505 TD with 6.8" Rods
10.6 to 1 compression
AFR CNC Chambered 325cc heads with 114cc/CC
Lunatic 60234 Voodoo Solid Roller-255/263 .680/.680 110 LSA installed at -2
CC Pro Magnum 1.7's
Dart 4500 Intake
Barry Grant- King Demon carb ( 1090 rated the tech actually says they flow 1300 CFM )
Hooker Comp headers 2" Primaries
3.5 inch exhaust with 2 3/4 H-pipe into Hooker AeroChambers turned down at rear end.
1/2 fuel line with Holley Black up the regulator mounted on the wheel well then 2 -6 feeds to the carb.
MSD Pro Billet distributor
MSD 6al with 7k chip
MSD variable timing control ( knob mounted in cab )
CSR Billet electric water pump
100 amp 1 wire

Transmission
Turbo 400 fresh with High end Hughes rebuild kit
2.48 stock planetaries
4l80e Drum with 34 element sprag
Hughes full manual valve body
Deep pan and trans cooler

Converter
4500 Pro Edge 9.5 inch
Looks like im getting about 3200 foot brake and 4k ish flash out of it


Rear End
Ford 9inch
Nodular case with Daytona pinion support
31 Spline Ford Racing Detroit Locker with Polished internals ( Nascar )
4.11 Polished gears ( Nascar )
Moser 31 Spline axles
Solid pads

Tires
Front- MT 28inch front runners
Rear -MT ET Street 28x12.5x15 ( 10 inch Tread )
on 8.5 inch Centerline wheels


So why does my MPH suck with this combo? I dont think the stall is looser on the big end either so it should be Higher. The engine makes plenty of TQ but for some reason not enough HP.

I got some 2 1/8 headers im eyeing.

at my weight and 102 MPH it shows me making around 600 HP :(

Message to self.. "Shut up!"
hehe

How heavy is your car, 8000lbs?

102mph in a typical weight Camaro is roughly 300rwhp or maybe 400 at the engine.

With 600rwhp, you should be around 130.

Do you think he can go from 0 to 102 in 6.75 seconds with 300 rwhp?

505 TD with 6.8" Rods
10.6 to 1 compression
AFR CNC Chambered 325cc heads with 114cc/CC
Lunatic 60234 Voodoo Solid Roller-255/263 .680/.680 110 LSA installed at -2
CC Pro Magnum 1.7's
Dart 4500 Intake
Barry Grant- King Demon carb ( 1090 rated the tech actually says they flow 1300 CFM )
Hooker Comp headers 2" Primaries
3.5 inch exhaust with 2 3/4 H-pipe into Hooker AeroChambers turned down at rear end.
1/2 fuel line with Holley Black up the regulator mounted on the wheel well then 2 -6 feeds to the carb.
MSD Pro Billet distributor
MSD 6al with 7k chip
MSD variable timing control ( knob mounted in cab )
CSR Billet electric water pump
100 amp 1 wire

Transmission
Turbo 400 fresh with High end Hughes rebuild kit
2.48 stock planetaries
4l80e Drum with 34 element sprag
Hughes full manual valve body
Deep pan and trans cooler

Converter
4500 Pro Edge 9.5 inch
Looks like im getting about 3200 foot brake and 4k ish flash out of it


Rear End
Ford 9inch
Nodular case with Daytona pinion support
31 Spline Ford Racing Detroit Locker with Polished internals ( Nascar )
4.11 Polished gears ( Nascar )
Moser 31 Spline axles
Solid pads

Tires
Front- MT 28inch front runners
Rear -MT ET Street 28x12.5x15 ( 10 inch Tread )
on 8.5 inch Centerline wheels


So why does my MPH suck with this combo? I dont think the stall is looser on the big end either so it should be Higher. The engine makes plenty of TQ but for some reason not enough HP.

I got some 2 1/8 headers im eyeing.

at my weight and 102 MPH it shows me making around 600 HP :(



Bigger headers arent the answer, lol.

Hooker aerochambers? I'd swap them out for Dynomax Ultra flow.....at least take them off for a pass and see if it picks up

and a pro edge converter? I like ATI for a good reason, they're the best!

Anyways, you need to give your combo a fighting chance here before you toss it in the garbage and start over....meaning go out there and put some passes on it, you've done very little jetting/timing or tuning otherwise, and have made a few shake down passes.

You need to put some passes on this combo and spend some time to sort it out prior to changing anything component wise....then we'll talk about making some changes after you've done some jetting/timing loops, have it launching right, and know where to shift it.

Yea, your makin just over 600hp (youre around 3500lbs - right?),
which is about 100hp short of what it should be makin with those
heads and solid roller, lots of 500 cube deals make like that make around 700hp.
I'd look at your converter, 4000 flash is about what my 10" is, but look at
how efficient it is on the big end. Also the fuel system, I'd stick a bigger pump on it.
I have a Products Eng. 310 pump, John (the owner) said its good for around 1000hp,
fuel system overkill is good! Otherwise, its just tuning... play with timing / jetting
at the track. My car ran 102mph first time out, but its run best 107.8, and my 502
made 625hp/627tq, I think with more track time you'll get 110+mph, and well in the 9s
at 135+mph.

My old system had the Hooker Aerochambers and I uncapped it,
with header extensions and it didnt loose any mph, so I dont think youre
exhaust system is hurtin you.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/1/web/709000-709999/709320_29.jpg

How heavy is your car, 8000lbs?

102mph in a typical weight Camaro is roughly 300rwhp or maybe 400 at the engine.

With 600rwhp, you should be around 130.

this is 1/8th mile, not 1/4 mile.

Jody

you're kidding, right?

With a very carefully tuned efi and a brick or 2 under the gas pedal, you might get 15.....

on second read... non-OD trans and 4.11's, make that 8 mpg!


MPH, not MPG.................. :D

Jody

smaller headers for off the line torque and a better rear ratio like 3:73 etc

yea my weight is 3700 lbs with me.

Bigger headers arent the answer, lol.

Hooker aerochambers? I'd swap them out for Dynomax Ultra flow.....at least take them off for a pass and see if it picks up

:) that was on the agenda now that i have a decent carb. With the King Demon and straight headers it ran 7.06 @ 103.84

This weekend i plan to get cranking compression and verify WOT o2 level.

Shawn

(6.76@102/9.11@116/1.51-60ft)

9.11 @ 116 is this 1000' ? 1/4 ? or what. (if you said above I missed it.)

Maybe just a typo ?

MPH, not MPG.................. :D

Jody

Ya, I see, that's what I get for not wearing my reading glasses....:D

At least I'm not the only one, Steve, that's 102 in an EIGHTH!!!

Compression test results in
1,3,5- 190 PSI
7,2,4,6,8- All about 182 PSI i mean dead on with each other.


I forgot to update my fuel pump data Edelbrock Billet quite flow with 160 GPH at 12volts 190 GPH using an alternator at 14.4 ( like me )

Good thing i did the compression test one of the bolts came out of my crank pulley and threw my alternator belt off must have been at the track. Might be why i ran 103 off the trailer then never again. It had to be gone at the track, ive been no where else.
__________________

(6.76@102/9.11@116/1.51-60ft)

9.11 @ 116 is this 1000' ? 1/4 ? or what. (if you said above I missed it.)

Maybe just a typo ?

I was wondering that also. 9.11 ET for the full quarter-mile?

I'd love to see the rpm/gear chart for a full run.

Methinks the 9.11 ET is a typo.

Bigger headers are the answer, lol.

Hooker aerochambers? I'd swap them out for Dynomax Ultra flow.....at least take them off for a pass and see if it picks up

and a pro edge converter? I like ATI for a good reason, they're the best!.

Brian...why the need for the "lol" deal...that`s a bit condescending don`t you think?
Have YOU ever tried the Aerochamber mufflers? I`ve seen them used and they run pretty good.
How do you feel about FLOW MASTER mufflers? seems you were pretty down on them...has that changed for some reason ? :rolleyes:

"I like ATI....they`re the best!" GUY ...he has what many consider to be a pretty good converter.

He has good parts to work with, what he doesn`t need is a new shopping list to get it done.

Dominate..67RS502 can steer ( now that`s a Texas pun right there :)) you in the right direction based on experience not just hear say.

IMO..the fuel pump may not be up to task.
And do a cranking compression test and let us know what it is..

I was wondering that also. 9.11 ET for the full quarter-mile?

I'd love to see the rpm/gear chart for a full run.

Methinks the 9.11 ET is a typo.

1000'

Shawn,

As Brian said, don't even sweat it yet. Too early to be concerned. Get some more passes on the car and get it to hook consistently and then start tuning. I've mentioned before, but my car only ran 7.10@100 (1/8th) the first time out. The car has since gone 6.58 and 107.4 MPH on a less than ideal track and I haven't touched the engine. It should go 6.4x's next time out with a better track surface, some shock tuning, and getting rid of a nagging miss.

Then I'll start to throw some HP at it ;)

Exactly. Not enough passes and you need to concentrate on 60 ft. right now.

My first night out
1.38
6.43 @ 105.93

best since
1.34
6.24 @ 109.33

Its ok dudes never liked me for some reason, but i still respect him.....


Anyway the bigger headers were a suggestion of a few people including Tony Mamo whom designed the head. I was thinking it might build some more upper end HP while bleeding of a tad of low end helping me hook up on a 10 inch street tire. Not just bigger is better ect. Also the design of the collector would seem to be less restrictive than the $150 elcheapos i have on there.

I plan to buy some new tires soon, i cant believe i can get the wheels up with these old dry rotted things.


No one mentioned if they thought 180 PSI cranking pressure was about right?


This Lunati has too much run out that actually introduces about .004 of lash right after it comes off the base and right before it opens the valve. This forces me to run as tight as .004 ( .008 at the low spot ) cold lash to eliminate excessive valve train noise when warmed up. Im thinking of having AFR get me a custom cam ground because of the issue with the run out. I mean what worse a place to introduce .004 of lash than right before the opening ramp.

I dont have the correct springs in the front either. SO i have some major purchases and upgrades still to do before i can start widdling at optimum ET's

Tony has talked me into changing the cam, I have a 2 piece cover so it wont be that difficult.


SHawn

Oh boy.

So first, cranking CR. Well, that will depend on the overlap, and where the cam is in the engine. Since we don't have the same combo, who knows. The spread is fine, could be a little closer, but that will depend on valve lash to some extent.

Speaking of lash, don't worry about the core run out. Or the niose from the valve train! Set the lash on the base circle and forget about the noise. I agree the runout isn't a good thing, but you are going to get that with most manufactures. My Comp was better, but not by a ton! We sent one back cause it was WORSE!

Headers, what are they? 2" might be deemed a bit small, but I think the port match is more important. If the header is too small for the port, and hangs into the port, it's not a good thing! Especially at the top of the port where the flow is. The 2" Hooker comp is a good piece! A little port matching is all that's required.

You do now have a good fuel pump. But you have a crap regulator and need a good return system. Did you hear what RS502 said? Overkill is fine for a fuel system.

Tires, a roll bar, etc won't affect mph much. But jetting, timing, fuel system, exh flow and converter choice will.

Never heard of an Edge converter........

Peace!

Ron

this is 1/8th mile, not 1/4 mile.

Jody
Woops.
Thanks.. :clonk:

180 lbs cranking compression isn`t too bad, not ideal, 200-215 lbs for pump gas would be better IMO.

You have the cam 2 degrees retarded ? or installed @ 108 ?
A couple degrees advance say 2-4 would give a few more lbs.

You have a 2 peice cover should be fairly easy.

Whats the timing set at ? 36-38 degrees all in right off idle should be right.

Have you tried leaning out the carb some? a way fat mix will slow you down too.
A rool bar can help your ET

Traction,traction,tracktion....that`s the key, I believe you`ll get it sorted out tweeking what you have now.

Thanks for the responses so far,

Ron,
what do you get for your cranking compression?

Just thought i would bring up my end gap a bit. Back in the day it was always suggested to open up your top end gap more than your 2nd because there is more heat there ect ect.

Now its suggested to set the top where they wont butt on your highest load and set the 2nd ring a little looser let so that it doesn't trap combustion gasses and lift the top ring breaking the seal and causing flutter. I set my top ring at .022 for a 250 shot of Nitrous and the 2nd Ring at .024, per new conventional wisdom. or .005 x bore and .0055 x bore. I have often wondered if this was the correct coarse of action.


I too think the cam phasing could have a little to do with the low cranking compression numbers. If i pull the balancer i was thinking of changing it 2 degree's advanced so there is a bigger swing to compare with.

I think the timing was high on those passes 38-39 with 28-29 initial. It was even higher and the car seemed to respond to lessening the timing. I had planned to roll timing out ( i have a controller in the cab ) until the car slowed down but didnt get enough passes.


Shawn

I personally like the O2 sensor deal. I use one myself.

Were you still going to do that?

Yea I am, but now i have to get the broken crank pulley bolt out of the $350 balancer ;)

I plan to complete that today then get the plugs back in and hook the O2 sensor up tomorrow and have my buddy watch the display ( cant get the rpm sensor to work with it ) and give an idea of where i am at during a complete street quarter mile pass.

On the cam i installed it 2 degree's retarded which yielded 108 intake centerline when i degreed the cam. Unless i read something wrong. I may have to pull the balancer to get the bolt out, if i do then im definately changing the phasing to advanced a bit.

Ron,
Get back to me on your cranking pressure. Also what you mentioned on the headers. I dont know how they match up with the heads but comparing the gasket on both i dont think so good. However i did grind the flange area of each port even with the inner header tube wall and transition it about 1 into the header. I went as far as i could and still have any weld to hold the tube on.

Here is the deal though, AFR recommends a Fel Pro #1412 header gasket which uses a Port Height (in):2.130 in. Port Width (in):2.130 in. These gaskets matched up perfectly with the heads, but swallowed the header ports so it leaked terrible. I had to get a set of 2" header gaskets to match my 2inch tubes. I though think the gasket and header have to restrict the flow of the exhaust port quite a bit when there is a 1/8th inch all the way around the exhaust port blocking with a wall, the exhaust flow. It is for this reason, that i figured the use of 2 1/8 headers would work better with these heads. Given the exhaust port dimensions and the recommended header gasket one would have to assume their use is implied.

Am i thinking wrong on that?


Shawn

How old is this convertor? Is it slipping? What rpm are you crossing line with.

its brand new just paid $700 for it. Not sure on the RPM ill watch it closes next pass out.


Shawn

Ron,
Get back to me on your cranking pressure. Also what you mentioned on the headers. I dont know how they match up with the heads but comparing the gasket on both i dont think so good. However i did grind the flange area of each port even with the inner header tube wall and transition it about 1 into the header. I went as far as i could and still have any weld to hold the tube on.

Here is the deal though, AFR recommends a Fel Pro #1412 header gasket which uses a Port Height (in):2.130 in. Port Width (in):2.130 in. These gaskets matched up perfectly with the heads, but swallowed the header ports so it leaked terrible. I had to get a set of 2" header gaskets to match my 2inch tubes. I though think the gasket and header have to restrict the flow of the exhaust port quite a bit when there is a 1/8th inch all the way around the exhaust port blocking with a wall, the exhaust flow. It is for this reason, that i figured the use of 2 1/8 headers would work better with these heads. Given the exhaust port dimensions and the recommended header gasket one would have to assume their use is implied.

Am i thinking wrong on that?


Shawn

Hey Shawn, as much as I hate to admit it, I've never measured the cranking compression! If I remember this weekend, I'll do that. (watch it come out real low and folks will say "that will never run")

I have the smaller 305 heads, and I don't know if the exh port is the same as yours or not. They do however recommend the same gasket.
I set the gasket on the head, then on the header and knew it would leak like crazy. So I bought the next smaller gasket and trimmed it to match the port. Problem solved.....but hard to do in the car.
when I matched the header tubes to the exh port, I had the exh valves out and the headers bolted to the heads. I reached up past the valve seat and scribed the port shape onto the header. Then ground the headers to match.
I got the tubes a bit thin though and last year when I blew the u-joint, the engine yanked so hard on the mounts that the right side header cracked all 4 tubes where I ground. Now I have some lovely welds on the outside of the header.......
Anyway, having an obstruction where the head meets the header just bugs me, so that's why I did the port match. At least one guy over on the Chevelle site agrees that it's the thing to do. So does my engine guy.

Ron

Ron,
Thanks you dont have to go to any special trouble but i would really like to know if you get a chance.

when I matched the header tubes to the exh port, I had the exh valves out and the headers bolted to the heads. I reached up past the valve seat and scribed the port shape onto the header. Then ground the headers to match.
I got the tubes a bit thin though and last year when I blew the u-joint, the engine yanked so hard on the mounts that the right side header cracked all 4 tubes where I ground. Now I have some lovely welds on the outside of the header.......

Ok what i did was grind the header out on the bench as far as i could leaving bare minimum for the tube to cling to the header. While it is in no way as accurate as you done it, it is opened up as far as it can go anyway. The way you done it might be the key to why its working so well.

Ok so given that the engine is in the car and there is no room to work magic like this, then would one not assume that using a header with an inlet port the same size or bigger ( 2 1/8th ) not be the best way to insure there are no exhaust flow issues? It basically sounds like someone can match the ports of a smaller header perfectly or just run the larger port inherently without restriction? If i am not thinking right i wont get offended by those that say so, sometimes i get stuck on a train of thought and its hard for me to deviate on my own.


In Rons bolting up the header to the head with the exhaust port out then port matching them where there is no ledge leaving the head would seem to be the absolute best way to do it. I mean if you are able to clear all resistance from the port to the header then why would you ever need a larger pipe?


Shawn

If you've got that cam sitting at 108 ICL that's not correct.

Mine is in at 109!

Ron

.........on that note.

Is it still proper thinking to say that "generally" you would install the cam to whatever position gives you the best cranking compression, and that this results in the best power?

That's not to say any cam is the "right" or best cam, it's just a method to maximize what you have.

my thoughts on that would be that it would be the best at however many RPM your starter turns your engine. That is to say that if you might install it 4 degree's advanced and pick up cranking compression but lose upper end

When talking about a 110 LSA, Harolds cams typically like to be installed anywhere between 102 and 106(this would obviously vary if it was cut on a 106LSA to begin with for example). But since your LSA is at 110, Id experiment with an ICL around these figures just to see if yours likes it as well. Harold has spoken on that, and enough others have mentioned similar that you can "assume" that at least in the majority of apps....this works.

With that in mind, having it at 108 may be holding it back. Then again....maybe not... As we all know, not all engines follow the same rules(Rons engine is "cheating" for example hehe). However, if yours does follow the "norm" to any extent, it just may like more advance. Id figure at least 106 if not 104(heck.....try 102 if it keeps improving). It obviously may do no good, but before buying another deal.....anything is worth a shot.

And FWIW, I havent heard anything negative thing about edge converters myself.....lotsa good though from the guys goin real fast with them!

If all else fails dialing it in as is, Im sure you know that it wouldnt be a bad idea to chat with Tony. He knows what his products like Im sure better than most of us that use them!

Hey Greg,

Haven't seen ya post in a while good to hear from you.
I think that the only way to arrive at the best cam timing is on the dyno. We would have done that with mine, but ran out of time. It's tedious unless you have a real fancy timing gear setup that allows accurate changes w/o going through the whole degreeing process each time.
I'm running a Manley timing setup and the timing was changed with the offset bushing.
I, like Shawn, set mine back to try to kill a bit of bottom end due to the small tires and plenty of cubic inches.

Now that it hooks great, I wondered aloud to my engine guy about advancing it back to 106....where the cam card said to run it. (this would be 4 deg adv) He didn't think it would care. Something about the cam isn't big enough to want to be advanced.
BTW....my Comp is also on a 110 LSA.

I personally think it would like it.

I suppose I could trust the gear, crank and cam accuracy and just put in a 0 degree bushing and see what happens. Who knows, now that I have a taller rear gear, it might respond.

But like you said, it's one of those "it depends" deals. And I'm not talking about old folks diapers......

As always, fun stuff.

Ron

Thanks for the post both of you.

I have heard nothing but advance my cam so after my little street race tomorrow thats exactly what im going to do.

Ill probably go +2 which would be 4 degrees from where I am now and try that. after reading what people have to say on harolds cams and the subject in general it could be the source of my idle and carb fouling woes too. At least a contributing factor.

Ron,
It stands to reason that since you now have a taller gear that advancing the cam might actually yield improvements due to lowering your TQ speak and helping at shift recovery and the whole rpm range shift. Since your crossing the line at a lower RPM ect.

Its ok dudes never liked me for some reason, but i still respect him.....


SHawn

Who is that referring to?

I would hope you aren't referring to me, as i respond to the majority of your posts in an effort to help you sort your car out.

I may be a little crude in my wording some days, i apologize, i do this for a living and a hobby, so sometimes i just cut to the chase and tell ya what i think.

When it comes down to it there are alot of guys on here that know what they're talking about, alot of them have fast rides.....one thing i know for certain is that building cars by committee doesn't work. Yes its good to seek alot of opinions, but i see you being very quick to change your approach based on someone with a names opinion, rather then fallowing the advice of those who have done it.

Tony might know alot about cylinder heads, but throwing things out there like "the headers are too small" shows me this guy didnt put much thought into it. There are a thousand reasons to why a car might not MPH....my approach was to limit the in-expensive variables first......but also give you a few parts to look at when you are ready to make a change.

Thanks for the comments,

I also realize that what might gain peak power on a dyno, may not necessarily accelerate the car quicker through out a whole quarter mile. I understand that the complexities of weight, drag, TQ multiplication, gearing, shift recovery, average HP, and average TQ have more of an effect on ET than changing a part to make a little more peak power.

Since i am limited only to my experience i try to gather all the available data and crunch it then make a decision of how to proceed based on how I interpret that data.

I thank all who contribute to my questions and threads.

DF,
Im sure you have to put up with stupid questions and assuming customers all day so its a wonder you even come in here to help people at all!!

Bottom line in my book is you don't have nearly enough passes, tuning loops, weather logging on the combo to make ANY educated decisions concerning changes.

Suspension is what you need to devote your attention to at this time. Until the car is repeating within .01 in the 60' you are wasting your time on changes.

Hey Shawn, I have been following your post for a while. Let me first state I am not a famed eng builder or anything great like that. I am a Pro. Tech and have built some nice cars. Also I am not suggesting you change a thing. I believe that you need to hook better first. You obviously make more power than traction at this point. I see a lot of dicussion on eng. combo but not much on suspension. The one thing I am curious about on your eng. combo is why you used the AFR 325 instead of the 305? I am only guessing you plan on using nitrous at some point. I would like to see your results with the new tires and suspension tuning. Please post the results. Good luck

Bottom line in my book is you don't have nearly enough passes, tuning loops, weather logging on the combo to make ANY educated decisions concerning changes.

Suspension is what you need to devote your attention to at this time. Until the car is repeating within .01 in the 60' you are wasting your time on changes.


I was looking at my 1/8 mile times from when I first ran the new 498.
Mid 6's @ 104!

The only thing I've done to the engine since then was to change jets 1 size bigger.

The rest has come from the exh, converter, and the radial slicks.
So near 3 tenths and 3mph.

Ron

Thanks for the comments,


DF,
Im sure you have to put up with stupid questions and assuming customers all day so its a wonder you even come in here to help people at all!!

LOL.....its mostly Bosses that i have trouble with, although i'm sure thats no surprise, lol.