A while back I had new panels replaced on my '68 camaro, including full length floor plans, inner/outer wheelhoused (both sides)
and new quarter panels (both sides). I did not know a lot about welding or panel replacement but I found a body man who did this kind of work on a regular basis. After getting the car back from him I got the car home and found out that every panel had been lap-welded and very poorly at that and that some of the panels did not line up exactly.
My question is: is there any way to repair this short of cutting of the panels and having them re-welded and can I use the same panels once they are cut off?

Thanks for any help,
Grady Wooten

Some people don't take much pride in what they do,and it sounds like you found one.The
problem can be corrected, but it's going to very,very diffcult.You can re-use the panels,but you will have to grind or drill the weld out,it depends on how it was secured and you must be careful not to damage the panels any more than necessary. I don't envy you. Good Luck.

From the perspective of a body and paint man that takes pride in his work, your body man is a hack and should be flipping burgers somewhere, but you knew that.
Stated simply, you have a problem. As the earlier post stated, you must determine how the panels were installed. If I had to guess, I would say they were welded in with a wire feed mig welder, which will make it very difficult to remove the panels without destroying them. Since the welds will bubble eventually anyway, you could strip the attaching areas down to see exactly what this mongrel did and how he did it. Until you get to that point, Making any recomendations is purely guesswork, but you do have one approach that might prove to be successful.
After exposing the areas where the panels are attached, determine to overlap of the two panels. If you have room, say 1/2", you could elect to use a GOOD cut off wheel and split the area between the overlap and give yourself a butt welding option. It will take 2 or 3 people and many clamps to hold the new panels in place after you have cut them off and are about to reweld, but it can be done.
I would suspect the 1/4's are welded to the upper deck panel and the tail panel in the trough and possibly on the interior of the trunk. You will have to form your own opinion as to the quality of the work there and repair accordingly.
If you decide to undertake this repair, I will be happy to try to walk you through this, but I must forewarn you, it's not easy and probably should be left to and experienced body man. Then again, you've already been down that road.

Grady, I can't offer any advice, just compassion. I've had my '68 butchered as well. The previous owners had 80% style patch quarters brazed on. The seams were slathered in bondo up to 1/4" thick in spots. I also had floor pans and rockers replaced about 10 yrs ago and they need replacedd again. When the guy replaced the floors, he put the seat braces back in at such an angle that I had to stack washers in different heights at each corner of the seat to level it out (I wasn't going to take it back to him to fix it and I can't weld). While I've got it apart again, all of this is going to be fixed. As said many times before, some people just shouldn't breed!!

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Bret Copsey
'68 Camaro base coupe
'92 Caprice wagon
'98 Malibu

[This message has been edited by bretcopsey (edited 12-29-2000).]

I'm about to replace the 1/4s on my car with the help of a friend who's done it a few times before. He's suggested I get a "flanging tool" that will make a shallow depression around the perimeter of the panel my new 1/4s will be welded to. Sounded good because the two pieces will be at the same level on either side of the weld (less body filler) but...
I get the impression from this topic that this is a BAD IDEA and that BUTT WELDING is the best way to go. Is this correct?

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'69 Garnet Red Convertible, Ivory over black, 350 w/turbo 400

No. There is nothing wrong with overlapping panels to be welded. The main problem guys have when they overlap is they do it with to much metal. 1/4 to 3/8 total overlap is ideal. For the most part, when a butt weld is done on lets say a 1/4 panel in the sail panel area, a sleeve is put in it so to increase the strength of the area, and even at that, there is still a gap between the 2 pieces of metal that is filled in when you weld the 2 pieces of metal to the splice.

If you go into any production body shop, I personally guarantee you that you will see guys overlapping sheet metal and makeing sleeves to install sheet metal.

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67 Camaro SS Conv.
70 Challenger R/T Conv.

[This message has been edited by ragtopman (edited 12-31-2000).]

Ragtopman, I've always heard that the dumbest question is the one not asked so here goes. What are sleeves that are put on when overlapping metal? Thanks Wes

Originally posted by MY396:
[B]Ragtopman, I've always heard that the dumbest question is the one not asked so here goes. What are sleeves that are put on when overlapping metal? Thanks Wes

Wes, No such thing as a dumb question, just a dumb answer http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif, so here goes.

A sleeve is a piece of metal usually cut off the new panel and welded to the back side of the old panel 1st, and when you put the new panel in place, it allows you to butt weld it at that area, but at the same time, you have strengthened that area with the sleeve. Also,a sleeve is used mainly in sail panels and door jambs when sectioning in a 1/4 panel. Ive tried to keep a long story short, so if your still confused, just ask.

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67 Camaro SS Conv.
70 Challenger R/T Conv.

Ragtopman is right. Most production type shops (shops that repair collision damage on a day in, day out basis) will overlap 1/4 panel almost always. It's faster, plain and simple. These guys are making a living doing it and can't afford to spend 2 days on a job that they are getting $200.00 to do.
99% of these repairs are perectly good and will remain that way for years to come.
Restoration of a First Generation Camaro may or may not fall into that catagory. If the owner of one of these car plans to repair it to the very best standards, and don't mind paying the associated costs, butt welding is the method chosen by those that do that for a living. It takes MUCH longer and the work is more intricate.

Are patch panels usually butted?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gldn slmbr:
Are patch panels usually butted?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm no professional body man, but a good freind of mine, who has been doing body work for 25+ years gave me this advice. He said to lap weld the panels because butt welding is much more difficult to control stress as the metals expand toward one another. A lap weld, will slip until it's been thouroughly tacked in place.

Spray the lap joint with Weld-through primer. Tack weld at about 1" intervals (where and how to tack depends on the panel). Use a damp rag to remove heat from the weld after each tack or bead. Once tacked, weld 1/2" beads in a back stepping fasion using the rag to cool after each weld. If you hear popping and cracking during the process your getting it too hot. Once the weld is complete, grind it down, glaze / bondo the area and prime. After the back side primer has dried, smear seam sealer over the back of the lap.

Sounds like good advice to me.

-dnult

I have to put my two cents in here. First of all, in my opinion lap welding the floor panels in is the CORRECT way to REPAIR a floor. It is much stronger, and faster to boot. Now, you noticed I said "REPAIR" not "restore," that is a whole different issue. You may have chosen a guy who isn't much of a restorer, but does collision work. In this case, you may have a good job, just not "correct." In restoring, you put them so the appear as they did from the factory, that would still be lapping, but you would lap weld them WHERE the factory lap welded them. THERE WERE NO BUTT WELDS IN THE ENTIRE CAR! If the repro panel is not long enough to replace the WHOLE thing as the factory did, then you would need to butt weld them to reproduce the look the factory did. If you lap weld properly, you could finish both sides off so they would be beautiful top and bottom and no one would be the wiser. I would think this is where Grady should go. Grady, if you didn't have the know how to do it the first time, things have not changed and you still don't right? If you pay someone to "fix" this (I am still not convinced it needs "fixing") than you will pay BIG TIME. It would be much cheaper to replace the whole panels again. These lap welded panels, are any of the laps seen from the rear AFTER the car is assembled? These, you can worry about more.
I know I will get a bunch of flack for this (I have in the past) but not EVERY car "deserves" the flawless treatment. I am not saying yours does or doesn't, PLEASE don't put words in my mouth. Only you can make that decision. But if you are building a "driver" and not some frame off Yenco or something, "some" imperfect lapped welds may be plenty "good enough."

If you have read my posts before you know that I am a HUGE proponent of the home hobbyist and the first timer. If you have some basic skills and tools you CAN repair this car back to a flawless factory look. If you choose to do this, there are plenty of guys here who will walk you though it, one step at a time (this is an overview that we are discussing now).

If you don't have the time, skills or tools to do it, you will have to decide how you will get it done. You may choose to leave the floor pans as they are because they will be unseen. Then have the parts of the quarters that will be seen repaired.

You need to post photos of your concerns so everyone can see just what you are up against.

Ragtopman, 396SS, I have never heard of the term "sleeve" describing that. It may be a regional thing. I have always know it as a "backing." The weld is called a "butt with backing." The ICAR recommended way to use it is the seam between the panels has a gap that is twice the thickness of the metal being welded. The weld has to penetrate through into the backing when welding the two panels together. It provides a very strong weld. The Butt weld is great when you can get behind it to massage the metal back into shape, but when you are welding a sail panel splice and can't get up in there to back the weld with a dolly, you need to lap or butt with a backing to weld it properly.
That leads me to the point that if you can't get behind it, you really should lap or butt with a backing.

dnult, in my opinion that is a poor way to control heat. What he is doing is shrinking the metal FURTHER than it was after every weld. A better way is to let it cool slowly or at the very least "help" it cool slowly with the wet rag, DO NOT apply the rag close enough to "hear" the weld sizzle or cool.

If the butt weld has NO gap, there is much less shrinkage than any other method of welding it. When there IS a gap, that is where you have the panels "moving in" towards one an other.

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Fan of anything that is interesting and moves human beings.
1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
1948 Chevy PU with 401 Buick

MARTINSR, thanks for having the guts to say it. I did not.

I did my whole car myself and I am a first timer. The only seam that will show is the quarter/sail and the trunk opening (with the lid open). My car is going to be a driver and not a museum piece. Go ahead and say what you want.

3/4 of the floor pan welding does not show even up on a lift. The only place it does show is up inside the trasmission tunnel. It overlaps the rest of the way. Heck the factory lapped the joints. If you need to look that hard to find the seam it ain't that important to me. Greasy side down, shiny side up. The carpet covers the rest.

Now that the car is together, I like the idea of using a cutoff wheel to re-do the weld from a lapp to a butt. Who knows, I might even try that myself now that I have enough experience. I will consult with my paint guy and see what he recomends.

Get the car out of the garage and out on the road! If you like to do things better than the other guy, feel free to do so. Just another choice.

-Mark.

Let me add my two cents !! Lap welds are much faster, there is no denying that. But better absolutely not!! When your in the biz to make money and we all know you make money by rolling em in and out of the door as fast as possible. The old days of metal masters is becoming a dying art.I've seen guys take a crushed fender and bring it back to its original shape without FILLER. If you have to replace a quarter panel (when possible)
do the whole quarter as per factory !! If your doing a patch and you want longevity and work you'll be proud of but weld and hammer weld the metal out!! Have you ever tried to take to fenders and splice em. Then finish em out with no FILLER. Yes filler is much quicker, but better ??? I don't think so. I'm restoring a 69 RS and I was going to farm out the bodywork, so I went to a ton of different shops and there is no way I would let any of these people hack up my car. Instead it is going to take me 3-4 times as long, but when I'm done you can be rest assured my car will be the envy of the car shows!!!!!!! I did the upperdash all ready it took a while but it is butted in and looks like the original metal. I'm working on the trunk right now. It takes a long time:
fit, clamp, mark, cut, repeat, repeat, repeat. when the trunk and a portion of the floor is done I'm going to tackle the d-side qtr. Iwent to a Camaro restoration shop here in town and you could see all the overlaps.
Man I would be livid. Sorry about you guys who have had less than sub par work and any of you guys who do body work I'm not trying to step on your toes. But as the old saying goes: IF YOU WANT IT DONE RIGHT DO IT YOURSELF !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CHRIS

[This message has been edited by cbrooks (edited 06-10-2002).]

cbrooks, my floor pans where lap welded and sealed and look great, don't feel sorry for me. Subpar? be for real! Wes

[This message has been edited by MY396 (edited 06-10-2002).]

Chris, I think you missed the intent of my post. I agree, on a 1968 Camaro with the mild steel it was made out of a butt weld is not superior in strength, but it is at the very least equal. I work now a days on late model HS Steel and it is a whole different ball game. You DO NOT want to apply as much heat as you do when hammer welding. It is in fact, not recommended to even come close to the amount of heat you would have with hammer welding. Because of this in today's world of auto body repair a lap or butt with backing IS better. That is the point of view I was talking from, so I am a little off track.
On "metal finishing," yes Chris I DO know about it, and I DO it. I cannot only repair a fender without a filler, I can do it without any primer! I repair smashed metal and stainless steel moldings for chrome plating. I also make panels from scratch and have pneumatic Planishing hammers, and english wheel, shrinkers and stretchers, shot bag with mallets, the whole "metal masters" work shop. I don't put myself in the category with John Glover or Ron Fourner, but I can hold my own.

Now, is metal finishing "better," yes and a BIG no. If you repair a damaged panel PROPERLY with a minimum of filler, it is MUCH better than an over worked metal finished panel. I'll go one further, MOST metal finishing results in over working the metal. I have seen guys do some amazing stuff with metal finishing, it is true. But MOST guys out there "metal finishing" don't have a clue and apply more primer than if they just would have put a skim coat of filler!

Now, if you want to metal finish your car, that is great. But NO ONE will know but you. It will not be straighter, It will not be any more of a "envy" at the shows than a car that is covered with filler done nice.

Have you heard of "Boyd Codington? He has had a number of TOP show cars come out of his shop. I have never seen them before paint, but I am told they have a skim coat of filler over every square inch. This makes me feel good, because many of my "show cars" have been the same. There is NOTHING wrong with properly applied filler. It is MUCH better than a ton of primer.

Now, with the passion you express in your post you must feel like I was speaking to you personally. Let's talk about this whole idea of mine and the difference between doing the ultimate job and one that "fits" the car.

If you were doing a paint job and body work on a 1980 Chevy Citation that you needed to get back and forth to work in, would you metal finish and hammer weld every patch panel? I sure hope you wouldn't because you would be one sick puppy. Now, it you were doing a '67 427 AC Cobra (if you don't know, its worth about $650,000.00 to $1,000,000.00) would you do that metal finishing flawless work? I sure hope you would. So now lets get back to reality. Your Camaro is somewhere in the middle between that Citation and the Cobra, would you agree? The thing that has to be decided with every car we do is "WHERE" is it between that Citation and the Cobra. If you have a nice driver like my '65 Gran Sport you are going to do work that is in the middle between metal finishing and the quickie scuff and shoot job you would on the Citation. I have hammer welded the seam on a patch panel on the quarter, and replaced the rear panel just as the factory installed it. The rest of the car needed filler work over 90% of it. It is now in etch primer and urethane primer, blocked and reprimed and looking VERY good. I am perfectly capable of doing a FLAWLESS restoration, but I see no reason to spend that kind of time on the car. When it is done, I will have a ball with it and even go to some "shows." I certainly wouldn't enter it in a show to compete against you car, it just won't be that kind of car. I have done that, and won some awards with other cars. One competed for "Americas Most Beautiful Roadster" coming in a very respectable 6th place among a field of 14 with the first place car costing a reported $250,000.00! He had more in his display than our car. Our car Chris was PERFECT as you can get. I am talking waxed under floors perfect! We could take the door panels and carpet out of the car and show it with pride! There is not a speck of orange peel on the car, door jambs, frame, ANYWHERE, it was color sanded and buffed EVERYWHERE. The wireing looked better than most cars paint work.
It would be insane to do such work on my Gran Sport. Not to say that it isn't worth the time, just not MY time at this point in my life. My brother and I did do that to his '65 Gran Sport conv (four speed, power windows, A/C , etc.) and it is now owned by a guy who shows it regularly and does very well with it I am told.

But, I am sorry, not EVERY car "deserves" that kind of work. There is nothing wrong with doing a nice job with lap welded panels, and a coat of filler on it. If you can do the job in a proper fashion and DETAIL it properly you can have a stand out car that is the "envy" of the YOU. I can tell you this, DETAIL sells the car much more than replacing every single piece a the factory did and using lead on the factory seams and all that other stuff. A guy can get a warm gooey feeling doing all those things but after I spray my "magic primer" over my plastic filler and turn it into metal (tongue firmly in cheek) my WELL DETAILED car will look better.

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Fan of anything that is interesting and moves human beings.
1965 Buick Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
1948 Chevy PU with 401 Buick

Didn't mean to offend anyone. I guess I'm a little overzealous. We have had in our family a 1970 Chevelle LS6 w/ M22 and posi 4.10(It was GORGEOUS, cranberry red, black stripes, cowl induction). This was a factory original car bought brand new by my father 8 months before I was born. Everyone should build their cars the way that is acceptable and affordable to them, but I have learned alot from my father and one thing I'll never forget is attention to detail. In my studies of welding and body work alot of different techniques are acceptable, and you are right most people won't know the EXTREME amount of work that goes into what I'm willing to do, and 90 % of the people won't see all the blood sweat and tears that go into it. But I intend to keep my Camaro till the grave and God willing that's going to be a long time. I certainly don't want have to cut out metal again. Maybe a fresh coat of paint a time or three, but not a new trunk again or a dash or a peice of floor. Once again I'll state IMHO that a but weld WILL last longer than a lap weld and if none else ever knows how much work I put into it I ALWAYS WILL. My car isnt even going to be original. HE, HE, HE, HE

RESPECTFULLY,
Chris

Didn't mean to offend anyone. I guess I'm a little overzealous. We have had in our family a 1970 Chevelle LS6 w/ M22 and posi 4.10(It was GORGEOUS, cranberry red, black stripes, cowl induction). This was a factory original car bought brand new by my father 8 months before I was born. Everyone should build their cars the way that is acceptable and affordable to them, but I have learned alot from my father and one thing I'll never forget is attention to detail. In my studies of welding and body work alot of different techniques are acceptable, and you are right most people won't know the EXTREME amount of work that goes into what I'm willing to do, and 90 % of the people won't see all the blood sweat and tears that go into it. But I intend to keep my Camaro till the grave and God willing that's going to be a long time. I certainly don't want have to cut out metal again. Maybe a fresh coat of paint a time or three, but not a new trunk again or a dash or a peice of floor. Once again I'll state IMHO that a but weld WILL last longer than a lap weld and if none else ever knows how much work I put into it I ALWAYS WILL. My car isnt even going to be original. HE, HE, HE, HE

RESPECTFULLY,
Chris

thank you, thank you, thank you, martinsr, couldnt said it better! we as camaro owners have to watch our level of insanity, and keep it all in perspective, or we will be as kooky as those corvette guys

WOW! Gldn Slmbr waited a year and 5 months to get his question "Are panels butt welded?" answered!!

Is that a record? I think so!

Maybe thats the problem I Own a Corvette too.
Is a Camaro not as cool as a Corvette. Well I happen to like em both and strive for the same amount of perfection on both !!!!!

To each his own !!

Good Day,
Chris