I am currently buildin a 69 Camaro with a LS1/700R4 swap. I had a Fab 9 rear-end built and now need to look at the front of the car. It is a factory disc brake car. My question is, do I buy a complete front clip with rack and pinion and brakes for around $4000 (TCI) or install a set of Speedtech or Globalwest tubular a-arms and a decent set of coil over shocks and notch the pan for the crossmember for around $2000? The car will be a driver and likely on 100+ mile trips. Thanks!

Take a look at the front clip from Art Morrison. It costs more but you can use the stock F body oil pan and accessory drives. You also don't need to beat on your headers with a hammer to make them fit. It's a well thought out and designed front clip. I studied them all for months before I went with the Art Morrison clip.

Don

Chris Alston subframes seem to be very popular also.

If you choose to go with the stock sub frame (like I did) plan on spending $6k for "everything".

U&L Control Arms (DSE)
Tie rod, pitman arm, end link ect.
QA1 aluminum coil over shocks
Hotchkis Springs & sway bay
Baer 13" disc front and 11" rear
New brake lines
Quick ratio steering box.
Baer Master Cyl. and booster

Good luck with your project.

Rich

I`ll throw another combo into the mix. Use an ATS oil pan and motor mounts,then you don`t have to notch the crossmember and you`ll have a good baffled pan. Install a StreetComp AFX with tall forged aluminum spindles and 13" Baer GT brakes for less than $2,000 and have much better geometry/performance than the TCI Mustang 2/Pinto street rod front end. Round it out with one of Lee`s beautifully valved fast ratio steering boxes. There`s a LOT of options out there right now,take your time and check them out before you buy. Be particularly careful with companies that cater to street rods. The prevailing attitude in that market is that parts just have to look good and don`t have to work because their customers "are just cruisin". :thumbsup: Mark SC&C

I'm going to post a cheaper alternative to each of Rich's ideas.


U&L Control Arms (DSE) - Speed Tech is cheaper, or get Global West arms bare and transfer your balljoints but don't re-use your old shaft, it won't work if it has bolts on the ends.

Tie rod, pitman arm, end link ect. - Shop around for deals
QA1 aluminum coil over shocks - Nice but coil overs don't help handling, just make adjusting easier. any shock will work, for cheaper Moog springs I have some listed on my web page, or get circle track "hidden" type and use a threaded adjuster on top. the adjuster is difficult to get at to adjust though.

Hotchkis Springs & sway bay - See above cheaper springs, tuners use 600 lb rate coils Adco bars from summit will work.
Baer 13" disc front and 11" rear - lots of deals on the net or find a junk yard. You can also order rebuilt calipers and pay the core charge. get new rotors at auto parts store.

New brake lines - Make your own
Quick ratio steering box. - You can get a "Cardone" rebuilt box for a third gen IROC or Trans Am, get adapters for the hoses from Lee, also a new rag joint.

Baer Master Cyl. and booster - Re use your booster and get an early 70's Ford master cyl with 15/16" bore.

Rear springs were not mentioned specifically, - I feel they are very important to getting a good handling setup. I have experience with the Hotchkis and GW cat5 leafs, I like the Hotchkiis, and the CAT5 are great but very stiff and the ride is more harsh. I think the CAT5's are more for very hiigh horsepower cars, or for people that are VERY serious about competition events like autocross and open track. If I had 450 engine hp and drove on the street, I'd go with the Hotchkis leafs.

When you are doing the comparisons don't forget to include the cost of your LSx conversion. There are hidden costs here:

oilpan - $450 to $850 or more if you choose one requiring a remote filter. Most stock clip conversions and aftermarket clips require a new oil pan. A couple of the aftermarket clips can use the stock oil pan. Do some research before notching the factory pan - there's a few guys out there who have fried their motors.

accessory drives - this can add up quickly if you are going to have air conditioning. It can be anywhere from $700 to $3000+ if you cannot reuse the factory accessory drive. Not all aftermarket clips can resuse the stock AC drive. Most solutions with a stock clip cannot use the factory AC drive.

headers - the headers for some of the solutions can cost $2000. There are lower cost options but some need multiple beatings with a hammer to clear the steering. Check out the ls1tech.com conversions section.

If you are not doing an LSx conversion I think modifying the stock subframe would come out ahead hands down. Add in an LSx conversion and the decision is not so clear cut.

Don

we installed a new, entirely bolt on subframe from ccm custom rods. it's lightweight, utilizes re-engineered MII tubular arms, spindles, screwin ball joints, Rack and pinion steering, GM rotors with GM calipers and pads, Coilovers, and adjustable motor mounts.

Bolts directly to the four body mounts, using the original bushings, core support bolts up with NO modification.

Install big or small block, lsx, and no need for any Modifications. Headers fit even Summit, and flowtech, full length. all brake line brackets are there. Trans Crossmember supports any trans and is fully adjustable. It's looks awesome.

Here's the best part it's only $2100.00

we installed a new, entirely bolt on subframe from ccm custom rods. it's lightweight, utilizes re-engineered MII tubular arms, spindles, screwin ball joints, Rack and pinion steering, GM rotors with GM calipers and pads, Coilovers, and adjustable motor mounts.

Bolts directly to the four body mounts, using the original bushings, core support bolts up with NO modification.

Install big or small block, lsx, and no need for any Modifications. Headers fit even Summit, and flowtech, full length. all brake line brackets are there. Trans Crossmember supports any trans and is fully adjustable. It's looks awesome.

Here's the best part it's only $2100.00


sounds like you work there. ;) I would not use any Mustang II based suspension if I was looking for a handling upgrade. Street rod, maybe, but not a pro-touring type build.

Jody

David, I agree with your post 100%. I just figured since he spent the cash to setup the back with a Fab 9 rear, he was looking for a little show to go with the performance.


Rich

i understand about the mm II, but the only parts used based on the mm II are the arms and they are re-engineered. the spindles and steering arms are STOCK camaro.

I'm building much the same type of car. Chris Alston's Fab 9 with his 4-link. The car has been back halfed with a 12 point roll cage. Just today I received my front frame and suspension from Detroit speed. The total cost is about the same. So far all the pieces seem to be very high quality. The only real problem with Detroit Speed is that they wildly underestimate the time it takes them to deliver their product. My frame was promised 4/1/2007! It did not arrive until 6/27/07. They do simplify the LSX bolt in. I'm using a Dart Big M block but an LSX will bolt right in with their mounts. Rob.

I totally agree with Mark SC&C and David Pozzi. I have done alot of research on this before turning my frame off resto 68 SS into more a Pro Touring car. Give Tyler @ ATS (American Touring Specialties) a call and they can help you get almost all that you want for your 69. Go by Tyler's, David's, Mark's and many other knowledgable people on other forums, I built a excellent handling Camaro, that has given a few newer C5's a run for their money. I have a total Hotckis TVS suspension system (lowers front 2" & rear 1 1/2", matched valved (Hotchkis)Bilstein shocks, (no rear sway bar, not needed) Global West tubular UCA's, factory LCA's w/ Del-a-lum bushings (no benifit to tubular lowers, unless running coil overs), Global West solid body bushings, Global West subframe connectors, ATS "AFX Tall" aluminum spindles/hub assy. w/ C6 brakes ( FYI Z06 6 piston brakes bolt directly to the AFX spindle, along with many others, just watch your wheel size and choices), New Delphi 600 12.7:1 ratio Lee Manuf. steering box,Short steering arms, Hydro tech hydro boost, Hotchkis 1 1/8 hollow front sway bar, ATS aligned the car. Tyler @ATS had said that the car handles exceptional. Please stay away from any of the "Hot Rod" shops frames if handling is your goal. Not to knock their product, but a properly prepped stock frame, will out perform most aftermarket ones. ATS offers a prepped stock frame with a wide range of options to suit your needs. All this in a 68 with a approx. 500hp iron headed 427 w/ 700R4 12bolt w/ 3.31. This car loves it at over 130mph!! Please take advantage of guys like David, Mark and Tyler. David's website is awesome. Mark w SC&C can get you hooked up also. Tyler @ ATS can fix up up with everthing for your LS swap (mounts, steering, headers, serpintine front system oil pan, crossmember, spindles, etc.) Hope this long winded post helps. I've been there before for days, weeks, months, researching and asking people in the know, before I made a move. Next I'll go into the LS/ T56 to really be more Pro Touring. Good Luck, Jeff

Don't forget to consider an Air Ride setup with ATS spindles...

I am a really big fan of the American Touring Specialties Chicane-LM front suspension. We are using it on our OneLapCamaro build and I am also going to use it on my wife's "pro-touring lite" '67. As many have said before me, it is surprising what a modified original sub is capable of.

Upper coil over mount coversion:
http://www.onelapcamaro.com/build/frontsuspension/frontsuspension%20(14).jpg

GW upper and lower CA's, Penske dual adjustable shocks, AFX tall spindles with short steering arms, Baer tracker rod ends and a 670 series power steering box.
http://www.onelapcamaro.com/OLC_pics/j29%20susp%201.jpg


http://www.onelapcamaro.com/OLC_pics/j29%20susp%203a.jpg

Its definately worth giving Tyler a call.

James
www.OneLapCamaro.com

Please stay away from any of the "Hot Rod" shops frames if handling is your goal. Not to knock their product, but a properly prepped stock frame, will out perform most aftermarket ones.

You bring up a good point, I understand what you're talking about. But, you may want to elaborate on the term "hot rod shops" to give everybody else an idea of your point who may not be familiar with the aftermarket subframe market.

Matt, You're correct, but I'd rather not mention actual names, but mainly the companies that base their front subframes on Mustang II platforms or similar designs found in "street rods". Those cars are a totally different application compared to what we are trying to achieve. Plus alot of the "drop spindles" offered by these shops have issues in tie rod clearances to rims (reduces your wheel selections, they usually only use factory gm single piston brake calipers (few brake choices). David Pozzi's site has alot of factual info on this subject as do numerous other pro-touring sites (ie. Pro-Touring.com and Lateral-g.net) Point is, when was the last time you heard of a pro-touring 34' coupe or a corner carving 40' Ford going close to 100 mph to the freeway, then hitting the tight turning off ramp without touching the brakes, and it just "sticks" to the road like a slot car!!?? I've never heard of one! We all build our cars to suite our own needs, but you have to weed out all the opinins that you'll hear and follow the facts. Then you can decide the best setup to fit your needs and budget. You'll find alot of people telling you to buy the latest and greatest (aka most expensive), but it's easy to say when it isn't your money. Luckly for me, Tyler @ ATS is about 10 miles away from me. Those guys, were instrumental in my "rebuild " of my restored car! He told what would be a waste of money for a street car verses a track car and turned me on to numerous other resources/ vendors, even when he had nothing to gain from it. We have become real good friends since then and I would highly recomened Tyler, along with most of all the sponsers on these sites. You know that we are a "tight" community, and if you cheat one of us, you cheat us all and word gets around fast!! Hope that this helps. Feel free to call if I can share anything (702)677-4085 Jeff

Not a hint of Mustang 2 in this Art Morrison subframe. I agree, don't listen to others, do your own research and calculate the TOTAL cost of your LSx conversion. Include the oilpan and remote filter if needed, accessory drive, headers, mounts, suspension, brakes, steering, trans crossmember and labor to do any required welding and fab.

http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=15595&d=1171124910

I think if you really do your homework or research, I think you'll find almost ALL new subframe builds are based off of MUSTANG suspension geometry. Fords early designs were revolutionary in corner handling, and racing. They copied there design from european road racers.

Take porsche, jags, vettes, whatever, they all have the basic ifs geometry. So when you THINK a 32 ford can't handle a turn, you had better look underneath it before you lay your money down.

All I am saying is don't re-invent the wheel, with a little research it does not cost a ton of money to achieve the handling and looks you are after.

I drove myself nuts with your same question..... I went and left the stock subframe...In my opinion it is still a great design...the steering is the problem.... I went with global west upper and lowers and a 2'' drop ,qa1's on all 4 corners and Hotchkis rear leafs I retained my stock style box with a quick ratio... I'll be running about 550 hp on a 496 fuel injected 5spd combo... I have searched and searched and see this same combo on many higher hp cars and full protouring rides Hope this helps you some good luck with your ride....Tom

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/toyboy/67rs005.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/toyboy/67rs002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/toyboy/cam2-28008.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/toyboy/cam2-28007.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/toyboy/cam2-28006.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v602/toyboy/cam2-28003.jpg

I think if you really do your homework or research, I think you'll find almost ALL new subframe builds are based off of MUSTANG suspension geometry. Fords early designs were revolutionary in corner handling, and racing. They copied there design from european road racers.

Take porsche, jags, vettes, whatever, they all have the basic ifs geometry. So when you THINK a 32 ford can't handle a turn, you had better look underneath it before you lay your money down.

All I am saying is don't re-invent the wheel, with a little research it does not cost a ton of money to achieve the handling and looks you are after.

I'm having difficulty understanding your post. Mustangs have a strut type suspension, so I assume you mean MII.

First, AME, DSE, and 21st Century are just three off the top of my head that do not use Mustang or Mustang II geometry.

Heck, AME and DSE subframes, even though they use Vette parts, don't even use that geometry. I can only speak for AME in this area, but I spent many, many hours redesigning the geometry to work better for our cars. Not even close to Mustang II geoemtry.

But I want to take this a step further. Take our GT55 chassis, the same used in Art Morrison's '55. 0.94g average on the skidpad, and set records for the slalom. Yes, it used (at the time) Mustang II drop spindles. Did it retain the stock geometry? Heck no, that was modified to the gills! The camber curve and SVSA is superb. So Mustang II isn't bad at all, just as long as the geometry has been modified for better performance.

So are you saying that all IFS systems have "basically" the same performance capabilites? Or Mustang/Mustang II was the invetor of the IFS design?

Where do I find info or a number for these guys?

http://www.artmorrison.com/contact/index.cfm

http://www.detroitspeed.com/contactus/contact_us.htm

http://www.t56kit.com/contact/

http://www.globalwest.net/

http://www.scandc.com/contact.htm

Does that help you any?

Tyler

check my link out. I got mine from checkeredracing.com

2k

In Jeff's defense, here is a summary of the new front clip from Chris Alston's web site:

Direct bolt-on-clip for '67-69 Camaro, The frame is factory welded in our special fixture. It is laser cut, formed and welded out of 7 gauge steel. Front clip keeps the tire in the stock location, there is ample room for up to a 17"x8" front wheel with 4-3/4" back space and P225/45-17" tires. You will reuse the factory radiator core support and bolt it into the front clip. Your front bumper, radiator, and grille will bolt back in the original location with the weld-nuts fabricated into the frame. We manufacture the billet rack-&-pinion to match the suspension crossmember width. When you add the Street Machine front suspension package to the clip, this assures you will have perfect suspension geometry (unlike our competitors who only have "Mustang II" suspension crossmembers and tell you they will fit the Camaro, Firebird, and Nova).


I don't know who uses mustang suspension but I can assure you I didn't buy it :D

Thanks, Rich. My point was that there are a variety of subframe choices out here. Some are geared towards looks, weight savings and added room/ clearence. Some are geared for a serious handling upgrades and added functionality. Just like almost any aftermarket parts, it is all marketed to "target" groups. You just want to make sure that you know what are getting and what you want , before laying down you're hard earned cash.

I think if you really do your homework or research, I think you'll find almost ALL new subframe builds are based off of MUSTANG suspension geometry.

Wow, not even close! :sad:

Kudos to Matt (Silver69Camaro) for being diplomatic in his response and trying to educate those that don't understand.

I think that the major reason for going with an aftermarket subframe is front tire clearance. The stock subframe and geometry in the arms will only allow 245 wide tires on a eight inch rim. If you go with DSE or the Morrison one you could fit 10 inch rims and 315 tires up front.

Jan

The mention of the mustang geometry is the first I heard. I did a lot of probing and question asking prior to deciding my setup and nobody mentioned the mustang thing.
Anyway, I decided to modify my stock front and replace the rear.


Rich

Does anybody have any experience with Heidt's subframe?