...and then realized you had an issues with your headers too close to the ground?

Here's my deal. I want to lower my car for stance and better handling. I don't know what I currently have for front springs, and only know the rear multi leafs are not original (350 SB, coupe, no A/C).

At present, my front center cap is 14" from the lip....and the rear is 15". My driver side pipe is approx 4.5" from the groundright now. If I go with the popular Hotchkis 1907F (2" front drop) & 2407C (1.5" rear drop) lowering springs....I'm almost certain this will lead to another project and expense...new headers.:( I have decent ceramic coated headers right now and would hate to have to fork out big bucks to get new ones.

How many of you have faced this issue? I was on the verge of ordering the parts tonight, and just deal with the consequences after...since I love the stance the Hotchkis combo brings. But I thought I'd see just how many of you guys had to buy new headers after this suspension change. Thanks in advance!

I haven't yet, but I'm going to have to buy new headers.

yea i love the look of the hotckhis lowering springs. But I have Hooker Super Comp long tubes. The sounds of them scraping on the road is not a good one. I'll stay with my 4x4 muscle car stance lol.

I haven't yet, but I'm going to have to buy new headers.

You already know this, eh?

yea i love the look of the hotckhis lowering springs. But I have Hooker Super Comp long tubes. The sounds of them scraping on the road is not a good one. I'll stay with my 4x4 muscle car stance lol.

Funny, that's what my best friend (he's a gear head) says about my car's current stance:). It's really not that bad, but I'd really like to get it lower and beef up the suspension. Of course, I'd add a new, thicker sway bar, and new quality shocks at the same time. So yeah, I'm looking at approx $900 without even thinking about new headers :(

FWIW, on my car (I-6 with Hotchkis 1907's up front and stock mono leafs out back), there's about 13.25" from the edge of the fender lip to the center of the wheel so you may have a bit more room than you thought.

Note that due to changes in the shape of the fender, I'm not sure these measurements will transfer from 67-68 to 69.

My 68 is very low, crossmmember to ground is maybe 3 1/2". She will once ina while put one side's collector flange on the ground, but very rarely. Remember these springs are still, you don't get anywhere near the movememnt you would with worn out stockers.

Note that due to changes in the shape of the fender, I'm not sure these measurements will transfer from 67-68 to 69.

My 68 is very low, crossmmember to ground is maybe 3 1/2". She will once ina while put one side's collector flange on the ground, but very rarely. Remember these springs are still, you don't get anywhere near the movememnt you would with worn out stockers.

I've seen the Hotchkis combo on several 69's here (Spring combo sticky thread). In fact, DjD's (Dennis) car being white, gives me an even more vivid picture of what my car would look like stance-wise. I fear the header issue/change could end up being a reality. I don't know anything about headers. All I know is that mine are ceramic coated...but don't know about "long" or "short" etc...

You already know this, eh?



Yep, I have hedman headers that are beat up pretty good on the drivers side from before I dropped my car significantly. Ya gotta pay to play. :yes:

Note that due to changes in the shape of the fender, I'm not sure these measurements will transfer from 67-68 to 69.

My 68 is very low, crossmmember to ground is maybe 3 1/2". She will once ina while put one side's collector flange on the ground, but very rarely. Remember these springs are still, you don't get anywhere near the movememnt you would with worn out stockers.

From what I've read, even same year cars won't necessarily be the same, for various reasons.

Man, 3.5" from the ground? I have a curb drop from my driveway that I'm not sure 3.5 would make manageable! I can always make a point to avoid speed bumps, but transitional roads, entrances, driveways etc., would be problematic...I would think.

Yep, I have hedman headers that are beat up pretty good on the drivers side from before I dropped my car significantly. Ya gotta pay to play. :yes:

Spoken for truth :(

Part of what kills me....is knowing I'd have to buy new headers and then, knowing I'd have to beat & bend them to accommodate plugs and the new gear box.:sad:

For good handling and street manners set the ride height so that the center of the front lower A-arm bolt is 1/2" higher than the center of the sphere of the ball joint when the car is at ride height.

For all first gen cars with an approximate 25-1/2" diameter tire the dimension from the ground to the center of the the front A-arm bolt will be 9 - 9-1/2".

No header ground clearance problems here. See my website for pics of the headers on the engine.

Question isanyone here using 1 7/8 inch headers(small block) (sm that dont Scrape and thier car is not int the mustlce car stance (e.g way too high for my taste)?

if your going to drop your car, i think the best route would be to go with stock manifolds. maybe somebody makes hi performance (and high clearance lol) stock manifolds?

I did the Hothckis thing. Had to replace the headers. Went from Hooker 2131 Super Comps to Doug's D368's. Excellent ground clearance now. Both sets of headers are 1 3/4 primary tube diameter.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/gort69/DSCN0200.jpg

That looks clean underneath, Al. I wonder how many others have run into the same thing. Well, I guess that's why I started the thread, because I want to find out if I'm doing a $900 upgrade or a $1500 upgrade, lol.

I have successfully used speed bumps and other spots on the road to increase my header clearance from 2.5" to almost 3.5" in about 10 months of driving with the hotchkis springs

luckily I really dont like the headers I have now (and they were cheapo used ebay pieces) and just let them scrape, when they start to leak, its time for ones that will not hit the ground

I have successfully used speed bumps and other spots on the road to increase my header clearance from 2.5" to almost 3.5" in about 10 months of driving with the hotchkis springs

LOFL!

Carl,
What is your center of wheel to fender lip distance?
David

I have the hotchkis set up and my driver's collector hangs lower also. I have to watch going over speed bumps but other than that no real issues. Another option would be to get a set of shorty or mid length headers, that would take all of the worry away about ground clearance.

I have the hotchkis set up and my driver's collector hangs lower also. I have to watch going over speed bumps but other than that no real issues. Another option would be to get a set of shorty or mid length headers, that would take all of the worry away about ground clearance.

Oh, I'm sure there are lots of options, but I'd rather not have to choose from any :).

On the other hand, perhaps different headers might make it more friendly to connect my clutch return spring without it resting on the pipes (350). Yep. When I first bought the car I figured the PO just cobbled together what he could...so I bought the correct 2 springs. Well, even the contoured spring to bypass the oil filter still hits it, and the other spring still lays on a pipe. I carry extra springs with me, as I'm just waiting for the heat to eventually eat through/break the one spring.

But again, what kills me is buying new ones and having to dent them...just like the old ones.

What's the difference between "shorty", "mid-length", and "long" headers, besides...um..length? Sound? Fit? Function? HP compromise?

I'm having a hard time deciding on this. I was just about keying in the order for the parts on Saturday, but today I've cooled my jets a bit. I took a long drive today and got lots of the usual thumbs-up from folks including, a old school biker and his wife at a gas station. Then, I visited my oldest sister just a few hours ago. She'd never seen the car uncovered and she loved it. As I was leaving and walking out the front door, the sun was setting in such a way...that the car just looked magnificent...stance and all.

One of the other things I was going to do after lowering it, was to get either 17" Coddington or TTII's. But even my oldest son, who loves cars low to the ground and even likes the new "black wheels", said he really loves the Rally wheels. It makes the car look true period. Yeah, the TTII's would look killer, but they'd really change the original look of the car. Of course, I knew this...but I'm starting to rethink it.

I know the handling aspect would improve greatly by going the Hotchkis route, but I don't drive like a race car driver. I get her up to 100 (like today) every now and then, but not on winding roads. In other words, I'm more like to just cruise around. I also know I could even keep the same wheels...or buy Vintique Rallys in 17" size. I'm normally a very compulsive person, but I think I'm going to let this sink in for a little while longer before acting. Hell, I'm realistically looking at $900 for the springs, sway bar & shocks....and then possibly another $600 for new headers. And then...$1500-$1900 for new wheels/tires. Combined, this could be half of the paint job I'd like to get someday. Yep, a few more days to mull this over.

I like the period look, too. Today at the track, a couple guys were checking my car out, and the comment was made how they liked the "old school look" of my cragar SS wheels. and how they liked the look with 14's in front and 15's in the back.

You should seen the double takes when I mentioned the wheels were 16 and 17!

Just do it. Like everything else you've done, the high rate lowered springs will make the car drive better, feel better, safer, more secure, more stable.

I doubt she'll scrape. Those Hotchkiss springs are STIFF, yet they ride very nice. I did 120 miles today, with 2 people aboard and 300 lbs of gravel in the trunk! The front mount on my slide a links hit the ground twice, going over curbed driveways. The headers never touched (collectors are 3 1/8" off the ground!). My passenger, a neighbor and car guy who'd never ridden in my car before had a lot to say about the quality of the ride (smooth) and (tight) handling.

Just do it. Like everything else you've done, the high rate lowered springs will make the car drive better, feel better, safer, more secure, more stable.

Damn it, Jim!

Hell, I probably will :D

But shoot, my collector links are 4 & 1/4" off the ground NOW. If I turn the links (currently have one with the pointed end of triangle downward) I can probably make that 4 & 3/4" ...tops. But again, I don't know how far off from actual factory I am at present. Is there an easy way to tell what kind of springs I've currently got?

Although my headers are BEAT on the LH side, I rub them less now with the hotchkis springs then I do with the old unknown tall springs.

It's hard too tell, but it was tall before...
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d143/sej275/IMG_0317.jpg

It's better now.... (7/8 drop in the spindle, uncut hotchkis springs, 25.5" tire)
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d143/sej275/IMG_1156.jpg

But I'm heading for a 1" front drop...

yes, but where is your ride hieght now?
When Hotchkiss says thier spings will lower the car 2", they mean 2" from original new factory ride ht, not 2" from where a particular 40 year old car is today.

Yes, the specs are in the AIM, all you need to find out is how tall the original tires were. Don't ask me, I dunno.

yes, but where is your ride hieght now?
When Hotchkiss says thier spings will lower the car 2", they mean 2" from original new factory ride ht, not 2" from where a particular 40 year old car is today.

Yes, that's why I said I don't know what it'll end up...because I don't actually know what's in there now. I know the multi leaf rear isn't original...and it NEEDS to be lowered. But the front....the front is currently 14" from lip to dead hub center. The rears, 15" from lip/center. But again, I don't know if I'll actually be dropping it 2" inches from where it is, as I know it's 2" from factory...not necessarily from where it is now. I'd bet money the springs have been changed just judging from some other things done to the car. It started life as a 6 cyl, and now has a 12 bolt rear and new multi leaf springs, for instance.

Yes, the specs are in the AIM, all you need to find out is how tall the original tires were. Don't ask me, I dunno.

I know the original wheels were 14x6 and 14x7, but don't know what tires were used. Meh, it's all moot anyway...if I do it. If I do it...I just deal with what I have left in front of me, right? LOL. I'm already sure the 215/65/15 tires I have on the front probably won't fit if I drop it 2"...from where it is now.

Here's a pic that is deceiving regarding stance. But like any Camaro, they all look so different at different angles, eh?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/dbx/1969Camaro011.jpg

The stance actually look VERY nice, Kevin. If those wheels and tires stay on, I would not change a thing. With some 17's and 45 series stickies, that's a whole different story tho.

The stance actually look VERY nice, Kevin. If those wheels and tires stay on, I would not change a thing. With some 17's and 45 series stickies, that's a whole different story tho.

Thanks, Jim. But like I said, the view can be deceiving. Here's a side/ground shot I recently took:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/dbx/Stance-Height001.jpg

Still think the same about the stance? :) It always looks better/fine from the front, but from the back and a bit lower, it changes things.

If you had a 67 or 68 you can use my measurements to compair, 69 dont even look at these numbers
I just walked back in from measuring these
front 12.75"
rear 14.5"
these are both from the center of the hub up to the fender lip
but the rear I lowered with a lowering block and the hotchkis springs, it would be about 15" without the block

Edit: I wish I realized that was your 69 in the picture above, I hope these numbers help someone with a 67 or 8 decide later

If you had a 67 or 68 you can use my measurements to compair, 69 dont even look at these numbers
I just walked back in from measuring these
front 12.75"
rear 14.5"
these are both from the center of the hub up to the fender lip
but the rear I lowered with a lowering block and the hotchkis springs, it would be about 15" without the block

Edit: I wish I realized that was your 69 in the picture above, I hope these numbers help someone with a 67 or 8 decide later

There's been a lot of views of this thread, so I'm sure any relevant info will help someone down the line. I based my decision on stance by looking at other 69's using the same Hotchkis lowering springs. DjD's was one of those. I figure a 69' is a 69', and I like the lower profile the Hotchkis springs bring about on a 69'.

And for the record, I just ordered (in between posts...told you I'm impulsive :D) the Hotchkis springs for front & rear, 1 & 1/8" front sway bar, and 4 Koni Classic shocks. All to the tune of $1059. I scare myself sometimes.:confused:

Oh, and I forgot to beg...er...ask for an outline for doing this upgrade. I've read a lot about combos and numbers...and occasional problems with fitting leaf springs etc., but none specifically addressing a kind of ... logical order of how to go about changing the springs out. This will be another first for me, so I'm totally blind here....again, lol. But I'm a fairly fast learner. JimM was kind enough to give me an outline for doing the PS upgrade, and it was a GREAT help.

For instance, do you start with the back springs and then do the front? Does it matter? Sway bar goes on after you do the front springs? Same time? Put the new shocks on before.... Things to look out for...things that are a common bitch while doing etc... I'd appreciate any help/advice/instruction you guys can lend. Thanks!

Me too, I have Hotchkis springs on my '69 and have already replaced the headers once. I am SO careful but still scrape the flanges occasionally. Now I'm having some tire rub on the inner fender, mainly passenger side when pulling into a parking lot. Many people over the years have said that Hotchkis springs fatigue after time and the ride height lowers and softens, I believe it. I am looking for some springs that don't lower as much and probably stiffer to keep the rubbing and scraping away. I'm thinking about Global West but just don't know.

FWIW, ride height measurements from my '69 service manual:
Front = 2-7/16 +- 1/2" (this is the difference between the center of the inboard lower control arm mount and the inner edge of the lower ball joint seat).
Rear = 5-1/2" +- 3/8" (vertical distance from the top of the rear axle to a point rearward of the bend in the frame)

Since these measurements are relative to the chassis, tire size should have no effect.

First time I put my '69 back together, I used some jacked-up 4x4-esque springs so the 15x8 vette rally wheels would clear the fender lips. (4" backspace = no good). I've since swapped wheels and added the Hotchkis springs F&R -- they REALLY slammed the car., Waaay to much for me (top of the front tires were about 1" up from the wheelhouse lip, similar for rear using 235/60R15 tires). I ended up installing a 1" spring rubber up front and making some forged C-channel shackles for the rear. Now the tops of my tires are about even with the wheelwell and I like the look anc clearance I have.

Not sure if this was a result of my heavy front end (A/C, iron heads, iron intake, etc.) or what, but it seemed like more than a 2" drop to me. I'll have to re-measure my ride height per above and see where I am with my mods...

Out of curiosity, if you can get 1" lowering blocks for your rear multi leafs, why would I want to pay $360 for 1.5" drop rear Hotchkis leafs? This is new to me, but it got me to wondering.

Out of curiosity, if you can get 1" lowering blocks for your rear multi leafs, ....

That is exactly what I did. had 5 leafs I'd purchased several years ago, and used 1" lowering blocks last winter to get her down a bit.


I "think" the hotchiss springs are a higher rate than stock, there could be other differences as well, leaf spring design is actually more complex than you'd think...

Thanks, Jim. But like I said, the view can be deceiving. Here's a side/ground shot I recently took:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/dbx/Stance-Height001.jpg

Still think the same about the stance? :) It always looks better/fine from the front, but from the back and a bit lower, it changes things.
I still like the "stance" but would like it better an inch lower front and rear.

Not sure what / when you'll change wheels and tires, but comparing a car with 15's to djd's isn't really a fair comparison. 69's with low profile rubber look REAL NICE with a good part of the sidewall burried in the wheel well.

The same car with 15's looks a lil better if you can see some daylight between the top of the tire and the fender lip.

as alwaysm just MHO

I still like the "stance" but would like it better an inch lower front and rear.

Not sure what / when you'll change wheels and tires, but comparing a car with 15's to djd's isn't really a fair comparison. 69's with low profile rubber look REAL NICE with a good part of the sidewall burried in the wheel well.

The same car with 15's looks a lil better if you can see some daylight between the top of the tire and the fender lip.

as alwaysm just MHO

Jim, I was comparing to DjD's based on the same wheel/tire arrangement. In other words, 17" wheels of my choice with 235/45 up front & 255/40 in the rear. It might be interesting to see what tire combo I could use with the current Rally's I have...after it's lowered.

I installed the Hotchkis on the '69 which created header clearence issues. My are painted so I was able to modify them. I don't think that will work out for coated. Also not having the correct engine stands and motor mounts can contribute to clearence problems. Look at the headers closely, Hookers have a badge of such to identify them. Hookers will most likely be a problem.

Out of curiosity, if you can get 1" lowering blocks for your rear multi leafs, why would I want to pay $360 for 1.5" drop rear Hotchkis leafs? This is new to me, but it got me to wondering.

Couple of things off the top of my head:
1) Spring rate -- the Hotchkis tend to be a good bit higher than stock. Depending on what you have now, that may be a good thing or not.
2) Lowering blocks move the axle centerline further away from the leaf. For a given wheel torque, this puts more twist force on the leaf spring(s), which tends to try to twist them into an "S" shape under power. Since there is little/no effective way to damp out this "S" curvature (other than friction between the leafs) it tends to wind and unwind as you launch, resulting in worse wheel hop and a more difficult launch.
3) Springs design -- the Hotchkis spring is actually stiffer in front of the axle than in the rear. This reduce the amount of spring wind-up on launch since the front part of the spring acts kind of like a trailing arm, forcing more of the "spring" action to occur at the rear. End result is less wheel hop and better launch control.

Or at least, that's what the theory says. I've got no back-to-back to tell you how much it really effects things, or if you'd notice. Is that worth the extra $$$ ?? Well, that's your call. ;)

Thanks for the input. Within the last 2hrs I panicked and canceled my entire order. I think I need to find out about such things as you mentioned first. I also know that dropping the car will lead to a progression of other costs (headers, muffler shop trip, almost certainly new wheels/tires etc..), and I'm just not ready to commit to that right now. It bugged me since last night when I placed the order on-line. Just a gut feeling that it's either not a good time...or even the wrong thing to do for me. I like the sleek look of dropped cars, but I'm also a huge fan of the old school look. I'm torn, I guess :)

While out taking a spin just today, two early 20's guys intentionally missed their turn off (I saw them in the mirror both hanging thumbs-up out the windows, but they didn't know I saw them) and chased me down a parkway just to pull beside me and scream out, 'That's an awesome car, man!!!", and then they quickly hooked a left turn :cool:. Is it just the car? The wheels? The profile/stance? All combined?

I know in the end it's what I like that counts. But truthfully, I love classic/period look....perhaps even a tad more than the new lowered look with new age wheels. I'm just going to drive her until I know what the hell I really want :D

I'm just going to drive her until I know what the hell I really want :D

Awesome! That's why you have the car... to enjoy it.
Think about what you want and then plan. Don't make any last minute ordering decisions...

Carl,
What is your center of wheel to fender lip distance?
David

14" front.
14-1/2" rear.

Any lower than this in the front resulted in some nasty darting under hard braking.

http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/2049/17side2.jpg

Ya I lowered my car, header flange is about 3 1/2 in from the ground. I can just fit my fist between the ground and the header flange. Yes it sucks, is it worth it? Hell ya!!

Ya I lowered my car, header flange is about 3 1/2 in from the ground. I can just fit my fist between the ground and the header flange. Yes it sucks, is it worth it? Hell ya!!

I second that! Its worth every bit of steel from the header I leave behind, and I will be worth buying new headers that don't scrape

Hey Kevin-
My '69 has the 2" Hotchkis drop springs on the front, 1.5" drop re-arched 4-leaf springs in the rear, an Addco 1" front anti-sway bar, and Koni shocks on all four corners. Other than hitting a speed bump I have never dropped the headers on the ground. The Hotchkis springs are much stiffer than stock, but don't ride harsh. I am very pleased with both the handling and ride quality. The wheels are 16" diameter and tires are 225 & 255 wide and stock diameter of 26" with no rubbing anywhere.
Click below for more photos and I will send you a P/M with a few more. If you find yourself about 3 hours east of Atlanta sometime soon feel free to stop in.
Andrew

Hey Kevin-
My '69 has the 2" Hotchkis drop springs on the front, 1.5" drop re-arched 4-leaf springs in the rear, an Addco 1" front anti-sway bar, and Koni shocks on all four corners. Other than hitting a speed bump I have never dropped the headers on the ground. The Hotchkis springs are much stiffer than stock, but don't ride harsh. I am very pleased with both the handling and ride quality. The wheels are 16" diameter and tires are 225 & 255 wide and stock diameter of 26" with no rubbing anywhere.
Click below for more photos and I will send you a P/M with a few more. If you find yourself about 3 hours east of Atlanta sometime soon feel free to stop in.
Andrew

Thanks Andrew. I completed the suspension changes maybe 6-7wks ago. I ended up doing Hotchkis rear, Hotchkis anti-sway, Eibach 1" front (left me 3.5" to ground from lowest point), and SPC UCAs w/Hoew PC tall upper BJs. I'm very pleased with the end result, and I do not regret not using Hotchkis 2" drop front springs. Here are two pics to give you an idea of how it turned out:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/dbx/CarPic002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v509/dbx/NewWheels012.jpg

i have the Hotchkis 2" springs in the front and LOVE everything about them. they are farily stiff but i like it. my front tires are nicly tucked under the fender lip, and i have no rubbing what so ever. i have 17" Coy's c-5 (similar to TTII) with 4.25 BS and 235/45 tires on it. the back is not lowered yet, that is my next project

http://a777.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/28/l_38209117f35a0842254055b03cfb1de0.jpg

as far as clearance....it seems like i have all the clearnance in the world compared to my daily driver, which dosent do speedbumps and scraps the whole way down the road when the road crowns.

i have the Hotchkis 2" springs in the front and LOVE everything about them. they are farily stiff but i like it. my front tires are nicly tucked under the fender lip, and i have no rubbing what so ever. i have 17" Coy's c-5 (similar to TTII) with 4.25 BS and 235/45 tires on it.

As far as clearance....it seems like i have all the clearnance in the world compared to my daily driver, which dosent do speedbumps and scraps the whole way down the road when the road crowns.

Let me be clear for anyone reading this and considering lowering their car: I love Hotchkis products. I merely wanted the stance that 1" lowering front springs would give me. Additionally, I have long comp headers and didn't want to have to sacrifice replacing them (cost and performance). With a 2" drop, I would most certainly have had to replace my headers. This was the case with my car, and might not be for someone else's.

And again, for anyone considering such things: If someone were to only read posts.... and look at pics with "stats" posted underneath said pics, it would likely seem that Hotchkis TVS system is the way to go. And I would agree that it's an excellent choice.

But I "studied" zillions of posts and pics, and then contacted a few fellow members who had the products and year model that I was considering going with. This is where I learned the most valuable information. Things that aren't mentioned under pic captions, like: "I almost $hit when I dropped it off the jacks when I was done, as it was practically on the ground." Or, "I had to use adjustable cans after my first spring change disaster, and had to take them out and readjust them 4 times before I got both sides even." Or, (heard numerous times), "When I took it off the jacks it was actually higher than when I started." Or, "I ended up with the same height I started with." And there were numerous stories of having to buy new headers.

So, I hedged my bets. Not only did I not want to have to cough up $600 for new headers, I also didn't want to sacrifice the performance of long comp headers. And most importantly, I like the look of the Eibach 1" front drop. I was lucky; in my case, I got exactly a 1" drop in the front, and exactly a 1.5" drop in the back. A lot of guys, like myself, aren't 100% sure if they've got factory/stock front & rear springs to begin with...so it can be a crap shoot with how you end up. A 2" drop is quoted based on original "factory" height...not necessarily what you might have.

All in all, I could not be more pleased with the results, if just for the mere fact that the drops were exactly what I wanted. I just hope it clarifies some issues that new readers might not have considered.