vin tag rivets ?? [Archive] - Team Camaro Tech

: vin tag rivets ??


67cams
Oct 20th, 07, 05:40 PM
Hello, i replaced my dash rotted out with a new one, need help on what size rivets to install vin tag on my 68..thanks glenn

Rack Man
Oct 20th, 07, 06:17 PM
My Bad....I was thinking trim tag rivets....sorry
Dan

fiveforty
Oct 20th, 07, 07:14 PM
The only place I've seen the rosette rivets that hold the VIN tag on are in Hemmings. They are reproduction. Has anybody seen them and do they look good?

red2bunkeru
Oct 20th, 07, 10:13 PM
trimtags sell them too along with vins! :(

MichiganMan
Oct 21st, 07, 04:55 AM
trimtags sell them too along with vins! :(

FYI..although "trim tags" as a buisness suck the wind out of the sails of this hobby.They most certainly DO NOT SELL VIN'S ! Trim tags and Vin's are totally different. It is a felony to sell VIN's,"So far" it's only illeagal in OKLahoma to sell trim tag's

sambrutay
Oct 21st, 07, 06:56 AM
good luck! it is illegel to sell the rossette style rivets.

gold67rs
Oct 21st, 07, 07:39 AM
good luck! it is illegel to sell the rossette style rivets.

Can you show me where it says that?

Rick H.

DjD
Oct 21st, 07, 09:33 AM
CALIFORNIA CODES
VEHICLE CODE
SECTION 10801-10804

10801. Any person who knowingly and intentionally owns or operates
a chop shop is guilty of a public offense and, upon conviction, shall
be punished by imprisonment in the state prison for two, three, or
four years, or by a fine of not more than fifty thousand dollars
($50,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment, or by up to one year
in the county jail, or by a fine of not more than one thousand
dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment.

10802. Any person who knowingly alters, counterfeits, defaces,
destroys, disguises, falsifies, forges, obliterates, or removes
vehicle identification numbers, with the intent to misrepresent the
identity or prevent the identification of motor vehicles or motor
vehicle parts, for the purpose of sale, transfer, import, or export,
is guilty of a public offense and, upon conviction, shall be punished
by imprisonment in the state prison for 16 months, or two or three
years, or by a fine of not more than twenty-five thousand dollars
($25,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment, or by up to one year
in the county jail, or by a fine of not more than one thousand
dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine and imprisonment.

10803. (a) Any person who buys with the intent to resell, disposes
of, sells, or transfers, more than one motor vehicle or parts from
more than one motor vehicle, with the knowledge that the vehicle
identification numbers of the motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts
have been altered, counterfeited, defaced, destroyed, disguised,
falsified, forged, obliterated, or removed for the purpose of
misrepresenting the identity or preventing the identification of the
motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts, is guilty of a public offense
and, upon conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state
prison for two, four, or six years, or by a fine of not more than
sixty thousand dollars ($60,000), or by both the fine and
imprisonment, or by up to one year in the county jail, or by a fine
of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both the fine
and imprisonment.
(b) Any person who possesses, for the purpose of sale, transfer,
import, or export, more than one motor vehicle or parts from more
than one motor vehicle, with the knowledge that the vehicle
identification numbers of the motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts
have been altered, counterfeited, defaced, destroyed, disguised,
falsified, forged, obliterated, or removed for the purpose of
misrepresenting the identity or preventing the identification of the
motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts, is guilty of a public offense
and, upon conviction, shall be punished by imprisonment in the state
prison for 16 months, or two or three years, or by a fine of not more
than thirty thousand dollars ($30,000), or by both the fine and
imprisonment, or by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one
year or by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000) or
by both the fine and imprisonment.

10804. (a) Section 10803 does not apply to a motor vehicle scrap
processor who, in the normal legal course of business and in good
faith, processes a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part by crushing,
compacting, or other similar methods, if any vehicle identification
number is not removed from the motor vehicle or motor vehicle part
prior to or during the processing.
(b) Section 10803 does not apply to any owner or authorized
possessor of a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part which has been
recovered by law enforcement authorities after having been stolen or
if the condition of the vehicle identification number of the motor
vehicle or motor vehicle part is known to, or has been reported to,
law enforcement authorities. Law enforcement authorities are
presumed to have knowledge of all vehicle identification numbers on a
motor vehicle or motor vehicle part which are altered,
counterfeited, defaced, disguised, falsified, forged, obliterated, or
removed, when law enforcement authorities deliver or return the
motor vehicle or motor vehicle part to its owner or an authorized
possessor after it has been recovered by law enforcement authorities
after having been reported stolen.

CALIFORNIA CODES
VEHICLE CODE
SECTION 5500-5505

5500. (a) Any person, other than a licensed dismantler, desiring to
disassemble a vehicle of a type required to be registered under this
code, either partially or totally, with the intent to use as parts
only, to reduce to scrap, or to construct another vehicle shall
deliver to the department the certificate of ownership, the
registration card, and the license plates last issued to the vehicle
before dismantling may begin.
(b) Any person who is convicted of violating subdivision (a) shall
be punished upon a first conviction by imprisonment in the county
jail for not less than five days or more than six months, or by a
fine of not less than fifty dollars ($50) or more than five hundred
dollars ($500), or by both that fine and imprisonment; and, upon a
second or any subsequent conviction, by imprisonment in the county
jail for not less than 30 days or more than one year, or by a fine of
not less than two hundred fifty dollars ($250) or more than one
thousand dollars ($1,000), or by both that fine and imprisonment.

5501. The provisions of Sections 4457, 4458, and 4459 shall not
apply when a vehicle is reported for dismantling. However, any
person desiring to dismantle a vehicle shall, in accordance with
Section 5500 or 11520, surrender to the department the certificate of
ownership, registration card, and license plate or plates last
issued for the vehicle. In the event the person so reporting is
unable to furnish the certificate of ownership, registration card,
and license plate or plates last issued to the vehicle, or any of
them, the department may receive the report and application, examine
into the circumstances of the case, and may require the filing of
suitable affidavits, or other information or documents. No duplicate
certificate of ownership, registration card, license plate or plates
will be issued when a vehicle is reported for dismantling. No fees
shall be required for acceptance of any affidavit provided pursuant
to this section or on account of any stolen, lost or damaged
certificate, card, plate or plates or duplicates thereof, unless the
vehicle is subsequently registered in accordance with Section 11519.

5505. (a) This section applies to any vehicle reported to be a
total loss salvage vehicle pursuant to Section 11515 and to any
vehicle reported to have been dismantled pursuant to Section 5500 or
11520.
(b) Whenever an application is made to the Department of Motor
Vehicles to register a vehicle described in subdivision (a), that
department shall inspect the vehicle to determine its proper identity
or request that the inspection be performed by the Department of the
California Highway Patrol.
(c) The Department of the California Highway Patrol shall inspect,
on a random basis, those vehicles described in subdivision (a) that
have been presented to the Department of Motor Vehicles for
registration after completion of the reconstruction process to
determine the proper identity of those vehicles. The inspection
conducted pursuant to this subdivision shall be a comprehensive,
vehicle identification number inspection.
(d) An individual in possession of a vehicle described in
subdivision (a), who is submitting the vehicle for registration as
described in subdivision (b), shall have available, and shall present
upon demand of the Department of the California Highway Patrol,
bills of sale, invoices, or other acceptable proof of ownership of
component parts, and invoices for minor component parts.
Additionally, bills of sale and invoices shall include the year,
make, model, and the vehicle identification number of the vehicle
from which the parts were removed or sold, the name and signature of
the person from whom the parts were acquired, and his or her address,
and telephone number. To assist in the identification of the seller
of new or used parts, the number of the seller's driver's license,
identification card, social security card, or Federal Employer
Identification Number shall be provided by the seller to the buyer on
the bills of sale and invoice. The seller of a salvage vehicle, or
the agent of the seller, shall inform the purchaser of the vehicle
that ownership documentation for certain replacement parts used in
the repair of the vehicle will be required in the inspection required
under this section.
(e) As used in this section, the term "component parts for
passenger motor vehicles" includes the cowl or firewall, front-end
assembly, rear clip, including the roof panel, the roof panel when
installed separately, and the frame or any portion thereof, or in the
case of a unitized body, the supporting structure that serves as the
frame, each door, the hood, each fender or quarter panel, deck lid
or hatchback, each bumper, both T-tops, replacement transmissions or
transaxles, and a replacement motor.
(1) As used in this subdivision, "front-end assembly" includes all
of the following: hood, fenders, bumper, and radiator supporting
members for these items. For vehicles with a unitized body, the
front-end assembly also includes the frame support members.
(2) As used in this subdivision, "rear clip" includes the roof,
quarter panels, trunk lid, floor pan, and the support members for
each item.
(f) As used in this section, "major component parts for trucks,
truck-type or bus-type vehicles" includes the cab, the frame or any
portion thereof, and, in the case of a unitized body, the supporting
structure which serves as a frame, the cargo compartment floor panel
or passenger compartment floor pan, roof panel, and replacement
transmissions or transaxles, and replacement motors, each door, hood,
each fender or quarter panel, each bumper, and the tailgate. All
component parts identified in subdivision (e), common to a truck,
truck-type or bus-type vehicle, not listed in this section, shall be
considered as included in this section if the part is replaced.
(1) "Major component parts for motorcycles" includes the engine or
motor, transmission or transaxle, frame, front fork, and crankcase.

(2) "Minor component parts for motorcycles" includes the fairing
and any other body molding.
(g) If the vehicle identification number, year, make, or model
required under subdivision (d) cannot be determined, the Department
of the California Highway Patrol may accept, in lieu of that
information, a certification on a form provided by that department,
signed by the person submitting the vehicle for inspection, that the
part was not obtained by means of theft or fraud.
(h) This section shall remain in effect only until January 1,
2003, and as of that date is repealed, unless a later enacted
statute, that is enacted on or before January 1, 2003, deletes or
extends that date.

DjD
Oct 21st, 07, 09:33 AM
CALIFORNIA CODES
VEHICLE CODE
SECTION 10750-10752

10750. (a) No person shall intentionally deface, destroy, or alter
the motor number, other distinguishing number, or identification mark
of a vehicle required or employed for registration purposes without
written authorization from the department, nor shall any person place
or stamp any serial, motor, or other number or mark upon a vehicle,
except one assigned thereto by the department.
(b) This section does not prohibit the restoration by an owner of
the original vehicle identification number when the restoration is
authorized by the department, nor prevent any manufacturer from
placing in the ordinary course of business numbers or marks upon new
motor vehicles or new parts thereof.

10751. (a) No person shall knowingly buy, sell, offer for sale,
receive, or have in his or her possession, any vehicle, or component
part thereof, from which any serial or identification number,
including, but not limited to, any number used for registration
purposes, that is affixed by the manufacturer to the vehicle or
component part, in whatever manner deemed proper by the manufacturer,
has been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, unless the vehicle
or component part has attached thereto an identification number
assigned or approved by the department in lieu of the manufacturer's
number.
(b) Whenever a vehicle described in subdivision (a), including a
vehicle assembled with any component part which is in violation of
subdivision (a), comes into the custody of a peace officer, it shall
be destroyed, sold, or otherwise disposed of under the conditions as
provided in an order by the court having jurisdiction. No court
order providing for disposition shall be issued unless the person
from whom the property was seized, and all claimants to the property
whose interest or title is on registration records in the Department
of Motor Vehicles, are provided a postseizure hearing by the court
having jurisdiction within 90 days after the seizure. This
subdivision shall not apply with respect to a seized vehicle or
component part used as evidence in any criminal action or proceeding.
Nothing in this section shall, however, preclude the return of a
seized vehicle or a component part to the owner by the seizing agency
following presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership and, if
determined necessary, upon the assignment of an identification
number to the vehicle or component part by the department.
(c) Whenever a vehicle described in subdivision (a) comes into the
custody of a peace officer, the person from whom the property was
seized, and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is
on registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, shall be
notified within five days, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and
holidays, after the seizure, of the date, time, and place of the
hearing required in subdivision (b). The notice shall contain the
information specified in subdivision (d).
(d) Whenever a peace officer seizes a vehicle described in
subdivision (a), the person from whom the property was seized shall
be provided a notice of impoundment of the vehicle which shall serve
as a receipt and contain the following information:
(1) Name and address of person from whom the property was seized.

(2) A statement that the vehicle seized has been impounded for
investigation of a violation of Section 10751 of the California
Vehicle Code and that the property will be released upon a
determination that the serial or identification number has not been
removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, or upon the presentation of
satisfactory evidence of ownership of the vehicle or a component
part, if no other person claims an interest in the property;
otherwise, a hearing regarding the disposition of the vehicle shall
take place in the proper court.
(3) A statement that the person from whom the property was seized,
and all claimants to the property whose interest or title is on
registration records in the Department of Motor Vehicles, will
receive written notification of the date, time, and place of the
hearing within five days, excluding Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays,
after the seizure.
(4) Name and address of the law enforcement agency where evidence
of ownership of the vehicle or component part may be presented.
(5) A statement of the contents of Section 10751 of the Vehicle
Code.
(e) A hearing on the disposition of the property shall be held by
the municipal or justice court within 90 days after the seizure. The
hearing shall be before the court without a jury.
(1) If the evidence reveals either that the serial or
identification number has not been removed, defaced, altered, or
destroyed or that the number has been removed, defaced, altered, or
destroyed but satisfactory evidence of ownership has been presented
to the seizing agency or court, the property shall be released to the
person entitled thereto. Nothing in this section precludes the
return of the vehicle or a component part to a good faith purchaser
following presentation of satisfactory evidence of ownership thereof
upon the assignment of an identification number to the vehicle or
component part by the department.
(2) If the evidence reveals that the identification number has
been removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed, and satisfactory
evidence of ownership has not been presented, the vehicle shall be
destroyed, sold, or otherwise disposed of as provided by court
order.
(3) At the hearing, the seizing agency has the burden of
establishing that the serial or identification number has been
removed, defaced, altered, or destroyed and that no satisfactory
evidence of ownership has been presented.
(f) This section does not apply to a scrap metal processor engaged
primarily in the acquisition, processing, and shipment of ferrous
and nonferrous scrap, and who receives dismantled vehicles from
licensed dismantlers, licensed junk collectors, or licensed junk
dealers as scrap metal for the purpose of recycling the dismantled
vehicles for their metallic content, the end product of which is the
production of material for recycling and remelting purposes for steel
mills, foundries, smelters, and refiners.

10752. (a) No person shall, with intent to prejudice, damage,
injure, or defraud, acquire, possess, sell, or offer for sale any
genuine or counterfeit manufacturer's serial or identification number
from or for, or purporting to be from or for, a vehicle or component
part thereof.
(b) No person shall, with intent to prejudice, damage, injure, or
defraud, acquire, possess, sell, or offer for sale any genuine or
counterfeit serial or identification number issued by the department,
the Department of the California Highway Patrol, or the vehicle
registration and titling agency of any foreign jurisdiction which is
from or for, or purports to be from or for, a vehicle or component
part thereof.
(c) Every person convicted of a violation of subdivision (a) or
(b) shall be punished by imprisonment in the state prison, or in the
county jail for not less than 90 days nor more than one year, and by
a fine of not less than two hundred fifty dollars ($250) nor more
than five thousand dollars ($5,000).

6700.3. (a) An application by a nonresident daily commuter for
indicia and an identification card pursuant to Section 6700.25 shall
be filed with the department.
(b) The department shall prescribe a form to be completed by the
applicant which shall include all of the following information:
(1) The vehicle license number and the vehicle identification
number (VIN) of the vehicle that will display the nonresident daily
commuter indicia.
(2) The name of the registered owner of the vehicle that will
display the indicia.
(3) A statement that the applicant is a nonresident daily commuter
as defined in Section 435.5.
(4) A statement that the indicia will be displayed upon a
qualified vehicle as specified in Section 6700.4.
(5) A statement that the place of employment of the nonresident
daily commuter is within the 35-mile corridor specified in
subdivision (d) of Section 6700.25.

4166. The department may assign a distinguishing vehicle
identification number to a motor vehicle whenever the motor or other
identifying number thereon is removed, destroyed or obliterated, and
any motor vehicle to which a distinguishing vehicle identification
number is assigned as authorized herein shall be registered under the
number so assigned when registration of the motor vehicle is
required under this code.

SELECTED DEFINTIONS:

267. A "converter" is a person, other than a vehicle manufacturer,
who, prior to the retail sale of a new vehicle, does any of the
following to the vehicle:
(a) Assembles, installs, or affixes a body, cab, or special
equipment to the vehicle chassis.
(b) Substantially adds to, subtracts from, or modifies the
vehicle, if it is a previously assembled or manufactured new vehicle.

431. A "nonrepairable vehicle" is a vehicle of a type otherwise
subject to registration that meets the criteria specified in
subdivision (a), (b), or (c). The vehicle shall be issued a
nonrepairable vehicle certificate and shall not be titled or
registered.
(a) A nonrepairable vehicle is a vehicle that has no resale value
except as a source of parts or scrap metal, and which the owner
irreversibly designates solely as a source of parts or scrap metal.
(b) A nonrepairable vehicle is a completely stripped vehicle (a
surgical strip) recovered from theft, missing all of the bolt on
sheet metal body panels, all of the doors and hatches, substantially
all of the interior components, and substantially all of the grill
and light assemblies, or that the owner designates has little or no
resale value other than its worth as a source of scrap metal, or as a
source of a vehicle identification number that could be used
illegally.
(c) A nonrepairable vehicle is a completely burned vehicle (burned
hulk) that has been burned to the extent that there are no more
usable or repairable body or interior components, tires and wheels,
or drive train components, and which the owner irreversibly
designates as having little or no resale value other than its worth
as scrap metal or as a source of a vehicle identification number that
could be used illegally.

432. A "nonrepairable vehicle certificate" is a vehicle ownership
document issued to the owner of a nonrepairable vehicle. Ownership
of the vehicle may only be transferred two times on a nonrepairable
vehicle certificate. A vehicle for which a nonrepairable vehicle
certificate has been issued may not be titled or registered for use
on the roads or highways of California. A nonrepairable vehicle
certificate shall be conspicuously labeled with the word
"nonrepairable" across the front.

580. A "specially constructed vehicle" is a vehicle which is built
for private use, not for resale, and is not constructed by a licensed
manufacturer or remanufacturer. A specially constructed vehicle may
be built from (1) a kit; (2) new or used, or a combination of new
and used, parts; or (3) a vehicle reported for dismantling, as
required by Section 5500 or 11520, which, when reconstructed, does
not resemble the original make of the vehicle dismantled. A
specially constructed vehicle is not a vehicle which has been
repaired or restored to its original design by replacing parts.

671. A "vehicle identification number" is the motor number, serial
number, or other distinguishing number, letter, mark, character, or
datum, or any combination thereof, required or employed by the
manufacturer or the department for the purpose of uniquely
identifying a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part or for the purpose
of registration.

DjD
Oct 21st, 07, 09:45 AM
If really needed I'll try to find the actual verbage of the federal acts... This sums it up...

Federal Legislation

1919 - The Dyer Act, popularly known as the National Motor Vehicle Theft Act, made interstate transportation of stolen vehicles a federal crime. This law imposed harsh sentences -- fines and up to 10 years imprisonment -- on those who transported stolen vehicles across state lines. Passed in 1919, the Dyer Act was an attempt to supplement states' efforts to combat automobile theft. Particularly in areas close to state lines, state law enforcement authorities were seriously hampered by car thieves' ability to transport stolen vehicles beyond the jurisdiction in which the theft occurred.

1969 - No further Federal intervention occurred until Congress established the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the mid 1960s. Title 49 of the United States Code, Chapter 301, Motor Vehicle Safety, required NHTSA to issue Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS) and Regulations to which manufacturers of motor vehicle and equipment items must conform and certify compliance. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 115 required all road-going motor vehicles to have a vehicle identification number (VIN). This requirement was phased in over several years. Starting on January 1, 1969, all passenger cars manufactured in the United States, or manufactured overseas and subsequently imported into the United States, on or after January 1, 1969, were required to have a VIN. As a practical rule of thumb, this means that every passenger car from model year 1970 to date has been required by the Department of Transportation (DOT) to have a VIN. At first the VIN's characteristics (i.e., its length, the types and kinds of information encoded within particular positions or sections of the VIN, etc.) for passenger cars could be determined by each manufacturer. After January 1st 1980, VINs were required to use a uniform 17-character format.

1984 - Congress enacted the Motor Vehicle Theft Law Enforcement Act in order to reduce the incidence of motor vehicle theft and facilitate the tracing and recovery of stolen motor vehicles and parts from stolen vehicles. With this legislation, Congress began to respond to the growing professionalism of motor vehicle theft during the prior two decades. The Department of Transportation implemented the 1984 Act by issuing the Federal Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Standard, requiring manufacturers of designated high-theft passenger car lines to put the VIN on the engine, the transmission, and 12 major body parts. This measure was aimed at professional "chop shops," which used stolen motor vehicles to get replacement parts for other vehicles damaged in accidents. As these "crash" parts (i.e., fenders, doors, hoods, etc.) were not previously marked with identification numbers, they were nearly impossible to identify as stolen once separated from the stolen vehicle.

The 1984 Act provided criminal penalties for altering or removing motor vehicle identification numbers; and allows seizure and forfeiture of vehicles or components with falsified or removed identification numbers. In addition, the 1984 Act authorized US Customs to require that exporters of used motor vehicles submit a proof of ownership containing the VIN to the Customs Service before exporting the vehicle.

The 1984 law provided additional teeth for prosecutors by bringing interstate trafficking in stolen vehicles and parts under federal racketeering statutes (RICO) and by imposing heavy fines and prison terms for export violations. RICO convictions keep criminals behind bars for years and include stiff financial penalties and confiscation of personal property.

A provision in another law, the Comprehensive Crime Control Act of 1984, made it a federal offense to counterfeit or forge motor vehicle title certificates. This law sought to prevent professional criminals from using counterfeit documents to dispose of stolen vehicles on the legitimate market.

1992 - The Anti-Car Theft Act of 1992 made armed auto theft ("carjacking") a federal crime, and created a new offense making it a federal crime to own, operate, maintain, or control a chop shop. The act provided funding to link all state motor vehicle departments, in order to ensure national access to title information, as well as implementing standards to improve vehicle titling, registration, and salvage information. It required state DMVs to check VINs of out-of-state cars before issuing titles to new owners, and forced auto recyclers and repair shops that sell or install used parts to check VINS against the FBI’s stolen-car database. Dealing in stolen marked parts became a Federal crime, and a grant program was authorized to help local law enforcement agencies deal with auto theft. Other provisions required Customs officials to perform spot checks of cars and containers leaving the country, and began a pilot program of x-raying containers to prevent the export of stolen vehicles. It expanded the 1984 Motor Vehicle Theft Law Enforcement Act parts-marking requirement to include vans and utility vehicles with higher-than-average theft rates, and half of the passenger car, van and SUV lines with lower-than-average theft rates.

The Act required insurers to certify that the salvaged or junked vehicles they sell are not stolen; and established a grant program for state and local anti-car theft committees, funded by car taxes or fees.

1994 -The Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Act (part of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994), required the Attorney General to develop, in cooperation with the States, a national voluntary motor vehicle theft prevention program, in which a car's owner could sign a consent form authorizing law enforcement officers to stop the car if it were being operated under specified conditions (for instance, late at night or in certain urban neighorhoods). Participating motorists must display a program decal on their vehicles. Additionally, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act made carjacking where death results a federal crime punishable by death.

1996 - The Anti-Car Theft Improvements Act of 1996 upgraded state motor-vehicle department databases containing title information, enabling federal and state law enforcement officials to instantly determine if a suspect motor vehicle is stolen. The Act also granted limited immunity from civil liability to the providers of titling information and to those who aid law enforcement.

The US Department of Justice has more detailed information on the following topics:

Motor Vehicle Theft Prevention Statutes -- General Overview
Mandatory Theft Prevention Standard
Voluntary Theft Prevention Standard
Anti-Fencing Measures
Altering or Removing Motor Vehicle Identification Numbers
Forfeiture of Certain Motor Vehicles and Motor Vehicle Parts
Trafficking in Certain Motor Vehicles or Motor Vehicle Parts
Motor Vehicle Titles as "Securities"
Sale or Receipt of Stolen Motor Vehicles
Chop Shops
Theft Prevention Decals
Importing and Exporting Stolen Property
Importing or Exporting Stolen Motor Vehicles, Off-Highway Mobile Equipment, Vessels, or Aircraft
Unlawful Importing or Exporting of Certain Vehicles and Equipment
Effective Date - Motor Vehicle Identification Numbers
State legislation - At least 10 states have created Automobile Theft Prevention Authorities (ATPAs), funded by surcharges on insurance policies or by driver's license and registration fees. A federally-funded Combat Auto Theft (CAT) program provides registered auto owners with window stickers that allow police to stop their cars for theft checks during certain hours. New York City's CAT program covers more than 100,000 cars and boasts a theft rate of only 0.7 percent, versus 7.1 percent for other vehicles in the city. Other high-theft metropolitan areas have instituted auto-theft task forces with some degree of success. Newark's auto-theft task force is responsible for reducing the city's theft rate from the worst in the country to sixteenth in just seven years. They recovered 2,400 stolen vehicles and made 2,200 arrests during the same period.

In many states, new title certificates that are difficult to alter or counterfeit have been issued, printed with erasure-sensitive inks on colored paper containing multicolored threads (just like money), and including the vehicle's odometer reading at the time of issue.

Private organizations that combat auto theft - The National Insurance Crime Bureau (NICB) keeps on-line databases, which allow member insurance companies to search by driver identification data, license plate number, vehicle identification number (VIN), and component vehicle part and type numbers. Information leading to the identification of the vehicle used in the World Trade Center bombing of 1993 was obtained through one of NICB's databases. The system reconstructed the VIN from the partial VIN found in the wreckage, and matched it to a van stolen from a truck rental company on the day of the bombing.

The Coalition to Reduce Auto Fraud and Theft (CRAFT) represents a group of insurance organizations, insurers and the NICB. They lobby state and federal legislators trying to get laws passed that deter auto theft, and have had some success in certain states.

Vehicle Chop Shop, Stolen and Altered Property Act: This law imposes criminal sanctions on persons involved with chop shops -- garages or lots where stolen vehicles are brought to be stripped of their components. It provides for forfeiture of tools and equipment involved in chop shops and allows for civil remedies, including treble damages and injunctive relief, for those aggrieved by chop shop operations.
Salvage Certificate Junk Vehicle Act: This law helps to standardize salvage vehicle documents. It regulates all salvage or junk vehicle documents whether the vehicle is insured or not. It also provides an effective procedure for the detitling of non-repairable junk vehicles and mandates surrender of a junk or salvage vehicle's title; ends the title chain of a junk vehicle; and establishes a paper trail to detect and prevent fraud and theft.
Vehicle Owner Fraud Act: This legislation combats owner give-ups -- where the vehicle owner is in collusion with others to file a fraudulent claim. Knowingly making, or assisting in making a false claim for theft, destruction or damage, or illegally obtaining vehicle ownership by making false statements are classified as felonies.
The False Police Report Act: This law makes it a crime to knowingly make, or assist with, a false report of theft, destruction or damage of any property to a law enforcement agency. Generally, the first offense is a misdemeanor, and subsequent offenses are felonies.

taken from...http://www.smartmotorist.com/the/leg.htm

For the CA laws above... http://www.leginfo.ca.gov

MichiganMan
Oct 21st, 07, 10:58 AM
trimtags sell them too along with vins! :(

SORRY, WE DO NOT AND CAN NOT REPRODUCE VIN TAGS

2007 Trim Tags, Inc this is on there home page of trim tags website at the very bottom.Again this is a federal offence in ALL states and if they are doing it they can and will be BUSTED

gold67rs
Oct 21st, 07, 01:25 PM
Thank god for the "find on this page" function. I wasn't about to read that all that.

The word "rivet", "rivets", "rivit" or however you want spell it was not found in the California Codes you posted.

I still want to see where it states specifically that it is illegal to buy and own a set of rivets. The style of rivets used to hold the VIN tag are used in many other applications.

Rick H.

BelAirBob
Oct 21st, 07, 03:09 PM
I'm no lawyer, but after reading through most of the Ca law, it seems like intent is the key issue. If you were to remove the vin plate in order to repair a rusty dash at a repair shop, which is all but standard for a first gen resto, then they reinstall it on the new dash with correct rivets, there is clearly no intent to defraud anyone, only an effort to restore a rusty part. Granted, unscrupulous folks are out there,swapping vin tags, cowl tags,etc, and they need to be punished and taken down.

MichiganMan
Oct 21st, 07, 04:13 PM
while it is prefectly legal while doing body work to replace the vin tag rivets I would document it very well.hemmings does sell the rivets as well as on ebay you will find them.However I can promise you trim tags isnt even dumb enough to reproduce the vin's

67FamilyFun
Oct 21st, 07, 04:41 PM
Yeow!! I read Dennis' post, and I didn't find anywhere that it would be illegal to possess vin rivits...
It did though inspire me to look up the federal code... http://law.onecle.com/uscode/18/511.html
I didn't find anything in there regarding possession of rivets. It does say you are allowed to remove a vin if it is reasonable for a repair or restoration.
Like Bob said, it's all in the intent.

Scott

Mark C
Oct 21st, 07, 04:59 PM
The only cars that it really makes a difference (use of the rosette rivets) on is LOS built cars. Norwood build cars had the VINs installed from below, because the windsheild was already installed by the time the VIN was assigned and its not possible to get the riveter up on top of the dash. Los angeles built cars have the rosette visible because the VIN plate was installed before the windsheild was installed.

Rack Man
Oct 21st, 07, 05:13 PM
The only cars that it really makes a difference (use of the rosette rivets) on is LOS built cars. Norwood build cars had the VINs installed from below, because the windsheild was already installed by the time the VIN was assigned and its not possible to get the riveter up on top of the dash. Los angeles built cars have the rosette visible because the VIN plate was installed before the windsheild was installed.

I think they are talking about 67's & your talking about 69's.....The 67's had the VIN plate in the door jamb.


Los angeles built cars have the rosette visible because the VIN plate was installed before the windsheild was installed
FWIW...You cannot see the head of the rivets on the dash of my LOS 69...they were riveted from under the dash as well...so I do not think that this statement is at all true....(unless I'm totally missing something)

Dan

JohnZ
Oct 21st, 07, 05:56 PM
I don't know specifically what statute(s), if any, make selling the rosette rivets illegal, but I can tell you, after many years as an assembly plant manager, that the FBI and State Police are VERY interested in how those rivets (and the VIN plates, of course, both blank and finished) are handled, secured, and accounted for. They show up together as a joint team, unannounced, about twice a year, and do a complete hands-on audit on the parts AND the records to make sure they're tracked and accounted-for daily, including talking independently to each employee who handles/uses them.

Having said that, I've seen rosette rivets for sale at lots of swap meets; the guys with all the compartmentalized metal trays full of miscellaneous small fasteners almost always have them.

:beers:

68 Ragtop
Oct 21st, 07, 07:47 PM
Hello, i replaced my dash rotted out with a new one, need help on what size rivets to install vin tag on my 68..thanks glenn
1/8" diameter by 1/4" long....

melav8r
Oct 22nd, 07, 03:43 AM
The only cars that it really makes a difference (use of the rosette rivets) on is LOS built cars. Norwood build cars had the VINs installed from below, because the windsheild was already installed by the time the VIN was assigned and its not possible to get the riveter up on top of the dash. Los angeles built cars have the rosette visible because the VIN plate was installed before the windsheild was installed.

Wrong. LOS/VN cars also had the rosette rivets installed from below, or head down. I've only heard of Firebird's getting the rivet installed head up before windshield installation.

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=99044

BEECHFRONT
Oct 22nd, 07, 05:45 AM
the rosett rivets for the vin tag are in deed available at trimtags.com

ldrisner
Oct 22nd, 07, 10:12 AM
Belair Bob hit the nail on the head. Intent.

If you are legit, no problem. As to the sale of the rivets...They are simply rivets. I see no reason someone could not sell them.

If you use tehm to defraud, You break the law.

If some one is worried about it, just have your DMV or,as it is in Ohio, the State Police inspection station people put it on for you. They are not going to do it without confirming the status of the car and it puts you in the clear.

BIGBLOCK70Z
Oct 22nd, 07, 10:36 AM
I don't know specifically what statute(s), if any, make selling the rosette rivets illegal, but I can tell you, after many years as an assembly plant manager, that the FBI and State Police are VERY interested in how those rivets (and the VIN plates, of course, both blank and finished) are handled, secured, and accounted for. They show up together as a joint team, unannounced, about twice a year, and do a complete hands-on audit on the parts AND the records to make sure they're tracked and accounted-for daily, including talking independently to each employee who handles/uses them.

Having said that, I've seen rosette rivets for sale at lots of swap meets; the guys with all the compartmentalized metal trays full of miscellaneous small fasteners almost always have them.

:beers:i

elcamino
Oct 23rd, 07, 05:11 PM
If you think vin rivets are not illegal to possess and sell, then why are these guys in jail?


http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb222/Z15_34396/vin_rivets.jpg

BIGBLOCK70Z
Oct 23rd, 07, 05:29 PM
Because They Were Up To No Good.:clonk::waving:

elcamino
Oct 23rd, 07, 05:34 PM
What are the only type of birds that don't fly?

67FamilyFun
Oct 23rd, 07, 05:39 PM
If you think vin rivets are not illegal to possess and sell, then why are these guys in jail?





Because state law in Michigan apparently prohibits the sale.

750.415
(5) A person shall not knowingly possess, buy, deliver, or offer to buy, sell, exchange, or give away any manufacturer's vehicle identification number plate, federal safety certification label, antitheft label, posident die stamps, secretary of state vehicle identification label, rosette rivet, or any facsimile thereof. This subsection does not apply to a motor vehicle manufacturer, a motor vehicle parts supplier under contract with a motor vehicle manufacturer, or a law enforcement officer in the official performance of his or her duties or to a motor vehicle in which a manufacturer's vehicle identification plate and each of the applicable labels listed in this subsection have been installed as prescribed by law. A person who violates this subsection is guilty of a felony, punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years, a fine of not more than $10,000.00, or both. If the person who violates this subsection is a licensed dealer or repair facility, its license shall be revoked.

elcamino
Oct 23rd, 07, 05:45 PM
I doubt Michigan is the only state then to have such a law. It seems other agencies were investigating those sales in CA and FL.


btw
Jailbirds don't fly

BIGBLOCK70Z
Oct 23rd, 07, 05:45 PM
so what you are saying is, in this country if you have a set of special rivets and get caught with them. the you will do more time and pay more fines than a child molester. wow. i am proud to be an american, and yes this country aint perfect, but you will have to kill me to get me to leave it. and i would proudly die for the old girl. good thing i am old and disabled:beers:

jacket
Oct 23rd, 07, 05:48 PM
Penguins. It would be good to get a definitive answer on vin rivets. I for one had to replace my dash on my convertible and used correct rivets. Had I not used the correct rivets, would that have been the best/ correct way to reattach the VIN. Or should I have not attached the VIN? Since all the hidden VINs matched I don't feel like a criminal. What is the correct or ethical way to address this problem?

67FamilyFun
Oct 23rd, 07, 06:47 PM
I doubt Michigan is the only state then to have such a law. It seems other agencies were investigating those sales in CA and FL.


btw
Jailbirds don't fly

I searched CA and FL code and statue and didn't find anything about rivets...doesn't mean it's not there, but I couldn't find anything...

67FamilyFun
Oct 23rd, 07, 06:53 PM
Penguins. It would be good to get a definitive answer on vin rivets. I for one had to replace my dash on my convertible and used correct rivets. Had I not used the correct rivets, would that have been the best/ correct way to reattach the VIN. Or should I have not attached the VIN? Since all the hidden VINs matched I don't feel like a criminal. What is the correct or ethical way to address this problem?

Sleep well...what you did was perfectly ethical. You didn't commit fraud and you had no intent to commit fraud. If someone was REALLLLY concerned about it, I think the best way to reattach would have been to do what Larry suggested and have the DMV or police attach the vin for you.

jacket
Oct 23rd, 07, 07:33 PM
I did consider having someone from DMV involved. Then I considered the purpose of a bureaucrat and took the easy way out. If I had a Z, COPO, #s SS/RS I might would have gone the extra mile due to the added scrutiny these cars bring due to their value. Lowly 327 convertible,#s matching engine and trans won't get that kind of scrutiny.

BIGBLOCK70Z
Oct 24th, 07, 06:07 PM
i believe you have committed no crime either. since all the numbers match you can document the car. but here in oklahoma, the DEV. OF MOTOR VEH. has to assist or you can be in big trouble. the intent to commit fraud is not there in your case.

GM_Restoration_Parts
Feb 2nd, 08, 07:13 PM
As a seller of Rosette Rivets, I have done extensive research in order to keep my butt out of jail and it is illegal in 5 states to buy/sell/pocess Rosette rivets to this date. These include Michigan, Illinois(Where Trimtags.com is from), California, Iowa and Minnesota...With that said, it is still legal to handle the rivets in about 47 states. As was stated before, its the intent that will get you thrown in jail. If you swapping VIN tags from one car to another, you do go to jail...if your restoring the cowl area of your car and remove the VIN for restoration, no judge in their right mind is going to put you away for that...just dont tell anyone about it and nobody will even know.