Anyone doing this to in their hi compression engine to overcome detonation or just to gain the octane to be able to run pump gas?

I use it in every forced induction pump gas deal I do, but have not used it in a naturally aspirated setup. Works fantastic with blowers, turbos, etc.

Jody

I did it in an NA car back in the early 80's. It worked.

How would I do this for my naturally aspirated motor? I have high compression and can't run pump gas. I remember hearing that they did this in recip aircraft back in the day.

I used a system from edelbrock. It had a varialbe, adjustable output, and was triggered by vacuum level. Unfortunately, they don't make it anymore.

How would I do this for my naturally aspirated motor? I have high compression and can't run pump gas. I remember hearing that they did this in recip aircraft back in the day.

Yes, they did - the system was triggered when the throttle was pushed through the safety wire into WEP (War Emergency Power) on R-2800's and Rolls Merlins; crew chiefs weren't real happy with it, as it meant an engine change when the aircraft returned to base. :thumbsup:

I've used these systems a couple times on turbo and blown applications; they also have a couple n/a systems for exactly what you're looking for.


http://www.snowperformance.net/product.php?pk=7

How would I do this for my naturally aspirated motor? I have high compression and can't run pump gas. I remember hearing that they did this in recip aircraft back in the day.

Yes, they did - the system was triggered when the throttle was pushed through the safety wire into WEP (War Emergency Power) on R-2800's and Rolls Merlins; crew chiefs weren't real happy with it, as it meant an engine change when the aircraft returned to base. :thumbsup:

Wow, John, outstanding answer. This is very true. I have thought alot about this and cant see why it would take actual 'pressure' to make this work. Why wouldnt just merely getting a ratio figured out and add it to the tank. 2-stroke oil in the tank of a dirtbike is the reason I say this. My old dirtbike was HI-cr and didnt need H2O/Methanol injection. Why wouldnt a ration work? Same concept, right? Being that I have never dealt with this before is why this may sound dum to the experts.

Yes, they did - the system was triggered when the throttle was pushed through the safety wire into WEP (War Emergency Power) on R-2800's and Rolls Merlins; crew chiefs weren't real happy with it, as it meant an engine change when the aircraft returned to base. :thumbsup:
Didn't that trip the nitrous?

Why wouldnt just merely getting a ratio figured out and add it to the tank. 2-stroke oil in the tank of a dirtbike is the reason I say this. My old dirtbike was HI-cr and didnt need H2O/Methanol injection. Why wouldnt a ration work? Same concept, right? Being that I have never dealt with this before is why this may sound dum to the experts.
Water or meth injection works by slowing the burn, reducing the temp so detonation doesn't happen.

You can't put it in the fuel, water doesn't mix with gas.
The meth would, but I think you get a heck of a charge cooling effect injecting it into the airstream under pressure.

water is a much better heat absorber than alcohol, but alcohol also gives a bit of an octane boost and extra fueling if needed. They will both lower the air temps, but do their biggest benefit in the combustion chamber by absorbing excess heat and preventing detonation.

Jody

I have a http://www.snowperformance.net/ kit for my 12:1 n/a 454, but I am yet to use it.
The Snow kit works off manifold vacuum and can be set to trigger at whatever in/Hg vacuum setting you want.

Aparently the newer kits from Snow are now progressively controlled, meaning they will discharge more water as vacuum decreases to atmospheric.

Plain water is good for up to about 12-12.5:1. Adding methanol (50%) will result in a small power increase, but may require slight richening to use the additional oxygen in the methanol.

Have a look at Snow's forum. They have some good tech guys there to answer your questions.:thumbsup:

running 11:1 on 93 octane pump premium and full advance. No problem.

It also helps remove a bit of the carbon buildup on top of the piston , It also seemed to keep the crud on the backside of the intake valves down a bit .
Mark.

running 11:1 on 93 octane pump premium and full advance. No problem.

you are so lucky you have 93 octane to buy; the 91 octane we have is worlds different than your 93 as far as detonation suppression.

Jody

We can get 94 here in canada at Chevron but it's pricey . I have a tank at home and mix 100 low lead aviation with premium seems to work out great . The fuel injection also helps .
Mark.

Buck...what's going on in your garage? Methanol ice cream fetcher!:hurray::cool:

Didn't that trip the nitrous?

Nope - allied aircraft didn't use nitrous, but the Germans used it (on an emergency-only basis) in the ME-109 (Daimler-Benz inverted V-12 with fuel injection) and the FW-190 (BMW 14-cylinder radial).

:beers:

I was talking to a fellow car guy at work. He has a 383 that he thought was about 11:1 compression. He is having a problem with detonation even with the premuim gas around here. He was going to replace the heads to lower thew compression, but the shop he went to talked him into the Water/Methanol Injection kit. I believe it is from Snow Performance. His biggest worry was trying to find a place to mount the tank for it. It is in his Corvette. He was saying some people have used their windshield wiper fluid tanks??? I believe his has TBI, but was wonder how many TCers have done this on NA cars...

This just got me thinking... what if... you know... :yes::noway::yes:
Buck...what's going on in your garage? Methanol ice cream fetcher!:hurray::cool:
You know I get in trouble if I start thinking... ;)

Depending on the year of vette... the only "TBI"s would be 82 and 84 crossfire cars...
C4's (84up) have a TON of room in front of the front tires.
C3's are tight underhood.
With both, there's always the storage compartment behind the seats.

Read this for some good reading on water/fuel!!

http://www.rbbi.com/folders/fuel/a-21.htm

As for the old Mustang and Merlin piston engine fighters, I think they burned "Triptane" if not mistaken!!

I wish we could buy "Triptane" nowadays for our old high-compressioned engine cars, but we can't!! And I know that it really isn't the wonder fuel of old, but still, I figure better than Iso-Octane!!

pdq67

Nope - allied aircraft didn't use nitrous, but the Germans used it (on an emergency-only basis) in the ME-109 (Daimler-Benz inverted V-12 with fuel injection) and the FW-190 (BMW 14-cylinder radial).

:beers:
Do you know if they used a spraybar? Those old fighters are so cool!!

I love the sound of a radial engine.

Plain water is good for up to about 12-12.5:1. Adding methanol (50%) will result in a small power increase, but may require slight richening to use the additional oxygen in the methanol.

Have a look at Snow's forum. They have some good tech guys there to answer your questions.:thumbsup:

I'll be looking at the snow forum as soon as I sign off from TC.
So if methanol adds power, would that be a better choice than water? And if so, where do you go buy methanol?

Methanol is just Wood Alcohol.

Paint supply store.

pdq67

Methanol is methanol. It's not ethanol or any other simple alcohol.

Methanol may work on it's own but it is highly corrosive.

Water is a lot cheaper and it will do the job.

Methanol is added to the water for a bit of octane boost, but better yet, to keep it from freezing in winter! IF you have to contend w/ that crap like we do here in the mid west!!

pdq67

Nope - allied aircraft didn't use nitrous, but the Germans used it (on an emergency-only basis) in the ME-109 (Daimler-Benz inverted V-12 with fuel injection) and the FW-190 (BMW 14-cylinder radial).

:beers:


That must have been a huge bottle!!

I wonder if the British used that sort of thing. I heard that the Typhoon fighters were up around 1900 hp by wars end.

I was hearing about a 50/50 mix...
Methanol is added to the water for a bit of octane boost, but better yet, to keep it from freezing in winter! IF you have to contend w/ that crap like we do here in the mid west!!

pdq67

I have used winshield washer fluid in the past it works great , and we get a ton of it really cheap all winter i just stock up .
Mark.

That must have been a huge bottle!!

I wonder if the British used that sort of thing. I heard that the Typhoon fighters were up around 1900 hp by wars end.

The Typhoon was powered by a 24-cylinder Napier Sabre engine, which was two liquid-cooled flat-12's on top of each other; although they made about 2200hp by the end of the war, the engine was a reliabililty nightmare - they caught fire frequently on starting, and needed an overhaul every 25 flight hours. No water injection.

The later Fury and Sea Fury used the Bristol Centaurus 18-cylinder sleeve-valve radial engine (2550hp), and were far more reliable. The Centaurus was equipped with water injection.

:beers:

Have you seen those Reno Air Races?
Old war birds souped up for racing. I hear they use the spray and water injection the whole 9 yards!!