I'm still in planning and want to know what automatic tranny's out there are available with an overdrive and could handle racing and handle a BBC. I plan to bring that BBC up to 5 or 6 hundred hp.

On Summit I've seen:

4L80E
4L60E
2004R
700R4

The rest like TH400, 350 and glides don't have an over drive gear. I need an overdrive.

Can someone give me a brief on these tranny's I list?
I would like to know if they have overdrive, can be used with a brake and for that matter, can they stand up to drag racing. The Summit site doesn't detail if they have O/D. It just talks about the 1st gear ratio.

I'll probly use a 3800-4000 stall.

From what I have heard... the 4L80E or a gear vendors overdrive, behind a TH400 !

They are all overdrives. If you look at "trans families" it goes like this:

T350 --- 2004r---4L60e

T400--- 700r4---4L80e

While it would seem like the 700r4, being descended from the T400, would be stronger, thanks to aftermarket development prodded by the Buick Grand National guys, who's cars came with 2004r's, the 2004r can be built stronger less expensively than the 700r4.

So is the 4L80 and 4L60 stronger than the 2004r and 700r4?

And can you get them with a transbrake? Summit seems to only offer glides, 400 and 350's with brakes.

They are all overdrives. If you look at "trans families" it goes like this:

T350 --- 2004r---4L60e

T400--- 700r4---4L80e

While it would seem like the 700r4, being descended from the T400, would be stronger, thanks to aftermarket development prodded by the Buick Grand National guys, who's cars came with 2004r's, the 2004r can be built stronger less expensively than the 700r4.

Jim I'd argue the lineage on that one.
the TH350 devolved (got weaker) by morphing into the Metric 200. The M200 was the basis for the 200R4 tranny in BOP cars and Big Chevys that needed an overdrive. Chevy didn't like the 200R4 so much so they went back and borrowing parts from the 200R4 created a 700R4 tranny but it was prone to breakage behind a 305 V-8 up until Nov 1985 when they reworked it to be able to handle a 350 V-8 in a Camaro. The 4L60E is a 700R4 that has electronic brains instead of relying upon hydraulics to shift the thing.

The TH400 has a overdrive sibling in the form of the 4L80E. They share many parts in common. Another overlooked OD tranny now available over the counter as a GMPP is the six speed Allison tranny that they put behind the 500 horse 427 LS-x motor in the Corvette. It is heavy, requires a computer (just like the 4L80E and 4L60E trannies do) and is really expensive; but think about keeping a motor in it's power band with six forward gears.

The only trannies that belong behind a BBC are the 4L80e, and the Allison (school bus tranny).

Larger Dave

So is the 4L80 and 4L60 stronger than the 2004r and 700r4?

And can you get them with a transbrake? Summit seems to only offer glides, 400 and 350's with brakes.

The 4L60 and 4L80 may be stronger, dunno. They mostly are newer, and have computer controlled electronic shifting, hence the "e"

Dave, perhaps I got my lineage wrong, but that's how it was told to me, and what I have read from a number of different sources.

GearVendors Overdrive !

http://www.gearvendors.com/hrgm3s.html

Not sure why you would pay two grand or more for a GearVendors Overdrive when you can buy a level 3 200r4 from BTO for $1400.

The 700-R4 is a descendant (somewhat) of the TH350. The 4L60E is an electronically controlled version of the 700-R4.

The 200-4R is a descendant of the TH200. It doesn't share any parts with a TH350.

The 4L80E is basically an electonically controlled version of the Th400 with an OD added in front of the Th400 components.

Chevy didn't borrow parts from the 200-4R to make the 700-R4, the only shared components are basically the pump rotating parts and boost valves.

Both transmissions were released around the same time. 1981-1982

It costs more than $1400 in parts to make a 200-4R withstand a solid 600-700 HP BBC reliably, so any 200-4R trans that costs $1400 with those claims is suspect.

I recommend a 4L80E usually or a TH400 with Gear Vendors.

There isn't a cheap reliable option for a 600+ HP BBC.

There are transbrakes available for the 200-4R and the 4L80E.

The 700-R4 is a descendant (somewhat) of the TH350. The 4L60E is an electronically controlled version of the 700-R4.

The 200-4R is a descendant of the TH200. It doesn't share any parts with a TH350.

The 4L80E is basically an electonically controlled version of the Th400 with an OD added in front of the Th400 components.

Chevy didn't borrow parts from the 200-4R to make the 700-R4, the only shared components are basically the pump rotating parts and boost valves.

Both transmissions were released around the same time. 1981-1982

It costs more than $1400 in parts to make a 200-4R withstand a solid 600-700 HP BBC reliably, so any 200-4R trans that costs $1400 with those claims is suspect.

I recommend a 4L80E usually or a TH400 with Gear Vendors.

There isn't a cheap reliable option for a 600+ HP BBC.


I'm not asking for cheap. I just want to do the right thing.

My problem then with the 4L80E is that I don't have a computer in that car at all.
How do I over come that?

I just read that gear vendors web site.
I really like their power glide deal. That is what I'd like. According to what I read, the O/D is switched on electrically.

I'm going to look into this.

Mike,

I contacted the REAL Art Carr several years ago and he quoted me a 200-4R that would hold 800 hp!! I want to say between $2,000 and $2,500 back then..

And the beauty of using one is that it pretty-much goes in the same place a TH350 fits if I remember right.................Maybe the mount is farther back?????

I am fully expecting to blow my great old M-20 up that's behind my about 550 hp 496 once I ever get to driving it so have looked into this as well as a strong 9" rearend once I abuse my stock 12-bolt!!

And guys say they are getting 700's to live above 500 hp BUT you gotta show me b/c I'm from MO!!

pdq67

Mike,
You can get a full manual 4L80E. I built one recently and it is in the shop waiting on the customer to get it.

This eliminates the computer, however the controller cost about $800 total, and the full manual VB $400... so "I" would go with the controller, but some prefer the full manual setup.

My .02 is call the Real Art Carr at California Performance Transmissions http://www.cpttransmission.com/ He will set you straight and will have a tranny for whatever your application. I have spoken to him about an OD tranny for my Chevelle that I am putting behind a 540 with 700 hp/670 lb. ft torque in and he is going to build a 200R4 for me. I will be ordering in a few weeks and he told me the lead time was about two weeks. He spent a lot of time on the phone with me and is very knowledgeable and a good guy too.

Good luck

Mark

I only have about 1500 miles on my 200-4R...but they've been a fairly abusive 1500 miles :). No broke parts...yet.
The Grand National guys are running 9 sec cars with 200-4R's. They seem to be able to be built strong. Mine isn't a nine second ride, but it is a transbraked BBC...time will tell I guess how long it will last (by definition...).
I did my research on the 200-4R over on www.turbobuick.com (there is a good FAQ in the transmission section). They've pretty much worked the kinks out over there. There are several vendors on that site that can build a 200-4R to your needs.
The beauty of the 200-4R is that you don't have to cough up the money for the electronics of a 4L80E, and it will pretty much bolt up right in place with a TH400 crossmember (possible some pad modification needed).
I got mine from a guy named Brian Hofer on the Buick site, here's a link to one of his classifieds...a CZ valvebody is what I have and I like the shift points.
http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/parts-sale/216926-one-more-2004r-street-strip-trans-brake-nat-s-delivery.html
He was great to deal with. He sent me to Pat's Converters for a 10" 2900 rpm lockup converter which I also like very much. I got my carb linkage and dipstick from Bowtie overdrives.
If you wanted to go with a "brandname" builder, then I would go with www.cpttransmission.com This is the famed "real" Art Carr that others have already mentioned in this thread...he can build these transmissions strong as well, and has an established reputation.
My third choice would be a TH-400 mated to a GV unit. The upside is strength...the downside is cost and weight.

Scott

disregard

Monster transmissions at www.eatmyshift.com (http://www.eatmyshift.com) build stout 200r4s from what I've heard.

I heard the opposite. :confused:

Like I said earlier!! The REAL ART CARR!

And WE-4 too if I remember right..........................................

pdq67

To get a 200 R4 to handle serious power it will cost you around $2,500. The REAL Art Carr at CPT Transmissions has it priced for $2695 http://www.cpttransmission.com/parts.htm

I spoke with Chuck Johnson at Finish Line Transmissions in the Chicago Area yesterday. http://www.finishlinetrans.com/store/transmission.php He said a well built 4L80 with a Full Manual Valve Body (no computer required) goes for around $2,500. Nice guy and the guys at some other boards including thirdgen.org highly recommended him. He told it like it was and was very honest. He told me I can bring him a 4L80E core and he'll build it the way I want.

Many trans builders in the Chicago area have stated that The 200 4R needs big bucks to make it handle Big HP & Big Torque. Most have said it's $2,500 to get one to hold up to a 9 second Buick GN. For $2,500 bucks I would take a 4L80 w/ a full manual valve body over a 2004R any day. Almost all The GN's run 6 bangers and if you look at the turbo buick website virtually (the left side of it)all the featured cars run turbo 400's. A 4L80E is a turbo 400 with overdrive and shares many of the same parts as the turbo 400. Depsite what some will tell you there is no way a 6 cyl GN will make the torque of the MAMMOTH V8 Big Block cars on www.outlawsuperstock.com A very good friend of mine races in this class and his car has been raced during Super Chevy shows.

Guys please don't even mention the Metric 200 aka the Turbo 200 (just kidding). But the name Turbo 200 makes me cringe. That trans was the worst piece of garbage ever offered by GM bar none. Some 305 engines come close though. The Turbo 200 is crapolla!!

You want a serious 4L80 look at http://www.transmissioncenter.net/4l80e.htm It's $3,095. This thing will handle 1200 HP and a likely 1,000 ft. lbs of torque. There are guys that can build them like this for $3k all day long and they will hold up to serious big blocks with 572 cubes or 632 cubes which will produce more torque than a 231 V6 in a GN. Don't get me wrong I LOVE BUICK GN's!!

The 4L60 which is what the 700R4 was called right before GM made it into a 4L60E & 4L65E has a 3:06 first gear. The issue here is that the first to 2nd gear gap is huge and the RPM's drop way down. You basically have to spray your engine between 1-2 to keep it in the power band but the 700R4/4L60 (even the post 1987 cores) don't really like nitrous. With 4:10 gears first gear lasts about 10 feet in a small block. My 1984 Z28 came with 3:73's right from the factory and first gear was always short. I never knew why when I bought it in 1991. That's because of the 3.06 first gear in the 700R4/4L60/4L60E/4L65E. On another note: Has anybody made a better sun shell for these things? I recently read that www.ckperformance makes a 2.66 first gear for the 700R4/4L60 and everyone likes ck's work. But by the time you are done building a 700R4/4L60 trans to death you are looking at $2,500 or more once again. At that point it's 4L80 full manual valve body time.

Gear Vendors is nice but they are $2,395 and that's just for the overdrive unit. Us Gear is also around $1,800 to $2,000 for an overdrive unit with 30% reduction. Remember, this is just for the overdrive unit. That does not include a trans, converter, etc.

As far as the 200 4r some guys like it because you don't have to shorten the driveshaft. The aftermarket has stepped up to make this trans strong because in stock form it's a bigger piece of crap than the 1982-1984 700R4's were. The GN's were lunching these things even in 1987. GM discontinued the 200 4R after they figured out how to make the 700R4 stronger which is when they renamed it the 4L60. This was right around the 1990 model year.

I currently have a manual trans in my car with no overdrive and 4:10 gears so that $*cks!! But I don't know of any company that offers a Reverse pattern Full Manual Valve Body for a 4L80 which is why I haven't decided on what type of trans to put in my car. Who knows? Maybe I'll decide to keep it a manual and go with a TKO 600?

********Question for Jakeshoe or anyone else: Is a FMRPVB available for a 4L80??????? Chuck at Finish Line Trans said he doesn't know of anyone making a RPVB for a 4L80.*******

In conclusion: You want a trans that can handle anything you throw at it. Sure, nothing is invincible either by land or by sea or by air. Stuff can break no matter what it is. But a well built 4L80 full manual valve body is hands down a stronger trans than a well built 200-4R or 700R4/4L60.

Bottom Line: The 4L80 would be my choice. I would spend the extra $500 and build it to death FULL MANUAL VALVE BODY (No Computer) for $3,000; in order to withstand mountain motor Big Block power and Mountain Motor Big Block torque. Good Luck!!

As Paul said, WE4 is another builder of 200-4R's. He used to post here, but hasn't for a few years, you can find him on the Buick site...I think he is the author of the FAQ. CkPerformance is another reputable builder.

I think the 4L80 would be a great transmission, however it's a big transmission. With a BBC and the 1" offset of the engine frame stand/motor mounts, some modifications may have to be made to the tunnel.
I haven't read anything about 4L80 with a BBC, but guys who have 4L80E w/ SBC's have to dent the tunnel to make room for the cooler lines...and that is with a centered engine/tranny. You could put the BBC on SBC frame stands, but then you'll have header problems...

Just more stuff to add to your educated decision...

No reverse pattern VB for the 4L80E.

Not any real reason to do it. There are forward pattern manual VB's available. I can build them with a customer provided core VB.

The TH400 and TH350's use the reverse pattern VBs, not because of any advantage to the shifting pattern, but because of the need to alter the circuits to make a transbrake function using the modulator valve.

You delete the detent, modulator, and governor circuits, and then use the passages as needed to feed line pressure or manual low oil to the direct circuit when you need the brake to function.

The design of the transbrake brought about the FMRPVB. Then the companies sold the VB without the brake function due to popularity with the reverse pattern.

The 4L80 has a much more complex VB. I could probably sit down and design a reverse pattern VB for it but it would take quite a few hours and then I would need to test it on a trans dyno or run in stand and then in car.
I've been studying the 4L80 valve body lately but not for reverse pattern reasons.
If I designed the VB and got it working I would be into it a hundred or more hours, and I don't think you want to pay for that labor time. That would be one expensive VB and there are cheaper options available. Electronic controller or forward pattern manual VB.