ok as you all know i have just created the ultimate tribute car....of one of the most valued camaro's on the planet.....the one only z/28 convertible.

i need to have an apraisal for my insurance company to insure it.
i wanted opinions from other camaro gurus and not so gurus...

then i will have it profesionally appraised next week.

here are the statistics......

january 3rd week 1968 built
a numbers matching 1968 rs z/28 convert.
correct dated cating 3914678 block with nos 302 crank
VO103MO with my vin #
correct date 291 heads
M21 trans numbers matching.....
266 distributor
814 alternator
367 starter(correct date)
dated water pump
service package rear end dated k 15 1967 3:73:1 posi( rare rare rare)
j-l8 heavy duty front disc(rare rare rare)
crossram(real gm)
new crossram carbs not dated
new air cleaner.
2nd design crossram camshaft.
correct fan,belts hoses,wires,...... everything!!!!!!
dated tinted glass
power windows.
tilt steering
wood wheel (the best i have ever seen)
restored am/fm radio(mint)
all new wiring(entire car)
dated dec 1967 DF ralley wheels(5)!!!!!!
firestone sport car 200 tires
nos front end sheetmetal ....grille,headlight door covers.fenders,cowl vent,lower valance,
mouldings,nos doors!!!!!!!!

car has been completely blasted,shot with por 15 and tis coat primer.topped with ppg 2 stage. the car has been painted apart then re-assembled!!!

complete nut and bolt rotissery restoration with thousands of pictures throughout the entire job!!!!

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/100_0579.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/100_0541.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/100_0524.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/100_0365.jpg

OH WOW. I like

Glove Box door delete option?

Beautiful car! Gas cap delete goes along with Glove box delete.

But hey, c'mon guys, he's come this far on the dream, His hand has the "itch" for the chrome knob.

Your car looks awesome, great job ! I would guess the appraisal at
$100,000. from your description and pics ?
But as with any appraisal , its up to the guy looking at it and his knowledge so it could vary alot. Best of luck.
************************************************** *******
1967 Camaro SS-RS Conv. L-88 427
1968 Camaro RS Z28 302
1968 Camaro SS-RS Conv. 350
1969 Camaro RS Z28 JL-8 X-Ram unrestored.
1969 Camaro SS-RS Conv. 396
1969 Camaro SS-RS 350

You have built my dream car. I would appraise it at $1,000,000.00.

Where can we see all the pics?

Very nice recreation and I look forward to seeing it one of these days. I think you need to be prepared with every reciept you have. You are going to be hard pressed to find an appraiser that will really associate the car with the one of one real deal. It is an identical reproduction to you but it's a '68 ragtop with 4wheel disc brakes and 2 4bbl carbs to the appraiser and the insurence. I think you will be lucky to get it appraised for what you have invested in the car.

Of course their website and numbers are screwy but Nada show high value on a '68 Z/28 @ $70k and an RS ragtop @ $65k from those number getting an apraiser to add the JL-8 and cross-ram might bring you over $100k. They show +25% for the cross-ram as an option in '69. I think you are going to have to work an apraiser very hard to see more. I hope you can get it insured for what you have into it, it's a great car and I know you have spared no expense...

Who did your top? Are you really happy with it or are there little things you would have liked them to do different?

Great job all around... :beers:

That is one cool ride!
Nice job on that.

How do those Firestones drive? I am about to buy those....

As a buyer the problem for me would be that for 100K , or even 65K ,I could buy some form of real deal performance model first gen. The 25% Dennis is talking about for the cross ram also assumes you have a real GM cross ram and correct carbs... not a knock off . But that being said I think if you find the right guy who absolutely loves the car, and it does look beautiful great job by the way, then buying your dream car for 100k regardless of what it started life is great. We are all throwing out the 100k number and you may think in is worth 200K and in this world who knows !
And an FYI... I have seen appraisals on first gens that have been absolutely stupid on price so I think if you make your case and show receipts and have your laptop there with all your photos of the resto you will probably get a good appraisal . Many of these appraisers know just enough about cars to be dangerous. Though the comps are going to be tough find unless they include pro tour cars.

Being a recreation, I would think the appraisal value would be whatever it cost you to create it or would cost to recreate another one. That would make you the best one to estimate the value, what do you have in it?
You have so many rare and valuable parts on that car, the appraiser is going to have a hard time and will rely heavily on your documented cost.

Beautiful car! Gas cap delete goes along with Glove box delete.

But hey, c'mon guys, he's come this far on the dream, His hand has the "itch" for the chrome knob.

I believe the gas cap is sitting on top of the gas pump as it looks like he is filling up at the station in the pic.

Neat car to replicate and a very nice job! I am a '69 guy so I don't have any help on the value. Good luck...

Looks like a beautiful car - you should be proud of it no matter what number comes back from any appraiser :cool:

First of all let me say that car is friggin gorgeous. With that said..im not trying to be a jerk and i hope i dont get flogged for this but...its still a clone. I find it real hard to believe that a clone could come in with an appraisal at 100k. I was thinking more like 60- 65k. Am i crazy?

Craig,
Your not crazy. But these days finding and having the real thing is pretty hard to do sometimes. There are a whole lot of guys in the hobby and that would like to be in the hobby that could really care less. As long as it looks real and feels real then a lot of people do not care. Especially the nice ones like this 68 we are all drooling over. But cars like this I hate to use the word "clone". To me this is a very fine example of a ultra rare 68 Z28 vert. This appears to be a no expense type of restoration.

How about all of the 427 vetts and Hemi cars that are out there these days.... There are about 5-10 times more of them on the road now then back in the day. They still bring the BIG bucks.....

Maybe Jody or Charley will post up... Charley had that yellow ZL1 clone and might provide some good insite into price here.

Craig - Actual sales value vs appraisal and insurance value are 2 different animals. The car is a badass '68 RS ragtop without all the Z/28 add-ons. The appraiser will look the car over and go to the books and see a price somewhere in the $60 - $65k range. Then reciepts for the JL-8 and cross-ram parts and pieces are going to push it up from there.

Being that it is has the crossram and a Z28 clone I think that Jerry would be the best at giving this car a fair and educated appraisal. You would have to have an appraiser who truely understands what you are cloning and who better fits the bill.

thanks guys...

i was honestly thinking 100k. and will try to insure it for that...i woulndnt sell it for that.....the real one sold for what? 1.5mill 3-4 years ago? if this were one tenth the value i would be happy.......im not sure how much i have in it.. im afraid to even add up the stack of receipts........

i even have a pop and window sticker.........thanks for all the emails and pm,s.. over 50!!!! in just one day!!!!

you guys are great!! i hope to meet some of you in pleasanton this weekend.. see you at the show!!!!

The value, IMO, is in the quality of the restoration and replication. In this case I would value it higher because you actually took the effort to replicate everything on this car to the real thing. You didnt just slap z/28 and 302 emblems on it.

You know how much time and money you have into it. I would say it is worth $75K to $100K. If I was insuring it, I would insure it for at least $10K more than what I have into it.

thanks guys...

i was honestly thinking 100k. and will try to insure it for that...i woulndnt sell it for that.....the real one sold for what? 1.5mill 3-4 years ago? if this were one tenth the value i would be happy.......im not sure how much i have in it.. im afraid to even add up the stack of receipts........

i even have a pop and window sticker.........thanks for all the emails and pm,s.. over 50!!!! in just one day!!!!

you guys are great!! i hope to meet some of you in pleasanton this weekend.. see you at the show!!!!
Beautiful car. Best year, best model, best engine, best color.
Well, I would have done the interior in parchment, but thats me.
I think a 100k appraisal is possible, but you will need to help the appriser with reciepts and documentation.
As far as 100K sale price, well all you need is some BJ type hype and two guys (or one guy and a chandelier) that want it, and that could happen too!
I would love to see the reaction at shows when the Camaro experts (there's always one) see the matching numbers and documentation.

just had it professionaly appraised......


it was written at 100K!!!!

wow, all that work,all that time.....i would not sell it for that........

but still happy......

now i go to my insurance company......what do i need to ask or know to protect myself?

Congratulations! I'd frame it. I bet 87% of the appraisal is because it's a '68.

I saw the car at Pleasanton this weekend. Nice car but what was disturbing was all the paperwork on display. I only glanced at it but there was a aged window sticker showing it as a Z28 and lots of other paperwork. If the car ever gets sold and all that paperwork is included...........

Congratulations! I'd frame it. I bet 87% of the appraisal is because it's a '68.
I don't undertand what you mean. Please explain.

Hmmm, me neither. Grundy insures my '68 Z/28 for 100K, which is what it appraised at last year.

I don't undertand what you mean. Please explain. First, let me say this: Your car is beautiful and it shows of the workmanship put into it. As others have said, I do also, it's an awesome car. I hope you get years of enjoyment from driving it.

Therefore, it's a First Gen joke between the owners of different years within the generation.

Owners of specific years tell you the year they own is the best.

And as far as the professional appraisal paperwork, I'd frame it just to keep it straight and no folds.

I saw the car at Pleasanton this weekend. Nice car but what was disturbing was all the paperwork on display. I only glanced at it but there was a aged window sticker showing it as a Z28 and lots of other paperwork. If the car ever gets sold and all that paperwork is included...........

I hear what youre saying.. but considering there is no such thing as a 68 Z28 Convertible i wouldnt think theres to much concern that it gets passed off at some point as a real Z. Yes, i know there was 1 68Z Vert special made... but for all intents and purposes there is no such car.

I saw the car at Pleasanton this weekend. Nice car but what was disturbing was all the paperwork on display. I only glanced at it but there was a aged window sticker showing it as a Z28 and lots of other paperwork. If the car ever gets sold and all that paperwork is included...........

you guys....

this is exaclty why i did it!!!!!!!!

it will open your eyes!!! better watch out when your buying a numbers matching fully documented z/28!!!!!!!

did you look really close? at everything?

scary huh?

there was one built!!!!!! so everybody will know mine is a re-creation.i want to teach everybody what someone can do........fake a car to almost uncertain doubt!!!

i never want to see anybody sell a fake car as real!!!!!!!!!

There is a well known burnished brown COPO clone out there with paperwork. Every year a different dealer puts it up for sale as a real car. We then send him old threads where we discussed it's past the the complete history of it being built. It has gone on long enough that the current dealer says we are wrong and he has all the paperwork to prove the car. He is still selling the car as the real deal and as time passes it gets harder to prove otherwise. In 20 years a dealer could come up with this Z28 convert at a auction with all it's fake paperwork and easily sell it as the real deal. How do we prove him wrong. The aged build sheet will really be aged by then. The car is neat but the effort that went into the fake paperwork is not neat in my opinion. Maybe he can post a pic of all the fake paperwork to give you a idea of just how convincing it all is.

Charlie
I know what you are saying but wagonman has been up front about this car from the beginning. Evereyone on this site paying attention knows the deal and the numbers have been recorded. He isn't trying to con anyone other than for a laugh. As long as their is an internet there is a history on this car. As usual... it is always buyer be ware. I agree the paperwork is an issue but today anyone can get paperwork, vins, trim tags ...etc...

Bob - I'm 100% sure Charley is aware that Wagonman has no ill intentions... All he's doing is looking far down the road and speculating based on current events and his expertise in the hobby.

As cool as the car is there could come the day when Wagonmans car comes up for auction with all the paper he has for it. At this auction is the real car and both sellers are insisting they have the real one. Yes, Wagonman is long gone out of the scene and for that matter so are most of us and there are no "in the know about this tribute car" guys at this auction. You might even have 2 honest sellers because wagonman's great grandson sold it and that guy passed it off to the current owner as real. The current owner has know real camaro knowledge, he just has a fat wallet and got a Camaro book for his birthday and got interested... See where all this is going? I'll quit being silly but, we can't predict where the future goes and what goes on in the future.

We just went through a 7 month ordeal where a member here ended up getting half his money back on a car that ended up being returned to the owner it was stolen from in 1979. How much more bizzar really is the idea of someone coming into possession of wagonmans ragtop years from now and eventually passing it off as the one and only?

Bob - I'm 100% sure Charley is aware that Wagonman has no ill intentions... All he's doing is looking far down the road and speculating based on current events and his expertise in the hobby.

As cool as the car is there could come the day when Wagonmans car comes up for auction with all the paper he has for it. At this auction is the real car and both sellers are insisting they have the real one. Yes, Wagonman is long gone out of the scene and for that matter so are most of us and there are no "in the know about this tribute car" guys at this auction. You might even have 2 honest sellers because wagonman's great grandson sold it and that guy passed it off to the current owner as real. The current owner has know real camaro knowledge, he just has a fat wallet and got a Camaro book for his birthday and got interested... See where all this is going? I'll quit being silly but, we can't predict where the future goes and what goes on in the future.

We just went through a 7 month ordeal where a member here ended up getting half his money back on a car that ended up being returned to the owner it was stolen from in 1979. How much more bizzar really is the idea of someone coming into possession of wagonmans ragtop years from now and eventually passing it off as the one and only?

Its hard for me to imagine that is possible...no matter how far down the road it happens. The ture 68Z Vert is so well documented, so well known among the purists. Everyone knows when it trades hands and whos hands it ends up in. Its hard for me to imagine any scenario where there could become confusion on which one is the real deal.

"As cool as the car is there could come the day when Wagonmans car comes up for auction with all the paper he has for it. At this auction is the real car and both sellers are insisting they have the real one."

this will nevr happen in my lifetime...

i wont let it!!!!

besides, it is a different color than the real 1968 z/28 conv.

mine is also a rally sport.......

those are the real differences.........and the vin number of course....

i spoke with the owner of the real car.....he's a great guy........i had mentioned to him how making a clone of a car of only one to exist will show everybody buyer beware........i dont want anybody to clone cars for profit....... i have been very open and honest about this car...i have dislosed vin#'s, part#'s dates codes etc.........its all documented........i have spoken to all the "BIG WIGS" during my restoration. they all know about it.........

any pics of the restoration available on line?

"As cool as the car is there could come the day when Wagonmans car comes up for auction with all the paper he has for it. At this auction is the real car and both sellers are insisting they have the real one."

this will nevr happen in my lifetime...

i wont let it!!!!

besides, it is a different color than the real 1968 z/28 conv.

mine is also a rally sport.......

those are the real differences.........and the vin number of course....

i spoke with the owner of the real car.....he's a great guy........i had mentioned to him how making a clone of a car of only one to exist will show everybody buyer beware........i dont want anybody to clone cars for profit....... i have been very open and honest about this car...i have dislosed vin#'s, part#'s dates codes etc.........its all documented........i have spoken to all the "BIG WIGS" during my restoration. they all know about it.........

Your intentions are not in question, cars like this out live owners... Crooks capitalize on any opportunity that arises.

Honest guys like deals, honest guys get blinded by fast and slow talking crooks offering the ever illusive treasure chest.

If a scammer can retain a deopsit on a picture of a car and a perceived legit classic car dealer be called out over and over and still continue to pass off the clone Charley speaks of, anything can happen in this hobby...

The real one no longer has real paperwork. It was stolen at a auction out of the owners Suburban while they were unloading the car from the trailer. Luckily there were copies made of the paperwork. The car has also changed owners.

If you sell your clone car are you going to give the buyer the paperwork ?

The green one is the only real one as far as we know. That doesn't mean there isn't something similar tucked away in some GM execs garage somewhere. Maybe this clone gets sold overseas and people not up on these cars are thinking they hit the motherload because of all the paperwork backing the car up. I gaurantee you if you posted the clone on Ebay and posted the paperwork and a story claiming it as real you would have a ton of real bidders at stupid money.

The car is beautiful !!

ivfryman,

there are no pics online.......i have hundreds of pics avail and will use them to answer questions and help other team camaro members on there restoration.....

Anyone who makes or uses fake paperwork is potentionally liable in court for aiding and abetting fraud and misuse of documents.

Look what the Feds are doing with the people who make fake paperwork to help illegal aliens get jobs.
Knowingly assisting illegal aliens to appear qualified for employment in this country is a crime and the people who run phony document mills have received prison terms.

I think if the FED GOV ever investigates fraud in the old car hobby, they will go after the paper trail.

It also helps to be well informed. It does not take a trained eye to determine the P-O-P and Warranty Book on Wagonman's car is not the original, you just need to know what to look for. Just like the carbs on the car, they are not period correct.

Don't get me wrong, that is one fine car, and the effort that it took to bring it to life is a testament to the diligence of the owner and I am not knocking the car, or Wagonman. But, there are clues if you choose to look for them that will lead you to discover the car is a clone.

It also helps to be well informed. It does not take a trained eye to determine the P-O-P and Warranty Book on Wagonman's car is not the original, you just need to know what to look for. Just like the carbs on the car, they are not period correct.

Don't get me wrong, that is one fine car, and the effort that it took to bring it to life is a testament to the diligence of the owner and I am not knocking the car, or Wagonman. But, there are clues if you choose to look for them that will lead you to discover the car is a clone.

IMHO the whole point of making an exact clones with paperwork is to fool someone, certainly not yourself. If you really do your homework you can produce an exact clone.

An example that comes to mind is the orange 1969 rs/ss L89 convert. It started out as a 327 210hp powerglide car. The owner who had the car done sold it as a clone, and had the purchaser sign paperwork stating that is how it was described and sold. Fast forward 3-4 years and a couple owners and it grew paperwork and was ultimately sold as the real deal. Thats the problem, as well intentioned as your efforts may be to build the ultimate car for YOU, it could eventually end up being misrepresented by future owners.

Your car is not a real good example, due to there only being one known real one. I just don't get why faking paperwork was really important... I just don't get that part and never will agree with making fake paperwork. I would rather see a story board displayed detailing the history of making the car and your passion in bringing your dream to life and all that went a long with the project.

Argh, these discussions are always frustrating. This is a beautiful car. Anyone familiar with Camaro's will know it's a re-creation, clone, clowne, or whatever the word du jour is. If there is a person out there now, tomorrow, in 20 or 50 years that plops down big bucks for this car thinking it's a real Z28 convertible without doing the due diligence, it will just prove the saying "a fool and his money are soon parted". I have little pity for these folks. From the tone of some of the previous post's, the only right thing for wagonman to do with this car is to destroy after he is done enjoying it. Then it will never perpetuate the mis-representation problem.

Enough is enough. It's a beautiful car and wagonman did a spectacular job with it. Now maybe even us mortals will get an opportunity to see what might have been.

As always, just my .02. No offense intended towards anyone.

Everyone could enjoy the car just as much without the fake paperwork. I would imagine most people's due diligence is hoping a car has paperwork. This one does and when I glanced at it what jumped out at me was a nice, aged window sticker. You are assuming the buyer is a experienced car nut. There are many folks that would look at the paperwork and believe it. There are many folks that don't have a clue as to how well documents are being faked.

The paperwork could have a big watermark on it saying "fake" and probably impress more people because they would then really get to be impressed at how well stuff is being faked.

Sheepsinshed if you are refering to my post as this quote indicates please read my summary.
Your Quote:"From the tone of some of the previous post's, the only right thing for wagonman to do with this car is to destroy after he is done enjoying it. Then it will never perpetuate the mis-representation problem"

My statement summarizing my feeling regarding this specific car:
"Your car is not a real good example, due to there only being one known real one. I just don't get why faking paperwork was really important... I just don't get that part and never will agree with making fake paperwork. I would rather see a story board displayed detailing the history of making the car and your passion in bringing your dream to life and all that went a long with the project".

BTW, restamping motors, components and faking paperwork to replicate an original is way over the line period.

I have to agree with shaugs. Why is it important to re-stamp the motor?? Be proud of the 302 you created without re-stamping. Also, if the car were a true clone it would be painted the same color and have the exact same options as the real deal, right?

In my opinion, re-stamping motors and faking paperwork does not add value to the workmanship of the car so why do it??

What would be cool is instead of all the "recreated" original paperwork, is if there were a storyboard that talks about the story of the real 68 Z Vert and how it came into being (wagonman may have one. I don't know). It just seems a little irresponsible in a time when there is so much confusion in the hobby. This car could actually act as an educational tool (and I don't mean how to fake paperwork, etc) but on a very interesting and rare part of the history of the Camaro.

I would say that since for all practical purposes there are no vert Zs, then it is not a recreation or a clone but a fake. Anyone in the know, and a lot of people are will see it on the road and think what a joke.

I would say that since for all practical purposes there are no vert Zs, then it is not a recreation or a clone but a fake. Anyone in the know, and a lot of people are will see it on the road and think what a joke.

I dont think to many people, including myself, would see it on the road and think "what a joke" First thing i would think is.."thats a beautiful car". At the same time i would certainly know its not a real Z. Now, if someone were truly trying to pass it off as a real Z, then i would think... what a joke. The fake paperwork is a whole different issue.

it's not intended as a clone or fake.

i wanted a convertible and also a crossram car. so i put them together.
if i were able to order a car in 1968. this is what i would have ordered...
since chevy only made one..i went ahead and made another.

so now i have a 1968 rs z/28 jl8 crossram convertible....

since i only do something all the way,i made sure to use the correct parts.
with the correct date,casting number etc........

since i wasnt old enough at the time in 68 i can truly say i now have the car of my dreams.just as good as if chevy made it........ok.....ok......better!!!!!!! kidding of course

Sheepsinshed if you are refering to my post as this quote indicates please read my summary.
Your Quote:"From the tone of some of the previous post's, the only right thing for wagonman to do with this car is to destroy after he is done enjoying it. Then it will never perpetuate the mis-representation problem"

My statement summarizing my feeling regarding this specific car:
"Your car is not a real good example, due to there only being one known real one. I just don't get why faking paperwork was really important... I just don't get that part and never will agree with making fake paperwork. I would rather see a story board displayed detailing the history of making the car and your passion in bringing your dream to life and all that went a long with the project".

BTW, restamping motors, components and faking paperwork to replicate an original is way over the line period.
I agree 100% also. Not knocking the efforts to build this car, it is beautiful car. Rest assured it will show up down the road as being the 2nd real documented barn find Z28 convertible, just restored and only 500K. the members on this site only represent 1% of the potential buyers if that much, the other 99% don't know these posts even exist.

wagonman,
Unfortunately, when you build a car like this and go all the way with the restamping of the engine and creating your own docs, you are casting doubt on other cars you own. I see in your signature you own a 1969 rs/ss 396 350hp conv fact air,pw,more.... If it's a legit car, than this is a very special and rare car as the 350hp 396 was the rarest of the 3 396 motors. But, who is going to believe it is real once you have the reputation as someone who can and does create fake stampings and false paperwork?? Just something to think about.

wagonman,
Unfortunately, when you build a car like this and go all the way with the restamping of the engine and creating your own docs, you are casting doubt on other cars you own. I see in your signature you own a 1969 rs/ss 396 350hp conv fact air,pw,more.... If it's a legit car, than this is a very special and rare car as the 350hp 396 was the rarest of the 3 396 motors. But, who is going to believe it is real once you have the reputation as someone who can and does create fake stampings and false paperwork?? Just something to think about.

EXACTLY MY POINT!!!!......

im casting doubt on ALL camaro's with full documentation!!!!!!!!!!

if you think this is the only camaro with full documentation that is fake then i dont know what else to say ..

im just the only person that is openly disclosing the truth...

did you read post #27?

im the kind of guy that will answer questions about my car at a car show, the most honest and acurate way i know possible.this prevents embaressment.i only know a little about camaro's compared to some ppl that may look my car over at a show.they will be able to tell me more about my car than i know.but they will also find that what i say is true and accurate....like my car below...

i know exacltly what my 1969 rs/ss L34 convertible is....

original factory power windows(real)

original A/C car(real)

factory muncie car(real)

original fold down seat(real)

BU 12 bolt posi (i dont know) its one week to late on the axle date code.casing date is perfect.but first week of june cars have some discrepansies on this issue.if this were a re-stamp it would have been a correct date right? soo anyones guess.............i say real..........

original rally sport (i think its real) all the rs equipment is original.nothing repro!!!
the hole in the firewall is real. .but the back up light holes are not stamped out.so was the car rear-ended at one time? idk...

numbers matching trans (real) easy to tell when i had it out......

numbers matching engine (i dont know if its real) i doubt it though.i cant have that good of luck.i purchased the car in oct of last year as is.......beautiful car worth what i paid for it.......the seller claims its not a re-stamp.....but come on... me owning a fact L34 rs/ss fully loaded convertible? whats that worth? 120K? 1 of only 2018 L34cars made?

you see,if i were bill clinton i would have admitted having sexual relations with monica. life is much simpler this way.......there would have been far less scandle from the beginning.....

Gorgeous Car..
Excellent Job wagonman..!
Very impressive..

...but I'm a little confused and I've gotta ask..

Is your tribute to the Pete Estes Z/28?
www.ColoradoCamaro.com/pics/pete/article-02.jpg (http://www.ColoradoCamaro.com/pics/pete/article-02.jpg)

GHOSTBUSTER thank you......

tribute? yes since ppl say so...........since there was only one made.

IT IS SURE CAUSING AN UPROAR!!!!

i just say its my very own 1968 rs z/28 jl8 crossram convertible.......i would love to own the original and also have high respect for the current owner.. his car is worth millions...............

IT IS SURE CAUSING AN UPROAR!!!!

Anytime fake paper and restamps are discussed, that is to be expected.

With this particular car, I dont see much issue as there is only one made, and it is well-accounted for. Plus, this car has been (I'm assuming) documented through the CRG guys as well as this site, and I don't see either going away anytime soon.

Its a beautiful car and an excellent restoration, however what is it exactly?

Its simply a 68 RS convertible (assuming it was originally an RS car to begin with) that has been upgraded to Z/28 specs, including the crossram and JL8. I wouldn't consider it a recreation as one could never have ordered a Z/28 convertible back in 1968. I don't neccessarily consider it a tribute car either, as the one and only Estes 68 Z/28 was originally a British Green/White car without the RS option. To me it is just a beautiful and well reconstructed Camaro convertible that has been upgraded to be extra special and unique.

The fact that it has options which were not available to this particular model, but available on the Z/28, does increase the value imho. However as they have been installed on the car, their value has diminished a bit from what one could sell the separate parts for on their own. Still I think based on the level of detail, the quality of the restoration, the desireable color, trim and options all together make it a unique car worthy of a $100k appraised value.

What bothers me is the "recreation" of documentation to back up the car, and the misrepresention of it as a restored numbers matching car. It is simply not a numbers matching car. While the date codes are within the guidelines for a "correct" restoration, the fact remains, it was impossible for anyone back in 1968 to order this car as equipped from GM. I have no problem with someone creating something special that pleases them, but I don't understand the desire of creating bogus documentation to back up that dream.

Still, its an awesome car, and I applaud wagonman for building it. However the fact remains, it is just a nice 1968 RS convertible. The Z/28, JL8 & crossram options make it unique and increase its value and desireability, however it cannot and should not be considered a real Z/28.

thanks guys,,,,,,

here are some more pics of detail...
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/100_0332.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/100_0337.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/100_9819.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/101_0025.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/100_8959.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/100_0536.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/100_0534.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/101_0035.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/101_0030.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/100_0254.jpg

Just about everyone on this site is here because they know something about Camaros or would like to learn. The average Joe at the show doesn't know that much to realize this is a spoof to prove how easy it is to clone a car. I think the car is awesome and a great idea to make a tribute of, I just don't think that anyone outside this site is learning the lesson you are trying to make. I may have been the first to say it in your original post,(http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=91140&highlight=68+z%2F28+convertible) 20 years from now people will think that there were 2 68 Z/28 convertibles. I will still be around so I will help cast doubt when someone trys to sell it.

Great job! You car is like my cars little brother with the blue on blue, maybe I'll make mine a Z/28....I only have 602 motors to choose from, wonder if someone will give me a good deal on one, I got 5 bucks! ;-)

I would like to see pics of the paperwork posted. I would say the paperwork would fool 90% of the members of this site if they didn't already know you couldn't order a Z28 convert.

i'm sorry, i will not post any pics of the protect-O-plate or any other documentation.
yes they are very convincing to say the least.

engine and tranny stamps i will post......

i will also post pics requested for any 1968 z/28 refrences.......

thanks guys.......

So what does everyone think of the engine stamp ?

thanks guys,,,,,,

here are some more pics of detail...


http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c74/1963wagonman/z28/100_9819.jpg

I think the assembly stamp looks spot on, but just not buying the VIN stamp...

I think you should shop it around to the major magazines and see if you can get a feature article on "How to build a fake car complete with documentation".
I will bet Kieth Martin at Sports Car Market would love to publish that article.

i'm sorry, i will not post any pics of the protect-O-plate or any other documentation.
yes they are very convincing to say the least.

thanks guys.......

Now I REALLY don't get it. I thought part of the purpose of this whole project with fraudulent documentation was to educate. So, I can go to a show and see it, but you won't post it here? I am not getting very educated.

BTW, beautiful car, and I am really not trying to be an jerk, I seriously don't understand this logic. I think Charley made a legitimate request.

I would also like you to share with us where you purchased the fake documentation. The producer of this crap is real low on the food chain.

you are right! some of you arent getting it!!!!

my purpose has been accomplished. you may not be aware of it but i educated you. you are now aware that documentation can be produced....

i'm not going to educate you how to duplicate it....

unfortunately the internet is a dangerous place to display documentation of this nature.i should'nt have to explain why it is,and how it differs from displaying it behind glass at a car show......just think about it.........

Fake tags, stamps, and paperwork have been going on for many years, and many of us are fully aware of that, so I'm not sure what you have "educated" us about.

There are countless examples of each available on the internet.

It's fully your right to not post the paper here. Have you sent scans/copies to any of the CRG guys?

Fake tags, stamps, and paperwork have been going on for many years, and many of us are fully aware of that, so I'm not sure what you have "educated" us about.

There are countless examples of each available on the internet.

It's fully your right to not post the paper here. Have you sent scans/copies to any of the CRG guys?

ramairdave,thank you.

you and i are aware of it.many on team camaro are also aware if it. but it seems that many are not.they are very surprized at me for creating this car.putting me on a defensive mode as if im trying to make a multi million dollar car.and sell it as such.

but the situation is quite the opposite.i have been open about the entire restoration.documentation included.

and no i havent sent copies of any paperwork over the internet.i have posted the documentation on here for a couple of days,but decided it was'nt a good idea.

...snip...and no i havent sent copies of any paperwork over the internet

Are you sure about that??

Pic 1

Pic 2

i did not send that to anybody!!!!

i posted it here for a couple of days and removed it.you may have saved it?

so yes........i'm positive!!!!!

can you please remove that for me?

Sure, but I don't see what the big deal is....

Seems like the internet is indeed a quagmire, hmmmm?

Sure, but I don't see what the big deal is....

thanks mike.....pm sent........thank you for removing the pics.you are a good man!!!!!

i know.. what is the big deal? im in such a defense mode everytime i logg into team camaro......

im in such a defense mode everytime i logg into team camaro......

Screw it, run it up the flagpole and see who salutes it. I have a true 4210 crossram from '68, one of only a handful and I get crapped on by the racers for not putting a cage in the car and racing it in SCCA, and I get crap from the purists who say it is not "ooooooriiiiginuuuhhlllll" because it doesn't have a friggin' AIR system and a dual plane intake. I love it, it has real documentation, and because of that, I can appreciate yours, but I also know with immediacy that it is not the real deal. ***k 'em if they can't take a joke... It's mine and I can do what I want to with it... Besides, green is a cool color, just ask Gore :rolleyes:

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5362/camaro1es3.jpg

wow!

that thing is gorgeuos!!!!!!! i'm talking about the car reflected in your paint!!!!

oh yeah and your car is ok too!!!!


kidding.................

Mehhhh...

It's not a LeMans Blue vert, but it'll do.....;)

ha ha, you got me with the reflection thing, I was ready to burn up this keyboard....

This is either the longest PM in history, or you're re-typing "War & Peace", which is it?? :p

Wow..this thread has had over 2200 views. Wagonman, your car is already reaching legendary status.

Wagonman, none of my posts on this subject are meant to be negative. I think I understand what you are trying to do, i.e. create a controversy and open peoples eyes. Sure most everyone here knows about fake cars, but there are plenty of suckers out there that don't. If one of them where to come across a documented numbers matching car like yours for sale in the local paper they would probably drain thier 401K to buy it thinking they hit the jackpot.
I was serious when I said I would like to see your car get some ink in a major publication. That would educate alot more people than this board or your local shows. It would also document this car as a fabrication and reduce the fear of future fraud that alot of people here seem to have.
Also wondering if you got the spelling error on the window sticker and the mistakes on the invoice fixed?

Wagonman, since you show the car and display the fake documentation do you note that anywhere in the display. If your truly trying to educate people it should be made very clear and up front, so that in fact everyone can learn from your project. My understanding is that you do not...please clarify.

Thanks,

Wagonman, since you show the car and display the fake documentation do you note that anywhere in the display. If your truly trying to educate people it should be made very clear and up front, so that in fact everyone can learn from your project. My understanding is that you do not...please clarify.

Thanks,


The fact that it HAS Z/28 BADGES AND IS A CONVERTIBLE should probably tip off anyone who knows what a POP or broadcast sheet is....

Aka the proof is in the pudding. Imagine I'm holding a brown piece of crap in my hands. I want to rip you off so I tell you its a lobster dinner. Do you need a piece of paper to tell what it really is...?

The fact that it HAS Z/28 BADGES AND IS A CONVERTIBLE should probably tip off anyone who knows what a POP or broadcast sheet is....

Aka the proof is in the pudding. Imagine I'm holding a brown piece of crap in my hands. I want to rip you off so I tell you its a lobster dinner. Do you need a piece of paper to tell what it really is...?

My question was directed to Wagonman, since he is the one declaring his intent to educate hobbyist. If he promotes the car as a tribute or clone and the paperwork as fake, he in fact is providing information and thereby educating hobbyist/enthusiast. My question still stands...Your analogy has no merit in this discussion.

in my display,
i have a complete booklet on the ONE AND ONLY Z/28 CONVERTIBLE EVER MADE!!!!

yes, the green one built for pete estes........

legendary status?? wow and i have only been to one show thus far.....

as far as it being sold as real? never! i'm going to be buried in it!!!!!

just like king Tut........

in my display,
i have a complete booklet on the ONE AND ONLY Z/28 CONVERTIBLE EVER MADE!!!!

yes, the green one built for pete estes........

legendary status?? wow and i have only been to one show thus far.....

as far as it being sold as real? never! i'm going to be buried in it!!!!!

just like king Tut........

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

Steve

Buried in my Camaro..hmmm..i kinda like that idea. Just prop me up behind the wheel, glue one hand to the wheel, the other to the shifter and paint a big sh$% eatin grin on my face. Nice!

I think it's great, and anyone who doesn't know enough about Camaro history to think there is more than one '68 Z/28 conv....... They deserve to drain the 401K and hand the $$ over.

I love that wagonman did it, I would love to see it in person some day.


When I was a kid, I used to love to go to car shows and see the General Lee's. I thought it was awesome, and at 11 years old, I knew they weren't the real General Lee cars, but it was my favorite car at any show anyhow.

perhaps getting it into a major magazine is a good idea.it will bring more attention to the one and only z/28 convertible.not mine.the one built for pete estes.

i dont know how to get my car into a mag....

anybody know how?

Call Hemmings and see if they would be interested in doing a piece on your story, the car and your reasoning behind it. It would make a good article. Hell, i subscribe and id love to read it. Even refer them to this thread. When they see how much interest its generated here they should know they have a story.

I think it's great, and anyone who doesn't know enough about Camaro history to think there is more than one '68 Z/28 conv....... They deserve to drain the 401K and hand the $$ over.

I love that wagonman did it, I would love to see it in person some day.


When I was a kid, I used to love to go to car shows and see the General Lee's. I thought it was awesome, and at 11 years old, I knew they weren't the real General Lee cars, but it was my favorite car at any show anyhow.

So DVINNY.....Say your Mom was looking for a present for you and she sees this neat car with all this paperwork. The dealer says it is real and she spends 300K buying it for you....Does she deserve to lose her money because she was not up on Camaro production facts ? How many people on this site know that only one was built ? Do they deserve to be ripped off if they believe all the paperwork ?

I wonder if pics were taken at the Goodguys show of the car and the paperwork that will make it into the Goodguys Gazette as a very rare car with paperwork.

clill,

lets not go there!!!


anyway's..................
ok putting it in a very large publication and completely disclosing the re-created documentation and number stamping sounds like the right thing to do.

i feel that it will show all the members on team camaro that i'm not trying to..or planning in the future to become rich on this car.i have no intentions on convincing anybody that a 2nd z/28 conv has been found.

i will not disclose how i did it and where i found my resources.this would aid in what we are completely againsed!!!

there is only 1 true z/28 convertible.that will never change. i have the highest respect for that car and whoever owns it.

So the real 68 Z convertible had its paperwork stolen and the fake 68 Z convertible has counterfeit paperwork?
Something wrong with this picture

Chill,

I doubt my Mom would be able to make the first payment on a 300K car, but nice thought. I don't think ANYBODY looking to spend that much on a car would just buy off a dealer and not do research on what they want.
I can't believe that scenario could ever happen.

But, the major point is: Wagonman isn't trying to dupe anybody. There is no fraud there.
And I can quarantee the guys with CRG have it in their files, so no harm IMO

OK I've been reading this for a few weeks now and I've decided to put on my flame suit and say what some won't say. There's something fishy about the so called real 68Z convert!! Stolen paperwork, bought and took apart a legit Z for the drivetrain etc. Yes I think there was a real ONE but I'm not convinced this is the car. Could GM have crushed it like a lot of the one off type cars??? :D :D
Truth be known there are 2 of tribute cars IMO

OK I've been reading this for a few weeks now and I've decided to put on my flame suit and say what some won't say. There's something fishy about the so called real 68Z convert!! Stolen paperwork, bought and took apart a legit Z for the drivetrain etc. Yes I think there was a real ONE but I'm not convinced this is the car. Could GM have crushed it like a lot of the one off type cars??? :D :D
Truth be known there are 2 of tribute cars IMO

Hmm.the plot thickens. I wonder if this thread will reach "Backyard Buried Treasure" Status...

I am pretty sure that green Z convert is real.
I remember people hunting for it over 10 years ago and as I remember the story it was found with a GM employee who bought it through GM. It was then being shopped around by a broker for $250K.
Some of the parts had been changed over the years and the car was restored back.
There were some articles where Vince Piggins was interviewed and talked about the history of it.

Sad story that the docs were stolen

OK I've been reading this for a few weeks now and I've decided to put on my flame suit and say what some won't say. There's something fishy about the so called real 68Z convert!! Stolen paperwork, bought and took apart a legit Z for the drivetrain etc. Yes I think there was a real ONE but I'm not convinced this is the car. Could GM have crushed it like a lot of the one off type cars??? :D :D
Truth be known there are 2 of tribute cars IMO

no idea what you're trying to say. There is one real 68 vert Z, that is a fact and documented. This is a clone, tribute car, etc. and is not the real one, that is also a fact that the builder is sharing.

The point Charley and others are trying to make is that the forged realistic paperwork could allow someone in the future to get screwed. Just because most people on this board know there's only one real vert Z there's way more people in this world that do not know that and could be taken for a ride. I mean, do you know that there's only one 69 Trans Am ram air convertible 4 speed in white/blue stripes with a blue top? I didn't, and with fake paperwork a guy could easily clone one and sell it for $1.5 million + which is the value of this particular car. Now the Trans Am guys are sitting there saying, "well he should have known there's only one of those........................".

I think wagonman did a really good job on the car...but I agree with Jody. At this years Barrett Jackson I was looking at the red 1968 Gibb COPO Nova with Denis Gilbert...and there were a few guys standing there that thought that they knew about Novas.

The one guy says to his friends in a really loud voice...this car has to be a fake...they never made any 1968 L-78 Turbo 400 Novas. I told him to check out the documents that were with the car...so even a guy that "knows" about cars may or may not know about really rare or "one off" cars...Heck, I never knew there was even a real 68 Z/28 convert until I joined the muscle car sites... :confused:

I think camcojb brings up a very good point. One that everyone on here is trying to make also. IMHO, wagonman has been pretty straight forward in disclosing to everyone here that it's a "clone" and hasn't tried to misrepresent what the car actually is....

We will always come across people from both sides of the fence, honest and dishonest. We will always be challenged with people that'll take a rotted out car and salvage the firewall and build a car around it and sell it for original. Some may see value in that, some may not. My buddy and I hypothesize all the time, at what point is the original car gone. A firewall and cowl tag, doesn't necessarily make a car.

I think we all know, at the end of the day, it's the responsibility of the buyer to educate himself on what he's buying. Sure we don't like to see anyone get "screwed" in their purchase, but we all know those are the real dangers, whether we like them or not. wagonman says he has no intentions of selling, and we can hope that if he changes his mind, that he'll offer full disclosure. Until that time, I say we give him the benefit of the doubt, since he has already shown that he's offering full disclosure to all of us.

Just my $.02.

I have a Yenko clone that's pretty true to a real one (except that it's a factory A/C car. Irrespective of my car, I feel that when a buyer considers a high dollar car, he should either know himself, or pay someone who does, to thoroughly check the car....paperwork or not, fake paperwork or not.

I fully support the notion that we should not openly share "tips" on how to spot fake tags, POPs and other docs. What is education to one is accessory to fraud to another. But I do not buy the notion that we need to protect future buyers. I have always found that concept to be at cross purposes with the concept of trying to buy cheap. How many times have we read on this forum words to the effect of "Buy it now, before the guy finds out what he really has!" I remember the thread about a rare car in NY or NJ that was offered well below market value. Someone (maybe more than one) jumped in their truck towing a trailer and carrying a wad of cash in hopes of "stealing" the car. Turned out to be a hoax, and they wasted lots of time and money. They felt scammed, but did not see that they were willing and able to "scam" the seller. You might say, they did not scam, because they were willing to buy at the price the seller was willing to sell. That's true, but the same would be true for a guy who buys a clone thinking it is real. He is willing to buy at the price the seller is willing to sell.

All I'm saying is that if we feel the need to "protect the buyer" we should feel the same need to "protect the seller". Or maybe we should feel the same need to "educate the seller" as to "educate the buyer" Actually, I think the "What's it Worth" section is an attempt to do just that.

Now Charley, this is not directed at you, as I believe you to be upstanding. In all the years I've been following this forum, and the Yenko forum, I have never seen you make a disparaging remark. You only point out facts as you see them, or present alternative perspectives.

I think it's great, and anyone who doesn't know enough about Camaro history to think there is more than one '68 Z/28 conv....... They deserve to drain the 401K and hand the $$ over.

I love that wagonman did it, I would love to see it in person some day.


When I was a kid, I used to love to go to car shows and see the General Lee's. I thought it was awesome, and at 11 years old, I knew they weren't the real General Lee cars, but it was my favorite car at any show anyhow.
I am not refering to this car specifically, I am refering to any car with fake paperwork. Imagine going to look at a freshly advertised 2 owner car and in the glove box you find the POP and window sheet that show it as something rare like an L78. If you didn't know how good the fake stuff looks or that it even existed, you would probably think you found a hidden jewel.

I keep thinking back to the brown copo clone that now has what the dealer is convinced is a real protecto-plate etc. He is selling it as a real car and how do we prove him wrong ? He has a perfect protecto-plate. We have old owners words that it is a clone. What if we had no old owners word ? Are even the old owners words enough to refute a protecto-plate ? At some point these fakes will become real because of how well they are done and how real the paperwork is. How do you beat a guy in court that has exceptional paperwork that happens to be fake and you have nothing except the word of a previous owner that probably won't be willing to testify in court ? I fear it is a losing battle.

I keep thinking back to the brown copo clone that now has what the dealer is convinced is a real protecto-plate etc. He is selling it as a real car and how do we prove him wrong ? He has a perfect protecto-plate. We have old owners words that it is a clone. What if we had no old owners word ? Are even the old owners words enough to refute a protecto-plate ? At some point these fakes will become real because of how well they are done and how real the paperwork is. How do you beat a guy in court that has exceptional paperwork that happens to be fake and you have nothing except the word of a previous owner that probably won't be willing to testify in court ? I fear it is a losing battle.My thoughts exactly.

It's one thing to build a clone or tribute car. It's a completely different thing altogether to create fake documentation for said car. If you build such a car with the intent to keep it forever and never sell it, then what is the point of creating fake documentation?

I've been resisting the temptation to chime in on this for long enough now. Ok, first thigs first. The car is awesome with a capital "A" baby (that was my Dick Vitale imitation). The thing that strikes me is the notion that all the time and effort that was obviously spent creating, or re-creating, this car and the forged documents is professed to be in an effort to educate people that it is possible to do. This just dosn't pass the smell test.
It is only my opinion that the car was built to build the car, period, documentation and all, not to serve as an education tool for people to know documentation can be faked. I AM NOT SAYING THERE WAS ANY MALICIOUS INTENT. If that ws the case why not just create the realistic documents and not spend countless tens of thousands building the car?
Now I realize there are many altruistic people in this world and I try to be as such myself. However, this is a strange way to practice altruism. None of us know the motivation of anyone else, but we do know human nature. This type of action under the guise of educating the rest of us just doesn't make sense. What does make sense is to build a one off car that is awesome. Almost all of us, including me, would love to have such an awesome car.

I keep thinking back to the brown copo clone that now has what the dealer is convinced is a real protecto-plate etc. He is selling it as a real car and how do we prove him wrong ? He has a perfect protecto-plate. We have old owners words that it is a clone. What if we had no old owners word ? Are even the old owners words enough to refute a protecto-plate ? At some point these fakes will become real because of how well they are done and how real the paperwork is. How do you beat a guy in court that has exceptional paperwork that happens to be fake and you have nothing except the word of a previous owner that probably won't be willing to testify in court ? I fear it is a losing battle.

PRECISELY why i re-created a very well known,documented one -off car!!!

how many copo cars are there? nobody really knows. clowning these cars is a dangerous thing to do.....buying one is more dangerous...

i knew very well that this car i built would become incredibly controversial.
i am out to fully dislose and educate my fellow camaro brothers and sisters on how well re-creating can become.

i'm thinking of displaying this car at the half moon bay dream machines show this month.

who will be there that would like to see it?
thanks guys....

My thoughts exactly.

It's one thing to build a clone or tribute car. It's a completely different thing altogether to create fake documentation for said car. If you build such a car with the intent to keep it forever and never sell it, then what is the point of creating fake documentation?

i am out to fully dislose and educate my fellow camaro brothers and sisters on how well re-creating can become.

NOT TO EDUCATE HOW!!!!!!!

What does make sense is to build a one off car that is awesome. Almost all of us, including me, would love to have such an awesome car.

wow!!! thanks......

Maybe we should start a new forum. We could call it "May I please do this with MY car". That way the PURISTS could either grant or deny us permission to build OUR cars the way we want them. Awesome car wagonman.:yes: I've been trying to PM you, but your box is understandably full. Congratulations on an incredible creation. I only wish you would have cleared it with everyone else before you built it.:noway: Mike. :beers: :beers:

Common Mike - why start something with comments like that? This thread has been great, it give a good insight to the passion folks have and no one has said "you better run it by us first". Sure some have been vocal about the paper but if we don't here from all sides it just becomes a pep rally.

Get on a crowded elevator and someone always has to fart!!

thanks big mike.i see what your saying..

i just roll with the punches....

i have always been the type that can make somebody feel as if i were taking there advice, but in the end i do it my own way.....

the guys on here are still great. never any harm.just opinions that may widely differ.i always listen to whatever opinion is thrown my way..i have truly leaned alot from this post.from those opnions.....

i think this car has been a educational blessing........

PS.... yes i have received hundreds of e-mails and pm's.. almost all have been very positive and encouraging.i try to empty my inbox as often as i can....

Maybe we should start a new forum. We could call it "May I please do this with MY car". That way the PURISTS could either grant or deny us permission to build OUR cars the way we want them. Awesome car wagonman.:yes: I've been trying to PM you, but your box is understandably full. Congratulations on an incredible creation. I only wish you would have cleared it with everyone else before you built it.:noway: Mike. :beers: :beers:

No one here has suggested that he should not build HIS car the way HE wants. What most are concerned about, me included is restamping components and purchasing and displaying fake paperwork. I understand Wagonmans position, and his stated motives. I just disagree with the ultimate outcome it will produce. Rather than educate buyers, it may encourage more counterfeit cars sold as real, since this example shows how easily it can be done. Also it showcases the work and capability of the producer of this fake documentation (free advertisement) and illustrates how real it looks.

I am a purist and that is my passion in this hobby, however I also don't have a problem with tribute/clones. However I feel the line is crossed when engines/components are restamped and documentation is faked. The more demand for this paperwork, the better it will become.

If you wanted to really educate people there would have been a big sign next to the paperwork stating that it was all fake. That would have educated people. How many people looked at the car and paperwork then walked away thinking it was real ?

If you wanted to really educate people there would have been a big sign next to the paperwork stating that it was all fake. That would have educated people. How many people looked at the car and paperwork then walked away thinking it was real ?

only one person at the carshow thought it was real....he completely thanked me and shook my hand for bringing this"museum piece to the show for all to see"he was quickly informed by myself and others standing close by that it was re-created. everybody that approached me knew it was re-created. the topic of conversation was more along the lines of where i got my original z/28 parts. or just crossram related discussions.it seems that the crossram group is a small and tight group.

I am not refering to this car specifically, I am refering to any car with fake paperwork. Imagine going to look at a freshly advertised 2 owner car and in the glove box you find the POP and window sheet that show it as something rare like an L78. If you didn't know how good the fake stuff looks or that it even existed, you would probably think you found a hidden jewel.

I agree with you on that, I'm just saying this car specifically does not appear to be an attempt at fooling anyone.

Chill makes a good point about the brown copo. It may have not originally been an attempt at fraud either, but may have ended up that way.

Clill makes a good point about the brown copo. It may have not originally been an attempt at fraud either, but may have ended up that way.

Some may not be aware of this but it happens all too frequently. These exact clones end up changing hands, end up in the wrong hands and become REAL cars. Most of the examples I know are high end cars such as LS6 convertibles, L89 convertibles, JL8's because they are the most visible. Wagonman has brought this subject to the forefront which is a good thing. We all need to be diligent in exposing fraud in our hobby.

Just for clarification, I am not concerned with this 1968 z28 convert being sold as real, but fake cars being represented and real and sold as such everyday.

Steve
Vintage Camaro

wagonman, please more pics of the resto!

I feel I have been educated by wagonmans efforts.
It's like the trim tag thing. You have to see a few known original and reproduced examples to get a feel for real or not.
Here is a perfect example. If I had not seen wagonmans reproduced paperwork, I would not have such a strong opinion on this "newly found" paperwork in a dealer ebay ad.
http://i4.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/97/1c/d6f7_3.JPG
At least Lemans is spelled correctly.

I feel I have been educated by wagonmans efforts.
It's like the trim tag thing. You have to see a few known original and reproduced examples to get a feel for real or not.
Here is a perfect example. If I had not seen wagonmans reproduced paperwork, I would not have such a strong opinion on this "newly found" paperwork in a dealer ebay ad.
http://i4.ebayimg.com/02/i/000/97/1c/d6f7_3.JPG
At least Lemans is spelled correctly.

I believe Clill is the one who educated you, (and all the others who piped in) since he disclosed the fact that this car was displayed with fake paperwork.

I believe Clill is the one who educated you, (and all the others who piped in) since he disclosed the fact that this car was displayed with fake paperwork.
Umm, no. Clill has educated me on many subjects, but not this one.
Wagonman has been posting about this car for some time now.
In a previous post, many months ago, he shared the reproduced paperwork. If you saw it, you would understand the Lemans comment.

Umm, no. Clill has educated me on many subjects, but not this one.
Wagonman has been posting about this car for some time now.
In a previous post, many months ago, he shared the reproduced paperwork. If you saw it, you would understand the Lemans comment.

Gotcha....

68ragtop..

you are correct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

fake paperwork!!!!

they are not from the same supplier as my windowsticker!!! but i do know who produced that paperwork.i can tell the difference....
i will never disclose who this is from....that i will also take to the grave!!!!


btw... 68ragtop ....you have graduated!!!!!

my first graduating student.......

How can it be a *re creation*.. It's wagonman's creation, given that GM never built one. IF he tries to sell it with fake stamps, etc.. as *real*, then he is committing a crime! Building the car as he wants is fine, but when one does the 'fakery' with numbers, paperwork etc. that is crossing the legal/illegal line... that's MY opinion!

How can it be a *re creation*.. It's wagonman's creation, given that GM never built one. IF he tries to sell it with fake stamps, etc.. as *real*, then he is committing a crime! Building the car as he wants is fine, but when one does the 'fakery' with numbers, paperwork etc. that is crossing the legal/illegal line... that's MY opinion!

Well Chevrolet did build one but it never went into production, that covers the *re creation*..

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, thousands of people have famous paintings on their walls complete with signatures and none are the real deal, toss them all in jail! Shoot thousands of gear heads display their cars with fake window stickers, impound their cars and lock them up for their lack of honesty. It's all about intent...

Okay - who woke this one up? :mad::p:sad:

Okay - who woke this one up? :mad::p:sad:

i was thinking the same thing....

Okay - who woke this one up? :mad::p:sad:

Maybe it was Bigfoot? :p

hey wagonman,

to hell with what people think.

plus you made your 68 vert what you had dreamed about.

also i think that you really didn't make this car up the be the real deal.

just my .02 cents on this

mark b