I have seen POR15 mentioned so many times on forums like it was the cure for the common cold. I come from a back ground in auto paint that laughs at such products. It is also the largest by far percentage of market. This would be the auto refinishing and OEM finish industry. The biggies like PPG, DuPont, Sherwin Williams, Sikkins, all have recommendations and products for repairing rust. I can assure you that NONE of these recommendations include a product that tells you to simply cover the rust like POR and the others. So, with my experience in the technologies used (limited, understand, I am NOT a paint chemist) and an understanding of WHY these companies would make these recommendations I can't for the life of me understand how POR and the others can make the claims they do.

I ask the question why wouldn't these "big boys" make a similar product? They have the resources to buy and sell these "little people" who make some of the rust products with the money they spend on coffee cups in their board rooms. Why wouldn't they make a similar product?

Well, I can agree that they may not because they don't want a part of that market. This is possible, they will drop products simply because they don't make "enough" money on them. So with that in mind, maybe the restoration market isn't big enough for them to want a piece of. The risk of offering a product that they would have to stand behind is too large for the small profit available.

Well, I am not one to simply read the label or sales pitch and believe it. So, I am going to take all of you believers up on your challange to put up or shut up. I have already gotten some POR, Picklex, Zero Rust, and I have some others coming. I am going to prepair a sample of each, following the directions to the letter. These samples will be put on the coast of Califorina about 100 yards from the ocean. It should be no time before we find out just how good these products are.

Secondly, I have began collecting the MSDS on them and studieing the chemical makeup to REALLY understand what they do and why. I can tell you that so far..I have found that they toss a lot of words around like "dielectric ability" (which simply means it doesn't conduct electricity, somthing I would think all paints can claim) and "Chemical affinity" (which means "a relation of biological groups involving resemblance in structural plan and indicating a community of origin" the word is mostly used in relation to marriage and personal relationships). So far with my limited research they have told me nothing about what they do other than what is in the sales claims.

Of course some things they claim like "converts rust" is what ALL etch primers or metal conditioners that contain acid do.

So, I am began this little project for a few reasons. First of all I want to know personally if these products do what they say. If they do, I would like to use them from time to time when I don't want to clean the metal properly. I would like to be able to tell all of you who want to rely on them if you really can. I want them to do as they claim, I really do. So this will not be a tainted test. I will do everything in my power to make them work.

If you have any ideas for my project please give them to me or forever hold your peace. http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

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1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
1948 Chevy pickup, chopped and sectioned.

"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

It's about time Martin.

Martin, your the man! Yeah, it would be nice to know, that stuff isn't cheap.
They claim it stops rust, instantly. If it isn't what they claim, that'd be false advertising wouldn't it?
The 64 dollar question I have is, How long will it take for test results? LOL Could take years, no?
The ocean is a good idea.

How long will this experiment take? I need to pait my sub-frame and suspension parts. POR is on order. Are you going to test the Eastwood product Rust Encapsulator? I also considered this product. How are you going to measure the performance of the different products? Are there standard test that you might be able to benchmark against traditional systems or will you produce controls to represent the established methods? I am new to all this and have not put a drop of paint on any part of a car. Most of my education has come from you and others on this site. Thanks.

I'm thinking my killer is the mountain dew and rains at night not to mention the daily on and off mountain showers that hit here extra compaired to the sea side. Of course there is always that ocean salt left on surfaces even if you don't park by the water. So the temperature changes extremes and availabilities of moisture getting to the items would be needed. I'm not sure if right off the bat hitting the products with transmission fluid would be nice but maybe to small test items like a rod. The paint over colors or any optional colors would be a concideration for easy temperature extremes going with a dark color. Maybe somebody around an Arizona sand storm prone place would like a few samples to watch for degrading. I think the sherwinn williams guys would set their painted test panels up for maximum sunlight exposure having one side facing the center of the general arc of the sun. One little ideas is to use thin metal that would flex in the wind a little bit. Weld a piece of rod to the backside and use the bar to anchor the piece into an old rubber bushing. Hit the bushing with oil and or transmission fluid for jokes maybe. Anyway the weld how ever ugly you'ld like would be good for semi testing products ability to take care of corners and crevices good cleaning wasn't possible in. Who knows. Welds are notorious for loving to suck in rust and restoration is hopefully including repairs with welds not filler. Have fun.
Jim

Martinsr-
Great idea..but I think for a fair test, you would need a facility or help in the area of an "accelerated" testing set-up. Do you have any contacts at SW or anywhere else that has the capabilities to test the samples under these conditions?
I have heard that no paint or coating test is valid unless it lasts at least 6-8 months under varying conditions. Probably not possible at the coast. Of course, you may not be looking into that deeply..great job, and great idea nonetheless.

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69 Z/28 X-33 Car, Hugger Orange, Endura Bumper, matching #'s..undergoing resto.
79 Trans-Am 400 4 Speed, 26,000 miles, all original-in storage.
02 Chevy Z71 Ext Cab-daily driver.
02 Custom H-D Rigid, 5" stretch, 124 CID, 145 HP, 250 rear tire, appearing in VQ in May 2003.
03 Black w/ Mod Red Interior Corvette Z06..on ORDER.

A great idea. I too am doubtful about claims. My unscientific experience is that my subframe, etc have lasted years. While I don't believe the 'convert rust' claims, I'm interested in the ability to totally seal and stop the chemical rust process. The spec sheets on the various POR-15 products have some test results.

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Rick Dorion
69 RS Conv,355,Autogear M22,4.10's and I don't worry about stone chips ( yet ).

Martin, I think that your test is a great idea! Seeing how I was so vocal on the other thread, I will "put up" as you suggest. The following quotes are taken directly from the 2001 por restoration products catalog (on the back page) "Unless rust is chemically treated...it will continue to spread. POR-15...creates a hard black finish that stops further corrosion" -Hot Rod Magazine June 1996

"It's called POR-15, and it's the slickest concoction we've seen in some time...we couldn't get it to flake,peel, or crack, no matter how much we mangled it." - Car Craft Magazine April 1998

From page 19 (of same catalog)
Author=Jeff Smith of Chevy Hi Performance Magazine July 1999:"The bottom line is that once it's applied correctly, POR-15 is like concrete. Unlike paints or other low budget coatings, this stuff will prevent rust from coming back." quote #2 (same article & Author) "The beauty of Por-15 is that once the rusted metal is properly treated, you can forget about rust ever appearing there again." quote#3 "Our only regret is that we hadn't tried this stuff sooner"

Quote #4 (from same Por catalog pg#15):
I decided to use my wheels to test various rustproofing products I had acquired. After a quick wire brushing to remove loose rust, I sprayed each wheel with a different product, then covered them all with stainless steel wheel paint. Three years later all the wheels had rust pinholes showing through the finish, except the one treated with Por-15. Keep in mind also that hardened por-15 is impervious to just about anything short of an atom bomb." (Written by Classic Auto Restorer) Feb. 1994.

I think it's a great idea for you to run this test Martin. Then you're going to see what you have been missing out on all this time. My local Por dealer has become a good friend to me. He told me that one of his customers runs a large crabbing operation out of Alaska. This guy started coating all of his traps with por 15 a few years back. These traps get immersed in salt water, banged around on the boats and they hold up great.
I believe in the Por products so much, I am going to call, email, and write them until they visit this board! Then if people have questions, they can hear it from the proverbial "horses mouth" and not Martin in Cal. and not Dan B in Wash.
I will leave you with this: A man who claims to have little or no experience with a product, setting off on a mission to discredit the very same product which magazines have independently tested and which has been in business for more than a few years now with tens of thousands of satisfied customers, is about to find out just how great Por-15 really is!

Dan B
"Satisfied Por-15 consumer"

I did a little reading on the POR as far as the MSDS sheets and on a health level (which most paints are rated 1 to 4, 1 being the least threat to health 4 being the worst) the POR comes in at a 3 most epoxy primers come in at a 2. So please keep this in mind when using this paint as far as breathing protection, if you plan on spraying POR, even outside, use the recommended breathing protection.

I have had great success brushing it on over sandblasted surfaces even an air chisel couldn't take it off.

I too would like to see some side by side tests, as good as you can approximate given the non ASTM methods, since its not a scientific test but a field test. While some parameters might not suit everyone, in general what you propose would be applications that us 'everyday' folks can read about and make decisions from.
I saw a test of spray rust preventatives once, they used standard steel files set in a wood block and set outside with various products applied equally to each. It was very interesting to see the results which was also a non ASTM method but it was ground level type stuff we can all relate too.
Good luck Martin, I trust you to be fair and equitable in your procedures.


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....Jim aka Click
69RS 350/255 LM1, Balanced, TRW forged pistons, .30 over, TH-350 auto.,
Dover White, Blue Vinyl top, F&R spoilers, close ratio ps, am/fm, 3.08 Posi.
A/C, fold down rear seat, Pwr Disk Brakes, Cowl Induction, Endura Bumper
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS (http://www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS)

Dan, honestly, I could give a rats butt about what the boys at POR have to say about THEIR product! I was a paint rep remember. http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

Other than of course if they can tell me chemically what it does that other products do not. I have to say, at this point I have not heard a decent expaination. It is like I say they throw a bunch of big words around. In fact, when pushed for an expaination I got NO return email. hmmmmmmmmmm

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1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
1948 Chevy pickup, chopped and sectioned.

"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Martin,
You say you don't give a ratts butt about Por 15. You have also stated that you have little or no experience with their products. And then you turn around and say you want to run a comparison between the various "rust-kill" products. As for what I quoted from the Por catalog, These are not my words, they are not Por-15's words, they are excerpts taken verbatim from other automobile resto and hi-performance magazines which were used in the Por catalog.
Seldom do I go to great lengths to prove my point, but when you told john67 in his post that your method of dealing with rust is the best and that no other paint system comes close...And to top it off, you don't even know if Por paint works or not because you've never tried it. I promised I would bug Restomotive co. until they respond. And I now reiterate that I will continue to bother them until they respond. Martin, If you never use Por paint...I could care less. If you hate por products...great!
But what if you're dead wrong? What if Por seals in rust by leaving a thin coating of Z02 (zinc oxide). Does your urethane paint, primer, or sandblasting leave a rust inhibitant inside? The answer is no Martin. It never has and never will! John67 is probably going to go with Por 15. If he needs any questions answered, I would be more than willing to help him so that the rust in his car is sealed in and won't spread any further. Like the other guy posted, he said he couldn't break it off with an air chisel! Do you think he was just saying that for fun? No, he said it because he has first hand experience with it! My intent is not to make you mad, Just be careful about slamming products you know little about. Then I will quit leaving these long, drawn out posts.

Martin, Testing Por-15 a good idea, I have used several rust stopper products at work over the years, rustolium rust arestor, two-part epoxy, certified lab products, and even Belzona, (refuted to be the best). Last month I pulled the end bell off of one of my chillers, and noticed that some of the epoxy paint had come off on the bell, so I recoated just the rusty part with Por. I will remove this end bell next year for maintence and after one year completely imersed in cooling tower water, I'll let you know how it turns out. I have used it around the plant in the last 6 months and have been very inpressed, we are located 3 blks from the SF Bay, and in the cooling tower area it stays wet there almost all the time. so far Por looks brand new....Good luck with your test. I'm curious also... http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif Mike

Boy, I never thought offering to do a test would generate so much controversy!

I think your idea for testing is great Martin.

And as you said, you are hoping it will work, not trying to discredit it. We all want real world results.

just my .02

Thanks, joe

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69 Rat-Infested Resti-Clone
WCA Member
Badboatdude@CS.com
69 Pics http://hobbystage.net/camaro/joeg/

Yes, another test with feedback will help all of us. Although I have used the POR15 quite a bit, I reserve it's use for rusty areas or those where I want some impact protection ( subframe, suspension, rear frame rails, underneath floor). On the last item, I have found that even following all the steps, the adhesion of POR15 on new metal isn't as good. The metal prep doesn't give it enough 'tooth' as a rusted surface does ( no surprise there ) and it can peel when dug in to. I like to spray the Corroless into cavities and it, too, has held up well over the years.

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Rick Dorion
69 RS Conv,355,Autogear M22,4.10's and I don't worry about stone chips ( yet ).

hey dan, martin forgot more yesterday about painting than you know, all he is doing is testing, why are you so wound up!!! also why hasn't sikkens ,dupont. spies/hecker, standox come up with anything???? oh ya why do you think CHP/car craft/etc love POR???????????Cause they get the crap for free and probaly whenever they want it they get it for FREE!!!! to do just what they did with it, use it, then write about how amazing the stuff is and how they would reccomend it to anyone!! well i would like to see who really liked it and who was given the stuff to like it!!!!
Martinsr will get the results!!
Jake

[This message has been edited by BBCamaro (edited 12-30-2002).]

Martin, what about Len Stuart's test a while back between POR-15 and Picklex-20 & Zero-Rust? He did the test on those motor mounts on that fishing boat. The pics were very dramatic that POR-15 did not hold up. I can't seem to find that link anymore on his site.

What are your thoughts on that test? Reading that sold me on the Picklex/Zero-Rust combination. I bought the Picklex (have not used it yet, cold here http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif).

And I just found a local store that sold the Martin Seynour(sp?) paint line http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif I had been looking for a while for someplace close after I moved. They only have the non-iso paints like I wanted, so I don't have to get the hobby-air!

I just have to get my paint area fixed up.

"You gotta make the tools, to make the shop, to make bigger tools, to fix the parts that fix the car!" http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

It's a very frustrating sometimes.

Kevin

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69' SS-350 Convert, M20, 3.55 posi. Totally Disassembled & in boxes (I'm working on it!) (http://www.fototime.com/0A0DC8E11C07E95/standard.jpg)
69'(Hugger Orange -originally, Burgundy now) Z-21 Convert 327/PG, 3.55 posi too! Driver (http://www.fototime.com/BD198A2E7BF669A/standard.jpg)

I have no doubt Martin is the expert on paint and body, but I also have first hand experience with POR15 and POR20, and I've only had great results with it. I was very skeptical about the product before I used it, but now I think it's the next best thing since sliced bread. I'll be interested in seeing the test results, and will compare them with an open mind, everyone else should do the same thing........KZ

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John D. Smith
69 SS/396 CLONE!

<A HREF="http://hobbystage.net/camaro/69ss396" TARGET=_blank>Hobbystage Texas Tornado Website

</A>

North Texas Camaro Club (http://www.northtxcamaros.com)

Well, I'm certainly not going to get into any arguments here, but wanted to throw my 2 cents in based on both experience and from what I know from reading stuff elsewhere.

First off, MartinSr, I think it's great that you are actually doing some real-world testing, but it sounds like you have already made up your mind about it and have something against these products already?! Over the years I have read many-a-post by you and have many saved to help me with my projects in the next year or two, but your attitude on this seems totally different and not so friendly. I think what you would/will find out of you ever get an answer is that POR15 and other compareable products are not really paint by traditional standards, but actually a produt that in final form resembles a plactic coating more than anything. You will read that it is a 'closed-cell' paint meaning that nothing will penetrate it once hardened and that is not a characteristic of a 'real' paint. When you talk about why the big companies don't get into these products, I think the answers are the sum of many things, some being the danger of these products to your health, the exact preparation required, and the fact that these are made to fix/cover up problems. Paint manufacturers make painting 'systems' that are designed to prevent these problems from occuring, not patch them once they do occur.

Next, I have used the POR15 product quite a bit over the last 5 years, so I can give some insite to the results. Proper Preparation is a must... followed to the letter. POR does not like to stick to bare, smooth metal no matter how much you prep it. The best surface I have found it a sandblasted surface that has been allowed to surface rust. Then use the metal prep, wash thouroughly and let dry before painting. I can also tell you from experience that chemicals will cause POR to let IF they find a way to get under the POR! This could be via an edge in the paint, a scratch, or by not properly cleaning. The brake fluid I spilled on the frame rail peeled the POR off just like regular paint since I had left the inside of the frame alone and the brake fluid found an edge! So much for miracle cures! But then, I didn't really have a rust problem to begin with, so probably should have just used a good chassis paint and sealer.

Finally, I think that if you do the test properly and leave no edges, prep properly, and subject each to the same elements, you will be waiting a long time! But, one other thing to consider is that regualr POR15 and I'm sure some of the other products are not UV stable and will quickly fade/deteriorate if left in the sun. I am like you and do not believe everything I read, but tried POR15 upon referral from other hobbyists and was impressed enough to continue using it, but realizing after experience that it is not for everything. I hope you have an open mind and good luck with your testing.

Bill C.


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Bill C.
Colorado Springs, CO

68 Camaro... someday!
71 Chevelle SS
70 Nova

Restomotive Inc. update...I spoke to 2 gentlemen this morning. They viewed the postings and then wrote me an e-mail. In a nutshell, they said everything that was posted here already. They also made the comment that the U.S. Navy uses their products as does many fishing/crabbing boat owners in Alaska. They say that when applied to the bilge areas of the ships, they see "dramatic results". Then about how great their products are.(which I already knew)
I was told that MartinSr will be receiving an e-mail from them shortly. I am not mad, wound up, or ticked off, I simply hate to see john67 get a posting that downgrades a product that the guy has never tried before.
Jake-"BBCamaro" How do you know what I do for a living? Maybe I am a scientist by day and Camaro restorer by night. Maybe I know more than you think. I've sprayed a car or two in my days.Here's something for you to think about Jake...When you first log onto this website, look directly in the center of the page. It reads "An excellent place to immerse yourself" - Chevy Hi-performance. Are you going to make an assumption that our fearless moderator paid this magazine to say this about our own website? It's my sincere hope that Martin will give the products a fair shake. I'm sure this whole thing will blow over!
Martin, If you ever make it to Seattle....first few rounds are on me! There see Jake, I'm not so hard to get along with.
Everyone have a super New Years!
Dan B


[This message has been edited by MrDanB (edited 12-30-2002).]

Guys, Guys, come on now lighten up. http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif First off, if you read my opening post I am very open on this. Yes, I start with a bias. HOWEVER, I said that I WANT these products to work and I mean it.

If you read it, you will also understand my background and why I feel like I do. As far as never using it so how can I make an opinion? Well, going back to my background and what I do know (though as I said, I am not a chemist) about the technologies in this industry, I can make an educated guess at the products. A doctor doesn't have to know the insides of that "Medibolic" herb pill they sell claiming that you loose weight while you sleep. They would know by the education they have that there is no such thing as this magic diet pill. I am NOT in anyway saying I am an autobody "Doctor," but even a first year med student would know that there is no such thing as this magic diet pill. Just like I don't have to know what brand of paint you are using when helping with a problem, urethane is urethane, epoxy is epoxy and so on. The technologies of these rust fixers are quite honestly at face value seem to be nothing special. However, as I said, I don't fully understand them. So, that is why am doing the test and the studying. I am not going to read the claims on the label and believe it, I'm sorry. I also understand that I nor my opinion is the end all, my opinion is just that opinion. UNLESS of course my opinion is based on fact. I can pass on facts that I have learned (like from this test) or I can pass on facts that are "generally excepted facts" like urethane primer is 2K. If I post something that is my opinion I say why I support that opinion. Believe it or not, that is fine. If I post generally excepted facts, then I will still explain why. This too, you can believe it or not. The thing is, if you don't understand clearly what is being told to you, you should not make a rock solid opinion. That is where I am at with these products. I have supported my opinion with the facts I have, yes by never using the product. Well, I am ready to learn about them and understand them. I KNOW I will learn something and I know that I will find that some of these products will have something to offer me and some of you. I also have to assume that some of them will offer nothing. But, I will find out what I can, you guys have peaked my curiosity.

Jacket, yes I will have all the different products including some from the standard paint systems I am familiar with. This will include a bare metal standard.

Jim, you are very right, this is "good" field test at best. All different climates would be better. Of course I can move this test bed to other climates. We will see how fast it goes, I just want it to be as fast as possible. Obviously I can't wait for thirty years to see.

Merch120, I could like to have a lab to send it, but don't. I will just do my best.

Rick, something tells me that the "tests" on the POR literature may be a bit biased. The "convert rust" claim is actually the only one that really does happen as far as I know. If the product has a particular acid in it, it will convert iron oxide to ferrous oxide. This by the way happens with a number of products the "big boys" (PPG DuPont , etc.).

Dan, that is pretty harsh. "Set out on discrediting the product," man. I IN NO MEANS WILL DISCREDIT THESE PRODUCTS. I will be honestly testing them. I will report to anyone who wants to listen what I find. If you call that discrediting you must not believe in any testing done in the world. Discrediting would be creating results or simply lying about the results. I will test them (spending hard earned cash I might add) honestly. I wouldn't need to work so hard if I planned on simply lying about the results. As I said, I HOPE it works.

Click, I will try to do the very best field test I can.

Dan, I understand that these magazines have great support for the product. They also advertise the product and are giving the product for free. I have been in many aspects of the industry. One of the things I have learned is that people will say ANYTHING to get free product or to make money. I have also been exposed to the marketing side of the business. When you learn what I have, believe me you learn to question EVERYTHING a company has to say. The marketing dept of these large companies play us like puppets. http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif That is a whole different tread. Have you seen the DuPont calendar for 2001? The one with the custom Cadillac called the "Cadster," well it has Martin Senour (actually Evercoat) polyester primer on it. The calendar says it has DuPont primer of course because they gave the guy the primer for free. He hated the stuff but told them he used it and it was wonderful so he could get the paint from them. I do take this support of theirs for what it is. I would like to ask you something, have you ever read an article in ANY magazine except "Consumer Report" that knocked a product? Think about that for a while. Ok, open up a few magazines. Come on, your a gear head you have piles http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif. Now, lets get to the meat and potatoes. POR has a zinc oxide to coat the metal? That is what I want to hear, a nice intellectual offering on why it works, no emotions, just fact. Well, Dan, yes all the etch primers that Sherwin Williams sells has zinc in it.
Dan, please don't stop leaving those long posts, sometimes they are needed to get an idea across. And by the way Johns post along with yours are the biggest reason I want to find out what all this fuss is about. As for you support of John getting all the information. I truly respect that and as long as we stay on an intellectual level without name calling and all that we will all learn something.

Mike, that is some pretty good testimony. The big thing that I want to see is it next to another product as you have seen. Of course, that is all a moot point if the products were not applied as directed.

Rick, see, that is one of the things I am confused about. You say that it doesn't stick well to new metal but John says it can't come off with an air chisel. I wonder what circumstances create such a different result?

Kevin, Lens test is biased (I am NOT saying he did it on purpose, it just ended up that way). He used the Zero Rust OVER Picklex on one side and the POR as a stand alone product. So the POR failed. I have to believe that if you were to use the POR "Marine clean" and then POR "Metal Ready" before applying the POR-15 it would have to work much better and be a closer comparison with the Zero Rust over the Picklex. Being from what I can see at this point Picklex and the POR "Metal-Ready" are similar phosphoric acid metal conditioners. Again, very similar to many products put out by the big boys for decades. The Picklex is the product that I see to have the most promise. But of course, as I said, there are many similar products on the market. And Kevin, I am a bit worried about your NAPA stores claim to the ISO free paint. As far as I know there is no Martin Senour ISO free top coats. There are some primers, but no top coats. What are the names and "qualities" (enamel. urethane, etc.) of the paint they have? Also what VOC ruling are you under?

Bill, If you have read my posts you may also see that I NEVER made a single comment on these products till just a month or so ago (if may be many months me mind isn't what it used to be) even though I have been visiting here for over a year. I never said anything because I knew nothing about the product. I don't know what you do for a living but if you were told that there was a product on the market that goes against everything you know, wouldn't you doubt it? I finally up and said something. As I said at the start of this post, I plan on TRYING to make these products work. I have no reason what so ever to make it fail. I actually was told by the guy here in town that sells Zero Rust (the guy who I have been buying all my paint from for 20 years) that getting the proper film thickness is very important. This means all over including the edges. Some products with poor surface tension will "fall" off sharp edges leaving poor protection, I plan on working diligently to avoid that. Your point about these products not being "traditional" is true in a sense. They are actually very traditional, there are only a few technologies out there. The thing is they have some little twists that make them different. That is what I want to find out, what makes them different. The UV issue is one I am not sure how to handle. I hate to buy ALL the POR products like "Black cote" but I may. If not I will top coat it with a urethane SS.


Listen guys, I LOVE to be proved wrong. Do you know why? Because if I have been proved wrong it means I have been taught a better way to do something. I truly want to find out how they work. YES I am skeptical, but as a very wize man once said, "How can one be certain without first having doubt".

For all of you that supported my effort, I thank you. To all that challaged me, I thank you too. http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif


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1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
1948 Chevy pickup, chopped and sectioned.

"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

ok, ok dan, lets give it a test and we will see what happens!! also i already know this place is a great site and didn't need to read it in chevy hi-perf, but get real, chevy hi-perf did not have to pay for the por-15 they used, i can garauntee that!! so as like anything they test there is an emphasis on liking it even if they didn't have time to test it or see how it lasts in everyday use!!! but hey, lets see what happens, maybe i will end up using por-15!!!
Jake

Yes, I'm perplexed too on the useage on new metal. Maybe others will chime in. In my case, I had new floors which I treated 2 times with Marine Clean ( with good rinsing in between), then 2 treatments of Metal Ready ( same wash in between). After all this, the floors were a slight golden color, no longer 'new metal' looking. I closely examined the entire area for coverage and re-treated one spot. When I went to reinstall my tranny cross member, there was a slight interference fit where I needed to tap it into place - the normal drill. What happened was that, at that spot, the POR15 peeled away when all I expected was a scuffing. On my subframe it's been extremely well-adhered. I now have a season of driving ( about 2000 miles ) and the underside still looks perfect but I'm puzzled over the peeling. Maybe I should have lightly sanded.

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Rick Dorion
69 RS Conv,355,Autogear M22,4.10's and I don't worry about stone chips ( yet ).

First of all, I applaude you for taking the task of a field test on Martin. The results will be more than a couple years away unfortunetly and I'm not holding my breath. Who are you doing these tests for anyway? Honestly?
It would be nice if someone that has used and likes the products you'll be testing, especially POR, assisted you in their application and subsequent performance tests. I can't see where just painting something and leaving it outdoors tests anything. Not very real-world as in an automobile that gets used and abused would be.

Now, on POR products themselves, everyone agrees that the different POR products are meant for RUSTY metal. Not new, smooth steel even after it's been Marine Cleaned and Metal Readied. There have been several examples right here in the forums where people have stated over and over that when they used it on non-rusted or otherwise clean, smooth metal, it peeled off with little effort. Poor prep in my opinion.

I read everything I could get my hands on before I actually bought some. I couldn't wait to see how it worked but before the first few cans arrived at my house, I already knew not to put it on smooth steel. I don't know if I'd even use it on cleaned metal that's been surface rusted. I wanted to paint my subframe with it no matter what shape it was in and went into it also knowing that a rusty surface that's been sandblasted is also a good surface for POR. Turns out that IS true.

I'll bet that if your floor pans were sandblasted for a rough surface before you Cleaned and Readied them Rick that the POR would have adhered much better. Or if you had at least ran some 60 grit over the entire surface with an orbital sander first. From my extremely limited experience using POR, the surface has to be either rusted or very rough/porous. Metal Ready does not prepare a smooth surface for POR paint. It coats the RUST with zinc to inhibit spreading, leaving the RUSTED surface 'ready' to accept POR paint. Anyone who does not follow the directions of the manufacturer for ANY product deserves what they get.

Bill C. found out something that only after using POR is something I learned also. It's unfortunate that POR will not adhere to a prepared surface better if left as an edge. It does not soak into rust or metal, it covers the surface like a jacket. Oil, brake fluid, water, grease all tend to soak into metal somewhat which makes it easy to get under ANY product wherever there may be an edge.
I can only imagine what would happen to a rusty piece of steel that has been properly prepped for POR then only painted on one side, leaving an edge. I would imagine the POR would lift and seperate from even the properly prepped and rusty area. That's undisputed I'm sure. Maybe I'm wrong.

What we all want is a product like POR that WOULD NOT fail at an edge. I suppose unless we want to spend a thousand dollars preparing a single square foot of rusty surface and using some space-age, high tech and high dollar chemical process reserved for major corporations and scientists that can afford it, we're stuck with Eastwood, Restomotive, etc. rust stopping products.

Let's be honest, this whole thing is pointed at Restomotives POR-15 products. Any other product and their results from Martins test will just be fluff in my opinion. Not a week goes by here at Team Camaro that someone doesn't mention POR in some way, shape or form. And I guarentee that everytime a thread is started that mentions POR-15, you are sitting there in front of your PC Martin and throwing your head back and muttering "Here we go again with that POR garbage!" You say you won't be biased in your test and that you want POR to work. Save yourself a lot of time and money and listen to those that HAVE used it.....

IT WORKS!

One more thing, as I said earlier in the thread, let me see a rock bounce off a normally painted subframe and a POR painted frame. There won't even be so much as a nick in the POR. I know. I made it a point to test Restomotives claims but I didn't use a hammer. Too flat and dull.... I used a screwdriver!

I'm sorry if this sounds like I'm putting my finger in your face Martin. I really am not trying to provoke you AT ALL! I value your expertise and have also printed out your various threads for future use. I also want to thank you for helping me personally outside of the forums. I'm glad you FINALLY had enough of the talk and decided to FINALLY find out for yourself. Personally I was getting tired of you snubbing your nose at these products.

Good luck with the tests Martin. I hope to still be around TC in a few years when the results come in.

Signed,
Believer

I was thinking of replacing the rusty floors in my car but now I think I'll just coat them in POR-15 and wait until they magically regenerate!! http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

Wow Martin, you really stepped in it this time!! It's really hard to change people's opinions once their convinced. You know the old addage: "don't bother me with the facts, I have my own opinion"! After all, people still buy Slick50 and split fire spark plugs!! (let's not get started down that road, eh?)

POR and simillar products are pretty damn good (and I've used 'em all!), but all of us old time, hard core, car techies know that NOTHING works perfectly or lasts forever even with expert preparation.

Don't tell me that I can't put an air hammer or a screwdriver or a stone through the coating!! That's just pure BS!! I'm pretty sure that POR-15 isn't made out of diamond, and a litle bit of it is gonna chip! It doesn't come off in sheets like Rustoleum would but it's not guaranteed by God!

Ya wanna know how to keep that resto perfect forever? Garage it!! And don't drive it around in New England winters!!!

I think it's important for the individual restorer to find what they believe works best for them and stick with it.

Gentleman, I too am a POR supporter... I was turned onto the product by BC about a year ago. I have learned how to work with the product by making several mistakes like many others. I have found that like many other paint products that you cannot apply it to bare metal and expect it to stay put. Although the "Metal Ready" does promote adheasion it doesn't always penetrate enough to provide surface adheasion. I've tried to use etching primer as a base for POR and found that it didn't work at all. I've found that if you sandblast then use the "Metal Ready" that you would have to work pretty hard to remove it at that point. After applying in the last desribed fashion, I've literally beat on the coated part several times with a ball peen hammer with serious blows and not had it come off but by the same token, where I prepped it with etching primer it comes off real easy. I guess the point that I'm trying to make is that like any other product theres a right and wrong way to apply it. No POR is not an end all and is limited in it's use. Yes it works like they claim if you apply it properly as anything else you might use. And is fairly inexpensive all things considered.


Just my .02

Regards,
Tom

Well, Here's the punchline....I'm the northwest Distributor for Por-15 (Just Kidding) Now that the dust is finally settling...Martin, I think you're a real gentleman for admitting that there could be two sides to this coin. Many people could learn from your example. After going back and reading some of your older posts, I see that you do have a wealth of knowledge in the painting arena! Thanks for the "lively Debate"...

Mr.Dan B

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WHAT'S THE BACK OF A MUSTANG LOOK LIKE?

Well, Here's the punchline....I'm the northwest Distributor for Por-15 (Just Kidding) Now that the dust is finally settling...Martin, I think you're a real gentleman for admitting that there could be two sides to this coin. Many people could learn from your example. After going back and reading some of your older posts, I see that you do have a wealth of knowledge in the painting arena! Thanks for the "lively Debate"...

Mr.Dan B

------------------
WHAT'S THE BACK OF A MUSTANG LOOK LIKE?

Just a thought about the marketing stuff.

Let's say you're a rep for the all-wonderful, awesome "Tornado." You give me, an editor, this product for free. It's a piece of worthless garbage. You could give me a hundred Tornados but what good would that do me? Where's the incentive to write a good review?

I'm by no means an expert on marketing. Just seemed like common sense. Maybe I'm missing something.

Chad

P.S. Just wanted to say that it's really cool to see you guys have a debate without it degenerating into name calling. Personal attacks and insults are pretty common things on alot of boards. Makes me glad I'm a member here. Happy New Year guys and God bless.

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67 Firebird...special Super Rust Edition
01 (POS) Ranger.

"IT TASTES LIKE BURNING!" -Ralph Wiggam.

You skipped the most important step!! Here's the check for the advertising spot, here's the free sample and then the review is written.

I have used por-15 to the letter and I was able to scratch it with a screwdriver without alot of pressure. I only have one thick coat. But I talked to the rep at the annual swap meet and he said 2 or more coats are needed. What I've seen by using this stuff is that metal needs to be very free of rust before you apply it. Alot of prep work. The instructions said to get the flaky rust off. But more is needed.

Joe, that is one HUGE issue to me. I have the POR and I have been so busy with a number of family issues and the holidays and such I havn't even opened the can. Anyway, that adhesion issue is something I really want to test and understand why it doesn't like smooth surfaces. An etch primer would bite like a mad man so if it is useless on smooth surfaces it has one large strike against it.

HwystarJoe, come on here, do I have to break down and cry about my exwife taking my kids to another state and open my heart about my tax problems and how my father treated me as a kid for you to believe me? I have told you why I am doing it. I am curious AND I want to be able to give advice about the products. If I can say, "man oh man POR is for you, this is how you us it..........." I WILL. If I find it is not what it is advertised or anything in between I will explain that. I really don't understand what makes this any different than any of my "Basics of Basics" I post on door skin installing, paint atomization of any of the other things. How do you think I learned these other topics to post about them? I either studied the subject or learned on my own. With that information learned in study I put it to play in the shop and I am able to pass it on. This is NO different what so ever. I mean, come on here. If I were to say that this new Chicago Phumatic 3" Orbital sander is one of the best tools I have ever used. Should I get flack? How about if I said it was a piece of garbage? Every single person that offers some advice on a tool, repro part, procedure, what ever the thread is about is offering it with the information they have learned in some way. I want to learn about POR and the other products. I am not afaid to find out they are the answer to all the troubles of the world, that would be fine with me. I have no allegiance to any competitor of theirs. I really don't care one way or the other. I just want to KNOW, I am a fact kind of guy and I want to KNOW. I don't need someone who knows and likes the products to help me. I can open a can of PPG, DuPont, Kelly Moore house paint, Bisquik pan cake batter, I really don't care. I know products enough to know how to follow directions. AND, let me say that if you can't simply open the can and follow directions, that right there tells me the product is junk. If the average Joe can't simply use the product as they say, then there is something seriously wrong. That is who these products are marketed to right, the average Joe?

Testimonies are fine, however they are not the whole story. The product was not "challanged" it is not put up against other similar products. That is like saying a particular foot ball team is the best when they have never had a game. If I paint something with a rattle can and stick it in my garage it will last forever I assure you. I am not saying that the testimonies here for POR are sitting in a climate controled room, but everyone of them is different. THAT is no test.

As far as the chipping thing, I will find out. In my experiance there are a few reasons that a particular product will resist chipping. They are, extremely good adhesion coupled with a thin film. Or a thick soft film that reists chipping because it "gives" on impact. There are many product that fall into those catagories. Quite honestly the hitting a metal surface with ANYTHING on it with a screw driver is going to damage that surface. If POR does that, I sure would think that GM would have one heck of a selling point on their 2003 models coated in POR. They would make the rest of the auto industry look stupid. Not only that, you would have graffiti proof buses and subway trains. Kids bikes toys would last forever, the list goes on and on. I am not saying you have experianced what you are saying, I am simply saying that something is lost in the translation. I must be missing something big, because I just don't get it.

Guysf, I am not saying you dress funny. I am not saying that your mother is a prostitute http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif I am simply saying that I don't believe the claims these products make. I don't understand the technology that could do the things I have heard it can do. I want to find out for myself. It is kind of like the claim in the catalogs of repro parts "exactly as original". I am sorry but there is NO repro part I have EVER seen that I couldn't tell from original. Now, does that mean they are junk? No, it doesn't but that doesn't mean that EVERYONE would see them as "exactly as original". They may really feel that they are exactly as original and not lying at all. But that is their standard, mine is different. I want to UNDERSTAND these products, not just believe the claims. How do you like this, EVEN if the claims are true. I just realized that as I type this. Lets just say they do everything you guys and the manufactures say they do. That isn't even the point, I STILL want to know how they do it. You see, because at this point I don't know that. And no one, including you guys can tell me that. If I ask a waitress what is in the "House surprise" I want answers, not "it tastes good" http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif



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1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
1948 Chevy pickup, chopped and sectioned.

"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Dan http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif I love a good debate. I can discuss any one of a number of hot botton topics. Abortion, taxes, war, Oj Simpson, gun control, I don't care what it is. If it says on an intelectual level (not that I am an intelectual) and not the emotional brain dead point that some people what to go I havn't a problem with anything. Thank you so much and we will keep this up here and out in the field and see what we come up with. http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

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1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
1948 Chevy pickup, chopped and sectioned.

"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

spongebob, as djd said, you forgot about that advetising check and free product, also what if it is a major manufacturer like(holley or edelbrock) that has a new product that isn't worth much but they give you 10 of them for free to test and renew there full page ad's for another year??????? are you gonna say its junk and you would never buy one??? i highly doubt it, you might not say its the best but you will say it is a good product and reccomend them to people no matter what you found, i don't care, when you are given something, then they also advetise in your magazine you are not going to trash talk there products
Jake

Yes, Hwystarjoe, I hear you. Since I asked the POR15 rep about applications before using, it's not so simple as you state, ie, not following directions and getting what you deserve.

I applaud Martin's evaluation. From all the reading, the stuff has a place in certain situations ( no surprise there ). From all our shared experiences, we'll all benefit. I do, however, feel that the manufacturer, overstates the benefits and doesn't do a good job explaining its limitations.

------------------
Rick Dorion
69 RS Conv,355,Autogear M22,4.10's and I don't worry about stone chips ( yet ).

Rick, I hope you don't think I implied that you didn't follow directions. But the point I made earlier and then again to you was as you just said.... Restomotive doesn't do a great job of explaining POR's use and limitations as well as they probably could, and "accidents happen".
That goes back to what I said before about reading everything I could get my hands on pertaining to real-world experiences with POR products before I ever bought any. I'm fortunate enough to have the resources to investigate something before I shell out coin for it. A lot of Average Joe's do not. I'd already decided not to use POR on my firewall or anywhere else that I feel it doesn't belong just from reading posts here and elsewhere. I took a chance on my subframe and it worked out beautifully.

Martin, Inquiring Minds Want To Know! I hear you. By nature, it's what drives me and I'm happy to say it's what drives my 3 year old too. Life would be sorta boring if we always accepted everything we see, hear, use, or desire and never dug deeper into WHY or HOW. Makes us more interesting people too! http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

POR paint is meant to be applied in 2 or more thin coats. Of course it can be damaged after only one! I will never doubt the strength of this stuff when done properly. It pained me deeply to be holding that screwdriver over one of the frame rails high above my head, thinking about what the outcome would be. I even closed my eyes as I brought the 'axe' down for it's first blow. I didn't want to see all that work flying through the air and landing on the shop floor. I popped one eye open and peeked down at the rail.... I couldn't even see where I hit it! Not that it's totally and absolutely impregnable. A rough cloth or the sleeve of your jacket will leave swirl marks in it, but it won't scratch. I can live with that.

HAPPY 2003!! May there be many more 'lively' discussions in the coming year!



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Joe
WCA Member
1969 Wallet Crusher
- HwyStar@Rochester.rr.com

HwyStar's Garage! (http://www.geocities.com/hwystarjoe/index.html)

Martin, martin, Martin,
Here goes: I bought a 1969 Camaro from older gal in trailer park in Lynnwood,Wa. Car was "unmolested" but VERY rough around the edges! Center of trunk was shot (You could throw a cat straight through it!) I talk to oldest brother who is in his mid fifties for advice. He says: "Por-15 is your only choice since you don't have the experience and I don't have the time to cut out the trunk and weld in a new panel". So, I read and read about Por-15 (and other brands as well) I was very lucky and had a dealer who was willing to come to my house and take the time to show me how to use the stuff CORRECTLY. There is less prep time involved, because it's actually BETTER to have a porous surface for the stuff to stick to. i.e. just getting the "loose" rust off is sufficient, then follow the directions. So after about a weekend of cutting fiberglass and working it into the trunk, I feel confident that the rust in my trunk will not spread, water can splash up underneath the trunk, and it is repelled, and I'm done with it. When I went to put a new vinyl top on...I lightly sanded the whole thing down, prepped it out, and put 2 thin coatings of Por-15 over it. (The General wasn't very generous with their factory primer/paint under vinyl tops and around the tulip panels etc) Anyway, the top came out beautiful, as did the subframe, my exhaust manifolds, water pump, battery tray, etc. Martin, I certainly would not have kept going on all of these projects if the first one had not come out so great!
As for advertising...Ofcourse they do what they can to promote their products. Wouldn't you? If their claims were not true,
don't you think that they would have gone bankrupt by now? Word of mouth advertising is the best advertising by far! The irrefutable FACT is...People who have used the product CORRECTLY, like it. Don't you believe the people who have been posting about their own experience with it? Don't you think that millions of dollars/year in sales is testimony? Don't you wear a respirator when you paint your own vehicles?
(Dangit, I told myself I was going to try and be nicer this year...) Anyway, Martin, If you want to get a free catalog, or some powermesh, I will send you a small amount for free, just for your little experiment. Perhaps, If you take a really rusty piece of thin metal and cut a hole in the middle, then prep and apply some power mesh over it, and finally a top coating (while the 1st coating is just setting up. Sort of "tacky")
then you will see why I am so happy with my trunk. If my car was an ss or rs I would have learned how to replace the metal. But it's not, It's going to wind up being a very quick toy with lots of chrome goodies and something to get some thumbs up at the local cruise in. If I were building a trailer queen, there wouldn't be much por on the car, but I'm not. Just an American Muscle car to squeal some tires and grin ear to ear! Happy '03 To all, especially our moderator- "Mr.Kotter 2" haha.


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WHAT'S THE BACK OF A MUSTANG LOOK LIKE?

Dan, of course I believe the testimonies of you guys, that is one of the reasons I am so curious about it. However, those testimonies don't include a stardard in which to judge the products performance. A McDonalds hamburger can be pretty good, and it will fill your stomach. But if you put it next to a "Vals" hamburger in Castro valley Ca (voted the best burger in Ca a number of times) that McDonalds burger looks pretty shabby. If you would have cleaned up that rust on your roof and shot a vinyl wash primer then a polyester to fill the pits you would maybe have at the very least gotten "as good" results. Now, if you got "as good" results then the POR is not the end all best in the whole world magical product, that is all I am saying. BUT, that doesn't change the fact that I want to know what is different about it.

I have a feeling that there is so much sensitivity about this product because you don't want to find out it could be nothing special. If you find that out, your rust will return http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

Please, Please, lets change the direction of this thread. I understand all the support, I read it here and other forums all the time. Of course I believe these posts, what would be the point for someone to lie about it. I want to understand, that is all. I am getting the feeling that I should have just did it the test and not said anything. The reason I wanted to start this thread was to learn as much as I could about the product to SUCCESSFULLY apply it for the test. The point about allowing it to dry well and applying the three coats for good coverage was what I was after. Yes, I can follow directions, but knowing these little details to ensure that I get the most out of the product and show the product in the best light.

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1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
1948 Chevy pickup, chopped and sectioned.

"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

DJD, Jake,

Yea, I was only thinking about the personal gain aspect of getting free materials. The check is certainly a worthwhile incentive.

They do indirectly pan some products, though. As a for instance, in every dyno article all you hear is the the RPM Air Gap made the most power for the application. Now, there are plenty of big Holley ads in all the mags. As a VERY large company (combined, probably bigger then Edelbrock) why aren't we seeing that either the Weiand or Holley intakes make the best power? Even maybe that they make the best power with a certain combos?

I DO think the writers go easier on a company that advertises. But, they also have to keep in mind that if they continually endorse products that are crap, the readers will quit buying. They ARE aware of that, too. Their biggest check comes from all of us.

I think this is why places like this board are so important to us little guys. We get to hear opinions from all angles and experiences.

Chad

Chad, just so you know, the biggest check comes from advertising, NO comparison. Believe it or not in the print business as a whole the ONLY reason they sell the magazine is to report a "circulation" number to the potential advertisers. That is why they have all those specials you get calls at dinner time about. Heck I get my TV guide every week for about seventy five cents a week. The postage is about 40 cents I'm guessing. That leaves about 35 cents BEFORE paying for the cost of printing!! My newspaper costs me about $15.00 a year. Seven days a week they come and set a newspaper on my door step, they do NOT make money doing that. They LOOSE money doing that in most cases. They want the highest circulation number to show advertisers how many people will see their ads, that is what they are after. Radio and Network TV for instance they get NOTHING from you, they earn every dime from the advertisers. The "ratings" is how they set their ad cost. The Superbowl ad cost is about a million dollars a minute while on that same network at three am in the morning on yoga with Chachie you can get that minute for a few thousand bucks. Marketing a product, no matter what product is simply getting the most exposure for the least dollar. That is why DuPont and Tide pay NASCAR teams millions of dollars to simply put their logo on the car. There is a formula of "exposure value" set on every form of marketing. That is why top fuel dragsters don't get the advertising support of Top Fuel Funny cars, they have less ad space on them. That is why NASCAR gets so much, the camera is pointed at the car for HOURS sometimes. Ok, I can go for ever on that subject, marketing fascinates me. As I said before, they play us like puppets. Can we say "The ULTIMATE driving machine"?

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1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
1948 Chevy pickup, chopped and sectioned.

"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

[This message has been edited by MARTINSR (edited 01-01-2003).]

Chevy, Ford,... Pepsi,Coke .... Levis,Lee ...
Amsoil,Mobil One... the list goes on.
We all have our favorites and nobody is wrong for what they choose to buy.
Martin is doing us all a favor to help us understand more about the area of body and frame treatments. Lets let him do it and report back. No harm, no foul.
I for one like to learn all I can about products that might help me. Lets keep our minds open and see what he comes up with.
http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif


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.... Jim aka Click :)
69RS 350/255 LM1, Balanced, TRW forged pistons, .30 over, TH-350 auto.,
Dover White, Blue Vinyl top, F&R spoilers, close ratio ps, am/fm, 3.08 Posi.
A/C, fold down rear seat, Pwr Disk Brakes, Cowl Induction, Endura Bumper
My RS www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS (http://www.brainerd.net/~knudsen/69RS)

O.K. Martin,
I see where you're coming from now.
My own little test will be another 4-5 years from now. If my vinyl top stays looking great, my floorboards don't rust-bubble through my 7-piece underlayment, and my "new looking" exhaust doesn't start flaking, then I know that I have a fighting chance of promoting Por 15 at that time. (Keep in mind, it's already been over a year, and everything still looks like new) My brothers Dodge Demon has the stuff all over it as well and it's been SEVERAL years. Golly, it still looks like new too. And Martin, if you run this test and you think that the stuff is crap, then I would have to say that you didn't follow the directions. Your validation to like or dislike the product won't change anybody's mind (especially mine)
only your own...Well, maybe your sidekick BBCamaro. If you want detailed info on the chemical reaction and or the scientific reasons that the products work, well then you need to e-mail restomotive. I have already bothered them sufficiently to get them to visit this board and e-mail you.
I offered to help in any way I can-not so much because I care about your test, but so that in the future when a guy asks about Por 15, you won't say "nothing is better than sandblasting, etch primer, urethane paint, etc" Because IMHO, Por 15 IS BETTER for certain applications: Axles, front suspension, exhaust manifolds, and most anything else that is rusty. Use the stuff, run the test, post your results, and let's be done with it! I've said all I can to enlighten you on a product you (self admittedly) had NO experience with. After a bunch of posts, you are saying well, maybe there could be something to this, and after you finally use it, you will be posting whatever YOU think about it. I am glad we had the opportunity to bring this into the open. maybe, if nothing else, people can save their rusty lawn furniture or something...Martin, feel free to e-mail me directly with any questions you may have.

Dan

Joe, no harm meant or implied. I just finished taking care of a flooded basement!

Looking forward to the feedback. This is how we learn - sharing.

BTW - my subframe, too, came out very well.

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Rick Dorion
69 RS Conv,355,Autogear M22,4.10's and I don't worry about stone chips ( yet ).

Dan, do you really mean that POR is "better" than sandblasting, etch primer, epoxy primer and urethane paint or do you really mean that you feel it is an good or great "alternative"?

Please drop the "sidekick" stuff, that is getting close to name calling which is NOT productive.

I have exchanged a few emails with restomotive. At this time I have been told nothing. I hope to get some info in the coming days.

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1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
1948 Chevy pickup, chopped and sectioned.

"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

By the way, don't you guys see that this test may not take that long. If POR and the others do last forever, we don't have to wait that long to see how good it is. Because the standards I will also have there like etch primer and or epoxy primer may fail before the POR or ZeroRust. We only have to wait long enough till one of them fails. That will at least be a start and we will know at least what is the worst way to do it.

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1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
1948 Chevy pickup, chopped and sectioned.

"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

Martin,

For my lack of knowledge, I'll accept that the ad revenue for car magazines excedes the subscription revenue.

Even so, at SOME point circulation will drop if the magazine in question promotes (in their articles) garbage that does not work.

If the whole reason for being is advertising, then circulation has to be the life blood. If one continues to fudge the truth then people who read the magazine will bow out sooner or later. No circulation, no ad money.

I am one of these people. Treat me honestly as a customer or you WILL lose my business permanantly and everyone else that I can convince.

Succesful companies DO know this. When you read between the lines, I've found it's pretty easy to separate the wheat from the chaff. Some things you won't find between the lines. That's when you either pass on something or give it a try...just like you're going to do with the POR.

Chad

Martin, I am indeed saying that in my OPINION, in some instances, Por-15 works for ME better than sandblast, etch prime, urethane paint etc...Here are some specific examples: Someone on a fairly tight budget who has rust in the roof panel. If it is so rusty that sandblasting alone would do further damage to it and leave small holes in it, then Por would work great, If someone had a very rusty trunk, and had little or no experience welding, then powermesh, and Por 15 would do the trick. If someone wanted to treat the subframe, a-arms, axle, or any other porous surface under the vehicle, Por 15 would hold up better then sandblasting, etch priming, and urethane topcoating. I fully admit that you have exponentially more experience than I do when it comes to body work and painting cars. But you have to admit that when you said that you have no experience with Por-15, well, It's like trying to describe what colors look like to a blind person. You can tell him what you think all day long, but until he see's colors, it's a losing battle. Here's an analogy that might help: post-mortem cryogenics. Years ago when I first heard that rich folks were having their own heads decapitated and then frozen in Ln (liquid nitrogen), I thought man these guys are nuts! but not 1 person can say that technology won't be developed some day to reattach their head to a body. I personally still think it's nuts, but it COULD happen.
I mean human cloning is on the horizon right now... Martin, now think about Por-15 as the rich guys head. You have about as much chance of proving Por-15 as being an overrated product as scientists do reattaching that head. (probably not the best analogy, but certainly drives the point home) Anyway, like I've said all along, even if your test comes out horrible, it won't mean that MY Camaro isn't going to hold up in future years as well as I want it to. I won't stop using it, or promoting it. All of the other guys who posted their testimonies believe in it as well. You said that you're sick of hearing about it as being so great. If that's true, then enough people have praised the stuff to make you aware that it's great! right? Now it's your turn to put up or shut up...Run your test so you can see that Por-15 Rules and then say "Uncle"


Dan B

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WHAT'S THE BACK OF A MUSTANG LOOK LIKE?

Have stayed out of this ,but now feel I need to reply. Have to agree 100% with DanB's above post.I too have used Por15 and am very satisfied with the results.Have painted the underside of the 67 from gas tank to firewall with Por15 and it looks just fine.I sense that there are those on here with not much to do. Who cares whether I like Brand X and you like Brand Y or I like Chevy and you like Ford.If you don't like the product use something you do like. Forgot to mention there was no rust under the 67.

[This message has been edited by 67camss/rs (edited 01-01-2003).]

Such unquestioning loyalty......To a CAN OF PAINT! Maybe it's the fumes.

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_________________________
John
'67 SS/RS (RR)
'68 RS conv. (J2)
'68 Z/28 (VV)
'68 Drag Car(ZZ) (in progress)
'73 Corvette Drag Car

dan, i am a bodyman also and i would feel stupid to be driving around a 1st gen with a brushed on por-15 roof, i don't care if it stops the rust, you say you have painted a car or two, i do not know anyone in the restoration business that would use this for a roof,i can see someone using the patch repair stuff for a trunk or floor and they do not have the money for panels and welding, but to use it on the exterior of a car, i don't think so!! just give it a bit, and let it fade and look really crappy while that nice urethane paint job looks brand new after a buff and wax 10 years later not to mention if you ever had to sell your car i would not want to find por 15 patches all over a car i bought, let alone the roof, i guess the sidekick thing got to me!! but anyway trunks yes, floors yes, but no way on a roof, repair it properly don't just cover it with por and say great!!
Jake

"And Martin, if you run this test and you think that the stuff is crap, then I would have to say that you didn't follow the directions. Your validation to like or dislike the product won't change anybody's mind (especially mine)
only your own...Well, maybe your sidekick BBCamaro."

I'm on MARTINSR's side on this Dan...whatever he finds out will be good as gold to me. I have followed his post on several boards across the internet and all he does is help people...in fact he goes way out of his way to help. No one can deny that he knows what he is talking about...just read any of his "basics of basics" and you will see. I too was once where you are now...trying to patch things up and telling myself it would be fine, but I have pregressed beyond that point and am happy to say I have replaced all of the temporary patches on my car. I have learned to mig weld and done some major bodywork on my 69 Z28. I could not or would not have attempted any of this without help from MARTINSR and others like him, many on this board. So you can consider me a MARTINSR sidekick too, he is very objective and whatever he posts will be believed by me and many others...most who have been here longer than 50 posts http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

Gambitt

Jake, My bad...I should have added that the Por went over the sheetmetal and UNDER my new vinyl top.
Gambitt, You said the exact same thing on John67's thread as Martin: "Nothing is as good as sandblast, primer etch, urethane, etc." So, factually speaking: some of us like Por products, some don't. Indeed we are blessed to live in America where we can all be different. Martin just wants the technical data to support the claims that it's great, and to see what's in it, and I just want Martin to give it a whirl. As for me only having 50 posts, it's due to the fact that I had to re-register just a few months back. Well, that and the fact that I don't speak out much on products I haven't tried. If Martinsr is the guru of auto painting on this site, great, then all hail king Martin. I have read some of his older posts, and he certainly sounds like he knows his stuff! (Gambitt, if you ever need solid advice on biomedical diagnostic ultrasound equipment, you just give me a holler.) I think you are right, 50 posts aren't much, unless 49 of them are about por-15... Thanks for the debate guys!

"Biomedical diagnostic ultrasound equipment" Huh, so what do you think about the wave of "Body scan" companies that have popped up all over the country. They tell us that they will save your life. Tell you something is wrong before you even have symptoms. All for a few thousand dollars. There are plenty of testimonies. Yet, EVERY doctor I have heard talk on the subject says that they are a waste of money, a shame. They only create questions instead of giving answers. They push you to more tests, that can be invasive. All working off TINY, MINUSCULE odds that you are going to find something.
What is your opinion on them? I assume you have no direct experience, so you have no opinion right? http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

Dan, you could start an argument in an empty room. Please take the time to read SLOWLY my posts in this thread. Did you even read what I said about what we will learn from my test? We will learn WHICH will fail first. Now, I would think that could be a little bit interesting to you. If you think that I have some agenda, some reason to prove you and the others who use POR that you are wrong or something, you have NOT read enough of my posts. If you really read what I have posted you would have NO reason to continue your attack. I will say it again, POR may be the best product for you and ME for certain things. YOU NOR I know that for sure. YOU know that it has worked wonders for YOU. I am NOT arguing with that, how could I? I simply want to do a REAL head to head test with other products. I would assume you have dragged your car, right? WHY would you do that? Because you want to see how it stacks up against others that's why. I am finished this ridiculous bickering. Post what you want, I've had it.

Now, to those who have any interest in my little study please read on, give me any ideas. I don't want testimonies. I know these products have worked well for you.

Let me also say that some of you have wondered why I am doing this, why I even brought it up. I just couldn't understand this questioning. Well, it hit me today, I would think that most of you don't do tests like this, maybe never have done it. You are using your valuable "garage time" getting your car done, not playing games. With all the support these products have and what the manufactures tell you, you just use the product and get on with life. Well, I have been testing and pushing products to their limits for years. I have always done it. Then I became a paint rep, for five years I had to walk into shops and ask them to buy something. I had to walk into shops and solve problems. I had to create failures just so I would know what to tell the customer to FIX his problem.
I am NOT in ANY way a guy could walk into a shop and tell someone to buy something that I didn't REALLY know was something they needed. I represented THOUSANDS of products. There was rattle cans, paper towel products for the body shop, booth filters, Sharpe Spray guns, sand paper, adhesives, primers/sealers/topcoats/clears (in lacquer, enamel, synthetic enamel, urethane, polyester, ISO free, epoxy, and others) masking products, mixing systems, scales, fillers, protection items like respirators, paint suits, and gloves, curing systems like short wave infrared, and on and on. I had to know every one of these products or I was NOT going to "push" it. I'll be damned if I was going to tell someone something was the cats meow only to get my butt chewed the next time I go in the shop. I did testing that proved my product sucked, I then FORGOT I had it to offer. I even told people who where buying a poor product NOT to. I showed people the product that worked the best regardless of who made it or how much gross profit there was in it. There is NO WAY I could do that without testing HEAD TO HEAD products. I sure as heck wasn't going to believe my marketing dept. They would say anything, I wasn't going to let them get my teeth knocked in.

I tested paints against one and other, either in group settings with other reps at the training center or on my own in my garage or at shops where the owner was OK with me hanging around. One time I spent two full days at the tech center testing all the ATA (adhesives, tape, abrasives) products head to head with 3M (my biggest competitor) I was blown away at how good some of the products I sold were. They blew 3M away. I had always been a 3M guy and because of that I NEVER pushed what I sold AT ALL. Now, if I only used them on there own, I would have only seen half the story. I also found what ones 3M blew away, and I stopped pushing them, PERIOD. Another time I sprayed IMRON, PPG's DELTA, and my product in BC/CC and SS all HEAD TO HEAD. It was amazing what I learned. I REALLY understood what made them tick and the strong points and weak points. I can tell you this Delta was a heck of a paint. How many testimonies have you heard on IMRON? It is a STANDARD of the industry. Well, it SUCKED next to Delta and S-W Genesis, SUCKED. I couldn't have know that if I had only listened to testimonies.
I tested weld thru primers one time. I went out and bought every brand I could find, spent about $75.00 of my own money just to find out what would work the best. I found that the product I sold S-W was HORABLE. I never, EVER asked another person to buy it. I also found out a lot by doing the test like amount to apply and how importand flash time is.
I did things like totally abused Polyester primer. I repaired a car for a friend that didn't care how I did it, as long as the dent was gone. I filled the dent with plastic filler and sanded it with BRAND NEW SHARP 36 grit paper on a block. I then feather edged it with 120 and primed ONE application of polyester primer, about four coats one after another without any flash. I blocked it the next day with 180, guide coated it then sanded it with 400. I then shot a bc/cc BLACK on it. Cutting and buffing to a mirror. I checked on the car over the next year to find that the primer had not shrank one bit. I could not have accepted that it could do that, not from any body telling me who did it even. I had to see it BEFORE I could sell the product telling someone that it would do this. Now I know from other tests that urethane primer sure would not have done that, in fact trapped solvent is one of the biggest problems with urethane primer.

I tested spray guns one time at the tech center. They have on any given day over 150 different guns! I shot many different ones,and different air caps and nozzles, baked the paint then check mil thickness. All this to find out what the FACTS were. I wanted to offer my customer the best possible product.
I didn't only learn from the tests. I visited on a regular basis maybe a hundred shops and visited in total in my five years I am sure a few thousand. I saw more ways to do things in one year than most career painters would see in a life time. I learned that there are a lot of people out there that go completely against the grain and think everything is honky dory. They work WAY to hard only because they are hard headed and think they know everything. I have came to the conclusion that I NEED to know more about some of these rust products, I may be working to hard too. PLUS, if you are working to hard, I will pass on what I can.

I plan on testing not only POR, Zero Rust, and the like but also rattle can etch primers and a few other things like lacquer primer just for giggles.

By the way my first little playing with Picklex has opened my eyes WIDE. That stuff, at this point is simply amazing. I cleaned some surface rust on a piece of sheet metal with one spray and wiped it off with a rag to SHINY metal. Now, you have to be careful because it does leave a phosphoric acid coating so you don't want to use an etch primer but that would unneeded anyway. As of right now, I would think spraying epoxy over this Picklex would give you one great base.
http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

Now, for those who don't care what I happen to find out because "I must not have followed directions" I will not force you to read my posts, just pass over them. http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

As I said before I LOVE finding out I am wrong, it means I have learned a new way to do something.

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1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
1948 Chevy pickup, chopped and sectioned.

"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"



[This message has been edited by MARTINSR (edited 01-02-2003).]

These are the longest posts I have ever seen. Can we put this one on hold until the test is over?

if you do not like the length of the posts, do as martinsr said just pass over them and let people who want to respond
jake

Man.. this is a lot of reading. Can someone email me when the video comes out? LOL

I see both sides of this debate, and just like most things, I think each respective product suits their purposes in moderation.
I haven't used any of the aforementioned products yet, but I plan on trying them all to see which I feel best satisfies my own personal needs. I really appreciate the broad range of ideas, opinions and information that I get from this forum and I proudly take it out to my shop and apply it best I can.

Martin,
You are great at debating as well! I have learned a few things from our discussion. (Like it only takes 3 days to get carpal tunnel syndrome. haha) When I go to paint the '69 next summer, I'll be sure to read up on your older posts. Good luck on your testing.


Dan B

The End.

Can i use POR Powermesh to fill the sunroof hole on my car?

Hey I'm here to learn & enjoy reading all of the post on here some I agree with some & some I don't. After all it is free Country that we live in. I have learned a lot I about first Generation Camaro's from this site, MartinSr is great in his line of work, Jake is also a body man by trade, we all should live & try to learn something everyday, I've read all of the printed materials that I can get my hands on about rust fighter's & have used one on a Mercedes that I owned. I tried it & when the rust came back two months later I threw threw the rest away, but that was years ago & somethings improve over time, I'm waiting for the report on the test, & by the way I'm restoring a 67 RS/SS Camaro & have decided not to use rust fighters, when a piece of metal was bad I had it replaced with a new piece, it has costed me a lot more money & has added two years to finishing my car, but it will be rust free when finished with new sheet metal, with no chance of finding out two years from now that the rust fighter was not as good as they claimed it to be.

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1967 RS/SS 396 Camaro

Hmmmm..sounds like the "snake oil' i bought from the traveling carnival, also cures ingrown toenails. Blast, epoxy,surface, paint,done. Coatings such as these are great for bridges or oil tanks but not for cars, film build is to "fat" it just does not look correct especially in a judged show. Why not use Hammerite, same thing lot cheaper.

Wow 60 posts. I have not had a chance to read every post. I have some experience with POR 15 that I want to pass on. I used it on my car during the winter of 2000. I am sure other people have commented the stuff works great if it is used properly. I used the fiberglass cloth to patch a few holes in the trunk. I was not happy with the results. I now think that body filler may be a better solution. POR 15 does not stick well over paint, undercoating, and any areas that are not prepped (cleaned properly). My front subframe was prepped lightly sanded and painted with POR 15 and chassis coat. It still looks as good as it did 2 years ago. As I found out brake fluid does break it down. Be careful when you are bleading your master cylinder. The putty is great for filling holes and dries harder than a rock. I am thinking about painting my garage floor with it (silver version). When I painted the underside of the car I had a few drips that dropped on the floor. I needed a flat shovel to get them off and it tooks a layer of concreate with them when I got them off. It's great stuff but I think you need a rough surface for good adhesion.

Jeff


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Totally Dreamin 69 Camaro http://www.cape-cod.org/camaro

[This message has been edited by Balboni (edited 01-03-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Balboni (edited 01-03-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Balboni (edited 01-03-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Balboni (edited 01-03-2003).]

Can I borrow $3,500.00 from someone so I can buy this study? http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gifhttp://www.marketresearch.com/alertme/popup/signup.asp"> ID=12766875-246392199-242051868

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1965 Buick Skylark Gran Sport Convertible
1965 Buick Skylark H/T
1948 Chevy pickup, chopped and sectioned.

"Fan of most anything that moves human beings"

http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif http://new.wavlist.com/movies/084/afgm-truth.wav

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http://www.fototime.com/inv/E695F2E9BD55636

http://hobbystage.net/camaro/tomstv

Martin, did you post any results from this test? It has been a few years now. :)

I was wondering when someone was going to bring this back up.
I didn't want to be the one.
;)

I'm bumping this to the top of the list. very eager to see the results

Might be still waiting for the POR to rust, or chip off. J/K :)

What did you find out?

Enquiring minds want to know... :)

I was wondering when someone was going to bring this back up.;)
I didn't want to be the one.

Joe when have you refrained from something like this??? ;)

If I remember right, Len Stuart at Auto Body Store did a test
between POR 15 and Zero Rust, he did it on a piece of steel,
exposed to salt water, don't remember the results, might have to drop him a PM or drop by his site. Aloha.

Auto Restorer's Larry Styles did a comparo between POR15 and Eastwood Encapsulator and gave the nod to Eastwood.

http://www.eastwoodco.com/jump.jsp?itemID=852&itemType=CATEGORY&iMainCat=688&iSubCat=852

i used eastwoods rust converter and encapsulator
and sprayed salt water on the test piece and the por piece showed signs of corrosion in 2 days.
i did that test last year and the rust encapulator still isnt rused to this day .
the other por piece is flaking off rust like nothing was applied

I have tried the Master Series line of coatings (Silver and Black) And the products perform well and no hassle with multiple steps as with POR. You just grind off any loose or scaley rust with a grinding wheel then paint.
Heres a link to a piece of angle iron that was new, I painted half with master silver and the other I left bare. This has sat out back for over a year through winter spring, fall and summer months and the silver has held up great!
I know this is no pro test with salt sprays and high heat etc... But for restoring a car It definitely seems to slow if not stop any rust from forming. I did behind the quarters and the roof supports when I had the roof panel off. I figure for a car thats in the garage most of time it may help slow or stop any rust that may form and it is well priced. Heres a link to angle, I left some small thin areas in the silver painted side bare and as the MFG claims the rust will not travel past the silver. Good enough for me. Most of the bare areas behind panels have lasted for 40 years without anything and being driven and outside probably most of there lives so with this it should well outlast me...LOL. Heres the links..
http://community.webshots.com/photo/443555202/2821901010077826120mbpjsL#

http://community.webshots.com/photo/443555202/2762894620077826120LYsWJu#

I found the product on the performance years GTO board and the web page is www.nomorerust.com (http://www.nomorerust.com)

I did my entire frame, axle housings, etc. with POR15 Off my '94 offroad Range Rover - Not a rustbucked, mostly serface rust, rust on welds, etc. Prepped as per instructions, two coats, etc.

It started showing tiny rust spots within days. They told me it must have been humidity in the part - has to be 100 dry. In a perfect world I guess.

After 2 years the frame was rusting at the welds again, was affected by "fluids" & was sandblasted by the northeast winter sand/salt mix. It is imposible to get off of you skin though...

I suspect that a perfectly prepped peice of rusted steel would hold up well. Bit in the real world with mixture of rust and semigloss paint, etc - I think the claims are inflated.

I'm not saying I wouldn't ever use it again - just lower my expectaions. I may use it to cover the suface rust on the inside of my floorboards of my '68 that doesn't see weather much.

Peter '68 427

You experience below is why I decided to go with Rust Bullet. I guess only time will tell.

I did my entire frame, axle housings, etc. with POR15 Off my '94 offroad Range Rover - Not a rustbucked, mostly serface rust, rust on welds, etc. Prepped as per instructions, two coats, etc.

It started showing tiny rust spots within days. They told me it must have been humidity in the part - has to be 100 dry. In a perfect world I guess.

After 2 years the frame was rusting at the welds again, was affected by "fluids" & was sandblasted by the northeast winter sand/salt mix. It is imposible to get off of you skin though...

I suspect that a perfectly prepped peice of rusted steel would hold up well. Bit in the real world with mixture of rust and semigloss paint, etc - I think the claims are inflated.

I'm not saying I wouldn't ever use it again - just lower my expectaions. I may use it to cover the suface rust on the inside of my floorboards of my '68 that doesn't see weather much.

Peter '68 427

Ive used POR and the EW Encapsulator a time or two, but not a big fan of these type of products.

Not due to possible poor results they may produce, but I dont understand why anyone would want to use any product over rust. I know that many use it as a preventative measure, but some of these products say it will be fine over rusted areas. Why not either blast the rust away, or remove the rusted area completely and replace with good metal?

If you have well prepped, good metal (as you should), then these products shouldnt be necessary.

Just my .02

dave

So will just painting the sub frame etc. be as chip resistant as por claims to be? I was interested in that quality of the product. Of course I am like many who have just read about the stuff and took what others have said about it at face value.

Man, who resurrected this turd? :) I just reread this entire thread (took 3 days:D ) My 69 Camaro trunk still has no rust and my vinyl top has no rust coming through. The frame etc all look great. I asked my older brother how his Dodge Demon is holding up after about a decade with the por15. He said he couldn't be happier with the results. I just got a '57 Chevy stepside truck. I have removed everything out of the cab and found that it has light rust in spots on the floorboards...I plan on wire cupping with an air drill and a thorough cleaning, then por treatment.
The very best way to deal with rust is to cut out the metal, weld in new, and go from there. Not everyone in the hobby has the skills or money to weld, and in many cases, the rust is in a spot that is hard to get to unless you completely tear the car apart. Since this thread originated, there have been more products to hit the market. I too am eager to see if Martin ever did a side be side comparison between por15 and other types/systems, and how they performed...
Dano:beers:

Never did it, sorry. All the products are in my garage, along with the rusty metal and I never found the time to dedicate to the test.

I have however came to the conclusion that POR and the like fall under one of my favorite concepts, "Bestest". These products may very well be the "Bestest" way to handle rust. As you point out Dano, not everyone has the skills, tools, and money to replace everything.

I have not gotten into any deep discussion on this subject in quite some time for this reason. For some, these products perform an invaluable task.

However, I always have had this feeling to some degree. My screaming from the very begening on the net years ago was over the misunderstanding of what and where these products should be used. And more over, I wanted people to understand the hype behind in it and that it is still somewhat of a "snake oil". It isn't the BEST way to handle the problem, it is however "another" way to handle it.

Brian

*APPLAUSE*
You handled that one real nice Brian.

;)

Just the facts Joe, just the facts. "Never lie and you won't have to remember what you said" (Paraphrased) Mark Twain.

Brian

These products are not "bad", just seriously overused where they are far from the best choice of action.

It's just easy to think painting over the rust will solve your problem.

I want my 2 hrs back!

For the fun of it, I just got up and walked out to the back yard where the only "working" POR in my life was. I have an old trailer where I brushed some on the rusty frame about two years ago. It is now powder, it is totally gone powdered away in the wind and the rust is exposed. So at the very least I learned you MUST put paint over it, as it has zero UV protection.

Brian

I too have not bought into the hype surrounding POR15. I think something that sounds too good to be true usually is. I used a one step rust converter on my car 30 years ago and then watched the paint come off the subrame in chunks starting at about 6 months. I found this information a bout Rust Bullet rather interesting
http://www.rustbullet.com/IndTesting/RealTimeTesting/RealTimeTesting.htm

Jeff

Well then you didn't follow the directions "to the letter". It is written very clearly that you MUST topcoat the original POR due to a lack of UV protection.
My dad and i both used POR on our restos (55 Bel Air/69 Camaro/63 Imala SS 'vert) and can't find any complaints about their performance (aside from having to "wear" it off your skin!!).
I'm a believer!!!

I too have not bought into the hype surrounding POR15. I think something that sounds too good to be true usually is. I used a one step rust converter on my car 30 years ago and then watched the paint come off the subrame in chunks starting at about 6 months. I found this information a bout Rust Bullet rather interesting
http://www.rustbullet.com/IndTesting/RealTimeTesting/RealTimeTesting.htm

Jeff

You notice there is no test panel with epoxy or etch primer applied and then urethane paint.

Good test against other "Magic products" though.

Brian

Well then you didn't follow the directions "to the letter". It is written very clearly that you MUST topcoat the original POR due to a lack of UV protection.
My dad and i both used POR on our restos (55 Bel Air/69 Camaro/63 Imala SS 'vert) and can't find any complaints about their performance (aside from having to "wear" it off your skin!!).
I'm a believer!!!

OH God yes I understand what my results say, that under those exact conditions it is a failure. That is all it says, period.

Brian