Hi I hava a childhood friend that I have lovingly been competing with forever. We have had many many car battles. We he recently purchaced a 2003 mustang Corba. With a bit of tweaking a blower change and a dyno tune he is making 550 RWHP. I drove this car all I can say is WOW.
So my new mission is to build a drivetrian that will mike this kind of power.
I want it to run on pump gas and be a small block. I was thinking of a blown ls7 but that is around 15 Grand. I would actually like to do this old school. Maybe an aftermarket Little M block FAST EFI and a blower. Any thoughts appreciated . This is going to be part of my winter overhaul.

Sound's like you've already got a plan to me.

Just pick some good breathing heads and match the cam and go.

Good luck w/ your project.

Oh, and btw, you might want to go over to MadMike's great SGCOG site and contact RickWi

He's got a strong aluminum 454 SB that you might look over is all.

pdq67

Contact Jeff Lawrence at Lawrence Racing Engines.

Lawrence Racing Engines Incorporated
241 Riverhead Rd
Westhampton Beach, NY 11978

(631) 288-4575

He built a 450 HP 383 for my Camaro.

Ask him to build you a Big Block.

I built a 406 small block, Vic Jr. heads, and a hydraulic roller and D1SC Procharger that made 700 rwhp on 91 octane pump gas. Nothing exotic in the engine, just a good rotating assembly, decent heads, and 14 psi of boost!

Jody

He, He!!

Nothing exotic EXCEPT 14 pounds a boost!!

Right you are Jody!

See, some boost and you are good to go at these power levels like Jody said!

pdq67

Jody, I'm smiling ear to ear looking at your yellow car with the Arias. Too cool:D. The torque curve is something to behold.

And your LT1 project, your last sentence makes me think
" be vewwwy kwiet, wew hunting wabbits" I love it:D

A quick question on your yellow Arias. I like the way you routed the water temp wire under the intake and I see in the 11th picture that there is something above and right of the hot water hose. Is that another water temp probe you enlisted as a throttle return spring anchor? Or something else? And did that intake come with the hole you are using for water temp or did you drill it? I like it.

Lexus, I don't blame you wanting old school. But examine what you are competing against and it is anything but old school. They can get 100 horse with software nowadays. If you beat him old school you'll just pay the price in economy. I like Jody's train of thought. And be vewwwy kwiet, wew hunting kobwas:D

"More cubes means more power". If you must build a small block stroke it! I would shoot for 434-454 cubic inches.

A quick question on your yellow Arias. I like the way you routed the water temp wire under the intake and I see in the 11th picture that there is something above and right of the hot water hose. Is that another water temp probe you enlisted as a throttle return spring anchor? Or something else? And did that intake come with the hole you are using for water temp or did you drill it? I like it.



I can't see exactly which pic you're referring to, but there were two water temp senders; one for the FAST EFI and a separate for my water temp gauge. The hole on the drivers side of the thermostat housing was drilled for a sender, and the other one up front was also there, but originally was for a bypass hose on the big block. I used it for the EFI sender and didn't use a bypass, using a thermostat with a few tiny drilled holes instead to keep air out of the system. Thanks for the nice words, much appreciated.

Jody

I can't see exactly which pic you're referring to, but there were two water temp senders; one for the FAST EFI and a separate for my water temp gauge. The hole on the drivers side of the thermostat housing was drilled for a sender, and the other one up front was also there, but originally was for a bypass hose on the big block. I used it for the EFI sender and didn't use a bypass, using a thermostat with a few tiny drilled holes instead to keep air out of the system. Thanks for the nice words, much appreciated.

Jody

This pic

http://www.camcojb.com/zl1index/zl1motor.jpg

about 4" away from the thermo hsg, looks like a spring going to what I now understand is the sender for your gauge. I just don't see a wire attached. Maybe what I think is a spring is a wire:) . Thanks for clarification.

And you are welcome, good work deserves acknowledgement.

When you start mixing streetable with 550 plus horsepower AT THE TIRES.....your options get real limited. First of all, plan for at least 650 at the flywheel. So in terms of a small block, even a big small block, your not making that kind of power in a streetable package unless its either sporting some kind of forced induction.......or you build a bigger, streetable small block and then hit it with nitrous when you need the 550 plus.

A naturally aspirated small block(even a big one) making 650 plus at the crank to put that much to the tires WILL be a handful. So, I say aftermarket block, 400ish inches, and boost! That will meet your goal in a streetable package.

Or the other options.......lots of cubic inches can do it naturally aspirated and maintain enough street manners. Were talking a mininum of a 500 inch big block to make the power and truly maintain street manners.

Which direction do you want to go?

I like the little M built with somewhere around 400 inches with some sort of blower myself if the foundation is a small block. A good supercharger would be preferred really......more efficient and stealthy than a roots blower. A good blow thru carb would do the trick as well. Your decision on that.

I tend to look at it this way just to get me in the ballpark....

18 percent drive train eff. loss so...............

550 rwhp = 550/.82 = 670 hp or thereabouts!!

May not be 18 percent w/ a regular 1 to 1 ratio 4th gear 4-speed stick, OR it may be more w/ a big automatic like a 400 or a Ford C-6 w/ a poor converter???

pdq67

A naturally aspirated small block(even a big one) making 650 plus at the crank to put that much to the tires WILL be a handful.



He speaks the truth. If wolf was home I'd take you for a video ride. I'm telling you, 20- 30 minutes tops is all you want to spend in that car. You got to rest and calm down. NOT street friendly.

pdq, your numbers are close to deadly accurate as usual. Wolf's 412 is 677 fwhp 592 tq dynosim, and my et/mph say 625ish fwhp 520ish rwhp at 3320#. I was leaving a buncha et and mph laying on the track burning rubber clean into 2nd gear. And that's where wolf is now, getting more traction.

Think I will start by trying to win this...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=013&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=230144743126&rd=1&rd=1

Just a forewarning ahead of time.....it is NOT easy to get the compression low with big displacement small blocks such as that. We know that its a 400 bore with a longer 4 inch stroke, and unless otherwise modified, those heads are 72CC. Depending on the pistons, the compression will be real high. Higher than youd want to run on pump fuel naturally aspirated, let alone with forced induction.

And in general, with that long of an arm on a standard deck block, pistons to make low compression arent real common(its just hard to have enough dish to make low comp). So keep that in mind if its supposed to be a pump gas deal....especially with the blower. Its easier to keep it at a 3.75 crank, use a 72-76CC head and dished pistons to knock the compression down. So whether or not it is doable is one thing.....but check on those pistons cause it may not be at all doable as is if this thing is 12.5:1 for example with whatever pistons are in it.

A naturally asperated GM 572 CID crate motor will easily make enough HP to blow the slowbra away.

Heck, going that route, I figure that i can home brew an aftermarket standard deck height BB block and come up w/ a 588" jobber that WON'T be a race motor, but it w/ still be one heck of a strong street motor!!

For like not all that much more that the difference in the cost of a Dart or a Merlin II block and some cheap 350 to 360 out of the box cast-iron heads.

Say, about like 10 to 1 CR. and just a big solid lifter cam is all......

pdq67

I am pretty married to Small block. 700 hp on a BB is not rocket science. Regarding the compression ratio issues that have come up. I was thinking that the block crank head combo that is in the auction is pretty hard to beat. If I have to go with new pistons and sell the ones supplied no biggie. Unless what I am hearing is that it will be hard to find blower pistons for this combo?

Well, the auction in your link ended June 29.

I have a printout of JE's line, from internet a few years back. It doesn't show a 4" stroke inv. dome.

But that doesn't mean some aren't available for a price.
You could play with compression heights and conn rods and maybe find something that works together.

The 4.125 inv. domess they show are either -28 or -36 cc

First, I doubt a "tweaked" Cobra has 550 at the wheels,..which is about 675 at the flywheel, but forget that.

You need a BB. 600 HP and more is child's play and not that expensive with a stroked 454 or a 502, etc.

But forget that.

Here's what hasn't been mentioned. Everything you have now between the radiator and rear lug nuts will likely have to be replaced and that's where most your money will be spent.

Do some searches,..trannies, 12-bolt or a nine, driveshaft, axles, fuel supply, traction, etc, etc. Then, you'll need to frim up the body or will will pretzel. Plenty of good info from some good folks here on this site.

Yes it will be tough, and I suggest you speak to some piston suppliers before you build. Real big small blocks arent my thing, so Im not sure just how low you can actually get the compression. But here is some info that I can give you.

Just when browsing online, Ive found a few pistons from wiseco and mahle. The biggest inverted dome piston Ive found for a 4 inch stroke motor is -20cc. With a 4.125 bore....this is still 10.5:1 comp with a 64cc head. Going to 72 will drop the compresion a little, but not much. You will need a big inverted dome and big chambers to bring the comp down enough to run boost and stay on pump fuel.

This is why Id talk to the piston guys. They all have custom order forms and they may be able to whip something up for you. And once again, since big inch and low compression small blocks(over 406 inches) aint my thing....I cant be sure whether they can do it within the limitations of a standard deck block and that long of a stroke.

I still stick by what I was sayin before though.....for more than one reason Id stay with a 3.75 stroke. Number one.....little easier to find pistons. And number two, with forced induction, torque wont be a problem.

If youve ever been behind the wheel of a well done 400, they make plenty of torque as is naturally aspirated. It just gets bigger with boost. Id use the 3.75 crank to keep parts selection a little easier and more conventional, put the boost to it, and let it RPM easier with the shorter crank(less fatigue spinning a shorter stroke). I think this would be the easiest way....but once again, call around to the quality piston suppliers and see what they can make you

I am pretty married to Small block. 700 hp on a BB is not rocket science. Regarding the compression ratio issues that have come up. I was thinking that the block crank head combo that is in the auction is pretty hard to beat. If I have to go with new pistons and sell the ones supplied no biggie. Unless what I am hearing is that it will be hard to find blower pistons for this combo?

Yeah but that's the beauty of it, the 572's make great power straight out of the box, simple is better. You can call any piston manufacture and they will custom make you any piston you want.

GM's 572 comes with oil and a waurranty, all for $13K. You add carb and exhaust, fan, maybe, I'm thinking elec fan, and go.

Life may be easier if you limit your crank to a 3.875" stroked jobber.

Using an aftermarket block that will bore to 4.200" gives a 429.5" engine!

pdq67

I don't think that the $13k price tag you object to is all that unrealistic for the power you are talking about. This is not a cheap project -- besides the power, you will need the rest of the drive train and chassis setup to handle the power. After all, how much does your buddy have in this Cobra including purchase price? (I'm guessing probably close to the cost of a new Vette)

Personally, I can tell you that I have seen a few tweaked Cobras boasting big RWHP numbers that I have beat handily at the strip with FAR LESS power. 450 HP to the wheels and a chassis that is setup up correctly (ie: sixty foot times in the 1.4's) will blow away this Cobra. Yes, he will blow by you 10 MPH faster through after you cross the finish line . . . but who cares?

My experience is that these chassis dyno queens won't hook up . . .

PS. a hot NA small block 383 will probably do the trick, but you can always have a little "chemical enhancement" waiting in case you need it. That's the most cost effective way I can think of to "git er done"

Straght line...
just a few answers for you. 550 hp done... KENNE bell Supercharager and a few bolt ons exaust instake and some other tricks. This is not even as hich as he could go easily but he doesnt want to go into the internals.
His builder has an 800 hp cobra work horse with not much more than that. (Shop Name =Mustang Majic I believe)
I have a dated rock crusher and 12 bolt posi in the car. Plan is to sell those to interested restoration folks and go with a currie Ford rear and a Viper 6 speed with some extra $$ added in.

If I were you I'd look into this...

http://www.racingjunk.com/post/378668/Procharger-Small-Block-F-1R-Street-Strip-Kit.html

If I had the dough I'd build a 377 with that on it but that's not an option for me.

So my new mission is to build a drivetrian that will mike this kind of power.

I want it to run on pump gas and be a small block. I was thinking of a blown ls7 but that is around 15 Grand. I would actually like to do this old school. Maybe an aftermarket Little M block FAST EFI and a blower. Any thoughts appreciated . This is going to be part of my winter overhaul.

You dont need a big block.

10.8 to 11.2:1 420cid little m. AFR head. Roller cam around 0.600 to 0.635 lift. With a carb... Holley HP950 and a Super Victor. With EFI... I guess it depends on what you want to run, but the new EFI Tuner system from Edelebrock has what it takes to do this and more.

Or...

An LS2/3 with a cam swap and the right headers will do 500+rwhp without breaking a sweat. Not to mention that the LS2/3 only runs a few bucks over $5650.00. Now if you went a little more aggressive with the camshaft and paid some attention to the cylinderheads... 600+rwhp is within reach.

Just curious where you get a LS2/3 for $5650 Chicayne . . . not doubting, just thinkin' ;)

I like the big inch sbc with the bottle for power and reliablity....something like this would do....

406 sbc
AFR 210 eliminators
11 to 1's
XR300R hyd roller
Super Victor
Holley HP 950
1 3/4" long tubes
3" x pipe
NX 150 shot......


This set up would CRUSH him at the strip.....

Straght line...
just a few answers for you. 550 hp done... KENNE bell Supercharager and a few bolt ons exaust instake and some other tricks. This is not even as hich as he could go easily but he doesnt want to go into the internals.
His builder has an 800 hp cobra work horse with not much more than that. (Shop Name =Mustang Majic I believe)
I have a dated rock crusher and 12 bolt posi in the car. Plan is to sell those to interested restoration folks and go with a currie Ford rear and a Viper 6 speed with some extra $$ added in.

Just thinking out loud here. Was this 550 HP accomplished on a mustang dyno or a dyno jet dyno? Mustang dyno numbers are always higher on a mustang dyno than a dyno jet dyno. You really want to beat this guy? I mean destroy him? Here's what you build, 6.0 ltr iron block bored .030 over, Callies 4" forged crank, Crower 6.125 forged rods, Diamond N20 4.030 forged pistons, Comp cams 244/248 .612/.615 114+4 LSA, GMPP EFI carb style intake manifold, Accu Fab T/B, Compucar N20 plate, ARP fastners top to bottom, front to back, Weldon 2345 fuel system, BSIII, Red Alert EGT System, Neil Chance 4500 RPM bolt together N20 converter, Carl Rossler Terminater IV P/G, custom built ford 9" narrowed 3" on both sides, 3:90 gears, AFCO coil overs with Strange drag racing drop spindles and brakes in front, Strange short rear drag springs with AFCO rear drag shocks, Strange rear drag brakes, Wolfe Race Craft adjustable PHR, adjustable sway bar, thru the floor sub frames, 2 way adjustable LCA's and 10 point cage. Makes 500 RWHP on motor and 750 RWHP on the hose. Car runs low/mid 9's all day long. Would be amazing in a 1st gen.http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9286/84042350dsc01541fx6.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=84042350dsc01541fx6.jpg)

"Oooo! Oooo!

As "Tootie" would say to "Muldoon"!!

Francis, you need to watch this car go!!

That said........ Again!

I figure that I can home brew an aftermarket standard deck height BB block and come up w/ a 588" jobber that WON'T be a race motor, but it w/ still be one heck of a strong street motor!!

For like not all that much more than the difference in the cost of a Dart or a Merlin II/III block and some cheap 350 to 360 out of the box cast-iron heads that the guys are saying don't flow all that well, but will be big.

Say, about like 10 to 1 CR. and just a big solid lifter cam is all.....

I figure right at 700hp w/ not much of anything out of the ordinary when compared to a stock BB..

It WON'T be a RACE motor, BUT rather one big street motor that will go!

pdq67

Ok for me beating a small block with a big block is like winning an ass kicking contest against a one legged man....
here is what my plan is right now.
Using the Gen1 010 4 bolt block that is in my car that is 030. run kit
3nce56-B13004E Eagle Stroker kit. 5.7 rods give me 9.7 to 1. Cost is aprox 1500.00 with machine work for rod clearance. Another 200-300 for balance
Use a set of Brodix 64 cc heads that I have my eye on. Guy wants 700 used trying to get them for 600.
1000 for cam lifters and rockersand 3000 for a procharger.

Thoughs appreciated.

Ok for me beating a small block with a big block is like winning an ass kicking contest against a one legged man....
here is what my plan is right now.
Using the Gen1 010 4 bolt block that is in my car that is 030. run kit
3nce56-B13004E Eagle Stroker kit. 5.7 rods give me 9.7 to 1. Cost is aprox 1500.00 with machine work for rod clearance. Another 200-300 for balance
Use a set of Brodix 64 cc heads that I have my eye on. Guy wants 700 used trying to get them for 600.
1000 for cam lifters and rockersand 3000 for a procharger.

Thoughs appreciated.


Better factor more than 3K for a procharger......

Gonna need a GOOD fuel system
MSD BTM timing box
blow thru carb
bonnet
dyno tuning

Hi I hava a childhood friend that I have lovingly been competing with forever. We have had many many car battles. We he recently purchaced a 2003 mustang Corba. With a bit of tweaking a blower change and a dyno tune he is making 550 RWHP. I drove this car all I can say is WOW.
So my new mission is to build a drivetrian that will mike this kind of power.
I want it to run on pump gas and be a small block. I was thinking of a blown ls7 but that is around 15 Grand. I would actually like to do this old school. Maybe an aftermarket Little M block FAST EFI and a blower. Any thoughts appreciated . This is going to be part of my winter overhaul.

So...is this just going to be a chassis dyno challenge or a real race?
Chassis dyno challenge has import tuner written all over it. Big deal!

Which car is faster given the same or reasonably equivelant hp at the wheels?

Here is a clue.....it will be the one who can best utilize the hp.

Going to the track? His is a stick...right? Build a stout auto trans SB with nitrous, get the suspension working good, and wail on him. You won't need 550 WHP.

Here is another clue....my car makes 700 at the crank....on the engine dyno. Probably makes 570 or so at the wheels. It's a street car! Set up for the strip. Runs high nines....on pump gas. Aint got no blower, no spray, and my guess is that it would flat embarrass your friends Moostang. BTW...it's not a small block.

Hope you get the drift here.

You can have all the WHP in the world, but if you can't apply it.......

Just curious where you get a LS2/3 for $5650 Chicayne . . . not doubting, just thinkin' ;)

LS2 crate engines go for $5600 all day, every day at Scoggins-Dickey.