With the prices that camaros can bring now, are we possibly near the day that a trim tag could be faked so well no one could tell? I have no doubt the sellers of replicas are becoming better and better. Will the whole collector market collapse with advent of the "perfect" tag?

The trim tag is only one thing in a host of things to look at when buying a collector car. Even if they do prefect the reproduction trim tag, there are other things to consider when buying a car.

When I was with US Camaro club, we always struggled with what to publish and what not to publish because a "how to spot a real SS" story could also be a "how to build a perfect fake SS" story to the wrong people. We had the same internal conflict when it came to Certifications. Since a very low percentage of Camaros have documentation, members really wanted certifications on original cars. So ultimately it was decided that if a fake was good enough to pass certification without any documentation to prove otherwise, that if it looked like a duck and quaked, it had become a duck!

I hate fakers. One of the reasons I got away from bolt and nut restorations. But there is some merit to the thought process that at some point the perfect fake has become what is intended to be.

As for affect on the values? There have already been cases in the COrvette world where more cars showed up at a event then were built! And those things keep on climbing.

To me, there should be a huge additional value (more then there is currently) for REAL paperwork and documentation, Especially as the car is a rarer breed COPO, Ynko, LS6. That is one really cool thing about Pontiacs, and I think the fact that original paperwork is available may very well push those cars up in value disproportional to the marketplace.

The restoration and tag sections of this site have many examples of fake cars for sale in various places. Ebay seems to be especially ripe for fraud, there are many camaros that look to be undeniable fakes that are selling for big bucks. While there are many other things to look for when verifying a car besides the tag, most if not all could be faked. Some may not be easy, but I have no doubt that for the right amount of money, properly date coded and stamped blocks and heads could be made that would be undetectable. Read up on counterfit money, there are some very talented scumbags out there.

Really, look what it takes to replicate a COPO vs their value. Is a tag and some stamped parts really worth it without verifiable dealer to present time paperwork?

Go for the Canadian cars as each one has paperwork you can still obtain via Canada.

Go for the Canadian cars as each one has paperwork you can still obtain via Canada.

Sure but that doesn't mean the car is real because the paperwork is. There is a picture on the SYC board of a car show in Canada were a 69 COPO and a L78 are sitting side by side and both high dollar cars have fake trim tags and I know for sure the L78 has real Canadian paperwork .

Who says that a car originally sold in Canada is the same car today. When GM of Canada used to give out information on a car they would provide a copy of the complete page of VINs and options that the car being requested showed up on. Sometimes you hit the jackpot and there was an L89 or something really rare on that page. All you have to do now is do a search of those VINs to see if the car is registered anywhere and if its not, get a fake VIN and Trim tag (all the info is on those sheets) and voila, you now have a documented Canadian car.

I've got the sheet with the 20 67 pacecar replicas that were built in June of 67 and sent to Canada as an example, should I start making a few documented Canadian sold big block cars? I don't think all of them have been located yet. I've also got sheets showing the info for z28's big blocks, small block SS's etc. Don't think for a minute that Canadian paperwork is bulletproof these days. All it tells you is that a car with a certain VIN equipped with certain options was sold in Canada back in 67, 68, or 69. Doesn't tell you that the car your looking at is actually that car. Oh, and they do fake that paperwork as well. Make sure you ask for your own copy of the info directly from GM of Canada, don't just accept the copy a seller is presenting to you.

Very good points Van and Mark! :thumbsup:

Who says that a car originally sold in Canada is the same car today. When GM of Canada used to give out information on a car they would provide a copy of the complete page of VINs and options that the car being requested showed up on. Sometimes you hit the jackpot and there was an L89 or something really rare on that page. All you have to do now is do a search of those VINs to see if the car is registered anywhere and if its not, get a fake VIN and Trim tag (all the info is on those sheets) and voila, you now have a documented Canadian car.

I've got the sheet with the 20 67 pacecar replicas that were built in June of 67 and sent to Canada as an example, should I start making a few documented Canadian sold big block cars? I don't think all of them have been located yet. I've also got sheets showing the info for z28's big blocks, small block SS's etc. Don't think for a minute that Canadian paperwork is bulletproof these days. All it tells you is that a car with a certain VIN equipped with certain options was sold in Canada back in 67, 68, or 69. Doesn't tell you that the car your looking at is actually that car. Oh, and they do fake that paperwork as well. Make sure you ask for your own copy of the info directly from GM of Canada, don't just accept the copy a seller is presenting to you.

And this is pretty much what I was talking about a few days ago

I have the window sticker, POP and the bill of sale for my car, and if my dad looked hard enough, I'm sure he could find the check he wrote to the dealership back in 68. All of this documentation could be forged relatively easily nowdays, even the canceled check.

In the long run, I don't think there is any documentation that can't be forged given the right application of dollars.

Sure but that doesn't mean the car is real because the paperwork is. There is a picture on the SYC board of a car show in Canada were a 69 COPO and a L78 are sitting side by side and both high dollar cars have fake trim tags and I know for sure the L78 has real Canadian paperwork .

and i know for sure the COPO has Canadian paper work as i was the one that took the pictures!

Excellent points. Unfortunately reproduction trim tags must be used in some cases as they do get stolen. It just shows that doing your homework is a must before having one made up. For instance at the shop i work at we have both a big block 67 pacer and a 68 yenko in which the trim tags were stolen (back when they were worth the going rate of scrap alum), yet we know the history of each car. It sucks that we have to have them made up, yet the cars are what they are.

Excellent points. Unfortunately reproduction trim tags must be used in some cases as they do get stolen. It just shows that doing your homework is a must before having one made up. For instance at the shop i work at we have both a big block 67 pacer and a 68 yenko in which the trim tags were stolen (back when they were worth the going rate of scrap alum), yet we know the history of each car. It sucks that we have to have them made up, yet the cars are what they are.

i agree with you but then again some cars are demanding top dollar and no one is willing to explain why there is a fake trip tag on their car.

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/287081/an/0/page/3#287081

I currently own a dozen collector cars and very rarely sell any every so often I will sell one or buy a new one. I do NOT buy restored cars, solely due to the faking problem. I love it when you read an ad for a car describibg it as so nice with new qtrs, fenders, floorpans and etc. All this tells me is someone spent a lot of time and effort on a rust-bucket. I buy and collect cars that are all original sheetmetal, matching numbers, and preferably with all original paperwork. Yeah they are hard to find, cost good $$$ and in the case of most 35+ year old cars that have never had the motors removed since new you have to work on them a little. But you KNOW what you are getting, not a welded back together, made up fake. Even if I am buying a car to modify or swap engines on I still only buy nice unmolested originals to start with. To me this is the only way to KNOW FOR SURE what you are getting. Todays market and pricing for the MADE car scares me to death, some one is getting rich and someone is getting TOOK !!

You're right Mark, I have a sheet from GM of Canada on my car and there is a few rare cars on it. For instance there is a COPO on there that I told Ed C. about as it was not listed on his web site and he never did get back to me about it. Lemans Blue automatic if I remember right. Anyway I often thought about calling and getting all the info about it. Wes