This thread will go thru installing a set of gauges to monitor how my engine is running and help to tune it. This setup I think would apply regardless of the induction / fuel delivery system used, and is just as valid with a carb as with EFI.

I'll be using AutoMeter ultra-lite guages (they match the oil pressure, temp, fuel, & volts guages in my console) and installing them in the top center of the dash in a non a/c 68.

Gauges used are:
#4378 wide band O2
#4384 Vacuum
#4360 Fuel pressure 0-30, electric

I'll also be using an angle mount ring kit to get the gauges closer to vertical in the steeply sloped dash.

#2234 3 pack 2 1/6" angle mount rings

The wideband gauge is gawd-awful expensive @ $349, but it can be tied into my (eventual) pcm to provide Wideband O2 correction there as well.

The vacuum gauge may someday be replaced with a vac-boost gauge, hehe.

The 30 lb fuel pressure gauge will be perfect for my planned TBI setup, carb guys would want a 15psi, port inj. guys would want a 100.

These 3 gauges plus my tach will give me the important info just as if I wasd driving with a pc hooked up to the efi all the time.

And the very first thing I learned, found this on Innovate's site:

When installed in the exhaust, the oxygen sensor MUST be
connected and operating with the LC-1 whenever the car is running.
An un-powered oxygen sensor will be quickly damaged when
exposed to hot exhaust gases.

So, while my first inclination with a project like this would be to do the undercar stuff first, I guess not this time.

I'll also be using an angle mount ring kit to get the gauges closer to vertical in the steeply sloped dash.

Good idea.


So, while my first inclination with a project like this would be to do the undercar stuff first, I guess not this time.

Did you get an O2 bung with a plug? If so you can weld in the bung and screw in the plug for now. Since you're not using the gauge to drive an ECU, you can still start with the exhaust worst case you'll just have a hole in your exhaust until you get everything finished.

Did you get an O2 bung with a plug? If so you can weld in the bung and screw in the plug for now. Since you're not using the gauge to drive an ECU, you can still start with the exhaust worst case you'll just have a hole in your exhaust until you get everything finished.
The gauge came with a stainless bung and a plug. I also bought a mild steel bung that I'll be able to weld with my MIG.
Basically I'm just too lazy to jack the car up twice.
I don't have the fuel pressure gauge yet, so I can't finish today regardless.
I'll get the basics done, holes drilled, harness made, today, install the gauges and button up topside Tuesday, and get the O2 in the exhaust Tuesday or Wednesday.

The front center dash trim plate is so thin I'm able to back it with a 2x4 and rough cut the gauge holes with a boxcutter, then sand to size with a lil 1" dremel style drum sander in the die grinder. Need to go to menards for some more of those lil sanding drums.

Yes the wide band sensors need to be heated at all times while the car is running . The NTK sensor that comes with the Holley kit are not cheap but well worth it .
Mark.

Basically I'm just too lazy to jack the car up twice.

You should only have to jack it up once to weld in the bung. I've never had to jack up my car to change the O2 sensor.

Jim - I welded the stainless bung to my exhaust with MIG no problem. Regular wire, too.

It's soo darn hard to get garage time during the week:(

If you use stainless wire it comes out really nice .
Mark.

I'll just use the plain steel bung.
And Mark, it's obvious you haven't seen my welding.
I do need to move this along, and get some pics up, this thread is getting boring.

I do need to move this along, and get some pics up, this thread is getting boring.

:boring: :p

Jody

And Mark, it's obvious you haven't seen my welding.

Ha! If the welds don't turn out nice, just grab the grinder and make them look nice! :D That's what I've heard anway, I wouldn't know as my welds are perfect every time! :o

ok, well managed to re-register my FTP program after the vista upgrade ate the passcode so I'm back in the picture business!

There is just enough room to get the gauges and angle rings in there. I removed a lil material from the top backside of the rings so they fit just over the chrome trim and get up out of the heater control opening.
http://home.comcast.net/~Jimragtop2/gauges/layout.jpg
The metal is so thin I was able to rough cut the holes with a boxcutter, I used a small sanding drum in a die grinder to finish grind the holes.
http://home.comcast.net/~Jimragtop2/gauges/first_hole.jpg
Had to open up the dash metal a lil.
http://home.comcast.net/~Jimragtop2/gauges/dash_hole.jpg
I installed a new connector on my console gauge harness to bring power, ground, and illumination up to the new guages.
http://home.comcast.net/~Jimragtop2/gauges/wires1.jpg
Used a -6 male / female / Tee connector to install the pressure sender between the fuel filter and the carb, also Tee'd off the distributor vac hose for the vac gauge, brought the wires in thru an existing hole in the firewall.
http://home.comcast.net/~Jimragtop2/gauges/sender.jpg
Here's the finished gauge install in the dash. Tonight I'll get the O2 sensor installed and see how they work.
http://home.comcast.net/~Jimragtop2/gauges/installed.jpg
For those looking to put the standard 3 gauges in a 67-68 without a console, this location would work well for temp, oil pressure and volts, too. Right up high and easy to see.

Well.... 2 steps forward one step back. the gauge project is virtually complete, just have to test em with the motor running to make sure they work before putting the last few screws in the console. Had to go to napa, on the initial test, the light in the vac gauge diudn't work!

Engine running test will have to wait. While I was jacking her up to put the O2 bung on, the crossmember spit the jack out :o , radiator came down on jack. Need to order another alluminum rad and put the ole harrison back on.:confused:

Ok, done and all back together. Leaned my idle a bit, got almost 15" vac, 14.3 AFR @ 700 rpm fully warm.

I think I'm gonna apply my belt sander to the spare set of angle rings, see if I can get a better tilt so I can see em better, can't see the LED display.

http://home.comcast.net/~Jimragtop2/gauges/done.jpg

Question: Why does it go rich if I just rev it and hold it in the garage?
750 rpm = 14.3
1000=14
1500=13.3
2000=12.5
3000=12

Question: Why does it go rich if I just rev it and hold it in the garage?
750 rpm = 14.3
1000=14
1500=13.3
2000=12.5
3000=12

What kind of carb?

Carter AFB, 800 cfm. Could be jetted kinda fat, maybe. Been raining all day so I didn't get to drive it.

Sorry Jim, don't know anything about Carters. :(

Looks like the primaries are jetted really rich... but might just be the metering rods adjusted too high. Never worked on a Carter/Edelbrock so don't have a good feel for it. It'll be interesting to see what it does under load. If it leans back up when you get a good load on it, then I'd guess metering rod height. You'll probably be changing out both the jets and rods to get it perfect...then the weather will change and you'll be off again. UEGO is what made me really hate carbs!

I was thinking about this.....

If it was a QJet and you held it at RPM long enough to burn the accelerator pump shot, the high vacuum should have pulled the rods into the jets. Not sure about a carter, but on a QJet it would either be the cruise metering area is too big or the power piston spring tension is too high. That is, assuming that there are no other problems with the carb.

What's bugging me is that since I'm "ASS-U-ME" ing that at a constant say 1500 rpm, the thing should still be drawing off the transfer slots, no where near into the primary mains yet. Even at 3k no load this should be true.

Weather looks good today, will take her out and see some real world readings.

And yes Jon, I agree. Carbs are at best a lousy way to try to mix fuel. Stinky rich under most conditions in an effort to not be "scorched piston lean" in any.

Still, before I do the efi conversion, I'm gonna use these gauges to make this AFB as good as it will get (no drilling on air bleeds tho) then do a dyno run and some strip time.

Then efi and repeat!

And yes Jon, I agree. Carbs are at best a lousy way to try to mix fuel. Stinky rich under most conditions in an effort to not be "scorched piston lean" in any.

Still, before I do the efi conversion, I'm gonna use these gauges to make this AFB as good as it will get (no drilling on air bleeds tho) then do a dyno run and some strip time.

I used an O2 sensor with my QJet, that's what eventually made me switch to EFI. I'd get everything set the way I wanted and then the weather would change or some other factor and I'd be switching rods/jets. He, He, I had the top off that old QJet constantly trying to keep it "just right"!! :clonk:

I daily drove that ragtop, so it seems like every other night after work I'd be tweaking on something to get it ready for the next days commute. :D

Jim, thanks for the link here.
I may end up with my vac and O2 gauges in the same spot as you (but Im not getting a $200 fuel pressure gauge, I will tape my $15 hand held gauge to the windshield)

How good is the viability on those gauges? The angle looks a little steep, and they are pointed down

I read in one of your other threads that you planned on backing the thin sheet metal of the dash cover, did you?

Question: Why does it go rich if I just rev it and hold it in the garage?
750 rpm = 14.3
1000=14
1500=13.3
2000=12.5
3000=12

Just a thought...If you are in the garage, make sure you are getting fresh air, not fumes from the tail pipe to you car's air cleaner...you might be contaminating the intake charge being in a confined space!

It could affect the reading...

Jim, thanks for the link here.
I may end up with my vac and O2 gauges in the same spot as you (but Im not getting a $200 fuel pressure gauge, I will tape my $15 hand held gauge to the windshield)

How good is the viability on those gauges? The angle looks a little steep, and they are pointed down

I read in one of your other threads that you planned on backing the thin sheet metal of the dash cover, did you?

I believe they might also make a 90 degree sweep FP guage that is much less expensive. I got the 270 sweep because it better matched the appearance of the vacuum gauge.

The angle is a bit steep. I have another set of the mounting rings, and sometime this winter I'm gonna do some sanding on the back of those to try to get a better view, less down angle would be nice, but mostly getting them angled toward the driver rather than straight back.

I didn't back up the metal at all. Everything is pretty solid.

I will be reworking the wiring this winter. Right now, there are 2 plugs, one inside the console, and the second the FP sender connection in the engine compartment. It's gonna be a beetch to get the center dash apart.

Jim - do you have any pictures of where you welded the bung. Need todo the same this weekend

It "should" be pointed down into the pipe a l,il, but straight in is the best I could do without pulling the headers.
http://home.comcast.net/~Jimragtop2/gauges/02.jpg

Ok, well I guess I will get those autometer angle rings, and just start sanding them until they look good to me, and if I can't get them right I will find another place to mount them
And Im glad to hear that it doesn't seem flimsy, I am not equipped here to fab a plate to back the gauges.
And I don't think Im going to add a fuel pressure gauge even though that would be nice to have. But most of them are almost $200 or say they must be mounted outside the vehicle and thats just not my style

So, you ended up with your O2 sensor at about 3 or 9 o'clock?

Looks good Jim. I'm looking to add Fuel pressure, AF and Vac/Boost also. I couldn't find a spot I really liked yet. How much cutting did you have to do to the dash? If I ended up trying what you did I'm scared of cutting up the dash too much.

Marc

There is a picture in post 13 of the hole, but it's hard to see. Here's a better pic.

There is a strip of metal running completely across, between the a/c vent hole and the heater control. I cut down on both sides and completely removed this strip. This was done without removing the heater control.

Along the top, i cut out 3 roughly 1/4" tall by 2" wide strips to provide clearance for the top of the guages. This cut did not go up part the lower edge of the plastic retainer strip.

http://home.comcast.net/~Jimragtop2/gauges/hole.jpg

How do you think it would look with the 3 round gauges there and the stock console gauge package? Think it would be out of place?I like the stock gauges, but really want others and nowhere to put them.

I dunno... they are far enough apart that it could be ok. If you don't have the factory console gauges yet you could just go with round ones on the autometer pod. Heck, you could sell a set of nice factory gauges for enough to buy all the autometer's you want and get chenge, it is a 68 after all, the the square factory guages don't really "fit" anyway.

I dunno... they are far enough apart that it could be ok. If you don't have the factory console gauges yet you could just go with round ones on the autometer pod. Heck, you could sell a set of nice factory gauges for enough to buy all the autometer's you want and get chenge, it is a 68 after all, the the square factory guages don't really "fit" anyway.


I have the factory gauges now . What do you mean " it is a 68 after all, the the square factory guages don't really "fit" anyway. They fit perfect in the console. Do you mean for that year?

Is there any difference between free-reving it in the garage at 2500 vs on the road cruising at 2500? Could the no load situation have anything to do with being rich?


I am going to go with a similar setup:
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?p=926079

Fast A/F dual wide band sensors, Stewart Warner A/F, Vacuum and Fuel Pressure gauges under the dash. Really looking forward to be able to have real numbers to help tune the beast.