket that came with the relay I used. Two wires in the socket were reversed and I trusted their color coding... I should have known to check the actual relay pin-out first.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Thanks Guys, based on all your advice, I'm going to go ahead with plan A and use the relay that I bought. I was going to tap into the power from the horn relay as one of you suggested but then I saw this pic on the internet. It looks like the horn gets its power from the junction block that is located behind the battery. Since I'm closer to it there anyway, can I tap into the junction block instead? Will the alternator still be able to read the load like it does at the horn bus?
 
#26 ·
Why not go off the starter like I did? It's a lot closer to the distributor which means a lot less wiring to dress. I went off the large battery lug which means I have enough wire gauge to go to a bus bar for other electronics if I need it at some point.




Looks like some are reinventing the wheel.
Yes. Pertronix. I would reason to bet the integrated circuits they are using now are more sensitive than the IC chips in the one you bought 20 years ago. I'll go with Pertronix suggestions including the fuse.
 
#31 ·
Glad you were not one of those to report a failed product due to installing other than how the manufacturer instructed, it just adds more credit to the quality of the product the manufacturer provided to you.

Those that follow manufacturers instructions are not reinventing the wheel, those that go their own way and do not follow manufacturer instructions are reinventing.

Curious if you can point to what you read about Pertronix III product being manufactured by Crane, I'd enjoy "reading" that for myself?
 
#28 ·
I should have looked at Crane. I'd much rather have gone that route and not added wiring that I now have to figure out how to hide...
 
#29 ·
Much cheaper too. I got mine from Amazon. 2 day shipping. Do a search for Crane. I had a post on my install as I had a few issues. I used to have points and a MSD box so the wiring was jumbled around. You also have to cut the screws down on the module in the dist as they hit the advance. Once I figured out what was originally stock it went smooth and works great so far. A lot of people do like the Pertronix and have been using it for a long time. Just a matter of preference I guess.
 
#36 ·
sierra1boy, I just caught up on your thread. If you have everything wired as you say and you don't have a spark when grounding coil wire Then I have some bad news. The ignition module is bad. If you have 12 volts from the new wire ran from the ignition terminal to the + side of the coil then it will not make any difference using a relay.. Listen try one more thing, have your girlfriend crank the engine while you have your multimeter on the end of the wire at the coil. Even take it off the coil to do the check. If you are getting 12 volts then it has to be the module bad. Check out the reviews from the ignition module. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pnx-d500700/overview/ I ran the power wire for my MSD box from the ignition terminal with no problems since 1997.
 
#37 ·
Okay so I think I solved at least this problem - I went ahead and removed the wire I had tapped into the fuse box and installed the relay. I tapped into the junction block behind the battery and used the resistance wire to trigger the relay. The first time I tried it I got no spark using my coil wire grounding test, then on a whim I decided to put the charger on the battery at 10 amps and cranked it with the coil wire connected. It tried to fire up! So, I now think that coil and distributor need a fully charged battery or my coil grounding test sucks. Either, way I tried to fire it up again this morning and got it to rotate on its own a few times until I got a backfire through the carburetor and a balloon screech sound. I'm now going to investigate the carb mounting, I think maybe a vacuum leak now but not sure. At least I think the electrical issue is solved - thanks guys!
 
#43 ·
Yes, ignition switch provides power to the resistance wire which triggers/switches the relay on. Relay then provides power to the coil and ignition module which comes into the relay from the horn relay/buss bar.
 
#44 ·
Thanks for you help; one more question, the wire on the coil + terminal that leads from there to the starter, does that wire remain there or does it connect to the relay with the resistance wire? As of now both the resistance wire and the wire leading to the starter both are on the coil + terminal.
 
#45 ·
If the resistance wire has power both while the key is in the crank position and in the run position, the wire from the starter solenoid to the coil can be eliminated (I believe this should be the case but check with a test light). The wire from the starter solenoid to the coil provided full battery voltage to the coil while cranking with a points style ignition system and then reduced voltage to the coil Via the resistance wire only while in the run position so the points would last longer but engine starts would be easier/faster with a hotter full battery voltage spark while cranking/starting.
 
#48 ·
Here is the diagram I used for mine. Like Scott said though, don't trust the color coding. Two of the wire colors were reversed on my brand new relay pigtail.

 
#52 ·
Not sure what the Pertronix relay kit provides or how they instruct you to wire it up so can't comment on that but the wiring diagrams already provided in this thread work fine with a standard relay and don't need a diode.
 
#55 ·
These were the instructions that came with mine. Not sure this is the same relay or not. Maybe you are using a different one.

https://www.carid.com/images/pertronix/products/pdf/2001-installation-instructions.pdf
Nick, thanks for posting the instructions and wiring diagram from Pertronix. After seeing where they put the diode it makes more sense, but I have two classic cars, one with the earlier Pertronix with the magnetic ring that goes under the rotor (no power relay on this setup as it isn't necessary) and the other with an Ignitor III which does have a power relay setup, but not the Pertronix relay kit. I just used a standard 30 amp relay and it shuts down the ignition just fine when the key is turned off. I am running a solid state external voltage regulator but that shouldn't make a difference.

A diode is a one way valve, allows current to flow in one direction but not the opposite, prevents a circuit from being back fed. It might be that the difference is if the car has a factory GEN light vs a factory AMP gauge, mine is the latter?

Robert, does your car have a factor AMP gauge or a GEN light?

Also, either way, let us know if adding the diode makes a difference?
 
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