My set up:
350 60 over
flat top pistons
13.473 compression
4.060 bore 3.48 stroke
Edelbrock preformer rpm, 750 holley dp
041 heads anglemilled 50cc 2.02 int 1.60 ex
reed m2384 cam duration at .050 int 258 ex 262
running dur int 289 ex 296
valve lift in .550 ex .531 @ 1.50 rr
1 5/8 headers
12 bolt 4.11 posi (changing to 4.56)
turbo 350 4000 (possible stall change to 5000)

Also just bought a set of patriot head 64 cc 2.05 in 1.60 ex 195 cc runners,
any chance I could get one of you to dyno in current format and with changes? Thanks, havent bought stall yet as I'm tired of buying stall converters.

How do you arrive at 13.473:1 compression using a flat top piston and a 50cc head? Compression to three decimal places?
Have you made any other modifications to this motor that might affect the power, or is it like it came from the factory?

I used this web site http://kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp. piston head volume -.5, gasket thickness .039 gasket bore 4.166 deck clearance 0 stroke 3.48, showed up as 13.473 on a flat top 50cc head. Just what is listed above.

When you use the K-B calculator you need to input the head volume in the same context as the chamber volume, i.e. +cc for dished, -cc for domed. Your compression would actually be 12.591:1 as calculated by K-B.

and its not .5 cc
its 5 cc

probly full of errors
couldn't find your al heads, just stuck in wp sports2's, not 2.05 sorry, but 64cc

How do you keep 12.6:1 compression when you switch from 50cc to 64cc heads? I would think it drops to something like 10.5:1.

told ya it was probly full of errors, I'll check it

check me now nova

if the pistons are flat tops would the volume be 0? Thanks for the input 77wolf10.85. What do you think about the converter stall?

The valve reliefs on a flat top are usually negative 5 cc. Without a part number that's what I went by anyway.
To me, you don't need that much stall speed, look at your torque curve. You are good to go at 2000 RPM. Get a 3000 in order to use your torque range, it'll probly hook up at 2200-2500.
Each converter/engine combo behaves different. Like my car with a 5000 converter, I can't hardly hold it back at 3400. I have to have my people coach(especially a dude name Ronnie) me each time I go to the track to hold the brake down like my life depends on it cuz it's pulling so hard and I don't want to red light. Hopefully this year I'll be past that stage in my learning curve. And then I had a 4000 behind a 355 that was so sloppy you could take it to 4500.

I'm not into converter sizing, it's a touchy subject and you can spend all the money you want on one, depends on your objective. There's lots of guys here on TC that can help you pick the right one, or at least tell you better than I can.

Is this a build in progress or running? What other pieces does your engine use?

This is running, my question orginated when I posted my ets from my last outing, 13.244 at 100.56. This is my third stall converter, now at 4000, previous 3000 and 2500. I was dissapointed in my trap speed and et, some of the et is me sleeping at the light. I was leaving at 3800 and shifting at 7000, it was still pulling at each shift, dont know trap rpm, (didnt look) first time running, just enjoying the ride but like everone wanting to get the most for the leaset. What other engine pieces are you inquiring about? Thanks again for all the help!

Bottom end pieces and valve springs, just wondering if you had the stuff to turn up to 7000, cuz it looked to me that was about where it would pull to.

Did the higher stall speed help or hurt?

I think going to 4.56's is going to help you a bunch.

Wolf has 4.56, and had a zz4 350 ran 11.70's. attached video of it. It won't turn past 6200, needs beehive springs, but it's an awful stout 350.
http://s152.photobucket.com/albums/s178/TimNotWolf/?action=view&current=MOV01067.flv
Now have 412 SBC NA terrible strong and BLBMUW(breakin loose bad mods underway)

I hear ya on enjoying the ride and sleepin at the light. I've been accused of taking a lunch break myself.

And you're most welcome.

Vortec rods, arp rod bolts,1.46 valve springs. This is a new motor and the 4000 stall was tci recommended. I had the other stall in first and went back to my old problem, bogging which I thought was the carb, when I switched to the other stall, no more bog and great idle. So I still dont know if the slow et and trap speed is the stall or am I expecting to much? I'm putting the 456 in next week and will see what it runs. Then I will switch to the patriot aluminum heads, do some tuning and check back of the desk top dyno once I'm positive about the compression numbers. Then I will tap the board concerning the stall speed, as I cant figure out anywhere esle to look. I'm running cal tracs and mt street radials, hooking is not the issue. I'm looking for mid to low 12's am I unreasonable?

I think the aluminum heads and 4.56 will definitely get you into 12's if you're making low 13's with your iron heads and 4.11's.
Do you have any flow numbers or a webpage link for the patriots so I can redo the dynosim?
What ignition do you have and what's your timing at?

HERE ARE THE FLOW NUMBERS AS TESTED ON OUR SUPER FLOW BENCH.

INTAKE: 400L/223 500L/252 600L/263 700L/270 750L/272

EXHAUST: 400L/170 500L/183 600L/184 650L/185

timing at 34 currently.

better flow than sportsman
Is your cam mech? I ran it hydraulic. The part# you gave isn't helping me on the reed website

solid, turns out that was the serial number???? do you need additional cam info?

13.20's @ 100 mph is way short of the potential of your setup. My computer is predicting 12 flat @ 110 through the mufflers in a 3600# car. With the new heads and open exhaust it feels you should be running 11.30's @ 116.

Yeah, more info on cam.
What pistons... part#

Yeah, onovakind, I think it will do good. 12's no sweat with his small headers and mufflers.

Dont know the part number or correct spelling on the pistons hypertectic? cam-running duration in 289 ex 296, lobe lift in .367 ex .354, valve lift in .550 ex .531 @ 1.50rr, valve setting in ..180 in .020 seat pressure 130-150 open pressure 330-350 duration @ .050 tappet height in 258 ex 262. moly rings, 1.5 roller rockers. Any ideas for correction?

Dont know the part number or correct spelling on the pistons hypertectic? cam-running duration in 289 ex 296, lobe lift in .367 ex .354, valve lift in .550 ex .531 @ 1.50rr, valve setting in ..180 in .020 seat pressure 130-150 open pressure 330-350 duration @ .050 tappet height in 258 ex 262. moly rings, 1.5 roller rockers. Any ideas for correction?


yes, correct spelling is hypereutectic:D

I've been at a baccalaureate, haven't messed with it.

Kinda need some ICL, LSA numbers, or the cam part#.
Hyper pistons do good, you can run tighter bore clearances with them but you have to run looser ring gaps. I had one break the top ring land off an engine I horse traded for, it probably had something to do with 8000 rpm operation courtesy of my son. It didn't tear anything up. I hear guys lambast them, but you have to wonder if they fit their rings right and how much juice they put.
They were developed especially to run tighter bore clearances to cut down on oil burning on cold engines flunking EPA tests on brand new engines with cast pistons. They are better than a cast piston for sure.

Looks like a thumper. I used a solid lifter, let me know if it is roller or hydraulic instead.

http://www.hotrodink.com/Images/data/546/1paperman1.jpg

531#ft @ 3500 rpm from 360 cubes? That would require a BMEP of about 222.5, well into the range of a Nascar engine.

It may be related to the compression ratio. It was well over 12:1 with the chamber down to 50cc

This was my buddys round track motor, thus the pistons and moly rings and compression. So if the hp and torque numbers are correct or at least close, what do you make of the et and trap speed?

rhamm1320,
If I swap to the aluminum patriot heads with 64 cc combustion chambers but flow way better, it will lower my compression to 11.83 am I looking at less hp and torque?

with 64 cc heads your CR is 10.5:1
And your engine is a lot stronger with the patriots, and you will be able to crank up your timing with them which will be worth tons of power.

My dynosim absolutely disagrees with the graph rhamm1320 has posted. But I figure both are just simulations, and both are based on incomplete input until we have more cam specs.

Onovakind, I have had my dynosim less than a week. You see me screwin up yell at me ok? Right now I have his combo in there w/ mec cam and al heads, but I think I screwd it up w/ pro iteration, any tips? I can't find where it shows alterations after iterations, it says best 6 best2 at the top, is that it?

It may be related to the compression ratio. It was well over 12:1 with the chamber down to 50cc

The compression ratio isn't going to make that much difference.

This was my buddys round track motor, thus the pistons and moly rings and compression. So if the hp and torque numbers are correct or at least close, what do you make of the et and trap speed?

I think you're way down on power, if you were even close to the 530#ft and 480 hp you would be easily running in the low 11's. You keep dribbling little bits of information out about your setup, and every one of them affects the simulation. Do you run any accessories? What kind of exhaust system dimensions do you use? Got a low-windage crankcase?

EA3.2 sees it like this with the Patriot heads, 108° LSA, 1-5/8" x 30" street headers with an 8" collector, water pump, electric fan, low windage crankcase. The compression is not as high as you think, only 10.50 with a 64cc head.

RPM···········2500····3000····3500····4000····4500 ····5000····5500····6000····6500····7000
Brake_Tq······278·····385·····409·····422·····433· ····432·····423·····401·····375·····325
Brake_HP······132·····220·····273·····321·····371· ····412·····443·····458·····464·····433
Exh_Pres······.0······.0······.0······.0······.0·· ····.0······.0······.0······.0······.0
Int_Vacuum····.1······.2······.3······.5······.7·· ····.9······1.0·····1.2·····1.4·····1.5
Vol_Eff_%·····66.8····82.9····87.9····91.5····95.4 ····97.4····98.3····97.4····95.8····92.9
Actual_CFM····187·····286·····355·····418·····491· ····556·····614·····660·····702·····733
Fuel_Flow·····68.5····105·····130·····153·····180· ····203·····224·····241·····257·····268
A/F_Mix_Qal···97.4····100.0···100.0···100.0···100.0· ··100.0···100.0···100.0···100.0···100.0
BSFC··········.517····.476····.475····.475····.484 ····.494····.507····.526····.554····.618
BSAC··········6.486···5.971···5.964···5.959···6.07 0···6.192···6.355···6.599···6.944···7.751
Friction_HP···23······33······43······56······72·· ····91······113·····138·····169·····217
Mach_#········.193····.231····.270····.309····.347 ····.386····.424····.463····.501····.540
Piston_Spd····1450····1740····2030····2320····2610 ····2900····3190····3480····3770····4060
Piston_Gs·····403·····581·····790·····1032····1306 ····1613····1952····2323····2726····3161
Overlap_%VE···-5.3····5.4·····5.6·····5.0·····5.3·····5.0·····4.7 ·····3.6·····3.2·····3.0
Int_AvgVel····135·····162·····188·····215·····242· ····269·····296·····323·····350·····377
In_InertiaPrs·.5······1.0·····1.6·····2.1·····2.5· ····2.7·····2.8·····2.7·····2.5·····2.3
In_ResTunPrs··0.0·····0.0·····0.0·····0.0·····0.0· ····0.0·····0.0·····0.0·····0.0·····0.0
Ex_AvgVel·····170·····204·····238·····272·····306· ····340·····374·····408·····442·····476
ExTun_Prs·····.4······-.7·····-1.1····-.9·····-1.5····-1.6····-1.5····-1.2····-1.1····-1.2

Wolf, you have email.

onnovakind67,
ea3.2 sim assumsions are right for the future, but the current heads are 041 angle milled to 50cc. Also, please point out the differance in data to achieve the differant compression numbers you get vy what I get. with the patriot I get 11.835 compression based on cc volume 64cc piston head volume -5,gasket thickness .039, gasket bore 4.166 cylinder bore 4.060 deck clearance 0 stroke 3.48 rod length 5.7? (not positive about rod length.

Bottom line if we assume the least, 464 hp and 433 torq, what could we conclude the problem is in the et and trap speed?

onnovakind67,
ea3.2 sim assumsions are right for the future, but the current heads are 041 angle milled to 50cc. Also, please point out the differance in data to achieve the differant compression numbers you get vy what I get. with the patriot I get 11.835 compression based on cc volume 64cc piston head volume -5,gasket thickness .039, gasket bore 4.166 cylinder bore 4.060 deck clearance 0 stroke 3.48 rod length 5.7? (not positive about rod length.
Bottom line if we assume the least, 464 hp and 433 torq, what could we conclude the problem is in the et and trap speed?

You are using the wrong sign on the 5cc volume of the eyebrows in the piston. If you enter it as a dish rather than a dome you will get 10.50:1 for your compression. If you show it as a dome, you get about 11.9:1.
Bottom line - don't assume. If you are making the power, the trap speed will be there. Elapsed times are a function of traction and chassis engineering.

Found more cam specs lsa 106, tdc ovlp 78.9, in open btdc 42.9, ex close 36.0 atdc, intake center line 100, exhaust center line 112, in close 66.1 abdc, ex open 80 bbdc. Maybe this will help accuracy, still just learning, thanks for all the input, maybe I'm getting closer to a solution?

Don
I didn't have internet last night, was at a motel in BFE that had a g router, and my card is b. In BFE of all places to get internet faster than usual. Of coarse alladam stores were closed so I couldn't go buy a new card. But I did get to study iterations on Dynosim:D

Go to cutepdf.com http://cutepdf.com/
Download.
It was easy as pie when I did it 2 years ago, and was free. Has worked flawlessly ever since.

Any stinkin doc on your screen that has print capability....
print.... select cutepdf as your printer
select destination in your hard drive
And you got a pdf
Works on internet screens too
But just like Adobe acro, it uses a ton o memory, so you have to let it grind it's gears sometimes or you'll pissoff your pewtr.
later

Don
I didn't have internet last night, was at a motel in BFE that had a g router, and my card is b. In BFE of all places to get internet faster than usual. Of coarse alladam stores were closed so I couldn't go buy a new card. But I did get to study iterations on Dynosim:D

Go to cutepdf.com http://cutepdf.com/
Download.
It was easy as pie when I did it 2 years ago, and was free. Has worked flawlessly ever since.

Any stinkin doc on your screen that has print capability....
print.... select cutepdf as your printer
select destination in your hard drive
And you got a pdf
Works on internet screens too
But just like Adobe acro, it uses a ton o memory, so you have to let it grind it's gears sometimes or you'll pissoff your pewtr.
later

Thanks, I will have to access this from home as our security firewall will not let me open the link . Will try later this evening.
don

http://www.matmoranmotorsports.com/ETcalculator.htm
put 3320# and 465 hp into this calc
that's what my car weighs, that's about what the engine in the pg 6 attachment with square legends makes, and it ran 11.70's, like this calc says. For what that's worth.

You can do 12's easy w/ your new heads.

As for why you run 13.2's now. Idunno.

Thanks wolf,
Thats the million dollar question, why the 13.2 with my combo. I guess I could loose .5 off my reaction time with a little practice, that would put me in the 12's.

Reaction time isn't a part of the elapsed time. The elapsed time counter only starts when your wheels leave the beam.

Where do you think the problem lies?

Reaction time isn't a part of the elapsed time. The elapsed time counter only starts when your wheels leave the beam.

Yup, what he said.

If I run 12.0 and you run 12.0, and I sleep .001 longer than you do, you win. But we both ran 12.0 ET.

Last year I slept .616 one time and then ran down and beat a 11.30 car. If I'd slept .750 he'd have won. But I still ran 10.85, and he still ran 11.30
me him
r/t .616 .167
60 1.593 1.659
330 4.47 4.652
1/8 6.91 7.196
mph 100.12 96.26
1000 9.038 9.412
1/4 10.85 11.307
mph 124.1 117.41

BY 1 car length

Post your timeslips paperman

I see, that makes it worse. Thought I had an idea,lol. I only got to run 4 times, first day track was open for test and tune, 100's of cars.
rt 60 330 1/8 mph 1000 1/4 mph
.540 1.825 5.412 8.425 81.27 11.058 13.3 100.30
dq 1.927 5.559 8.586 80.98 11.230 13.48 99.80
.516 1.793 5.375 8.383 81.48 11.009 13.24 100.56
.689(zz) 1.814 5.408 8.416 81.44 11.053 13.29 100.23

Hey, low 13's is nothin to be ashamed of. New Vettes barely do that.

Your engine is just running out of breath. You need those patriot heads on it. You'll be in the 12's easy.

Your 60' time isn't bad at all for the heads you have now.
You get the flow up, timing up, compression down, and better bottom end torque, you'll see some lower 60' times.

Now thats good news. I'm putting the 456 in next week, then I'm going to the track. After that I will get the heads put on, so you think the stall will be alright then?

so you think the stall will be alright then?
I'm not going out on that limb, too many variables

speculate I wont hold you to it!