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post #16 of 41 (permalink) Old Apr 20th, 12, 09:56 AM
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Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

Great information. Will come in handy later this summer when I hope to get my top system back in order.

67 'Bird vert 455 JW TH400 KRE d-port 310 cfm heads H-beam rods Comp Cam 305-AH-8 cam w/1.65 rockers Ford 9" 3.55 Detroit Locker M/T Radials 31x18x15 on Convo Pro 15x15s
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post #17 of 41 (permalink) Old Apr 20th, 12, 10:47 AM Thread Starter
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Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

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Originally Posted by 67 455 Bird ragtop View Post
Great information. Will come in handy later this summer when I hope to get my top system back in order.
I think it will be useful to many people. I was so damn intimidated by the whole thing, I don't know why but I didn't have a clue and it sat until the very last minute putting this car together over years, it was this foreign planet out there that I didn't want to go to. Hopefully these photos will open up this world to others so they don't feel like I did was all I wanted to do.

Brian

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post #18 of 41 (permalink) Old Apr 20th, 12, 11:03 AM
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Talking Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

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... I was so damn intimidated by the whole thing, I don't know why but I didn't have a clue ...

Brian
Very little of this is anywhere near the "Rocket Surgery" most consider it to be

I used to have to fix all this stuff because I had to (due to no-body else doing it and/or no $$$) - now I usually do it because I want to (okay, sometimes that ugly '$$$' thingy still rears it's nasty little head also ...)

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post #19 of 41 (permalink) Old Apr 20th, 12, 12:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

Ok, off to the cylinders!

A number of people requested a "demystification" of the cylinders. Well, I was going to toss them and I am glad I didn't. I certainly don't have any knowledge in the subject so what you see is what you get.

Starting with photo B you will see that cut a slit around the tube that makes up the cyl. I should have taken a better photo before I did this but was so damn excited to cut it open and see what was inside.

It is crimped at the top, pretty tough to reproduce this at home. I am thinking that you could possible make a pair of dies that could do this in a vice. But it's asking for a lot, pretty tough to pull it off if you ask me.



Photo C is a close up of the "piston" in the cyl.



Photo D shows me prying the top of the tube off the upper piece. And E shows what the piece looks like when off.




And G shows the assy overall. There is no "F" photo so don't think I there is one missing. I messed up when I was putting the letters on them.



Photo H shows how the tube would go back onto the upper piece if you wanted to try crimping it.



To be continued......

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post #20 of 41 (permalink) Old Apr 20th, 12, 12:35 PM Thread Starter
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Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

continued from previous post....

I cut the bottom of the tube off so it can be seen.(photo I) The hose hooks to the side of that "donut" area inside. The nut and then end of the rod goes down into that area in the middle of the donut when it goes all the way down. This is one thing I wonder about, if you were to cut the tube off like I did and re-crimp it, it's going to be a quarter inch (or so) shorter, will this interfere with the operation of the cylinder? Photo J shows the two side by side, will the shortening effect it, I am thinking not, but I don't know.




Photo K shows the piston and the O ring seal.



The top piece of the cylinder shows a snap ring that needs to be removed to get the seal out as seen in photo L. The seal is an odd one, it's like a hollow washer with a plastic like washer inside. I am assuming this is needed for the high pressure that it is subjected to.



In photo L you can also see the O ring that goes around the top of it to seal the tube when it is crimped on.

I don't know guys, if you are willing to try rebuilding one, you are tougher than me. I would still buy new ones and spend that time on getting the car done, it's almost summer!

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post #21 of 41 (permalink) Old Apr 20th, 12, 12:52 PM
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Thumbs up Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
... one thing I wonder about, if you were to cut the tube off like I did and re-crimp it, it's going to be a quarter inch (or so) shorter, will this interfere with the operation of the cylinder? Photo J shows the two side by side, will the shortening effect it, I am thinking not, but I don't know.


...
Years ago there was a guy in Santa Ana, CA that 'rebuilt' these cylinders for many of the local dealers of Cadillacs, Olds, Chevy and many others - he used to chuck them in a lathe and turn the crimped end off and then re-roll the end closed when finished inside.
IIRC the cutter bit he used removed only @1/8 or slightly more to get the crimp to release the top. Probably just that little 'curl' piece in your photos ...
I would hazard to guess he did literally thousands of them ( I know I bought nearly 100 from him and furnished him with some cores from time to time) and they worked just like OEM when re-installed
I'm sure he's long-gone by now as he was in his 60~70's then ...

I would say, that knowing the amount of push rod sticking out of the OEMs when installed is in the 1/2" + area - and that the cylinder(s) still have @1" of travel left when extended with the top, that it should/would most likely not effect a thing

Sooooo - now one of us just needs to give it a try
You go ahead

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post #22 of 41 (permalink) Old Apr 20th, 12, 01:05 PM Thread Starter
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Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

Cool, when I cut my end off I didn't know exactly how it would work out. After cutting and seeing it apart I did see how I could have cut it JUST on the edge of the crimped area and only removed a quarter inch of length. But again, didn't know if this would effect things or not.

Brian

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post #23 of 41 (permalink) Old Apr 20th, 12, 01:23 PM
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Unhappy Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

Just 'Google Earthed' where his shop was (off 1st and Flower) and it's newer buildings
One of the best old-school Radiator* shops was right next to him ...

I would imagine you could find a local machinist that could chuck them up and cut lip off for you.
Then he could roll the end closed again if he has a good tooling collection

* = Now the only Great radiator guy I know is in Lampasas Texas on 281 at 183
Good wrecking yard just south of town on 183 also

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post #24 of 41 (permalink) Old Apr 20th, 12, 01:30 PM Thread Starter
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Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

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Originally Posted by Vintage 68 View Post
Just 'Google Earthed' where his shop was (off 1st and Flower) and it's newer buildings
One of the best old-school Radiator* shops was right next to him ...

I would imagine you could find a local machinist that could chuck them up and cut lip off for you.
Then he could roll the end closed again if he has a good tooling collection

* = Now the only Great radiator guy I know is in Lampasas Texas on 281 at 183
Good wrecking yard just south of town on 183 also
Yep the "radiator shop" has changed hasn't it! If you had a radiator shop in this area twenty years ago you had better have widened your repertoire or you are now out of business.

Brian

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post #25 of 41 (permalink) Old Apr 20th, 12, 01:33 PM
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Angry Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

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Yep the "radiator shop" has changed hasn't it!

Brian
Try calling around for someone to do a 1952 Farmall "Super-C" 'clean and rod-out' - you'll get a lot of 'dial tone' replies
But "Dave" will say - 'No problem, UPS it to me and I'll have it out in a few days'

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post #26 of 41 (permalink) Old Apr 24th, 12, 09:30 PM
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Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
...The top piece of the cylinder shows a snap ring that needs to be removed to get the seal out as seen in photo L. The seal is an odd one, it's like a hollow washer with a plastic like washer inside. I am assuming this is needed for the high pressure that it is subjected to.


John, is this the seal that people are talking about replacing in the older thread that you linked to? On that thread, Kent H referred to this as a "packing gland" (sounds like something the doctor examines when he asks you to cough ). Same thing as what is in the picture? How do you get it out without completely destroying it? It might be worth a shot on mine, since IIRC they are leaking around the shaft seal.

If I have to buy replacements, does anyone make a quality set that look / perform just like the originals? USA made would be a plus. I hate putting anything non-original back on this particular car, even if they are not easily visible.

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post #27 of 41 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 12, 10:11 AM
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Thumbs up Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

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... is this the seal that people are talking about replacing in the older thread that you linked to?
... Kent H referred to this as a "packing gland" ... Same thing as what is in the picture?
... How do you get it out without completely destroying it? It might be worth a shot on mine, since IIRC they are leaking around the shaft seal.

If I have to buy replacements, does anyone make a quality set that look / perform just like the originals? USA made would be a plus. I hate putting anything non-original back on this particular car, even if they are not easily visible.
Tom;
that is a 'Packing' seal.
They are very common and have been used for many-many-many years on all sorts of hydraulic, air and steam applications to 'pack' the stuffing area around a shaft to prevent leaks.
Most common location in your home would be the Stop-Cocks (no more Doctor jokes please ) or spigots under the sink or outside your house.
(You'll probably find a quite a few still around your house or work if you start to check water or steam valves and other common devices )

I vary rarely can get one out of the packing pocket without destroying it ...

I keep a pretty good supply of the string/rope packing around as I commonly need it when working on the home, the boats (which reminds me, I need to replace it this year in the MasterCraft ) trucks/tractors and other places to replace worn or leaking packings.
I keep both the Graphite (older) and the Teflon (newer) type around. You can find this stuff in packages at just about every hardware or plumbing stores in the world - I've even bought it in Europe and Asia ...
It commonly comes in smaller packages at places like Ace and Home Depot/Lowes - but you can find larger spools of it at plumbing supply houses.
Packages will often look like these - Click image for larger version

Name:	Packing Graphite and Teflon.jpg
Views:	130
Size:	64.5 KB
ID:	28115

As far as the two (2) type and their 'best' use ...
I tend to stick with the Graphite for uses where a shaft/output rotates in the packing and go with Teflon for uses where the shaft slides through the packing - think of stuff like a water valve stem, propeller shaft or water pump shaft as the common 'rotating' uses and hydraulic piston shafts as the common 'sliding' use ...

O-rings may be an option for some - IF, you can find one that can stretch over the top mount and still be viable once installed.
I did once find some fantastic 'Viton' type O-rings I used to do a couple of replacements on some 'vert piston shafts - but they were hard to get over the upper pin-mount head on the shaft and, since the vehicles are long-gone, I can't really tell you how lasting the repair was ...

Hope this helps.

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post #28 of 41 (permalink) Old Apr 25th, 12, 10:21 AM
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Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

Thanks for the info, John. Yes, I am familiar with the graphite type material, as I have been fighting an outside spigot that insists on leaking around the stem, in spite of repeated efforts by me to repack the graphite rope around it. I finally gave up and swapped the spigot valve assembly from the seldom used front faucet. Hopefully I will have better luck using the teflon stuff on my vert top cylinders.

So, do I just remove the clip and pry out the old seal / washer, and then scrape out the old material? I assume that I will have to push as much of the teflon packing into the area as I can and try to reuse the old "washer".

Can I hook the cylinders up to the pump and test them without installing them back in the car? That would seem like the best way to go so that I don't waste a lot of time wrestling them back into the car, only to see them leak again.

Thanks for the help!

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post #29 of 41 (permalink) Old Oct 6th, 12, 12:13 PM Thread Starter
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Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

I drug this thread back up because I wanted to say that without a doubt I only "demystified" the pump/motor and didn't "teach" a damn thing! LOL, my pump has been leaking and I have had a hard time trying to figure out what the heck went wrong. The nearest I can tell is it's the armature rust that is killing me. Whether I can fix it or not by polishing the shaft I don't know.
I bought the new seal kit and installed it and it still leaks so I am going to be trying to polish the shaft and see what that does, darn it!

Brian

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post #30 of 41 (permalink) Old Oct 6th, 12, 11:02 PM Thread Starter
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Re: "Basics of Basics" Pump/motor disassembly and rebuild.

I disassembled the pump and motor, the motor was full of fluid! I have to believe it was the shaft at the seal. It had some pitting, as did the other armature from my extra motor. I put it in a drill and sanded the armature with 400, then 1000 and hope it did it. I also cleaned up the edge of the reservoir just so it got a good seal, it looked like it was leaking there too. As I put it together I saw that the reservoir seal was weird in that it didn't seat down nice without a bunch of work, maybe that is where I went wrong before too? I don't know, all I know is after putting it together and testing it, no leaks. But I had that last time too, until the next day. So I will see, cross your fingers for me.

Brian

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1948 Chevy pickup.
2003 Dodge Caravan
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