Hi guys. I have a problem that I hope TC can help me with. I installed my Savitske tubular upper control arms today and had it aligned. Here are the specs per Savitske:

Camber: -1/2*
Caster: +4.5*-+5.5*
Toe In: 1/16" Total

My problem is this. The car wanders very badly. Am I correct in thinking that Caster is resonsible for this? The steering wheel is very touchy as well. One last thing. The steering wheel doesn't seem to want to return to center very well either. What do you guys think? Thanks in advance.

Camber: -1/2*
Caster: +4.5*-+5.5*
Toe In: 1/16" Total

My problem is this. The car wanders very badly. Am I correct in thinking that Caster is resonsible for this? The steering wheel is very touchy as well. One last thing. The steering wheel doesn't seem to want to return to center very well either. What do you guys think? Thanks in advance.

Charlie, what * caster did you end up with? I believe that yes, caster is what you're feeling. I have right at 5* on mine, and when I was changing lanes in downtown Atlanta (soon after I had it aligned) it freaked me out a bit. Felt like a wheel/axle was spinning out of the tube as the car felt like it was "sliding" into the new lane. I believe a high degree of caster is better suited for driving on twisting/turning roads, overall. When there are changes in the road (invisible ridges), your car will "glide" if you're engaged in turning the wheel at all. At least, this was the condition of the road in my case when I first felt it. And if you have a high degree of caster and drive mostly on highways, you'll likely wear your tires out faster. But my car doesn't "wander" on its own, as you described. I HAVE to be steering slightly left/right and have uneven road conditions to experience what I described. Driving straight....no problem at all.

My steering is responsive, but I wouldn't characterize it as touchy, at all. I have "average" return to center as of now, but it seems to have improved over time since I installed 3rd gen steering. I believe this is somewhat common.

You may have play in the steering box.
Do a search here on how to adjust it.
Less self return is common with high caster settings on a first gen.
David

I did some reading online last night and found that low * of Caster will cause wandering and also the more Caster the more return to center. I do not know what the settings were set to, but I have a feeling that the car did not get as much Caster as the specs called for. The guy doing the alignment was a young kid and I had to do a lot of explaining on how to adjust the particular control arms I have. I no longer make adjustments by adding or removing shims. My adjustments are done by turning an adjuster just like a tie rod set up. The car is going back on Tuesday and an older(Master Tech) is going to re-do it. What I may do in the meantime is play with the arms a little. Seeing as how the Camber and Toe are ok, I may just turn the rear side out a little or the front side in a little and see what I get. If it goes out the car is going back anyway.

Here is what I am thinking. I have an angle finder, one used for pinion angles. Now, I know it may not give me the exact angle like an alignment machine will, but I will be able to get an idea of what angle I am starting with as far as the forward leaning of the ball joints.

Dave, as fas as play in the box, I don't think that is it. Before the new control arms and the alignment the car drove beautifully. It turned on a dime. I feel like one of the lucky ones as far as the 3rd gen box swap. The car had no wandering, no pulling, and would change direction as soon as the wheel began to move. Well, I did have a slight case of pull, but I was told that was because my caster was so far out to begin with. This was with the OEM control arms.

Don't be surprised if he can't dial out 5* caster with your SPC arms. Mark claims that me, and one other member here (BPOS) are the only ones who needed adj. sleeves longer than 4" to get proper caster, but I find that...odd. I could only get like, +2.7* max with the 4" sleeves. In fact, I had him send me 6" sleeves so I wouldn't be sweating it. You want to make sure that you have at LEAST 1" of thread showing on each end of arms.

Actually, you want no more than 1" thread showing :)

I suspect your alignment is off, either side to side or in total. I have -1/2* camber, 0 toe and 3.5* caster and track very well.

I got 4 1/2, with 4" sleeves, and slightly more than 1" of thread showing.

I don't think it's aligned to the specs you asked for.

I'd bet the toe is way off.

Actually, you want no more than 1" thread showing :)


Thanks for catching that, Rick! I worded it wrong! Yes, no more than 1" showing. That's part of the reason I asked Mark for 6" sleeves...just to be sure I had even more threads engaged.

I got 4 1/2, with 4" sleeves, and slightly more than 1" of thread showing.

I don't think it's aligned to the specs you asked for.

His "kits" come standard with 4", I believe. In fact, not only did he say I was only the 2nd to request/need longer than 4", but I'm the first he ever sent 6" sleeves to :). Al, (BPOS) warned me about maybe needing them longer, but Mark initially talked me out of it when I ordered them. Sure enough, I needed longer sleeves. Even though each of our cars are different, it surprises me that only a few have reported needing longer than 4". And see, in Jim's case, the extra 1/2" even left him with more than 1" showing, and he didn't reach a full 5*. I wonder if Mark may be off on this a bit?

And I agree with Jim; Charlie's doesn't know what his local shop left him for numbers. In fact, when I first had mine aligned and went to pick it up, they were going to let me drive off without even telling me they couldn't attain the numbers I instructed them to hit. Yes, they gave me a "sheet" with the numbers (which is how I knew), but they didn't make a point to say, 'Hey...sorry, but we couldn't...". I made em' put it back on the rack, and this is when it was found it was impossible to achieve more than 2.7-2.8* of caster with 4" sleeves...without having to shim it....which you shouldn't have to do with adjustable, tubular arms! Mark shipped me the new sleeves the next day.

Mark did tell me a neat little trick. Once you have your street alignment, you can use shims for a track or autocross day then pull them out and be right back to your street settings.

First, I have been playing with them this morning and here is what I have gotten it to. I have decreased the Caster by turning the forward adjuster out. That has greatly helped the swaying. One thing I think we who have the SPC arms need to remember is, these arms actually do something to correct so to speak, the poor ball joint position. I think some call this, the Guldstrand mod? These are not just tubular control arms. SPC arms actually do something other than look good. Another thing, I only have between 9/16"-5/8" of thread showing. Now, after that, the only thing I am left with is tire squeal when I go around a corner. I know what you are going to say, turning too fast, right? No. When making an average speed turn, ok maybe a bit above average, I have tire squeal. Not too bad, but there. Again, I think this may be due to the new ball joint position. As far as high speed stability, the car i works very well now that I have done some playing.

In fact, the car seems to ride better now. Before the arms, every little bump would be very rough. Now the suspension seems to dampen much better. What do you guys think about what has gone on so far? The other thing is now the steering wheel is off a bit, but not much. I may get the alignment tools from Mark. What do you think?

RickD, that is a pretty good idea. No need for a new alignment everytime you go to track. Lock the street specs in and shim away for track. Nice.

Tire squeel thru easy corners?

Check the toe. You need 4 bungie cords, 2 straight pieces of anything, and a tape measure.

Jim m, do you think the toe may be too close to 0 or past 1/8"? The specs said for street performance set toe to 1/16".

I am going to PepBoys to find out exactly what specs they set the car to. I will post them after I get them.

Jim m, do you think the toe may be too close to 0 or past 1/8"? The specs said for street performance set toe to 1/16".

too much, a eigth or more, or possibly even toed out.

Well, I went to PepBoys and they couldn't tell me what specs they aligned my car to. They said they were in the green, but that is no help. Another thing they told me was they had another alignment come back because it was wrong. They re-aligned that car and it was still wrong. The guy told me that their machine took a crap on them in previous months. What should I do? I can take the car to another PepBoys, but I don't really want to. The next closest one is about 15-20 miles from my house and I don't want the tires to get screwed up. I have
any other "shops" around my house so I will probably take it to one of those. The guy said I had to talk to the service manager tomorrow about any type of refund. What I may do is take it to get it aligned somewhere else and then take the new receipt back to PepBoys so they don't think I am trying to get the alignment for free.

Jim M, I think you may be right about the toe. If I listen very carefully, I can here what sounds like tire rubbing as I am driving down the road. Also, if I stand back from the car, I can visually see the tires facing inwards. I would think that 1/8" or 1/16" toe in should not be visible to the naked eye. That little of a measurement should only be visible to the alignment machine. What do you think?

I think you have incorrect toe, off a lot, could be either direction. With the amount of bumpsteer in these cars, that would make it "darty."
It would also affect turning, making the tires squeel.

It's easy enough to check. A couple of long straightedges and a tape measure. If you have a helper, you could even hold em against the tires, and pass the tape under the car. I use a peice of square alluminum I bought at a hardware store and cut to 2 ft lengths, and bungie em to the tire. I marked the center, and one foot out front and back, and measure at those marks.

Make sure the car is on a level surface and the wheels pointed straight ahead, as in drive in a straight line and stop.

Instead of relying on someone else...

http://www.carcraft.com/howto/48938/index.html

or better yet...

http://www.longacreracing.com/catalog/item.asp?id=131&catid=5

I use a tool similar to the one in the car craft link for caster and camber, Mark @ SC&C sells it.

Bret, do you own one of those Longacre Guages? If so, how does it work?

One thing I have to admit here. I have always been under the assumption that the upper ball joint always sat further forward than the lower joint, but now after reading these articles, I see that the upper joint is actually further rearward than the lower. I guess this is why when I thought I was decreasing positive Caster today and the car was driving better, I was actually increasing it.

Well, I went to PepBoys and they couldn't tell me what specs they aligned my car to. They said they were in the green, but that is no help.Unless they typed your specs in, then green for a 67 is not the specs you listed. The factory specs are in those machines.

Next time ask for a print out. And maybe find a better place then pep boys.

I went to three different places. It was a Saturday and everyone was busy. I had to have my car so I could take my son to school on Monday. I am going to get my money back and go somewhere else. There just aren't any places around me that do aftermarket stuff. Every place I go look at me like I have three heads when I tell them I have aftermarket control arms and want particular specs entered. There is only one performance shop around me and I am pretty sure they don't do alignments.

I think I am going to get a tool like Bret listed or the one that Mark sells and start doing them myself. The only thing with the toe is, how do you get around the headers and the oil pan to get an accurate reading? I am guessing you don't have to take the reading exactly at middle of the rear of the tire? Can the reading be taken at the lower part of both the front and rear of the tire?

I've had my vert to 2 different shops for alingment over the years.
Both were independant full service repair shops. Stay away from PepBoys, AND the big tire stores. They have no time for us.

In both cases, I told them I'd provide the alignment specs for them to use, AND I insisted on being in the shop when it was done.
In both cases, they told me they'd be glad to do it, BUT they would bill me at thier hourly service rate rather than thier flat rate alignment charge.

Both took several hours to get it right while I watched and kibutzed.

As pictures are worth a thousand words, here's my first experience with at-home wheel alignment: http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=104523&highlight=alignment+caster+camber

I'm with Jim. I do my own after buying the tool from Mark. I did go to a local place once to have my results validated and it was fine.

I'm with Jim.

Yep. I was lucky to have taken mine to a new local shop that's less than 1 mile from home. They have state of the art equip, and had no problem with me hanging out with the guy doing the alignment. And this was a good thing, as we ended up calling Mark Savitske during the alignment after realizing the 4" sleeves were too short. Nothing better than having your shop guy talk to the guy who actually helped design the arms :).

Here is the latest results. I just got back from PepBoys and they put it on the rack again. I watched the guy type in my specs, but when it was finished he told me that no matter what he did, Caster would not change.

Here is what the paper reads that I got. The tech couldn't even explain it to me:

Caster Initial:
Left: -1.1*
Right: 0.2*

Specifications:
Min: 4.0*
Max: 4.5*

Final:
Left: -0.7*
Right: -0.2*

Camber Initial:
Left: 0.2*
Right: 0.3*

Specifications:
Min: 0.0*
Max: 0.2*

Final:
Left: 0.2*
Right: 0.1*

Toe Initial:
Total: 0.85*
Left: 0.25*
Right: .060*

Specifications:
Min: 0.12*
Max: 0.14*

Final:
Total: 0.10*
Left: 0.05*
Right: 0.05*

What does everyone have to say about these specs?

even with your typo's on the initial toe (could you check that please, the numbers don't add up?) it looks like the toe was your main problem.

I simply do not understand the caster. With the SC&C upper arms, you gotta bunch of adjustment. I could move the upper balljoint nearly 2" fore and aft on mine (though most of that was in the wrong direction...lol)

I ended up with 4 1/2 degree positive caster, with 4" sleeves, slightly more than 1" of thread showing on the front sleeve, and 1 thick shim under the front (EDIT: REAR) crossbar bolt, same on both sides.

Here is the latest results. The tech couldn't even explain it to me:Scary thought when the tech can't explain what he's doing, kindda like the gov't not answering the phone call you make to them.

I ended up with 4 1/2 degree positive caster, with 4" sleeves, slightly more than 1" of thread showing on the front sleeve, and 1 thick shim under the front crossbar bolt, same on both sides.

Aha! The truth comes out :D. But even with shimming I'm still surprised you could get 4.5* with 4" sleeves. Maybe it's 68' vs. 69'?

And Charlie, do you have the tall upper ball joints? I didn't see if you mentioned this.

Scary thought when the tech can't explain what he's doing, kindda like the gov't not answering the phone call you make to them.

Agreed. In fact, I'd say that judging from those numbers...those guys don't have a friggin' clue as to what they're doing. They even made the camber worse than what it was when you brought it in. And they ended up with negative caster? That's ridiculous. I had some positive caster with my stock arms to begin with (don't recall how much).

Whops, Jim Made a TYPO!
or rather a brain fart.

My shim is udner the REAR crossbar bolt. This is needed with the guldstrand mod to get the crossbar off the angle portion of the mounting bracket so it can sit flat.

Jim M, Everything I typed was EXACTLY how I read it off of their paper.

Kevin, yes I do have tall upper ball joints. Also, I think you may be right about needing a longer adjuster sleeve to start with. The Caster specs I now have are the MAX they could give me without more than an inch of thread showing.

I just got back from another alignment at a good shop. The car is BEAUTIFUL. They gave me two printouts and said the car was actually driving with negative Caster to start. They set the Caster to +3.90* and +3.99*. They also said the toe was set to 1+ inches total toed in. The car has EXCELLENT return to center now and track straight as an arrow. I don't have to have my hand on the wheel AT ALL. Camber was +.02* on one side and -.05* on the other side.

What can I say?? Don't go to Pepboys.

Jim M, let me assure you that what you read was precisely how I read it from their printout. The guys that FINALLY got it right couldn't believe how far off it was.

Kevin, yes I do have tall upper ball joints. Also, I think you may be right about needing a longer adjuster sleeve to start with. The Caster specs I now have are the MAX they could give me without more than an inch of thread showing.

I just got back from another alignment at a good shop. The car is BEAUTIFUL. They gave me two printouts and said the car was actually driving with negative Caster to start. They set the Caster to +3.90* and +3.99*. They also said the toe was set to 1+ inches total toed in. The car has EXCELLENT return to center now and track straight as an arrow. I don't have to have my hand on the wheel AT ALL. Camber was +.02* on one side and -.05* on the other side.

What can I say?? Don't go to Pepboys.

Jim M, let me assure you that what you read was precisely how I read it from their printout. The guys that FINALLY got it right couldn't believe how far off it was.

Just as I previously commented, the other guys (PepBoys) had no clue. And I couldn't believe how far off it was either! I would suggest trying to get at least 4.5*, if not, 5*...but I realize this would require new sleeves. Mark might send them to you for just shipping (he did for me, but it was because he talked me out of getting them to start with! :)). The cheap/basic sleeves, which is what I have, don't cost squat anyway. I'm glad you're finally experiencing what it should feel like to drive it. Another 1 to 2.5* will be even better. Amazing, isn't it?:thumbsup:

You should not have this much trouble getting an alignment. This shocked me:

Caster Initial:
Left: -1.1*
Right: 0.2*

Specifications:
Min: 4.0*
Max: 4.5*

Final:
Left: -0.7*
Right: -0.2*

Not close to the specs given!

Glad it is resolved. This is why I remain on good term swith the old shop. I did my own on the 77. With those arms & tall joints, I am close to 6* caster. Car drives like a dream.

Scott, you said you are close to 6* Caster. Did you have to get new adjusters? Right now I am at 3.90* and 3.99* and that is the MAX.

Kevin, The car drives like a DREAM. I barely have to touch the wheel at all to get it to go straight after a turn. The car drives straight as an arrow. The car is also very responsive. What would 1* or 1.5* more do?

Another thing I have noticed. I had frozen passenger side upper control arm bushings and every little bump made it feel like the car was going to fall apart. The ride is much smoother now, but I think once I get Mark's lowers and coil overs for the front and the G-Bar for the rear, the car will ride like a 08.

I am definately going to stick with these guys for anything pertaining to alignments from now on. I could get the do it yourself tools from Mark or the unit that screws onto the spindle shaft, but the time it takes to get it right would not be worth the money to take it to someone who I am very confident with now. I have great trust in their ability to get my car aligned. I went back to PepBoys after I got finished and got my money back. The funny thing is that when I was there the first time(well actually the second time) the service manager didn't want to believe me when I said something was wrong. Even one of her own techs said another car came back and they re-aligned that car and it was still wrong. When I went back, she didn't even talk to me except to tell me which register to go to. Lesson learned. PepBoys is good for wax and wash supplies, but nothing major. I did get a set of tires there at a good price for my Roadmaster. No problems there, but for anything Classic, forget it. You know the oldest Camaro they had in the alignment machine was a 93 and the guy couldn't even convert 1/8" or 1/16" to decimal form to type into the machine? I had to convert it for him. Thanks for all the help and listening to my woes.

One last thing. Mark has lower control arms on the way. Am I safe in saying that lowers will not affect the alignment? They are not adjustable. I am going with his lowers, Varishock coil overs, and the G-Bar for the rear, which comes with coil overs also.

Scott, you said you are close to 6* Caster. Did you have to get new adjusters? Right now I am at 3.90* and 3.99* and that is the MAX.

You know the oldest Camaro they had in the alignment machine was a 93 and the guy couldn't even convert 1/8" or 1/16" to decimal form to type into the machine? I had to convert it for him. Thanks for all the help and listening to my woes.
Yeah. In fact, I rolled into the shop close at close to 8*, but anything > 6* pushed the camber too far negative. This was my 2nd gen, and I used 5” sleeves, that I’m sure that accounts for the differences.

Their machine couldn’t convert the toe numbers? They just don’t know how to use it, or it is a real POS machine. Same for the specs.

I think you hit it on the head when you said their machine was a POS. It looked very old.

"What would 1* or 1.5* more do?"

You wouldn't feel the difference. Perhaps less self-return. The extra caster helps keep the tire flat in sharp corners, like some autocrosses.
David