I'm going the pro touring route with the 67 I just bought. The suspension will be the first task. I'm currently looking at tall spindles on to help the geometry issues, but can't decide on the rest. I will track the car from time to time, but not race it. It will mainly be a cruiser, but I want it to handle awesome. I see my options as:

Tall spindles, tubular control arms, springs or coil overs
Hotchkis TVS system
Full air ride system (not thrilled about having to mount all the periferrals with this setup)
Heidts or DSE rear 4-link kit
Subframe connectors

Do coil overs provide a handling advantage over a performance shock and spring?

Do the rear 4-link kits really make that much of a handling improvement? Are there things that can be done with the existing rear suspention to get the handling very close to those expensive bolt in systems?

I want it to handle very well, but I don't want to throw money at things that really don't make a difference.

Thanks for the input!

Do not forget about the Guldstrand mod to your existing upper a-arm set-up. It is simply redrilling new mounting locations for your upper a-arms so you can get suficient camber for alignment purposes. Some people, cut off the mounting bracket and reweld it to the frame in a more correct position.

Do you need to do the Guldstrand mod if you put on tubular upper and lower control arms with ATS tall spindles? That is pretty much the route I've decided to go on the front, I just don't know if it's worth going with coil overs up there.

The rear suspension mods have me confused on bang for the buck handling gains.

For a mainly driven street car IMO:

Keep the rear leaf springs, update with Hotchkis, DSE or Global West.

You can probably keep your stock spindles and get away with the g-mod in your case, however, the ATS spindles with the C5 Touring Classic Brakes is an awesome upgrade. Especially when combined with a Global West or SpeedTech UCA.
Don't worry about tubular LCAs if your stock ones are in OK condition. They don't improve geometry, and they don't improve weight. Just replace the Ball Joints and install new Delrin (Del-a-lum) bushings.

IMO some of the coil over systems are plain awesome. I especially want to know more about the ATS system. However, the spring rates of the bolt in replacement aren't strong enough to make you happy. I'd stick with a hotchkis, DSE or globalwest front spring to match the rear leafs. Don't forget to get a matched set of shocks, Bilsteins seem to be a common fav.

Absolutely on the subframe connectors global west or hotchkis have nice stuff. Don't forget new solid subframe bushings.

Don't forget about a steering upgrade. Don't get fooled into a rack and pinion with a stock subframe. Look at the ATS box or the Lee Box.

If you do these mod's, you'll be AMAZED at how well your car will drive.
Do some research here using the search feature, also check out pro-touring.com

Good luck.

Do you need to do the Guldstrand mod if you put on tubular upper and lower control arms with ATS tall spindles? That is pretty much the route I've decided to go on the front, I just don't know if it's worth going with coil overs up there.

The rear suspension mods have me confused on bang for the buck handling gains.

no need to gmod with afx tall spindle and tubular uca from speetech or global west. (most other tubular CAs don't change geometry)

Heres the route I went after talking in depth about the supension with Tyler@ATS, he said unless your going to spend allot of time on the track you dont need to do anymore than a Cat 5 set of rear springs from GW. In tests these were so colse on track time with the DSE rear Quada-Link it wasnt worth it for the street other than the "cool" factor. If your looking to replace the rear than go all the way and go with Lateral Dynamics. As far as the front I went with GW upper and lower tubular control arms, with GW coil overs. When I bought the coil over front ATS's wasnt out yet but if I were to buy now I would go with ATS's front coil over. That said I installed Hotchkis's front springs but did not like the height so I pulled them and went front coil over. I did not go with the GM as it is not needed with GW's upper control arms (IIRC) DSE's front arms are another choice. I just like ATS's quality and Tylers taking time to help and answer ANY questions I have/had. In my opinion you can not beat ATS's cusomer service. I did go with DSE's mini tub kit though but still have the rear leafs, Cat 5 GW's. I also went with ATS's spindles as they just cant be beat and with all of the different front brake mfg's Tyler works with you can find some to fit any budget. Call Tyler at ATS he WILL set you straight.

MStennes,

Sounds like you've done very close to what I want to do. Do you have any before and after experience with the mini-tub? I am wondering if it actually hurts handling. What size rear tires are you running? Any pics?

OK....I just finished doing what you are about to start. Here is the short answer. For optimum performance, spend the big dough and just buy DSE's front subframe kit. It'll cost you about $7,000. For the next best thing (which is what I did), just get DSE's coil over conversion kit. That kit MAKES you relocate the mounting points on the upper a-arm mounts (which is what happens with the Guldstrand mod), giving less negative camber. I also bought their upper and lower a-arms. The total for parts was in the high teens, and I'll tell you it works great. On the rear, I think that DSE quadra link kit is hard to beat, but again we are talking bucks...like $4,000. Do not go with a cheaper 4-link that only bolts in. The weld in kits will prove themselves in the long run. I went with DSE drop leafs, heavy shackle kit, and koni shocks. And finally, YES you should run subframe connectors if you have any HP's under the hood, but again, I would go with a weld in application, NOT a total bolt on kit.

One last final note.....you don't want tall spindles. I can't remember exactly why, but if you want to know the beef, call the guys over at DSE...they really know their stuff.

OK....I just finished doing what you are about to start. Here is the short answer. For optimum performance, spend the big dough and just buy DSE's front subframe kit. It'll cost you about $7,000. For the next best thing (which is what I did), just get DSE's coil over conversion kit. That kit MAKES you relocate the mounting points on the upper a-arm mounts (which is what happens with the Guldstrand mod), giving less negative camber. I also bought their upper and lower a-arms. The total for parts was in the high teens, and I'll tell you it works great. On the rear, I think that DSE quadra link kit is hard to beat, but again we are talking bucks...like $4,000. Do not go with a cheaper 4-link that only bolts in. The weld in kits will prove themselves in the long run. I went with DSE drop leafs, heavy shackle kit, and koni shocks. And finally, YES you should run subframe connectors if you have any HP's under the hood, but again, I would go with a weld in application, NOT a total bolt on kit.

One last final note.....you don't want tall spindles. I can't remember exactly why, but if you want to know the beef, call the guys over at DSE...they really know their stuff.

No offense here but you dont need to buy DSE's front sub unless you have allot of money to burn for bragging rights, I have nor have the guys at ATS ever seen a front sub frame fail. Its not that hard to take it clean up the welds and reweld them for uniformimty. If you notice on Mark Stielow's Camaro X he used the original front sub frame. The only reason to change out your front sub is to run a wider front tire, and the stocker can be modified to run a wider tire. DSE's rear is a good system it just doesnt like to be lowered or squated. If your going to do that much work than go with Lateral Dynamics it is the best rear period. Unless your going to race your car or want cruise night/car show bragging rights you will be more than happy with rear leafs like GW's Cat 5's. Hell I will bet a weeks pay unless your a professional driver you wont be able to use the other rear suspensions to their fullest. I dont have my car back on the road yet but I'm running a 305 rear and a 255 front I dont want to get into the pushing a wider tire wants to do. The mini tubs have been a pain in the ass but then my 69 is a convertable. The top equipment addes a few twists. I do agree the bolt in no mod 4 links are a waste of money more for bragging, you just have to comprimise to much for a bolt in. On my front we ground the welds and rewelded it, its running a Uni Steer R&P GW's upper and lower control arms with a GW coilover, if I were doing it again I would go with ATS's but it wasnt out when I did mine, with the GW's I dont think you need to do the GM mod but who knows? You dont want to run tall spindles the best you can get are ATS's front spindles. No I dont work ATS I just did allot of reaseach and asked allot of questions from users to dealers to the engineers.
Hope this helps

I did a lot of research prior to putting together the suspension package for the OneLapCamaro project. There are a lot of options and even more opinions so it can take time to detemine what is right for YOUR application. For the OLC project we needed a combination that would be equally capable on the road and on the track and we wanted something that was purpose built for performance before anything else.

At the end of the day we chose ATS for the front suspension and Lateral Dynamics for the rear.

The ATS Chicane-LM front suspension utilizes a stock front sub with a coil over conversion, tubular CA's, AFX spindles, and a Lee Engineering 670 series PS box, Baertracker adjustable outer tie rod ends. We completely rewelded the original sub and in our case we used Penske double adjustable shocks and AP Racing brakes. We are working on an adjustable sway bar to finish it off. We looked at several of the aftermarket subs and were not happy with the steering geometry on any of the rack layouts (bumpsteer concerns). I would strongly recommend that you give Tyler at ATS a call.

The Lateral Dynamics 3-Link is simply the best possible rear suspension available today. It is labor intensive although the installation was no more difficult that doing a weld in subframe connectors. Admittedly it is not for everyone but it is the best.

Whatever you decide it has to be right for your car, you goals, and your budget. Do your homework and deal with a vendor that you are comfortable with.

Good Luck,
James
www.OneLapCamaro.com

I did a lot of research prior to putting together the suspension package for the OneLapCamaro project. There are a lot of options and even more opinions so it can take time to detemine what is right for YOUR application. For the OLC project we needed a combination that would be equally capable on the road and on the track and we wanted something that was purpose built for performance before anything else.

At the end of the day we chose ATS for the front suspension and Lateral Dynamics for the rear.

The ATS Chicane-LM front suspension utilizes a stock front sub with a coil over conversion, tubular CA's, AFX spindles, and a Lee Engineering 670 series PS box, Baertracker adjustable outer tie rod ends. We completely rewelded the original sub and in our case we used Penske double adjustable shocks and AP Racing brakes. We are working on an adjustable sway bar to finish it off. We looked at several of the aftermarket subs and were not happy with the steering geometry on any of the rack layouts (bumpsteer concerns). I would strongly recommend that you give Tyler at ATS a call.

The Lateral Dynamics 3-Link is simply the best possible rear suspension available today. It is labor intensive although the installation was no more difficult that doing a weld in subframe connectors. Admittedly it is not for everyone but it is the best.

Whatever you decide it has to be right for your car, you goals, and your budget. Do your homework and deal with a vendor that you are comfortable with.

Good Luck,
James
www.OneLapCamaro.com


James,
+1 You said it! I'm just waiting on my AFX spindles. I have talked to Tyler in depth and was going to have him do my sub and tubs until we got record snow and the car ended up staying in Washington. After lots of talk though he has helped us do what he was going to do. Just waiting on a few odds and ends. I was also going to add go over to Lateral G and ask about rear suspensions for 1st gen Camaros.
Mike

I agree the tall AFX spindles are one of the best mods you can do. We package them with fully adj. tubular upper arms for more alignment options and weight savings. You do NOT want to run the G mod or tall ball joints with the tall AFX spindles. Even Baer brakes for the AFX spindles are inexpensive,in this case about $700 less than the same sized brakes for stock spindles and they use larger calipers!
If you`d rather stick with stock spindles we have packages that are nearly as (or just as) effective as the tall AFX spindles. Some are made to work with the G mod,others don`t need it. The Hotchkis TVS springs and shocks are a pretty good combo for a performance street car. Coilovers add adjustability and ease of changing springs but with stock mounting points and comparable spring rates and dampening rates performance *once dialed in* should be about the same. The coilvers just make it easier to get there.
The linked coilover packages have the advantage of saving you some weight,some like the Alston G Bar add chassis stiffness to the unibody too. They may nor may not make raw handling much better than a hardcore set of leaf springs but they will yield that level of performance with a much better ride and more tunability.
I`ve taken AirRide`s advanced suspension classes and spent quite a bit of time talking to Brett about air spring and their role in a serious handling car. They`re getting amazing performance out of their test cars but I`ve become convinced that it`s in spite of the air springs rather than because of them. Brett was pretty upfront about that also. In other words a perfectly set up Air Ride setup can handle as well as a comparable steel spring car BUT no better and it will only do so at ONE ride height and air pressure combination. It may be necessary to fab and/or move mounts to get there. The big performance gaisn in their Camaro were from the performance alignment,adj. Varishocks that are the core of their Shockwaves,swaybars,tires and the Air Bar (G Bar is the same except with coilovers) rear suspension.
Subframe connectors should be on the top of the list rather than the bottom. :yes: Mark SC&C

OK....I just finished doing what you are about to start. Here is the short answer. For optimum performance, spend the big dough and just buy DSE's front subframe kit. It'll cost you about $7,000. For the next best thing (which is what I did), just get DSE's coil over conversion kit. That kit MAKES you relocate the mounting points on the upper a-arm mounts (which is what happens with the Guldstrand mod), giving less negative camber. I also bought their upper and lower a-arms. The total for parts was in the high teens, and I'll tell you it works great. On the rear, I think that DSE quadra link kit is hard to beat, but again we are talking bucks...like $4,000. Do not go with a cheaper 4-link that only bolts in. The weld in kits will prove themselves in the long run. I went with DSE drop leafs, heavy shackle kit, and koni shocks. And finally, YES you should run subframe connectors if you have any HP's under the hood, but again, I would go with a weld in application, NOT a total bolt on kit.

One last final note.....you don't want tall spindles. I can't remember exactly why, but if you want to know the beef, call the guys over at DSE...they really know their stuff.

Do you have ANY tech to back these statements up with? Just a little lesson on 1st gen front suspension-
Relocating the upper control arm (Like the Guldstrand mod) gives you MORE negative camber gain, not less. The DSE coil over conversion suffers from 2 major issues- #1 being that it cannot be adjusted while the shock is in car (what's the point of having a coil over that you must pull out of the car to adjust?) and #2 being that the amount of drop from the upper control arm mounting point puts it in between a G mod and factory. Not much of a gain for the amount of $$ and fabrication needed to install.
The Geometry numbers DSE has posted on their website tells a bunch about the performance. We started our testing with the same baseline numbers as they did, and our AFX spindle will give you more neg camber gain, better bumpsteer, and when used with a GW upper control arm, better caster too. All for WAY under $7K. But-

Don't listen to me, I own ATS, I'm biased toward our products; I also use and support DSE products. What you will never hear from me is bullsh*t to misdirect you into purchasing my product. I've been told by multiple clients that DSE is totally against our tall spindle. I've always wondered why, since the 1st car that put DSE on the map (Twister) had a tall spindle on it. Call them back and find out why, and post here for all to see.

Tyler

Just a quick note on the DSE and tall spindle thing. Their own subframe uses tall C5 spindles... BTW that`s a marketing tool more than anything IMO. We did a C5 spindle conversion subframe for Camaros with R&P etc. about 5 years ago (guess that makes DSE the johnny come lately). In fact their steering arms are almost exact duplicates of our final design,nice. What ever happened to it? Why aren`t we selling them now? Well right now it`s laying out behind the fab shop covered in about 14" of snow. Why? Because I found the C5 spindles to be a poor choice for the early Camaro. It`s got too much drop andamong other things to get good geometry out of it we had to run really low ride heights. Using a proprietary upper ball joint configuration we were able to use the stock subframe rather than making an expensive new one. After working with it for a few years I determined that I could get as good or better geometry over a much wider range of ride heights using stock spindles with tall ball joints and tie rod ends and later with the AFX tall spindles. What`s more we could do it for a fraction of the price. It may not be as sexy without a R&P but it`s a more versatile configuration and the bottom line is that it generates better numbers than the glitzy C5 spindles do. Here are a few pics of our show frame with the C5 conversion on one side and bone stock on the other. Pics were taken Aug. 21,2003,during it`s second show season. BTW the show thing was a flop,in PA. folks are still into 14" wheels and glass packs. :rolleyes: We did one revision on it after the pics with various changes here and there,a fabbed adj. front swaybar etc. before abandoning the whole concept. The trailer has a removable tongue and screw adj. stands at the corners. Once on site at a show it was reconfigured and covered with a tailored fabric cover. It generated a lot of strange looks driving down the road. :p Mark SC&C
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t119/MarkSCandC/MVC-015F.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t119/MarkSCandC/MVC-017F.jpg