Hi everyone, I just purchased my first (1st Gen- 69) Camaro and after alittle closer (I am Anal) inspection I have noticed 2 things that i hope are some what easily fixable. Being that this is my first car, I don't know much about the car yet and have alot of learning to do.
The first is that the front drivers side wheel and tire are closer to the fender then the passenger side. Almost looks like it gonna rub. I have read a few threads on here and one person mentioned that the subframe could have not been aligned properly when installed and said that it has to be dropped and realigned. Is this true, can the subframe be adjusted to align it under the body so the wheels are centered between the fenders? If so how difficult is this to do.
The second thing I have noticed is the the rear drivers side of the car sits higher (larger tire to fender gap) then the passenger side. I have read some threads about this too which seems alittle more common. Can I just have the rear spring de-arched on one side to level it out or will this cause other problems not having the same spring on both sides? Even though the front track width is off, i am pretty sure the tire gap is roughly the same on both sides, so i would think that would mean its not the front springs or swaybar causing the rear height difference. I am real anal about the stance of cars and just want to get these two issues figured out and hopefully find a pretty easy fix for them. I know it could be other things too like the fenders or the body has twisted over the years(I really hope not because that doesn't seem fixable) but all of the fender gaps seem to be pretty decent so I am hoping this isn't the case. I currently don't have the car stored at my house so I will double check some of this stuff the next time i see the car. A few years down the road I plan on lowering the car alittle with a larger wheel and tire package, so i would like to get these issues figured out now for the few years I am gonna drive it like it is and and also so I can start out with a level playing ground when the new lowered suspension parts go on so i have a level baseline to start with. Thanks for all your guys help

It's good that you've read about what might be causing these issues and have a decent understanding. I won't comment on the front issue since it's a "side to side" deal, and I'm not qualified to tell you how to ascertain whether or not it's a frame issue or fenders.

For the rear; yes it's pretty common. How much height difference are we talking? Mine is off by approx 3/16" (DS is lower) and I decided to live with it. You can use a "shim" or plate on either side to raise/lower to compensate for the difference. But keep in mind that if you change one side...it may slightly change the other side :). It may be a trial and error kinda thing, but you can probably correct it.

Congrats on the purchase of a 1st gen:thumbsup:

First make sure the car is on a level flat surface when checking it's stance. Even a very slight grade will cause the suspension to work making for all kinds of changes in the cars stance.

For the front, it could be the alignment. Is the wheel and tire centered front to back in the wheel opening? Or at least centered the same on both sides? The camber settings can cause a wheel & tire to be closer to the fender lip or further away from it, I'd start there. Body bushings could effect both the front and rear issues you have noted. Bad or worn body/subframe bushings can have all kinds of effects on how a car sits and how the wheels & tires fit under a car.

Unfortunately replacing the bushings or aligning your subframe can also effect the way the front fenders and doors fit together. It's essential though to have good bushings in place. They play a major part in a cars stance so be prepared if you find you have to replace them.

The rear could be the result of the front issue or bad bushings as I've mentioned. There could be some independent issues though causing the problem. Messing with spring arch is not something I'd recomend, at least not one side only. That will leave you with different spring rates and will effect the ride and cornering. Look for differences in rear parts, I've seen different shackles installed on each side of the same car. I've also seen the front spring eye pockets being mix and matched from a 1st and 2nd gen... You might try raising the rear of the car so the suspension hangs and loosen the shackle bolts. Then set the car back on the suspension and bounce it a bit and then tighten the bolts back up.

Of course these are just some issues to look into, a 40 yr old car has been through a lot and it really takes someone to inspect, drive and really get hands on to isolate problems like these. Even then there could be some second guessing before all is well. Another thing to keep in mind is even brand new cars today don't all sit perfect...

thanks for the replies.

Unfortunately i don't have the car at my house yet to double check some of these things but i would say on the rear the height difference between sides is probably an inch or maybe 2. I know it might not be fixed to exact heights, but I want to get it to where it is not so obvious. On the front the difference is probably more like an inch, but i will have to double check these to get an exact measurement. Can a front end alignment make up for that much of a difference between both front wheels?

The car had a basic restoration over the last 2 years from the previous owner that i bought it from. I will try to contact him to see if all the body bushings were replaced also. Once I can get the car home, i will start to look at the assembly parts to see if i can notice any differences between sides. Not sure if i would be able to tell the parts from other generations, but hopefully I will learn to.

Any other opinions, suggestions etc. are welcome, thanks again for all the help.

...but i would say on the rear the height difference between sides is probably an inch or maybe 2. I know it might not be fixed to exact heights, but I want to get it to where it is not so obvious. On the front the difference is probably more like an inch, but i will have to double check these to get an exact measurement. Can a front end alignment make up for that much of a difference between both front wheels?

If you're actually looking at 2 full inches in rear height from left to right side of car, I'd say that was a major problem.....but I could be wrong. And again, if you're correct about there being one full inch difference in the front between wheel edge to fender edge in lateral, not vertical terms, I'd say that was a sizable problem too. It almost sounds as if the frame could be bent.

But again, don't be alarmed, as I'm nowhere close to being an expert on matters like these. When you said you were anal....I thought it was going to make me feel better about being anal about 3/16" height difference on my 69's rear, lol. But I've always had an architects eye when it comes to straight lines (I guess from 25yrs of woodworking), and 3/16" over a 5' span actually bugs me because I can see it.

Someone else will probably chime in and let you know it's all correctable. And besides, you don't actually have the car.... and may be way off on what you "recall" the visual differences being.

thanks

Yeah I was just going by eye. I really hope I am way off, but all i know is they are both large enough to notice a difference. I know i might not be able to get the measurements to be exact, but i do not want it to be so noticeable.

This is my first experience with a subframe car, so it the frame is bent, is it fixable and is it a big job. Like I said earlier, the body work and paint were done last spring, and from the last time i saw it all the body seems looked pretty good.

Also if it does end up being that the subframe wasn't installed right, can it be realigned and is this a hard job.

The more info I am getting on these two issues, the more complicated they are looking and it might have to get looked at by a shop. i was kind of hoping they were going to be more simple fixes that I could do. I will start with some of these basic ideas, like wheel alignment, loosing the shackles, looking for different parts used etc. Since i just spent my money on this car, guess i should start saving again in case it has to get professionally looked at!!!! Unfortunaetly the stance is one of those things that bother me and that why i want to get it to sit right when i get it home. When i finally get the car home I will try to get more exact measurements. thanks again for the help

You really need to get the car home and start doing some serious checking and measuring. You mentioned "shackles" as in those things we used to use in the 60's to jack up a leaf spring car? Those, combined with old/bad leaf springs, could be a big part of the problem.

The "lateral" problem in front is gonna need some careful looking at...

"http://www.campbellenterprises.com/Race%20math%20calculators.htm"

3/16"!! I can see it too b/c the as-hole put our pocket doors in this way so you can pull them out up top so they saved on pull hardware cost!!

Bttt.

Back then GM thought +/- a 1/2" was close enough for them!! And I had a Region Rep. tell me this after my pass side spring sagged after a couple of years and went back and bitched to them. Ended up paying something like $22/pr. for BB A/C springs and them installing them free.

I always walk around our cars and casually stick a couple of fingers between the top corner of each tire and the wheel lip to check for side to side alignment and almost all of our cars are off a bit!! Try "fingering" a couple a cars to see what I mean.

Mine's off some to the pass. side, but it's not the same front to rear and my car is fine! I did move my rear leaf springs metal mounts over about 3/16" to maybe a 1/4", (5/16"???), when I R&R'd everything back there. (There is a bit of hole slop in the mounts)...

Plus, my S/F is right-on b/c I fingered it's dowel line-up holes!!

pdq67

PS., 2nd Gen. mounts are taller so you can measure each side and if the high side's front spring mount is taller, you might have it??

My 68 Coupe was also a frame off resto when I purchased it back in 2005.....The front subframe is not centered either, the passenger side wheel sticks out more than the drivers side!.....I had a front end alignment done and it still looks the same!.....You can get a front end alignment but that won't cure the off center subframe.....It seems like you and I will have to drive or tow our cars to a frame shop to have the subframe professionally centered.....By the way, mine is off by around 1/2"-3/4"

ouch. That's a lot. Wonder why EVERYONE doesn't square the sub to the shell BEFORE hanging and aligning all the sheetmetal?

Jim,

Like I said, GM thought it was good enough back then.

pdq67

Thanks again for all these replies. It is helping me alot to learn more about it, but also making me more nervous that these issues are more serious then i originally thought.

I am trying to find a good affordable transportation company so i can finally get it back home and get better measurements to know where it stands. I'll post some numbers when i do. thanks again.