Apparently this seller (inadvertantly I am sure) forgot to put up a picture of his cowl tag. I thought I would help him out and post it here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290109925559

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/dreamweaver11/Cars%20in%20the%20Hunt/NOPO%20Reno/Cowl3.jpg

Here's some numbers off the trans:

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/dreamweaver11/Cars%20in%20the%20Hunt/NOPO%20Reno/Trans3.jpg

And the Axle:

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/dreamweaver11/Cars%20in%20the%20Hunt/NOPO%20Reno/RearAxle1.jpg

Who's records?

I'm serious, is someone keeping a list and if so why?

Is that something us Vette owners should be doing as well?

Rick:beers:

Who's records?

I'm serious, is someone keeping a list and if so why?

Is that something us Vette owners should be doing as well?

Rick:beers:

There are several TC, as well as CRG, members that keep track of the information on these cars just in case they show up somewhere down the line as something they were not originally as well as to gather overall information to learn more about these cars.

And, in case someone on this site was interested in a car like this, others might have already checked it out and save them the grief of bidding up a car that is made up to be something it isn't. Take this listing for example. I suppose one could get the impression that it is a COPO car. They buy the car, thinking that they found rare high-dollar car. Then, when they get it home they get educated and find out that it is NOT a COPO, but an X-11 dressed up to be one. They realize that they paid way too much for the car (even though they bought it for less than the seller has into it), and they try to figure out how to get out of being upside down in the thing.

They buy fake docs
They find 10 "experts" that will swear it's a COPO
They put on a few more correct parts - maybe find the correct rear end, correctly stamped / re-stamped motor (maybe even one that's out of a Camaro), and voila... it's a COPO.

They sell it for $150,000, make a grip, and someone else finds out the hard way it isn't real. And on it goes.

Pictures for documentation purposes are important, both for posterity as well as for protection of others:


Say, for example (and I'm being hypothetical here), that someone was advertising a #1 frame on restoration of a very valuable, ultra-rare car. And then, out of nowhere, a picture of it just "popped up".... maybe a picture something like this:
















http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/dreamweaver11/Cars%20in%20the%20Hunt/NOPO%20Reno/UnderDriverDoor1.jpg






Wouldn't you, as a prospective buyer, want to know ahead of time? I would. If I weren't skeptical, and I saw a picture like this, I would say it looks more like " #2 " :)

Could you explain with a little more detail, what on the trim tag would tell you which car it came from?

I've very curious about this because my sister has a 67 Camaro and I've got a 68 Vette.
I've never heard of anything about this on any of the Vette sites and we all know how us Vette owners are:D

I'm no tag expert but I thought the trim tag told you whether the car was a coupe or vert, the exterior/interior colors and where the body was made along with the package it has as in SS or Z2/8 Is there more?


Thanks for educating me

Rick:beers:

I'm no tag expert but I thought the trim tag told you whether the car was a coupe or vert, the exterior/interior colors and where the body was made along with the package it has as in SS or Z2/8 Is there more?


Thanks for educating me

Rick:beers:

The thing with trim tags are that they can either be reproduced or swapped from one car to another.

With this particular example, maybe nothing will ever come of it. But if you check out the "Z10" thread here:

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99191

You can see how keeping track of some of these cars/tags can help.

I was writing while you posted those two responces and I understand a bit more now, but is this list is for known bogus cars or a list of both good cars and bogus?

The thing with trim tags are that they can either be reproduced or swapped from one car to another.

With this particular example, maybe nothing will ever come of it. But if you check out the "Z10" thread here:

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99191

You can see how keeping track of some of these cars/tags can help.

I'll be back, I'll be reading for awhile..lol

Well, I just read that thread and have learned a lot.

Thanks for helping me understand all this guys, I really appreciate it.:beers:

Rick

There is one important difference between Camaros and Vettes, and maybe that's why the trim tag thing is not a problem on Vettes. There weren't any 6 cylinder, drum brake Vettes made, so they can't be converted into "special" cars. Of course, small block cars can become rare big block cars, but fundamentally, all Vettes came with the basic high performance options (SS type equipment) that wasn't on all Camaros.

Funny, I always thought the fraud and deception started with the Corvette, and trickled down to the Camaro and other "lesser" cars.

There is one important difference between Camaros and Vettes, and maybe that's why the trim tag thing is not a problem on Vettes. There weren't any 6 cylinder, drum brake Vettes made, so they can't be converted into "special" cars. Of course, small block cars can become rare big block cars, but fundamentally, all Vettes came with the basic high performance options (SS type equipment) that wasn't on all Camaros.

The trim tag thing has been a problem on '63-'67 Corvettes for years, until about two years ago when the NCRS published the "Trim Tag Book", which lets you spot a fake trim tag in about ten seconds. Midyear Corvette bodies were only built in two plants, and only two tag machines were used, and each character has unique macro characteristics that can't be duplicated, even by the pro tag fakers like Jim Clemens. :thumbsup:

This is exactly why we need the same data published on the camaro tags, IMNSHO,

Rich

This is exactly why we need the same data published on the camaro tags, IMNSHO,

Rich

Technically not feasible on Camaros. The trim tag on a Vette is unpainted, the Camaro one is. The paint covers all the details that you'd need to see. :(

Maybe we'll get down to forensics, or have they already?

Bummer.........

Maybe we'll get down to forensics, or have they already?

That's EXACTLY the approach that was taken on the '63-'67 Corvette tags; we have FAR greater detail than shown below, in much higher resolution, for every single character on the Corvette trim tag, for both the pre-stamped corporate information and for every single plant-stamped character. Every one of these macro details is unique and consistent to each character, and is unique to both the male and female dies used in only one machine. As Kurt noted, the Corvette tag is unpainted, and mounted inside the car, not subject to environmental deterioration. A fake tag in a Corvette may fly off a used car lot, but it will be spotted instantly if the car is ever NCRS-judged.

:beers:

There is one important difference between Camaros and Vettes, and maybe that's why the trim tag thing is not a problem on Vettes. There weren't any 6 cylinder, drum brake Vettes made, so they can't be converted into "special" cars. Of course, small block cars can become rare big block cars, but fundamentally, all Vettes came with the basic high performance options (SS type equipment) that wasn't on all Camaros.

Being a Vette guy and a Z guy I disagree about your Vette comments. Depending on year there were plenty low hp Vettes drum brake cars that could be faked into high hp Vettes.

Just in case inyone here is bidding on this car, here's another pic which might interest you (speaker cut outs under package tray):



http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/dreamweaver11/Cars%20in%20the%20Hunt/NOPO%20Reno/SpkrPkg2.jpg

And a little more of the reveal:

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/dreamweaver11/Cars%20in%20the%20Hunt/NOPO%20Reno/Schlock6.jpg

Under Trunk:

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/dreamweaver11/Cars%20in%20the%20Hunt/NOPO%20Reno/UnderTrunkDriverSide.jpg

Grill fit:

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/dreamweaver11/Cars%20in%20the%20Hunt/NOPO%20Reno/SchlockWork1.jpg

A wee bit much paint:

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/dreamweaver11/Cars%20in%20the%20Hunt/NOPO%20Reno/Schlock4.jpg

Steve, did you go see this vehicle? Therefore all the pics?

You're right Lawrence, I tend to only think about the late 60's and up.

Steve? Who's Steve? My name is Kalif..........

These pictures mysteriously appered on my computer so I thought I would share them with everyone here. :)

Yes, they are of this car.

Thanks for showing us the the decptive description. Guys like you are a true asset to team camaro.

Sorry... not trying to be annoying, just trying to be helpful. As stated in a previous post, these pictures are of this car. Just wanted anyone who might be looking at this car see some of what the car looked like 6 weeks ago.

Sorry Kalif.:rolleyes: Hey did you ever hear the routine on Bob and Tom about the comedian that called a car dealership to buy a Mercedes and wanted to be refered to as El Conquistador? :bow:

John Z,

Your earlier post about the the Corvette tags not being able to be faked may not necessarily be true. What is unique with the corvette has been the tag itself and not necessarily the fonts stamped for color/trim.

There is a guy out there now that has access to a industrial laser. He has developed a process that allows him to "erase" the trim and paint stamps off an original tag thereby returning the original tag an unstamped color/trim status. Since he can control what is to be erased the rest of the tag stays completely original allowing the same original tag to be "restamped" with the "new" paint color and trim information. Therefore the tag becomes undetectable since the tag itself is still a real/original tag. Even under 10 power magnification.

I hear he has also done several Camaro trim tags also.

If it's fake and fraud, it started with Corvettes!

The war between good and evil continues.

There is a guy out there now that has access to a industrial laser. He has developed a process that allows him to "erase" the trim and paint stamps off an original tag thereby returning the original tag an unstamped color/trim status. Since he can control what is to be erased the rest of the tag stays completely original allowing the same original tag to be "restamped" with the "new" paint color and trim information. Therefore the tag becomes undetectable since the tag itself is still a real/original tag. Even under 10 power magnification.



That sounds like a tall tale...

Tall maybe, Tale No!

Oh Grandma.... look what I found!



http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/dreamweaver11/Cars%20in%20the%20Hunt/NOPO%20Reno/TrunkPatchWelds1.jpg




Hope this got cleaned up in the last 3 weeks (there was already "...over $90,000 invested" at the time this was taken, so I'm not sure if the seller wanted to invest another $10-$20k in the front suspension just to finish it.) If this is all it takes to get it show worthy I should have mine done in a week or two.


http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/dreamweaver11/Cars%20in%20the%20Hunt/NOPO%20Reno/Susp1.jpg

Almost forgot about this one:



http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g279/dreamweaver11/Cars%20in%20the%20Hunt/NOPO%20Reno/AskAdam1.jpg

That sounds like a tall tale...

Why would it sound like a 'tall tale' :confused:

Ecimer-laser's are commonly used in ablation of thin and thick film E.D. Metals on Ceramic, and other fragile substrates (think Military use ;) ), fabrication in the Semiconductor industries.
I see no reason a pulsed-laser ablation process could not be used to selectively remove a raised stamp area to the point you could not tell through normal observation means that it was done. These things work in micro-inches.
I have worked with an electro-mechanical machining of 0.025 $$ material to achieve an microfilter (sub 5 micron) patern for a N2 in-line filtering system with a 3-axis 30~40K system. Using a newer 5-axis system would make this childsplay ...
We used an older 'Teksoft' software program in our CAD/CAM and we did this stuff everyday. The newer software systems would make this very easy to achieve.
These systems can be pretty expensive, but if 'someone had accress' to them they could do this stuff in small batches fairly easily.
BTW - this 'guy' wouldn't happen to be in the MI area would he ;)

Wonder if I could find a used ELA unit on eBay? ... :D

As always - JMHO's;
(signed) Mr. I would almost believe anything about someone faking stuff on expensive collector vehicles ...

Why would it sound like a 'tall tale' :confused:

Ecimer-laser's are commonly used in ablation of thin and thick film E.D. Metals on Ceramic, and other fragile substrates (think Military use ;) ), fabrication in the Semiconductor industries.
I see no reason a pulsed-laser ablation process could not be used to selectively remove a raised stamp area to the point you could not tell through normal observation means that it was done. These things work in micro-inches.
I have worked with an electro-mechanical machining of 0.025 $$ material to achieve an microfilter (sub 5 micron) patern for a N2 in-line filtering system with a 3-axis 30~40K system. Using a newer 5-axis system would make this childsplay ...
We used an older 'Teksoft' software program in our CAD/CAM and we did this stuff everyday. The newer software systems would make this very easy to achieve.
These systems can be pretty expensive, but if 'someone had accress' to them they could do this stuff in small batches fairly easily.
BTW - this 'guy' wouldn't happen to be in the MI area would he ;)

Wonder if I could find a used ELA unit on eBay? ... :D

As always - JMHO's;
(signed) Mr. I would almost believe anything about someone faking stuff on expensive collector vehicles ...

Yeah.............. what he said ------ funny, that is EXACTLY, word for word, what I was going to say.

John Z,

Your earlier post about the the Corvette tags not being able to be faked may not necessarily be true. What is unique with the corvette has been the tag itself and not necessarily the fonts stamped for color/trim.

Nope, it's not the tag itself (although it's physically different than passenger car tags); it's the individual character impressions, each of which has 10-20 totally unique macro striations/flaws/tool marks, both in the male and female dies, that provide the authentication capability.

:beers:

Why would it sound like a 'tall tale' :confused:

Ecimer-laser's are commonly used in ablation of thin and thick film E.D. Metals on Ceramic, and other fragile substrates (think Military use ;) ), fabrication in the Semiconductor industries.
I see no reason a pulsed-laser ablation process could not be used to selectively remove a raised stamp area to the point you could not tell through normal observation means that it was done. These things work in micro-inches.
I have worked with an electro-mechanical machining of 0.025 $$ material to achieve an microfilter (sub 5 micron) patern for a N2 in-line filtering system with a 3-axis 30~40K system. Using a newer 5-axis system would make this childsplay ...
We used an older 'Teksoft' software program in our CAD/CAM and we did this stuff everyday. The newer software systems would make this very easy to achieve.
These systems can be pretty expensive, but if 'someone had accress' to them they could do this stuff in small batches fairly easily.
BTW - this 'guy' wouldn't happen to be in the MI area would he ;)

Wonder if I could find a used ELA unit on eBay? ... :D

As always - JMHO's;
(signed) Mr. I would almost believe anything about someone faking stuff on expensive collector vehicles ...

So this would shrink and flatten the metal to the original state?

So this would shrink and flatten the metal to the original state?

Exactly. If you remove the raised material with the laser (which is already thin due to stretching to begin with), the remaining material will undoubtedly be thinner if reduced to the height of the surrounding area, if not cut through. Certainly restamping this same area would show the dissimilar thicknesses caused by this process.

If there is such a 'guy' and a 'process', i'd like to hear who and what the details are, that's all.

Sorry... hate to hijack the hijack, but was wondering what you all think this auction will go to. It's stalled at 38k for the last 24 hours or so.. any guesses? My guess is that it will go to 41k and stop. (BTW - That won't even come close to his reserve.)

Previous auction ended at 38k.......... it's back up again:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3AWNARL%3AMT%3A12&viewitem=&item=290113356839

Edit: Just read through the auction listing. In the last paragraph he says "No Trades". Then, in the same paragraph, he says "Interested in trades of equal value"? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Someone who had seen this thread contacted the seller to give him a heads up about the discussion here. Ac couple of days ago he started emailing me. In his communication he stated (among other things) that I was putting out bugus information about his car, that I was hurting his listing by my comments here, and tried to justify his rationale for his auction copy.

I talked with a couple of people on this board that know a lot more than I do about these cars. After I had gathered my facts I replied to the seller telling him the following:

In lieu of the fact that he calls it an L-72, and references L-72 throughout his ad without once mentioning that it is a clone that, by default, the ad is at best misleading. I also pointed out the discrepencies of his description of the condition of the car vs. what it really is were miles aprat, and that the car cannot be categorized as a #1 car by anyone's stretch of the imagination. My response was quite lengthy and detailed, and I even ran it by a knowledgeable, well respected member of this board prior to sending it off. I was factual and blunt in my response, but not callous. Just the facts.

In his response back to me he in essence admitted that he got duped when he bought the car and, without saying it outright, eluded to his understanding that it is not an L-72. I told him to give it 30 days, reword the ad to reflect the cars true condition and pedigree, and he would probably get more than his previous auction. Nevertheless he decided to relist it with the exact same copy text.

Kalif