http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260165378948

Curious what y'all see with this car. I see some issues with the docs. And the heads....

Ive seen alot of fake POPs, window stickers and the like. But i dont know of to many people that know how to fake a broadcast sheet,so i have to go with that being real. Doesnt mean the WS is real. 041s could have easily been changed over the years ? even if they are dated correctly.Key is the broadcast sheet and all its applicable boxes.

From the pictures it looks like the rear floor was gutted when it was a race car. The rearends of the subframe is cut off, probably to remove subframe/rearframe.

There is a obvious weldseam going across the floor behind the subframe so the raceconversion was probably more extensive than described. I suspect they had a full rearframe built in to it.

Also the trunk show signs of work. The trunk is painted all over, look at the overspray on the sidemarker housings and cables.


Heads could have been swapped early when raced. Probably ported.

But trimtag looks OK:thumbsup:

Jan

I though only one cam was factory installed, and that the off-road cam was over the counter.

Black grille on a Z, no big deal. Car looks like its been back halved, and probably had CalTracks or something similar welded to the framerails at one time. 041 heads, and the order number on the WS doesn't match the one on the Cowl tag, but the VIN apparently does, all I can see is x31208.

Even with some issues, this one will probably go for some big bucks.

Deffinately a fake window sticker. No paint color on it and $458.15 is the wrong price for an 04C car. I do not know if its the way the #s on the tag are cleaned off or the way the angle of the picture is or I looked at it too long but is seems??????

Like Mark said, order number doesn't match and I don't see a color on the w/s either.

the seller mentions the welded floorpans and some of the other things not correct.

Okay, here is my list:

Wrong (or things I dont think are original to the car):

Alternator Bracket
Heads
Silver grille not present
Tailpipe exit
Front springs sits high
missing bright trim on brake pedal
wrong master cylinder
wire going to temp sender
temp sender
body rubber bushings worn out
thermostat housing??
missing center spoiler brace
wrong starter

missing retainers of the shock mount that hold the e-brake lines

I am sure I missed other things.

spray bomb black detailing underneath.... Not a true survivor like he says.

Chassis Broadcast Sheet says F70-15 tires and looks original
cant read serial number and color at the top.

Window sticker raises questions in my mind.

I LOVE original paint cars, especially BLACK ones ...

NOTE the CORRECT stripe paint, why can't EVERYONE get this right?

trunk was resprayed in the wrong color, but a decent revived race car IMHO

Fake window sticker; placement of emblem on LF front fender indicates replacement fender.

A half-assed slapped-together attempt for a fast buck. Does not deserve to be classified as a survivor. The poor fake w/s indicates dishonesty.

I LOVE original paint cars, especially BLACK ones ...

NOTE the CORRECT stripe paint, why can't EVERYONE get this right?

trunk was resprayed in the wrong color, but a decent revived race car IMHO

I don't think the rear stripe is 100% correct...I know it does not run all the way down the back but correct me if I am wrong, the stripe on the spoiler should stop at the backside of the top edge. It should not cover that recess. No big deal and very nitpicky (nitpicky, is that a word ?:) )but I think I read that this guy is saying the car is original paint.

Still , I dig 69's in tuxedo black

Deffinately a fake window sticker. No paint color on it and $458.15 is the wrong price for an 04C car.

Is it me or did they misspell disc brake as disk brake?

Is it me or did they misspell disc brake as disk brake?


It's not you. It should be spelled "disc brake". A lot of people goof it up.

They screwed up on the G80 RPO code. It would never show the gear ratio. If that is the original subframe then the car was probably an original D80 car but missing on the sheet.

DC-5 topper - LOL.
And I see a lot more wrong than right.

However -- at $35K I still wouldn't mind.
Needs one of us to sort it all out - could be a nice car.
No picture of the engine stamp???

Nice looking car, no doubt.

No door decals
No door bumpers
Clutch adjustment rod on the wrong side of Z-bar.
Either too short of radiator or too long of top radiator hose.
GM never had a camshaft with the lift listed. Second design is the -140 camshaft, 1st design, .455/.481 lift; 2nd design, -754, .483/.503 lift; 3rd mushroom lifters, -293, .560/.575 lift. -- Chev Power, 4th edition, 1980.

But still, a nice car. I wouldn't refuse it.

Got the jack and posi stickers reversed. Also, trim the edges of the posi sticker square. Geez.

The white wall spare on the incorrectly painted rally wheel says all you need to know about the quality of this "restoration".

And......wrong pinion yoke, A.I.R. system missing, wrong power steering pump, PCV hose not connected, black knobs on window cranks, posi sticker wrong color, wrong rocker arms, and on and on..... :noway:

But I still wouldn't refuse it.

Hey, at least it doesn't have the dreaded "Caution Fan" sticker.

They screwed up on the G80 RPO code. It would never show the gear ratio. If that is the original subframe then the car was probably an original D80 car but missing on the sheet.

Hylton I don't follow what you are saying about the G80 rear axle code?

I don't think the rear stripe is 100% correct...I know it does not run all the way down the back but correct me if I am wrong, the stripe on the spoiler should stop at the backside of the top edge. It should not cover that recess. No big deal and very nitpicky (nitpicky, is that a word ?:) )but I think I read that this guy is saying the car is original paint.

Still , I dig 69's in tuxedo black

you are right ... my bad

I don't like the stance of the car..the front end sits too high...maybe it still has the big block springs in it...LOL.

Hylton I don't follow what you are saying about the G80 rear axle code?RPO G80 only designates a limited slip rear axle.

Another G code signifies gear ratio installed.

But I still wouldn't refuse it.

The floor pan repair job based on the pictures in my opinion is pretty poor. In addition, there are no threads showing through the nuts on the u/t bolts holding the shock plate. Also, how hacked up is the dash for the radio? Incomplete exhaust system.

If this is "sold" for more than the current bid.......:noway:

He claims docs are authentic. :clonk:
Sent me a poor stamp pad picture.... I can see from here it is a restamp.

with that being said - at the right price- this car can still be made correct - I do like Black Z's.

Edit.... - some of those old restamped blocks could very well be the originals -
unconcerned decking was not uncommon in the early years.
This could be turned into a very nice car - IMO - but it is gonna cost some big bucks to do that.

He told me the sheet was mostly not readable including color and vin and he didn't even know why he included it.He also said at 38000 it was not even close to reserve.

He also said at 38000 it was not even close to reserve.

:sad::sad::sad::noway:

My Norwood car didn't come with a build sheet. I thought only LA cars came with them.
Well, at least it's clean,,,,or maybe all that paint is covering dirt. And we might be picking these cars apart a little too severally, but, when the seller is so eager to tell us how great a car they have, it had better be great. This one doesn't measure up to greatness. Lots to pick apart.

Listing is gone???

Listing is gone???

Sellers remorse????? Busted?

He relisted, you guys are a tough, critical crowd.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ORIGINAL-DZ-302-Z-28-TRIPLE-BLACK-WITH-HOUNDSTOOTH_W0QQitemZ260166597230QQihZ016QQcategor yZ6161QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

He relisted, you guys are a tough, critical crowd.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ORIGINAL-DZ-302-Z-28-TRIPLE-BLACK-WITH-HOUNDSTOOTH_W0QQitemZ260166597230QQihZ016QQcategor yZ6161QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


But it worked. He took the "original build sheet and window sticker" out of his listing. At least for now, this car is being sold as a non paperwork/documented car.

The way the listing was removed by ebay, suggests that one of the former owners complained about their name being used in the listing.

I still like the car. If the paint is really mostly original... then it is a special car.
all the stuff can be fixed - just takes time and money.

The WS is a repro. The broadcast sheet looks real, but I'd need to see a better picture. I was asked by someone to verify if it went with the car. So I asked for a better picture of the sheet.
Here's the response, since he asked me to post this.

Post this to your little Bitchfest.
We have friends all over.
One such person from your group emailed us and pointed out the window sticker may not be an original. It wasn't you, pacecarjeff, or l88z16. The three of you have been too busy shinning us on about just how "serious" you really are about this car so you could nail us with your little buddies.
After the gentleman (who will remain anonymous) alerted us about the w/s we decided to peruse the documents closer and found the w/s to be very questionable and decided the build sheet may be also.
It would have been great if you "members" would help out instead of jumping all over us. I'm sure it is much more fun to bad mouth someone behind his back. Not all of the postings were defamitory and we thank those members but most were and they are the reason for this.
You can think it, you can sometimes say it, but you should never print it.
Fun and games are over boys.
There are laws that deal with libel and slander and what you people are doing by broadcasting your unsolicited opinions and vicious comments about our integrity, business practices, and/or our truthfulness over a web site certainly constitutes both.
If you think this isn't serious you should ask someone who knows.
I suggest you cease and desist immediately.
I'm sure some of you are real bad asses and hard headed tough guys so go right ahead and dig yourself even deeper but know that everything you post is being copied. We will bring suit against all persons involved in this witch hunt as well as the creator and administrator of your site. We are quite sure if we decide to file a "class action" suit we would have no trouble finding many others who have suffered some form of loss because of your careless actions.
We run a very honest and clean business and will not tolerate any person or persons besmirching our products or our name.
You have been forwarned.
Greene County Classic Muscle Cars


I responded by offering to determine if the broadcast sheet was real. I also offered to provide "copies of any of my posts or communications with you", if he needs them.

[quote=Kurt S;862558].
You have been forwarned.
Greene County Classic Muscle Cars
quote]


What a joke. You can sue anyone for anything , including counter sueing if you feel the suite against you is malicious and false, but in order to perfect or win you have to prove a loss. The way I see it the people on this board just saved this guy from a potential law suit when the new owner ,who may have paid market for thier original paint documented Z/28 , finds out at some point and time that the docs are fake and the paint is not original ....then there is a law suit were you can prove a loss of value. And now that an email exists that proves the seller has read this thread and knows many items on this car are in question and that his auction description is not accurate....now he has first hand knowledge that his car may not be what he thinks it is. So if he sells it and misreps it in any way there is not only a loss suffered by the buyer but a clear case of fraud . Hope you still have some ink left in your printer

Not all of the postings were defamitory and we thank those members but most were and they are the reason for this. We run a very honest and clean business and will not tolerate any person or persons besmirching our products or our name.


Most of the postings were defamitory?? I dont see where that is taking place.
Nobody said he didnt run a clean and honest business. If anything, this place pointed out a potential problem with the window sticker. Which saves his reputation!

Post this to your little Bitchfest.



Very, very professional business.......:sad:

Just so the seller knows - I was very interested in the car, and also had another friend who asked me about it.
I still believe at the right price- that car could be made into a fine example.
The black z's have alway been special to me.

As everyone knows - I sold my Yellow 1969 Z a short time ago, and have been looking to replace it this whole time.

I guess I should have known - you can't buy from a dealer.

Sounds like the reserve was going to be too high anyways- I asked 2 times never got an answer.
I miss the old days - someone would tell you they have a car for sale - they would tell you how much they were asking,
and if you liked the car - you bought it. Simple.

Dealers putting cars up for auction is just silly.
HEY Greene dude- 3rd request... How much do you want for the Black Z?

I responded by offering to determine if the broadcast sheet was real.

Their response:
> You Sir, are the one that first called attention to this car and stated you saw several things wrong. You also asked your fellow members to join in and see what they might find. In doing so you initiated this attack and are as responsible or perhaps more so as are the members who slandered us outright. By the way, the member who thinks he knows all about camshafts has it wrong. This is/was the OFF ROAD cam option, not the 2nd design road race. While we're at it acording to Mortech 041 heads were used on 69 and 70 302 and 350. Chevy Small Block Factory Part and Casting Number Guide states 041 was used on 68 and 69 302. We can quote books too but this is not the only Z we have owned and certainly not the only one with 041 heads. We don't care to participate in any more conversations with you or your group so please refrain from emailing us.


I take they did not want my help and now I'm guilty for just calling attention to the car. Not sure what statute that violates.

To correct their misstatements:
- there never was a camshaft 'option'. There was an over-the-counter cam, but it was never installed in a factory delivered car.
- 041 heads were never installed in a 69 Z. Only 186 heads. And 041 heads weren't even made in 68.


Sir / GCCMC,
If you need my address, just email me.
Try Jerry MacNeish's books for better reference material on Z's.
And the person that had asked me to look at the docs has decided to pass on the car after reading the reply in post #36.

Kurt S

Chevrolet Special Performance parts, 3/9/1972 "green book" lists production cam 3849346, Option small block 3927140 and second design option 3965754. Latter two were over counter only as mentioned. Guess nothing new here.

Don't let this guy sweat anyone. Lawsuits...HA! The car is for sale with all his pics that states there is "nothing to hide". He also invites anyone interested in it to have a "third party" look at it. Well if I was gonna buy another Camaro I would post it here and CRG because alot of you guys individually know every minute detail of what should be there. When some of you guys combine to look over a vehicle school is in! There is no better "third party". That guys feelings are hurt I imagine. It is a collecter item and with that it is open to authenticating the car piece by piece. Keep up the great work, I learn something new every day here!

Now I get it.

This "dealer" whom obviously knows little about Camaros buys a builder with fake paperwork probably for big $. They then place a ebay auction mis-representing the car and paperwork but that is all our fault. To their credit they pulled the original ad.

So they are not at all dishonest...just badly mis-informed. Their insistance about the 041 heads and cam shows that.

So guys instead of whining about us why don't you go after the guys that mis-represented the car to you in the first place?

I like the part where he says We guarantee our description to be accurate and below that he says Seller not responsible for correct description.I wonder which one he means.

For future search:

VIN 124379N631208
69 NOR302117
19N631208
04C

Does these pictures look like there was some major metal work that was done on the quarter or tailpan? My panels that join under the tailpan are very tight and lack screw holes. These panels look like they have been separated at some time. Also, there is layers of metal overlapping at this bottom edge from the tailpan to the quarter on my car. This looks like a distinct cut through those layers.

I have found these pictures in a public forum. I am only using the posted pictures as a source to gain knowledge in the assembly practices performed at the factory when these cars were built. I am not a party or participant in the "bitch fest" and I am truly on a journey just seeking the facts.

Yeah, patched/repaired/replaced. Here's my originals. Sorry that the new exhaust pipes are in the way. The paint on my panels is original.
http://epitomesrebuild.com/images/240.3.JPG
http://epitomesrebuild.com/images/240.4.JPG

Does these pictures look like there was some major metal work that was done on the quarter or tailpan? My panels that join under the tailpan are very tight and lack screw holes. These panels look like they have been separated at some time. Also, there is layers of metal overlapping at this bottom edge from the tailpan to the quarter on my car. This looks like a distinct cut through those layers.

I have found these pictures in a public forum. I am only using the posted pictures as a source to gain knowledge in the assembly practices performed at the factory when these cars were built. I am not a party or participant in the "bitch fest" and I am truly on a journey just seeking the facts.



It looks as though the car may have had a tailpan. Most cars by now have had some metalwork performed, some better than others. If the screw holes had been filled, it would look much better. The fact that screwholes are evident does not mean its not structurally sound. Clamp the lower lip more tightly, add a couple of plug welds if it was bothersome. Just some details needed IMHO...

I think you guys are doing a public service, and it's very educational as well. Keep it up!