I'm trying to get my racer dialed in on E-85. I think I am close, but was looking to see what others are doing as far as jetting and timing. Last time out, as all of the gas guys were speeding up, I was slowing down, so that leads me to beleive that I am still too lean. Other times when I question if I am going the right direction with jets, I've removed the air cleaner, and it always slows down (usually around 2 mph), Here is my engine combination:

355 SBC
13:1
215 runner Dart iron heads
255/264@ .050 solid flat tappet
Single plane "Professional Products" intake
750 Carb (old alky main body w/E85 billet blocks)

My jetting is at 94/96 with no power valves, timing is locked at 37 deg.
I would like to run a power valve because it is driven some on the street, but It always slows down when I try one. I tried a 4.5 with anywhere from 86 to 90 jets. I then put it back to my baseline and it always picks up .2/3mph.

Just looking to see what others are using and any suggestions on what to try. I am very pleased with how it works, I just think there is a little more left in the combination.

Thanks in advance

Darin

First, welcome to Team Camaro! It's good to see another E85 "user" around here.

Do you have anything to measure your AF ratio with? It is really tough reading plugs using E85 in my opinion. The black fire ring on the insulator is from the 15% gasoline and am not sure what to think about reading it. I am using an LM1 and find it invaluable for tuning with E85.

I am using an AED Holley 850. It has AED Alky metering blocks with the jet threads bushed down to fit gasoline jets. I am running 76/93 jets with .077" PVCR and 10.5" power valve. If I were not running a power valve my jetting would be 93 square -- almost identical to you but in theory my carb flows nearly 100 cfm more than your carb.

I used my LM1 to get my tuneup where it is and under WOT it is .78-.80 Lambda. That is where I make best power on the chassis dyno using E85. My engine is 11.4:1 with a 252/254 on a 108 LSA cam.

I am thinking you are on the rich side, but I know that AED built the metering blocks in my carb with the intention to pull a lot of fuel (emulsion well and cross channel set up for alky) so that is kind of a subjective comment. Maybe you could try leaning it out a little at a time from where you are at and see if the MPH picks up.

I found that E85 does not make black smoke or bog out like gasoline under full throttle when it is rich. It doesn't bog out in my car until I get way down around .66-.68 Lambda and even then there is no smoke. At cruise it will pop and spit when too rich (acts like lean on gasoline). That is why I have a very large PVCR and smallish primary jet. I drive to and from the track so cruise AF and driveability is a big factor for me.

Also, if you need some real knowledgeable help, I would suggest talking to John Dickey at AED. Super nice guy and he has helped me a lot. 804-271-9107

Hope that helps.

On your timing question, I found that mine likes the dizzy locked out and 34* total.

Welcome!
I am also an E85 user. Like Eric, I would call John at AED. He can help you get dialed in.
My combo is a 13:1 427BBC in a street/strip car.
I am jetted 75 in front and 100 in the rear. My power valve is a Holley Hi-flow 10.5"hg. My car likes 39 degrees of total timing, and I use a vacuum advance diaphram in my distributor for street driving.
When I was using an alcohol 4.5 or 6.5 power valve, the car would not run properly so I switched to a 10.5. That cleared the trouble up (thanks Eric).
It sounds like you are way rich to me. What kind of vacuum does your engine pull at idle and running down the road?
Try a jet in the low 70's in the front with a power valve and a mid 90's in the rear with no powervalve.
Also, if you are running a methanol center body, your air bleeds will likely be WAY off.
I run a 73 idle air bleed and a 33 high speed bleed.
Best of luck!
Smitty

OK, now you guys have my interest. I was considered "taming" down my engine because I'm tired of driving 10 miles and paying $6.00/gallon for racing fuel. but if i can run E-85 in my 13:1 engine I'm all for it. What do I have to do?

I have logged over 1,000 miles in my 13:1 compression Camaro with the E85. The fuel system has been wet with E85 for over a year with no corrosion problems........
I have an aluminum fuel cell, aluminum fuel lines, and a Holley blue pump (all the "wrong" stuff). I think what is saving my system from corrosion is the upper cylinder lubricant that I mix with each tank of E85.
Basicly, all I did to convert was buy an AED Performance E85 carburator.
Chris

My engine only has 5.5 to 6" vacuum at idle. I've never checked to see what it has going down the road. I didn't realize that you can run that much of a spread on jetting with a power valve. I may have had it too rich when I ran a power valve during my testing. Just more things to try before next time out.

Thanks for all of the replies!

Darin

You can run that big of a spread and i personally think you need to with E85. The fuel is similar to gas but it seems to have somedifferent burn characteristics (likes a lean cruise with a fast opening power valve, and lots of low RPM timing)

Glad to hear the 10.5" PV worked for you Chris!

Smits,

What's your top oil??

Good old MMO or Bardahl?? Wynn's by chance......

pdq67

Paul,
MMO brother!!!! :)
Smitty

I love it!!

pdq67

how much Marvel do you run to how much fuel?
i really want to build a motor with way too much compression so i can use E85 in my Monte daily..

Eric,

They are doing studies to determine how much lubricity to add back to ALL fuels now that sulfur is going to be down to 15 ppm!

And I read where they are thinking about adding 1 to 3 percent "neet"/100 percent pure Soy Bio-Diesel back into diesel fuels to help their injectors and pumps live.

I figure about the same will need to be added back to E85 too as well as ultra low sulfur unleaded gasoline but I can't prove it??

I mouth about MMO only b/c I figure that it is probably a multi-ester based product like 100 percent pure Soy Bio-Diesel is!

Soy Bio-Diesel has been proven to improve eff. of IC engines by up to 3 percent due to their great lubricity properties the esters in it have! And I'm talking in amounts added of up to a half pint to a 5 quart oil change!

(Fwiw, Roil say's something like a shotglass if I remember right for the lubricity improver they market..).....

I think they are adding Soy Bio-Diesel back into ultra low sulfur diesels now, but I can't honestly say if the stuff is going back into E85 and ultra low sulfur gas or not.. But I figure it is b/c it's cheap...

pdq67

I run one ounce of MMO in every gallon of E85.
10 gallon fuel cell.....10 ounces of MMO per fill-up.

Thanks for all of the info everybody! It is greatly appriciated.
I just got done putting a different intake on to try for next time out in 2 weeks. I took of a Professional Products single plane and put on a re-worked Strip Dominator. I am going to mess with it a little this week on trying to make the power valve work.
With my low vacuum at idle, what valve would you recommend that I try? Also where do you recommend that I start with jetting?

Again thanks for all of the help!

Darin

Darin,
How much vacuum do you have at idle?
With a power valve I would start with 74's in front with a .070 idle air bleed and a .033 running air bleed.
In the rear, with a plug where the power valve should be, I would start with 94's (same bleeds as above).
Call AED and order a power valve to suit your engine's vacuum requirements.
Smitty

Just keep in mind that vacuum at idle has very little to do with your engines power valve requirements. I know that is contrary to all the conventional wisdom (as well as contrary to what I've said before) but what I've learned is that the engine doesn't care whether the PV is open or closed at idle because you are on the idle circuit at idle and the PV effects the main circuit.

I would suggest that you Use a power valve that is roughly half of your vacuum at freeway cruise -- that is what my car likes with E85. The same may hold true for gasoline, but from what I've seen gas doesn't seem to be as finicky with cruise as E85 (again my engine is all I've messed with using E85). I would stick with the 94's in back and go to a 76 jet in front and .077" power valve channel restrictors. But that is just BALL PARK based on what I am running in mine. Yours, in theory, should be alot richer with that jetting since your carb is smaller than mine.

I agree with Smitty's suggestion to call AED. I'm a newbe with E85 and John Dickey has done quite a bit more with it than I have. I know that the metering blocks they put in my carb are intended for Alky and have some modifications for E85.

I went out and messed with it a little last night and the best vacuum I could get idling was 7 in park and about 5.5-6 in gear. Part throttle cruise was 12. I usually put it in neutral idling at stops. Should I try a 5.5 or a 6.5?

Thanks

Darin

I would go higher. With part throttle cruise at 12", anything from 8.5 to 10.5 could be the right one.

As Eric pointed out, idle vac, in gear or not, has NOTHING to do with power valve selection.

With my wb & vac gauge, I can "see" the "powervalve" open on my carb. At cruise, AFR is 13.5 (gas) vac is 20. At 10" vac high gear, afr is 15. At 8, the rods pull (ede carb) and the AFR goes to 12.

I would try a 6.5 to start and maybe work your way to a 7.5 or 8.5 if you have "medium load" lean spots. For example, mine was lean in the burnout box and lean while accelerating to get on the freeway. Basically whenever I was only on the primaries but had my foot into it a little bit (more than cruise) is when I was lean (like 30-40% throttle).

Mine cruises on the freeway at 3500 rpm with 20" vacuum so it seems that I may need a higher opening PV than you. At slow speed cruising the car makes anywhere from 13" just off idle to about 18" at about 45 mph.

I am curious what you find out when you try this. I know my car and Smitty's car both liked a power valve with a high set point -- I am curious if yours is the same way on E85 or if it is an AED carb thing.

I am with Eric on this one. Please let us know.
Smitty

I tried a 6.5 valve with 78/94 jetting. I haven't had a chance to actually drive it on the road yet because I am doing some rear brake work, but I ran it on the jackstands a little before and after the change and it seems to have taken care of alot of the part throttle "popping". I will get a chance to drive it this weekend and I will let you know how it works.

Thanks again

Darin

If it is still popping a little at cruise try going smaller on the front main jet. You can go bigger on the PVCRs later if you need to get the right WOT mixture. My sneaking suspicion is that you may have a little too much jet in it all the way around, but we can't prove it without an LM1 or a few passes at the track . . .

Guess we won't know about cruise until you get it on the road to test -- thanks for the update!

Well, I drove it this morning, it drives WAY better on a part throttle cruise. I will get a chance to go to the track next weekend, so we will see what the timeslip says. I am going to take a little more jet out of the front before then, and will sneak up on it to see what it likes at WOT. If I have to jet up much more to get the number at the strip, then should I increase the PVCR and take some jet out for driveability sake? If so, how much increase in PVCR does it take to "add" a jet size at WOT?

I really appriciate all of the help from everyone!

Thanks alot

Darin

I would get the main jet right for driveability and leave it alone. Then tweak the PVCR for optimum WOT AF ratio.

Thanks for the update -- sounds like you are close!

This isn't always the case but it's worth considering dropping the timing for ET purposes. I drove my dads car (which is on just alcohol) and it ran 6.0's in the 1/8 on gas with 38* and on alcohol it wants it about 34* and it ran 5.9's yanking the wheels hard. My 468 is also on alcohol and it likes it about 34*, I would assume the E85 is about the same.

Oddly enough, my engine does not respond well to much less than 38 degrees on E85.
At the moment I am set at 39 degrees, and it performs best there.

This sounds great but where to get E85? In the Seattle area, I've asked about it and some folks have never even heard of it.

Try searching the net for "E85 stations" or similar. That is how I got a list of stations in Michigan. Try Mapquest -- looks like there are two stations southwest of Tacoma off I-5. (not too close to Seattle)

Smitty, FYI -- your BBC probably has dome pistons and as a result it will want more timing. If it runs best with 38-39* then it would probably want even more gasoline.

Well, made it to the track Saturday. Weather and track conditions were far from ideal, but despite all of that, I am pleased with the results from all of your suggestions! In the heat of the day, my numbers were very close to my best numbers in the late evening from earlier in the year. I ended up using a 6.5" power valve with 76/96 jetting with a .077 PVCR, and 38 deg timing. It drives like a dream on the street.

I think before I do much more with it, I am going to get an LM-1. That will be a whole new learning curve in itself!!

Thanks again

Darin

Darin,
That is wonderful news (I just love ethanol) !
Keep the reports coming. Are you using a bypass regulated fuel system? My car responded well to that type of system. My pump stays cool (never dead-heads) which helps it last longer, and my fuel is continually being circulated back to the cell (no vaporization). My car is built for the drag strip, but spends 99.9% of it's time on the street.

Eric, To say that my BB probably has domes would be an understatement! I don't think I could get much more dome in those chambers. As a matter of fact, I did some machining done to the chamber itself to cure a mechanical interference during assembly!
Smitty

Thanks for the follow up Darrin -- its good to know you were able to get her close!