well, I've had it. :mad: Just had one of my employees beat up and robbed again last night. This is the sweeper guys, who have to work during the night, sweeping parking lots. And they have to get out of their trucks to blow the curbs and sidewalks, and to change trash bags, and this seems to be when they have problems.

In 19 years we've had a few skirmishes, one truck stolen from the driver, and a few beatings. Haven't had an issue in a while, but last night we did. I'm going to get each of them pepper spray (to hopefully knock down from a distance), and then a stun gun if need be. Looking at the one million volt mini stun guns, easy to carry and plenty of voltage. Any ideas how long the batteries last, or if it's better to get a rechargeable? And if rechargeable and not used, how often does it need to be recharged again? Any recommendations?

Jody

If you provide your employees with these weapons could their be any liability on your part if they use them on someone?

Jody...
Geesh..hope the person is ok after the beating. I would check into the libility of giving employees a stun gun and pepper spray. Here in Massachusetts, you need a permit ( FIC ) to carry Mace and a stun gun is illegal to have.


Kev

according to California law they're legal and require no training. Must be 16 or older (minors need written permission). Can't be a felon with an assault charge, or a drug addict.
I am not sure of my liability, and will check into that. But I can't keep putting them in harms way and not do something to try to protect them. At some point I do not want to do any more parking lot sweeping, but I am still expanding the electrical lighting maintenance, and not at the point yet where I can stop the sweeping.

These sweepers have been with me for 15-16 years and are friends, almost family. I'm tired of the frickin' idiots of the world taking advantage.

Jody

Exterior lighting around the perimeter of property seems to cut down on crime.....Are the trucks equipped with roof mounted, amber emergency light bars and spotlights?.....Stun guns can be deadly and I'd be concerned about liability issues.....What does local law enforcement suggest?

Exterior lighting around the perimeter of property seems to cut down on crime.....Are the trucks equipped with roof mounted, amber emergency light bars and spotlights?.....Stun guns can be deadly and I'd be concerned about liability issues.....What does local law enforcement suggest?

these problems always happen when they're out of the truck walking around the shopping center blowing the edges or sidewalks off. The lots are all lit, but doesn't seem to stop them.

Jody

Jody, if you should decide to go this route you may want to look into liability insurance. Just look at the worst case scenario, i.e. somebody gets tased by one of your employees and god forbid dies. You can bet the kitchen sink you will be sued. At the very least I would talk to your insurance company and your lawyer. They would be a good starting point. Always tackle a problem after cooling down and doing your homework. Good luck.

Sounds like a bad idea for several reasons. My first thought is when you give someone a weapon (mainly the stun gun) they can change. Sort of like how people change when they get behind the wheel of a car. Pepper spray is more of a defensive weapon, situational, and imo its better to be unarmed than use that against someone with a gun. Its the proverbial bringing a knife to a gunfight in that situation its useless and can provoke.


But if you insist perhaps to avoid liability you could simply suggest they buy pepper spray and stun guns and then give them bonus (equipment) pay. You could then get something in writing with their signatures stating that in light of recent events you cannot deny them these devices but that you don’t accept liability if they choose to bring them to work. I work for a larger company who wont let you carry even if you have a permit. They hired a security guard about 2 years ago. I don’t feel as compelled to "break rules" anymore.

Jody, if you should decide to go this route you may want to look into liability insurance. Just look at the worst case scenario, i.e. somebody gets tased by one of your employees and god forbid dies. You can bet the kitchen sink you will be sued. At the very least I would talk to your insurance company and your lawyer. They would be a good starting point. Always tackle a problem after cooling down and doing your homework. Good luck.

I carry a $2 million liability policy along with an additional $2m umbrella. I do think I need to speak with them first, good point.

Jody

I carry a $2 million liability policy along with an additional $2m umbrella. I do think I need to speak with them first, good point.

Jody

Whatever you decide, keep us posted with your progress. Best of luck.

according to California law they're legal and require no training. Must be 16 or older (minors need written permission). Can't be a felon with an assault charge, or a drug addict.
I am not sure of my liability, and will check into that. But I can't keep putting them in harms way and not do something to try to protect them. At some point I do not want to do any more parking lot sweeping, but I am still expanding the electrical lighting maintenance, and not at the point yet where I can stop the sweeping.

These sweepers have been with me for 15-16 years and are friends, almost family. I'm tired of the frickin' idiots of the world taking advantage.

Jody

Maybe a sneaky way would be to give them a bonus in the amount of said weapons, that way you are not directly supplying them to your employee's in case the worst happens. I'm sure with a couple of phone calls you can find the safest way to proceed.

Sounds like a bad idea for several reasons. My first thought is when you give someone a weapon (mainly the stun gun) they can change. Sort of like how people change when they get behind the wheel of a car. Pepper spray is more of a defensive weapon, situational, and imo its better to be unarmed than use that against someone with a gun. Its the proverbial bringing a knife to a gunfight in that situation its useless and can provoke.


But if you insist perhaps to avoid liability you could simply suggest they buy pepper spray and stun guns and then give them bonus (equipment) pay. You could then get something in writing with their signatures stating that in light of recent events you cannot deny them these devices but that you don’t accept liability if they choose to bring them to work. I work for a larger company who wont let you carry even if you have a permit. They hired a security guard about 2 years ago. I don’t feel as compelled to "break rules" anymore.


well, I've had two guys beat until unconscious, the guy last night was one of them in the past, not last night. Additionally several beatings, attempted beatings, etc. over the years. These guys cannot defend themselves without some help, so what would you do? They're 50+ years old, and not fighters in any way shape or form. So far we have not run up against a gun, at least that we know of. But at some point one of these guys may be killed. I'd rather them at least have a chance of getting away, where pepper spray gets them a chance, unless a gun is out and pointed at their head (which hasn't happened yet).

I'd look into some awareness training for your employees too. They need to be more aware of their surroundings and walking into areas that aren't well lit, too far from their truck, or provide a place for an attacker to hide in waiting.

Perhaps you could contact local law enforcement and request extra patrols be made at night when the sweepers are there.....I know hiring Private Security would be too costly, that's why I suggested the emergency light bars and maybe installing some magnetic "SECURITY" signs on the trucks.....And maybe installing some signs on lot that state that the property is protected by video surveillance system.

I'd look into some awareness training for your employees too. They need to be more aware of their surroundings and walking into areas that aren't well lit, too far from their truck, or provide a place for an attacker to hide in waiting.


oh, they're aware. :) I think only one time did someone sneak up on them. Every other time, including last night they saw the guy(s) way before they got there. Problem was the guys were between them and the truck. :(

The lots are well lit, and they aren't getting jumped in dark areas. Problem is, at 3:00 a.m. there's nobody around to see them do this, so there's little worry on their part of getting caught.

Jody

Perhaps you could contact local law enforcement and request extra patrols be made at night when the sweepers are there.....I know hiring Private Security would be too costly, that's why I suggested the emergency light bars and maybe installing some magnetic "SECURITY" signs on the trucks.....And maybe installing some signs on lot that state that the property is protected by video surveillance system.

they go to several different shopping centers each night, so unless a cop or security followed them on their route there's no way to schedule this. If they were at one center all night this would work.

The trucks do have flashing light bars on them, but again, all the trouble is when they're out of the trucks.

When they get at a lot the first thing they do is pull up front at one end, get out of the truck, grab a backpack blower, and start blowing the sidewalks and main curb line. So no matter what there's no way to bring the truck along with you, you will be alone from time to time.

Jody

I realize what a pain in the arse it would be, but perhaps they do need to be bringing the truck with them every 20 feet or so.

I realize what a pain in the arse it would be, but perhaps they do need to be bringing the truck with them every 20 feet or so.

yeah, it would help, at least as far as keeping them closer to the truck, but these centers are hundreds of yards long.

Jody

Rottweilers?

alan

I would rather be in trouble then dead, I carry a pistol in the mountains and sure would on that type of job as well. Flame away.

Jody, another weapon option is an extendable baton. Very easy to use as well as carrying it on your waist. Again, you will have to see about state law and training for this as well as insurance. But the extendable bagons are very effective. I can honestly say that with personal experience.

Just to add comedy to the thread with no other purpose, but I'm thinking truck top mounted, remote controlled 50 cal machine guns would be beneficial to your drivers.

Just to add comedy to the thread with no other purpose, but I'm thinking truck top mounted, remote controlled 50 cal machine guns would be beneficial to your drivers.

OOOHHH...that's an awesome idea. :hurray: Can I test the prototype???? :beers:

Why are they getting beaten? Do these fools think that your drivers are carrying large sums of cash?

I've seen sweeper guys work before where they do the edge blowing with truck mounted blowers.... they kind of hang out the window and drive while they do it...

Otherwise, pepper-foam. You can see where it's going that way.

Also, non-company sponsored self defense training. It could be useful. I'm sure it's not chuck norris jumping these guys, probably tweakers...

Good Luck.

... Flame away.

It is not wise to 'flame away' at a man who may be armed ;)

Jody:
Just a thought - Is there any way the guys could 'cover' each other just through the out-of-truck work at the centers for their nights work. Then they could move on (or return) to a center to complete the truck sweeping in the relative safety of their trucks individually.
May not be the most efficient way or the end-all-be-all to your/their problem of on the job safety, but it could get you through the next few months until you can give this part of your service up.
A partial contract with a Security firm to do the same coverage of the guys may be another option.

My last choice would probably be arming them with a deterant device that may/may not be effective, specially if there is more than one assailant and would depend on them escallating the situation trying to protect themselves.
Maybe they could/should consider arming themselves personally - they may be able to get a CCP in your area.
I used to work in a very 'iffy' area many years ago. It was fairly well known that several of the employees carried - it's amazing how just reaching under your jacket could get some of the "local boys" to move to the other side of the street ...

John

Those are some good ideas John. How about sending 2 guys around to each lot just to do the blowing on the sidewalks leaving your drivers to stay in their trucks when they are alone?

Do your trucks have alarms on them? Putting a very loud siren with panic remotes on them would be cheap too.

Jody, I would like to congratulate, and thank you for caring about your guys. This is getting to be a rare trait these days. I think you are on the right track with pepper spray. The reason is you don't want a possible attacker to get any closer to you than you have to. Also a sweep of pepper spray does not require very much accuracy to be effective. Training is also not hard to find. Some of the better training facilities will offer corperate "team building" calsses including hand to hand, edge weapons, pepper spray, firearms (if you want) and most importantly awareness. Bad guys, like animals, are oppertunistic and look for easy targets. Not just an older person, but also someone with a dissability, or just not paying attention. Do your guys work in teams? Most bad guys will not stay around for a good long beating if they think the partner has called the cops. For the other posters on this thread that are wondering what the sweepers have that is drawing an attack, probably nothing. Sadly society has gotten to the point that people beat and kill other people for no reason. I learned, in one of the classes I mentioned above, that up to two percent of the general population is mentally defective, and willing to harm or kill you FOR NO REASON! I am not a doom and gloom person, but like Jody, I want to be prepared. Good luck to you and your guys. If your ever working near my home feel free to give me a call. It would not be the first time I have stood guard while someone worked.

Any possibility of these guys working in pairs? You might have to change your work process to maintain cost effectiveness but it would be a safer environment. There are many options for pepper sprays etc. but if there is more than one assailant, and there usually is, it won't do much good.

Hey Jody,
What about the parking lot owners? Could you have them provide closer security while your drivers are on site? Do they have any liability since the attack is happening on their property?

Only one real equalizer in these situations. In Cali however, it might be less painful to just take the beating. Defending yourself these days almost gurantees a day in court...for the victim to defend his actions as it relates to defending his life. I think I'd just find another line of work. I know running is not the answer, but if I get beaten unconcious, I am either packing a weapon, or finding new work. I simply cannot (and will not) rely on my boss, or the state to protect me.

Sorry to hear one of your employees got hurt. I don't like the idea of a stun gun, because the only ones that are legal require you to get to close to your attacker, might as well have a knife. As you stated the victims are not fighters so they need to protect themselves from a distance. I do like the pepper spray idea a lot more. Even better than pepper spray is a gun loaded with rubber bullets. As mentioned it is tough to protect yourself these days without getting in trouble. The good thing is, trouble can be fixed or paid off, getting seriously beaten or killed can't be. The baton is a bad idea unless you are trained and in the physical shape to not get it taken away, that could just make the beating worse. At least with pepper spray if somehow they got it taken away they would "only" be in for a beating and maybe a bit of discomfort from the spray.

Have your employees sign a waiver stating they are not allowed to and will not carry weapons. At the same time turn a blind eye to it it they decide to protect themselves. Nothing worse than cowardly thieves. Sometime you can't follow the rules of the law. Laws only keep the honest people honest. Until the allow starts to allow the honest and innocent to protect themselves, these things will continue to happen.

Two employees beaten unconscious is a very serious thing to happen to a company.
With that said look at it this way. The next time it happens, the guy may not be so lucky and real damage may happen to him. Had you rather be sued by an employee or his family after the third occurance or a scum bag that was hurt while the employee was definding him/her self?????????? Which would you have a better chanse to win with a jury?????
I say shock the scum, :hurray:but read my sig.
Tom

Pepper spray might aid in your workers' defence... but be wary of stun/taser use!... this is a huge prob in Canada right now, as several have been killed with taser use, and there's questions as to further police use. ... The awareness program is an excellent option, as they often point out things that you might miss. Also, if possible you might have a supervisor come around when they radio that they are about to get out of their vehicle. As far as extra patrols by the reg police,... they are often stetched to the limit and can't do this service.

Another suggestion could be that you may have to change the job description of what the workers can do. Keep them within the security of the trucks, and explain this to your lot owners. Maybe, you could have some of the workers have a patrol-type dog with them in the higher crime rate areas. I know that I'm stretching at solutions, but you do have a problem, and the bad guys always go for the soft underbelly. Finally, what about adapting a tool which would allow the lot workers to operate from within the confines of the truck?

Night workers are at peril in these times, and we often don't do enough to protect these people... having been an X police officer, I have experienced attending these situations.

capt68

thanks for the feedback guys, several good ideas. As far as beatings, there have been some but again there's three trucks running every night and this is over a period of 19 years, so looked at that way it's pretty infrequent.

However, these guys have worked for me 15+ years and I don't want them hurt. They seem to have less problem with this situation than I do. I'm just trying to figure out the best way to at least have them somewhat safe.

I've run two guys per truck in the past, but they do not like it as it requires me to add stops to each route, making them longer. I can't have supervisors or other sweeper trucks meet at the centers when they're arriving as the routes are all in different areas, and each truck goes to several different centers every night. If they just went to one or two stops each then it logistically may be possible, but that is not the case here.

If nothing else this further motivates me to keep growing the electrical lighting maintenance side of my business, so I can drop the sweeping and move these guys over there.

Jody