I was thinking of buying one of these LS Crate engines for my car.
Its rated at 440 hp and 420 ft lbs.
Costs is $5,000 from GMPP. Or i could buy an LS6 for another $1500. The LS6 has 40 less hp but has the reliability of EFI.
If I was to buy this engine what kind of spark controller would I need?
What about any other electronics to make this motor run in a 1st gen?
Any help, ideas or opinions are greatly appreciated.
Considering the purchase next week.

Rich
http://www.gmpartsdirect.com/part_images/17802134-1.jpg

I just got my LS1 started last Friday, and it's all OE EFI. Man, that is the best thing I've ever done. EFI, to me, is the best thing since sliced bread.

Dont get me wrong, I love carbs too. I've got all the wideband tuning equipment and I'm very knolwedgable with them. But geez, EFI sure is cool. Starts easy every time, idles perfectly, dead-nuts reliable. The extra dough is worth it.

Matt, other than the engine what did you pay for all the electrical stuff to make it run?

What about fitment?

Thanks,
Rich

www.ls1tech.com
look in the hybrids section. There is a COMPLETE write up on the first gen install of a ls1. It will give you everything you need to know and more. Give it a try those guys are great.

Matt, other than the engine what did you pay for all the electrical stuff to make it run?

What about fitment?

Thanks,
Rich

LS1tech.com is a good resource.

Anyway, here's a short breakdown:
computer reprogramming: $300
New fuel tank pump, sender: $600
Wiring harness: Free (came with motor, reworked it myself)
O2 & IAT Sensor: $135

That's about it...so a little over $1000. Honestly, I'll probably save that much or more over time with the extra gas savings.

I purchased my LS1 used and complete with computer and wiring. This is the way to go IMO, just about everything is included and it's already a proven runner.

Fitment is great, except I'm running an AME front clip.

I'm running an LS1/T56 in my '68. I love it too, especially now that my T56 has all 6 gears working. I have a rough spreadsheet of what I spent at http://www.blown.net/ls1swap/partslist.html. A lot of stuff there is upgrades, not required for a basic swap. I bought a complete used engine and transmission with all original wiring, sensors, computer, accessories, etc. There are 5 connectors from the 4th gen engine harness that need to be hooked up to get it running in the 1st gen, and it wasn't a big deal--I spent maybe $250 on connectors/relays/wire and had a ton left over. Everything you need to know about wiring it is in the stickies in the Conversions and Hybrids forum on ls1tech.com.

Mounting isn't a big deal, you buy or build adapter plates to adapt SBC mounts to the LS1 block. I'm partial to the ATS-style plates myself (moves engine down and back), ok with the S&P plates (back the same as ATS, but not down), hate the Hooker plates (way too far back), and laugh at the BMR plates (up and forward). I've heard unconfirmed rumors that the Hooker plates will work with a stock LS1 Fbody oil pan, but all of the other require an aftermarket pan or cutting/welding the stock Fbody pan. The BMR plates also require you modify the subframe to convert to their front-steer rack & pinion setup.

Mounting the T56 required a custom crossmember and shortened driveshaft, not much different from running a T56 behind an SBC.

You could convert the carb'd LS2 back to EFI if you wanted to. Depends on your budget, there's all kinds of things you can do :). I think most people are running either the Edelbrock or the MSD spark controllers made specifically for that crate motor. I think I've read the MSD has better adjustability. I've also seen people fed up with both who've replaced the timing cover with one tht has a distributor drive provision.

Don't the crate motors include a standalone harness and computer?

If they don't, I saw an ad in last month's hot rod that painless has some offerings.

Also, the last time I was over drooling at holley.com, I saw they are selling retrofit system for those and other efi motors now, commander 950 controller bundled with a standalone harness.

Don't the crate motors include a standalone harness and computer?

If they don't, I saw an ad in last month's hot rod that painless has some offerings.

Also, the last time I was over drooling at holley.com, I saw they are selling retrofit system for those and other efi motors now, commander 950 controller bundled with a standalone harness.

The following is the discription of the motor from GMPP.

DESCRIPTION: LS 364/440 ENGINEThe General Motors LS Family of small-block engines broke new ground with efficiency and power levels never before imagined. GM Performance Parts offers several of these engines as complete assemblies ready to bolt in to your project car as a replacement or upgrade. And now for the first time, GM Performance Parts has taken one of our LS2 engines and added to it a blast from the past, our LS1 4-barrel intake manifold! Based on the LS2 engine, the LS 364/440 ships with an aluminum LS block, which has a deep-skirt and six-bolt mains. Other features include lightweight flat-top pistons with a 10.9:1 compression, powdered-metal rods, and a nodular iron crankshaft. The LS6-style cylinder heads are truly high performance pieces that deliver large amounts of air to the awaiting engine. The camshaft specs out with .500/.500" lift numbers, and has been specifically designed to work with the LS Family. The LS 364/440 is easy to install with all of the major components shipping to you in one big box. Take advantage of this opportunity to enjoy the latest evolution of the small-block Chevy. The LS 364/440 is rated at 440 horsepower and is a true blending of new technology with a proven air/fuel induction piece.

I sent them an email but haven't heard back yet. I am curious what the words "Mojor Componets" actually means.

Thanks everyone for the feedback :thumbsup:
The price of addmission was worth every penny!


Rich

Don't the crate motors include a standalone harness and computer?

If they don't, I saw an ad in last month's hot rod that painless has some offerings.

Also, the last time I was over drooling at holley.com, I saw they are selling retrofit system for those and other efi motors now, commander 950 controller bundled with a standalone harness.

Nope, they don't come with computers. I think the only GMPP crate engines that come with computers and harness are the the RamJets.

I haven't tried the Painless or Holley ECMs, but looking at the specs they are pretty much a joke compared to the stock GM PCM plus good tuning software like HP Tuners VCMSuite or EFILive. I don't know what just a Holley ECM costs, but I could buy HPTuners, a custom wiring harness, and half a dozen GM PCMs for the price of the Painless LS1 ECM. And if you figure in the dyno time of having to tune Painless ECM (it's speed-density only)...

I was just throwing a few suggestions out "Reverend."

Did you have any specific suggestions, if we assume a motor with no harness, no sensors, & no computer?

He's gonna need a lil more than a tuner.

Hey Jim, I didn't mean to come off as attacking you, I just really hate those low-end aftermarket ECMs that cost a fortune compared to the much more advanced factory PCMs.

My recommendation is the LS1 wiring and computer, and there are a bunch of different ways you can get there--it's just parts. And time. And money. I've nickel and dimed myself to death before ordering individual parts for something I wasn't familiar with (Mazda rotary rebuild), so I'm a bit partial to getting everything at once. I haven't seen anyone selling a complete retrofit kit for a GMPP LSX crate motor, so you can either buy a used engine+harness+computer to get all of the parts, or buy new or used parts individually. I don't know exactly what sensors the crate engines come with--it may be everything except the IAT and MAF. The electrical stuff isn't the only stuff you need though, you also need accessory brackets, accessories, oil pan, and probably a couple of other things that I'm forgetting right now.

Here are a few options:

Option one: purchase a complete FBody LS1 (with harness, computer, and accessories) with a bad bottom end, rape it for parts, and sell the rest.

Option two: buy a running Fbody LS1 ((with harness, computer, and accessories), rape it for parts, and sell the rest.

Option three: buy parts individually. You can probably find almost everything you need in the forsale forums over on ls1tech.com and/or ebay. Some parts you'll probably want to replace with custom stuff anyway like the oilpan. If you're build a bling-bling show car, you'll probably want to use fancy S&P accessory brackets instead of the stock cast brackets. For wiring, you can buy custom harness from someone like Speartech, buy a used harness and pay someone like Speartech to convert it to a retrofit harness, or buy a used harness and hook it up yourself. The LS1 harness is almsot standalone as it is--it's only 5 connectors between the LS1 engine/PCM harness and the rest of the car, and there are plenty of wiring digrams for how to hook it up. You are basically just hooking it up to relays and fuses. The most popular harness/PCM is 99-02 Fbody, but any LS1/LS6 computer and harness will work.

I found a video of the LS2 with the carb. online. They installed the LS2 Hotcam and LS2 CNC heads and claimed a nice 505hp with 455 ft (at the rear wheels) daily driver.

Also during my search I found LS2 crate engines (EFI) for $5600 in numerous places. The wife gave me the go ahead to snatch one up so that's exactly what I am going to do.

I wanted to thank everyone for the posts in the thread. The only questions I didn't really get answered is; when using the LS 440/364 do you still need an ECM? I hate wiring and that's why I thought the carburetor model might be better suited for me.
From what I gathered here and on LS1tech, everyone thinks the EFI is the better route to go.

Rich

Hey Jim, I didn't mean to come off as attacking you...
Nor did I intend to jump down your throat, Ron. I was just looking for more hard info. Your followup post provided exactly that.

This whole subject (efi retrofits and LSx engines is one I am very interested in, and also an area where our collective public knowledge here at Team Camaro is both lacking and unorganized.

Let's hear more?

Rich, from what I've read, the 434/364 is a carburated 6.0, no fuel electronics required, tho I'm not sure how the ignition is handled, as I don't think this block has anyplace to put a distributor, or even a mechancal fuel pump.

Has anyone mounted an EFI fuel pump inside a fuel cell, like a Harwood or RCI. The suggetion is keep the pump in the tank... appreciate your thoughts

Rich, from what I've read, the 434/364 is a carburated 6.0, no fuel electronics required, tho I'm not sure how the ignition is handled, as I don't think this block has anyplace to put a distributor, or even a mechancal fuel pump.

Still no word back from GMPP. I plan on calling them around 10:00am to see exactly what would be required to make this engine run.
Here is the Video (]http://www.streetlegaltv.com/index.php?stream=http://www.streetlegaltv.com/video/racecoverage/superbowl/GM_Performance.flv&playlist=1) I found with the LS engine. Other than the valve covers you can't tell this is an LS motor.
It must have an ECM of some type because this engine doesn't have a disributer.
Interesting to say the least.

Rich

Jim, your exactly right, we don't have enough info here on TC about this kind of swap. I really think this is the future for engine swaps in these 1st gens. LS1tech is a great site, but they only have a few threads about swapping an LS motor into a 1st gen camaro. Most of the info over there is for 3rd gen F body's.

Maybe I'm wrong but I see so many posts with guys asking about the reliablity of thier cars after doing a cam swap or head modifications.
It would be great to have a 500 RWHP 67 camaro that gets 28mpg and almost never needs a tuneup.
It would be just as nice if all the information for the swap was here at TC. :thumbsup:

JMHO.

Rich

I just talked to Gilbert Chevrolet (Salee) and it just so happened that the parts guy had a 69 awaiting one of these LS 364/440 Carb. motors.

To make this motor fire you need to use a MSD 6LS-2 Module. Summit has them for $352.00. He said they just dynoed one of these engines last week @720hp using the hot cam and cnc heads from GM.
Other than that you need an aftermarket oil pan (S&P) and a set of headers.
Motor: $5,050
Shipping $ 160
Ignition: $ 352
Oil pan $ 225
Headers: $ 500
Carb. $ 400

Total costs, $ 6,600
For about half the costs you could hunt the forums and ebay your way through most of everything listed.

Add another $4,000 for EFI, ECM, drive by wire pedals ect ect ect.


Rich

This whole subject (efi retrofits and LSx engines is one I am very interested in, and also an area where our collective public knowledge here at Team Camaro is both lacking and unorganized.

How about an "EFI" forum?

Alright enough talk, I pulled the trigger and ordered the motor.:hurray:
I decided to get the 364/440 and later if I I decide to go EFI it wont be a big deal.

I will post up a few pics when the motor arrives, they said it would be here Tuesday or Wednesday.
Thanks again to everyone who posted.

Team Camaro rocks! :beers:

Rich

Add another $4,000 for EFI, ECM, drive by wire pedals ect ect ect.
Rich

Depends on how you do it. If you go with mostly stock used LS1/LS6 parts, you can do EFI under $1000. And you don't need drive-by-wire--any LSX engine can be adapter to a cable throttlebody like LS1 4th gen Fbodies.

Depends on how you do it. If you go with mostly stock used LS1/LS6 parts, you can do EFI under $1000. And you don't need drive-by-wire--any LSX engine can be adapter to a cable throttlebody like LS1 4th gen Fbodies.

don't forget to add in the tuning software costs, so you can tune it. That's $600 or more usually. If you do a custom harness to eliminate all the extra crap you don't need add another $400+

Jody

Jody, should we meet in the back room and lobby (again) for a new forum specifically for EFI and modren engine retrofits?

I'd volunteer to mod it, but you are really more our expert on this. Perhaps there's room for 2?

I do think there is a need. LS1tech, lat-g, and pt.com are great resources, but they cover a lot of ground, we need soemthing here specific to firstgens, covering aftermarket efi as well as TPI, LT1, and LSx conversions.

What should we call it?
We need a good name before we pitch it to Al.

Jody, should we meet in the back room and lobby (again) for a new forum specifically for EFI and modern engine retrofits?

I'd volunteer to mod it, but you are really more our expert on this. Perhaps there's room for 2?

I do think there is a need. LS1tech, lat-g, and pt.com are great resources, but they cover a lot of ground, we need soemthing here specific to firstgens, covering aftermarket efi as well as TPI, LT1, and LSx conversions.

What should we call it?
We need a good name before we pitch it to Al.


I like the idea, and you can mod it. I'd be glad to throw in as much info as I can, I've tuned and installed factory and aftermarket systems.

As for a name, no real idea. I see something like modern engine swaps and EFI conversions for your classic ride. Could use a short catchy name though.

Jody

LS1tech is a great site, but they only have a few threads about swapping an LS motor into a 1st gen camaro. Most of the info over there is for 3rd gen F body's.


Gotta disagree with that, there are dozens of 1st gen swap threads. Far more than 3rd gen swaps on that site. When you think about it, I'll bet there are many more 1st gens with LS1s now than 3rd gens.

But, swapping these LSX engines into any chassis is about the same format. Same wires to hook up, same fuel system components, etc... 1st gens are the easiest to do since there is a plethora of available off-the-shelf swap parts now.

Don't be scared of EFI, the drivability/tunability and fuel economy are worth it over a carb.

Also, those GM hotcams are junk compared to aftermarket cams ;)

Jody, should we meet in the back room and lobby (again) for a new forum specifically for EFI and modren engine retrofits?

I'd volunteer to mod it, but you are really more our expert on this. Perhaps there's room for 2?

I do think there is a need. LS1tech, lat-g, and pt.com are great resources, but they cover a lot of ground, we need soemthing here specific to firstgens, covering aftermarket efi as well as TPI, LT1, and LSx conversions.

What should we call it?
We need a good name before we pitch it to Al.

Thanks guys!! :thumbsup: For the past 4-5 years I have been messing with EFI and it would be great to have a place here (instead of going to another board) for all of those posts to be housed.

EFI is really fun if you are comfortable with computers, electronics, etc. A place here dedicated to that sort of thing gets me pretty phsyched!!


How about "EFI in your classic ride"....

Good morning,
I scored a complete corvette efi setup on ebay yesterday. After recieving grief from lot of friends I decided to give the FI a try:noway: .
I will post up some pictures of everything tomorrow.

Good morning,
I scored a complete corvette efi setup on ebay yesterday. After recieving grief from lot of friends I decided to give the FI a try:noway: .
I will post up some pictures of everything tomorrow.

Good deal, I think you'll be glad you did. I know I am.

It's pictures like this that scare the hell out of me.


http://chevyhiperformance.com/projectbuild/0602ch_gen_13_z.jpg

LOL...That is a great pic.

It's pictures like this that scare the hell out of me.


Wow, I thought my wiring was messy...

Here's mine before I cleaned it up:


http://www.blown.net/ls1swap/DSCF3946.jpg

http://www.blown.net/ls1swap/DSCF3972.jpg

LOL...That is a great pic.
More like one WAY scary rats nest!!!

This whole subject (efi retrofits and LSx engines is one I am very interested in, and also an area where our collective public knowledge here at Team Camaro is both lacking and unorganized.How about an "EFI" forum?

I begged for that over a PT forum. PT is brakes, handling, etc., and we have organized forums for all that. Call it “EFI/Modern Engine Tech”. At NastyZ28, we call it “High Tech Retrofits”. Please Al, hear our cries!

Besides, did I mention the 99 Z28 in the driveway that is giving up its life so a 67RS may live?

Besides, did I mention the 99 Z28 in the driveway that is giving up its life so a 67RS may live?
You are going to fully ducument that, right, with words and pictures that might be shared with all. Hopefully, we'll have just the place soon.

More like one WAY scary rats nest!!!

It doesn't have to be that way! When I dropped the LS1 into the 35 chevy I had a local shop clean up the stock harness for me. It's not too bad when you get all of the "extra" stuff out of the way. The wiring for my holley commander is pretty simple, although an LT1 EFI setup is more simple than an LS1.

You are going to fully ducument that, right, with words and pictures that might be shared with all. Hopefully, we'll have just the place soon.

You can buy harnesses or have the stock one "simplified" for you. Then it's just plug and play.

I will document everything. And I plan on spreading all the harnesses (also the body control modules) out on the basement floor and modifying everything myself. That is $400+ saved. Me & my ohm meter will become good friends again. And eventually a copy of HP Tuners so I can set baseline. A guy in my local club is a tech rep for them, so I got that going for me.

1st good thing I did: I got a full set of factory service manuals for the 99 Z28 off Ebay for $50. Much more detailed then the old days – and like 10x the size (1 model, 3 books)!

I you make the new section my company will offer to sponsor it since we specialize in the LSX/T56 retrofit into the 1st gen.

Tyler

I you make the new section my company will offer to sponsor it since we specialize in the LSX/T56 retrofit into the 1st gen.

Tyler

Wow....Very nice!! :thumbsup:

Nice Move Tyler! :beers:

I'm placing an order with ATS for motor mounts, and other goodies this morning.

hold out for a ls7 ! dont you efi guys miss the sound of the air & gas whoosing into the carb? i understand the ease of just turning the key and its running perrrfectly.

Mine still has a nice WHOOSH with the LS1

Rich,
What headers are you going to run?

I purchased a set of the ATS S.S. race headers from boilmaker on lateral-g.net Brand new in the box and I saved $500.
Still need the motor mounts and ATS is supply those.

I remember when the wife spent $40K on a show horse, I bitched for six months. By the time i'm finished with this car, I will have spent damn near double that.

Guess I should have kept my mouth shut. :confused:

Rich

I you make the new section my company will offer to sponsor it since we specialize in the LSX/T56 retrofit into the 1st gen.

Tyler


Good on ya Dawg! :beers: