Pilot Bushing Stuck...and.... [Archive] - Team Camaro Tech

: Pilot Bushing Stuck...and....


dbx1969
Jun 27th, 07, 03:02 PM
I'm drained:(. I'm trying to remove the brass bearing/bushing where the trans. goes into the flywheel. I read about different methods, and since I wasn't able to get my hands on a pilot bearing puller, I tried the "packing" method using grease and pounding an 11mm socket (fit the hole the best). Well, as I feared...not only did the bearing not move (as far as I could tell), but the socket is now jammed in there nice and tight:mad:. I had been pounding, packing grease, pounding, packing etc... and was able to get the socket out each time (had it attached to a 1/4" hand nut driver) ......until the it finally got stuck. Of course, the driver handle pulls right out, so I tried using a bolt, using the threads as a way to grab/pull the socket, but to no avail. I even tried packing more grease into it and using a wood dowel....but nothing.....

I'm pretty much a novice when it comes to something like this. I'm hoping you guys will laugh and tell me I'm not screwed :)........and then tell me how I can get not only the socket, but the bushing out, as well. And now I'm guessing I couldn't use a bearing puller until I get the socket out?

go2fast
Jun 27th, 07, 03:22 PM
Those bushings are fairly brittle. Drill some holes in it and take a hammer and chisel to it. It will break-up pretty easy.

400bird
Jun 27th, 07, 03:28 PM
well, that sucks

I guess I would try to grab the socket with a pair of vice grips and wiggle it loose so you can pull it out

and I am no good at getting pilot bushings out I wish you the best of luck

Mkelcy
Jun 27th, 07, 03:38 PM
If you can get the socket out, and you don't mind spending a little money, a tap that's slightly larger than the ID of the pilot bearing (IIRC a 5/8" tap) does a great job as a puller. Check the OD of the very end of the transmission input shaft to confrim the size of the tap.

zdld17
Jun 27th, 07, 03:49 PM
Also, if you can find a pipe easy out and bite it from the inside , it should bust or come out. Use a pipe wrench if you have to.

dbx1969
Jun 27th, 07, 03:56 PM
Those bushings are fairly brittle. Drill some holes in it and take a hammer and chisel to it. It will break-up pretty easy.

I'm thinking that with the socket in the way (good 1/4" down past the end of the bearing) that your idea may not work, as the jammed socket would help keep the integrity of the bushing together.

well, that sucks

I guess I would try to grab the socket with a pair of vice grips and wiggle it loose so you can pull it out

See above ^ :(

If you can get the socket out, and you don't mind spending a little money, a tap that's slightly larger than the ID of the pilot bearing (IIRC a 5/8" tap) does a great job as a puller. Check the OD of the very end of the transmission input shaft to confrim the size of the tap.

Hmmm...this might be a good way to get both out. First the socket, and then try your idea with the bushing. I actually have a tap set (never really used, lol) and might have a tap big enough. Will have to go see.

Before I even attempted this I called "GM Jim" (since I'll be installing a TKO-600) and he suggested a $20 (S&H inc.) bearing puller from a company called Springer Tool, but I wasn't able to locate them via Google. Believe me, I would gladly have paid $20 in advance than trying a method I knew would be messy and a PIA. But I didn't want to pay the $$$ at a local parts store for a 1 time use tool, you know? And btw, in removing the old tran & clutch, I called to ask Jim about a couple of things ahead of time....and he is absolutely a fantastic guy. Great knowledge, patience, and manner. I'll be doing a short write-up in the Transmission forum after I get this thing completed, just for some others to get a novice's perspective of the level of difficulty.

dbx1969
Jun 27th, 07, 03:58 PM
Also, if you can find a pipe easy out and bite it from the inside , it should bust or come out. Use a pipe wrench if you have to.

Not sure what one is:confused:. But also, could this work with a socket still jammed in it?

I should add....I'm showered and done for today, lol. I will attack the beast with any and all ideas tomorrow.

zdld17
Jun 27th, 07, 04:22 PM
Not sure what one is:confused:. But also, could this work with a socket still jammed in it?

I should add....I'm showered and done for today, lol. I will attack the beast with any and all ideas tomorrow.

No this easyout will not work on the socket but a good 18" pipe wrench with good jaws should bite socket if chrome is not heavy. Cant you tap socket side to side and jar out? 3/8" or 1/2 socket. You could also try dumping a can of freon , 134, on socket slow with a valve attached and maybe shrink socket enuff to get loose?

A pipe easy out is a square bladed thingy that comes if many sizes, you tap square end inside pipe and get a good bite on it, then turn CCW, if it gets loose, tap some more, don't give up, Winners find a way, losers find an excuse.

dbx1969
Jun 27th, 07, 04:55 PM
No this easyout will not work on the socket but a good 18" pipe wrench with good jaws should bite socket if chrome is not heavy. Cant you tap socket side to side and jar out? 3/8" or 1/2 socket. You could also try dumping a can of freon , 134, on socket slow with a valve attached and maybe shrink socket enuff to get loose?

A pipe easy out is a square bladed thingy that comes if many sizes, you tap square end inside pipe and get a good bite on it, then turn CCW, if it gets loose, tap some more, don't give up, Winners find a way, losers find an excuse.

It's a 1/4" socket (brand new, too...but hey, it's a metric :D). And heck yeah, I tried to "rock it" every which way, but the 11mm was nearly a perfect fit into the bushing, so there's really no play. And again, the socket is beyond being reachable with anything to grab the end.

And oh, I will find a way, by God! :). I will try the tap set idea tomorrow. If I can get the socket out I'll feel relieved, and can worry about the bushing itself with other proven methods....including using a damn bearing puller!

zdld17
Jun 27th, 07, 05:03 PM
Talk about a hard place, might try what someone mentioned, drill some 1/8" hole on the outside edge, of the bushing, maybe you can relieve some pressure and the bushing will collaspe? You are gonna be there a while. get your rest. I got a bushing and socket in hand, thinking...............You musta drove that socket in , this is a tight fit, can you turn socket with 1/4" breakover with out breaking breakover? If no, Hello Drill

birds69
Jun 27th, 07, 05:19 PM
Had the same problem with mine. Talked to a old timer at chevy garage, told me to get a 5/8 tap and tap out the pilot bushing. Then take a 4" 5/8 bolt screw it into bushing and it walk its way out. Worked out great.

Mkelcy
Jun 27th, 07, 05:24 PM
Had the same problem with mine. Talked to a old timer at chevy garage, told me to get a 5/8 tap and tap out the pilot bushing. Then take a 4" 5/8 bolt screw it into bushing and it walk its way out. Worked out great.


Yup, that's the part I forgot.

69L65-4spd
Jun 27th, 07, 05:24 PM
Sounds like the socket is #1 problem. Gotta go with zdld17 on the easy out. You're going to end up destroying the socket any way. Give that a try.

Might be a possibility to drill it out but the socket is probably hardned so you'd need a good bit. Make sure that bit is larger than socket.

I changed my pilot bearing out a few years ago and thought about the grease method but only for about a millisecond. I'm cheap but not that cheap. Sounded way to messy. I ended up renting the proper tool from a rental place. Places like Auto Zone might have loaners for free. Good luck.

bdzee
Jun 27th, 07, 06:33 PM
Some good ideas here, I've got one also. Wet some paper towels with water and stuff the pieces in the hole. Get a wood dowel or metal dowel or something close to the same size of the inside of the pilot bearing. Tap on the dowel little by little when it seems bottomed out add some more wet paper towels and tap again and continue for a few passes----you will see the pilot bearing making its way out! Hydraulics-----works everytime. Good luck!

clill
Jun 27th, 07, 08:16 PM
I always use a 5/8" coarse tap but you have the socket to figure out first.

novaderrik
Jun 27th, 07, 08:28 PM
stick a ratchet on the socket and start turning the socket. as you do it, wiggle it back and forth.
this will eventually get the socket out of the way..
as for the bushing, i like the idea of the long 5/8" bolt that bottoms out on the crank and pushes the bushing out..
never thought of that before- i've usually just made a puller by forcing a bolt into the bushing (i don't own a tap set- i just make a regular bolt into a self tapping bolt on the bench grinder), with a piece of angle iron with a bolt and nut on each end to push the whole works out.
but i've also done them a few other ways- i'm poor, so i sometimes gotta "McGyver" a solution using whatever i have available.

dbx1969
Jun 27th, 07, 08:55 PM
Talk about a hard place, might try what someone mentioned, drill some 1/8" hole on the outside edge, of the bushing, maybe you can relieve some pressure and the bushing will collaspe? You are gonna be there a while. get your rest. I got a bushing and socket in hand, thinking...............You musta drove that socket in , this is a tight fit, can you turn socket with 1/4" breakover with out breaking breakover? If no, Hello Drill

Lol @ the "get your rest". Yep, I was DONE when I came in here to ask for help. I did drive the socket in, but it kept coming out okay at least 10+ times. I'm thinking that I must have angled it a bit without knowing, there at the end.

Had the same problem with mine. Talked to a old timer at chevy garage, told me to get a 5/8 tap and tap out the pilot bushing. Then take a 4" 5/8 bolt screw it into bushing and it walk its way out. Worked out great.

I checked my set and 1/2" is the largest tap I have. I can probably buy a single 5/8" tap at Home Depot etc... I just gotta get that socket out first. Perhaps with an appropriate sized tap, but I will first try with an extension and try to turn it to un-seize it.

Sounds like the socket is #1 problem. Gotta go with zdld17 on the easy out. You're going to end up destroying the socket any way. Give that a try.

Might be a possibility to drill it out but the socket is probably hardned so you'd need a good bit. Make sure that bit is larger than socket.

I changed my pilot bearing out a few years ago and thought about the grease method but only for about a millisecond. I'm cheap but not that cheap. Sounded way to messy. I ended up renting the proper tool from a rental place. Places like Auto Zone might have loaners for free. Good luck.

Yep, the socket is #1 problem right now. Believe it or not, even though I was warned that grease would shoot out everywhere, the socket was such a tight fit that the grease only oozed out between the ratchet squares and the bottom of the socket. But yeah, it was still messy:)

Some good ideas here, I've got one also. Wet some paper towels with water and stuff the pieces in the hole. Get a wood dowel or metal dowel or something close to the same size of the inside of the pilot bearing. Tap on the dowel little by little when it seems bottomed out add some more wet paper towels and tap again and continue for a few passes----you will see the pilot bearing making its way out! Hydraulics-----works everytime. Good luck!

Thats ^ the same principle with the grease....and it ain't gettin' it :D

I always use a 5/8" coarse tap but you have the socket to figure out first.

Yes, the socket first.

Guys, thanks very much for all your replies and ideas. I'm sure that after a good night sleep and cooler morning hours, that I can tackle this tomorrow with a fresh perspective. I exercise 6 days per week, and had just worked out prior to tackling this. It was around 90F today, too, and that didn't help coupled with the cramped quarters under the car. Hell, now I better get it out, as I'm all out of excuses :D. I'll let you all know how it turns out.

Thanks again!

wagonman
Jun 27th, 07, 08:57 PM
grease is the best way!!!!

hydraulic preasure cant be beat!!!!

you simply used the wrong size socket!!!

find something like a bolt or round stock that fits better.........

or... get a pilot bearing puller.OTC makes a nice one...

dbx1969
Jun 27th, 07, 08:59 PM
stick a ratchet on the socket and start turning the socket. as you do it, wiggle it back and forth.

Sorry, I didn't see your reply. I'm going to try this ^ first and see what happens.

dbx1969
Jun 28th, 07, 09:33 AM
Okay, I was lucky getting the socket out (took less than 5 minutes). It's amazing how a fresh new day can help:).

However.....no such luck with the bushing itself. Sure enough, Auto Zone "lends" out bearing pullers with hammer slide, but the puller was too big. The guy even told me it was cool to grind down the tips to make it fit...so I did. After 5-6 blows the "teeth" would break away a small chip from the back of the bearing. 2 more times...gave up. Went to Advance and checked out their pullers....not going to work. Bought a chisel there. Went to Home depot looking for a 5/8" tap...couldn't find one...and nobody there to help. Saw a bigger chisel there, and bought it, lol. Returned the other kit to Auto Zone and returned home. Spent nearly one full non-stop freakin' hour chiseling this bearing. The good news is....I am good at destroying things:D. I was wondering if it would ever degrade after pounding and pounding and scoring sections of the bearing. Then....I saw a fairly big piece get pushed to the back. No stopping now! I just kept on and on and on... and finally, got it all out. Guys, this thing was practically welded in there. Hydraulic voodoo and all the bearing pullers in the world wouldn't have gotten this bearing out. Here's a pic of what was left of it:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/dbx/1969Camaro013.jpg

Thanks again for your replies and ideas. It's a great feeling to know you can come here and tap some brains for help :thumbsup:. I now wait for Sunday to continue with the new clutch and tran. install.

4birdman
Jun 28th, 07, 10:01 AM
What about putting a breaker bar in and trying to crank it out that way? It may bring the pilot bushing with it.

If not, use a sawzall, they fix everything, right? :P

4birdman
Jun 28th, 07, 10:02 AM
Whoops, just saw you got it.

go2fast
Jun 29th, 07, 09:52 AM
When all else fails the BFH comes to the rescue! :-)

BPOS
Jun 29th, 07, 10:30 AM
The 5/8" tap with a nut welded on the end and an impact gun makes it about a 3 second job. Just for future reference. Glad you got it out.

Farm Boy
Jun 29th, 07, 10:51 AM
I really recommend you use a new 100% bronze pilot bushing. Most of the pilot bushings available today are made in China and are 60% bronze and 40% iron. They are even putting these junk pilot bushings in new clutch kits! The iron pilot bushings don’t have as good of lubrication properties as a 100% Oilite bronze bushing. Also many of the Chinese iron bushings are slightly oversize which makes them hard to install and remove. Over time the iron can damage the input shaft of your transmission.

If a magnet will stick to your new pilot bushing it has iron in it and you should not use it.

Napa stores carry the good 100% bronze heavy duty pilot bushings. The part number is BK 6151161. For only $3.29 it is good insurance.

Napa also carries the junk iron pilot bushing for $1.69. Don’t buy this one.

Never use grease on a pilot bushing. Pilot bushings are impregnated with oil and are self lubricated. Grease will plug the pores and limit the self oiling properties of the Oilite bushing. Install it with only a small amount of light oil.

68z28sd
Jun 29th, 07, 10:57 AM
go to your chev dealer and get a roller piolot brg, i think the aplication is for a 6.2 deisel.

zdld17
Jun 29th, 07, 01:36 PM
go to your chev dealer and get a roller piolot brg, i think the aplication is for a 6.2 deisel.


Or the GM bronze bushing.

Mkelcy
Jun 29th, 07, 02:06 PM
go to your chev dealer and get a roller piolot brg, i think the aplication is for a 6.2 deisel.

Here's another area where I'm not sure new is better. With a properly aligned bellhousing, I just don't see people wearing out pilot bushings more oftn than clutches. And when it does wear out, I can tell you I'd MUCH rather replace a bushing using the 5/8" tap method than a pilot bearing, which will require a puller.

dbx1969
Jun 29th, 07, 04:14 PM
Thanks for the additional responses, guys. The bushing I removed appeared to be steel, definitely not bronze or brass:confused:. But...the purpose of removing the bushing was simply to replace it with a roller bearing that came with the TKO-600 I plan to install tomorrow:). I got the clutch & new bell housing a few hrs ago.

And while I couldn't find a 5/8" tap like I intended to, this bearing was practically welded in place....and no hydraulic methods mentioned here would have worked in this case. Additionally, after having to cold chisel it off the walls up to the very end, I am all but certain that a tap would not have worked either! Remember, a bearing puller & slide hammer merely chipped pieces from the back side, but would not budge the bushing one little bit. I truly believe it had to come out as it did....with a chisel and hammer.

And to prepare for tomorrow's installation? My son and I managed to finish replacing the upper and lower ball joints on the driver's side only, on my wife's Ford Exp. This is not an easy task for me either, lol. But from what we ran into, I'm assuming we completed the "difficult side" today. I need a good night sleep!:D

JohnZ
Jul 3rd, 07, 04:55 PM
I always use a 5/8" coarse tap but you have the socket to figure out first.

Same thing I do - once you get the socket out, run a 5/8" tap through it, then use a 5/8" bolt and turn it 'til it bottoms out in the crank, then keep turning it and the bushing will come right out. Quick and easy, no hassles with pullers, input shafts, grease, etc. :thumbsup:

bighaas79
Jul 3rd, 07, 05:39 PM
I have usually just used a die grinder with a 1/4 inch straight bit in it to just make A "cut" into the pilot bearing being very careful as i get close to the crank usually when you get close to being thru the bearing wil crack at the thin point and you can just pop the bearing right out with your fingers. Some times it takes a little prying but by the time they crack the friction between the bearing and the crank is lessened and much easier to pull out.

zdld17
Jul 3rd, 07, 05:57 PM
Doesnt any one ever apply some type of anti sieze on the bushings. I have never heard of so many people having this problem.

Farm Boy
Jul 3rd, 07, 06:33 PM
I have never heard of so many people having this problem.
It wasn’t a problem until just a few years ago when the cheap Chinese pilot bushings hit our auto parts stores. They are not only adulterated with iron, but many of them are slightly oversize making it a pain to install or remove them. I have used the 5/8 tap and bolt method of removal successfully for over 30 years. I have never had a problem removing a pilot bushing until recently. The iron/bronze bushing I was working on was so tight that my 5/8 bolt pulled the new threads right out. I had to drill multiple holes in the bushing and finish it off with a chisel.

If you get nothing else from this thread remember this:
Never install a pilot bushing that will stick to a magnet.

dbx1969
Jul 3rd, 07, 06:46 PM
The iron/bronze bushing I was working on was so tight that my 5/8 bolt pulled the new threads right out. I had to drill multiple holes in the bushing and finish it off with a chisel.
.


Finally, someone who understands! :D

And while I was chiseling.........it was clear that this bushing was nearly welded to the walls. I started out cutting it in quarters...then into 8ths...and I finally saw a nice chunk move from the back. But it still took nearly an hour of non-stop chiseling to get the entire thing out! I was SOOOOO glad I didn't waste another few bucks on a 5/8" tap (my set goes up to 1/2") and a bolt to fit. It would have done exactly what you described above, Farm Boy.

zdld17
Jul 3rd, 07, 08:29 PM
Cheap China stuff. What else is gonna show up . I normally pick up two if I need only one , from the GM dealer. This way I will have one when they are closed and cheap china is the only thing open.

68Baldwin
Jul 3rd, 07, 08:37 PM
Back in the 1970's I learn this little trick,cut up a bar of soap,pack it into the center of the pilot bushing and with a old output shaft pack the soap.Eventually the soap pushes the bearing out from behind.

JohnZ
Jul 4th, 07, 04:50 PM
The GM 100% sintered oilite bronze pilot bushing is P/N 3752487; the needle roller bearing is P/N 14061685.

If you go to NAPA (or anywhere else) for one, be sure and take a magnet with you - their #BK-6151161 is 100% oilite bronze, but their #BK-6151014 is 60% oilite bronze, 40% iron (Chinese).


:beers:

pdq67
Jul 4th, 07, 07:18 PM
Thanks John,

Now I know why the one I put in my 496 was so hard to install!!

Not happy at all.

pdq67

zdld17
Jul 4th, 07, 08:53 PM
Back in the 1970's I learn this little trick,cut up a bar of soap,pack it into the center of the pilot bushing and with a old output shaft pack the soap.Eventually the soap pushes the bearing out from behind.
this is actually a new one, never heard of soap flakes. You can also use the rigid Lincoln grease gun tip, it fits snug into the bearing hole. Hold the gun in the hole as a couple pumps of grease will pop the bearing out or shove the gun tip out..

jfreddy29
Oct 25th, 08, 02:44 PM
Try www.springertool.com for that clutch pilot busing removal tool.