Hello all. I'm about the poorest person to ever be on this site. I have a 69 Camaro and I'm at the crossroads of what to do with my suspension. I bought polyuerethane bushings, bilstein shocks,& new coils (shocks & coils were from guldstrand eng., bought about 10 years ago and just sitting). I was wondering what would be a way to correct the geometry of the suspension in a reasonable manner. I have the guldstrand mod template, but I've also heard the Howe tall upper ball joints work. Is either one of these mods "better" than the other? How much improvement is gained by doing these mods as compared to "functional" uca's? And if David Pozzi is reading this and wants to adopt a 30 year old son, let me know.

Thanks to everyone in advance. Your brains are appreciated.

Maybe Mark from SC&C will chime in..

Mark, where you at??

David, you too??

pdq67

the g-mod is free, but if you have a hang-up about drilling your frame, i think the best 'bang for the buck' is the scandc.com stage 2 plus. the uppers are cheaper than the tubular, and don't require shims to align. but if you get this package, it would be a shame not to get the matching howe precision lower ball joints (about 80 bucks each) and some solid lca bushings (about 150 buck for a set). with all of this, i think you'll be looking forward to any curve you can find! as for one being better, it depends on your end use. racing only would make you have a dramatic static alignment with a more dramatic negative camber gain. street use would have a static alignment that won't eat your tires too quick, and any reduction in positive camber gain (which first gen's unfortunately have alot of) would be a vast improvement. i personally think it's a great investment. i'm doing all i can not to drop the cash to put this stuff on my 'bird (cuz i don't really want to build the same car twice)! don't worry, marcus, you'll be getting another call soon!

Is there a reason the sc&c uppers are less expensive than the tubulars? Is it just takes less manufacturing/tooling to make them? Do they have the same camber/caster charicteristics? I'll do my research but it sure is nice to hear it 3rd person, from real people who have done this before.

Thanks again guys.

Is there a reason the sc&c uppers are less expensive than the tubulars? Is it just takes less manufacturing/tooling to make them? Do they have the same camber/caster charicteristics? I'll do my research but it sure is nice to hear it 3rd person, from real people who have done this before.

Thanks again guys.

I'm not sure why John said, "..the uppers are cheaper than the tubular" because the uppers I bought from SC&C are tubular, and I didn't get the Stage 2 package. And no shims are required, as is the prupose of buying adjustable UCAs :). There are differences between the adjusting sleeves, as I chose the less expensive gold colored steel sleeves over the more expensive (and cool looking) aluminum sleeves. They also come in different lengths, with 4" being standard. I would advise requesting 5" sleeves just to be safe.

As far as replacing the LCA and buying the lower ball joints from SC&C; You don't need to buy taller lowers if you for instance, you drop the front only 1", as I did. And your current stock LCA will be just fine as is (might want to replace bushings). I did 1" drop springs and went with the Howe Tall upper BJs to help attain the caster/camber specs that are optimal.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the G-mod still requires at least, the tall upper BJs to achieve around 5* caster and -.5* camber. I think JimM (mod here) did the G-mod, so maybe he'll jump in here.

And again, if you were to drop your front end 2", you might want to get SC&C's lower ball joints....but I still don't think you have to to achieve spec. To be sure, call and talk to Mark @ scandc.com

i woundn't call them 'tubular'. tubular to me means tubular steel that is welded. the spc arms are modular, with a tie rod sleeve. that's how i would describe them, not tubular...

i woundn't call them 'tubular'. tubular to me means tubular steel that is welded. the spc arms are modular, with a tie rod sleeve. that's how i would describe them, not tubular...

Ah, I see. Semantics to me, I suppose :). The sleeves are tube shaped and hollow...and attach to preformed hollow steel that is also tube shaped. But yeah, I can see what you're saying, John :thumbsup:

Cylindrical maybe? JK. Thanks for the help guys. This is valuable information that might have to be put on the back burner. I just spotted a 1972 Nova that might have a 12 bolt. Waiting on a call from the owner. Thanks again dudes.

If an 8.5 was installed in a Nova in '72, grab it.

pdq67

Cencal69,
Have you installed the parts you bought 10 years ago?

What are your goals for the car?
Street, Track, Autocross?
Will you have wide tires?

I would prefer rubber or Delrin bushings. If you really want those poly bushings, then figure out a way to install grease fittings in them.

There are cheaper circle track delrin bushings available from Afco, they are listed as "Lightweight" I haven't seen uppers listed, just lowers, but steel are listed for the uppers.

I'd do the Guldstrand mod, and skip custom arms unless you have the money. You'll get around 3+ caster, which isn't perfect, but you probably wouldn't notice the difference unless you autocross with huge tires like a C prepared car would.
Go hang out with Rick Quinones in Fresno, he's a terriffic long-time Camaro autocrosser! I used to run at the Fresno Fair Grounds with my 67.
David

I've gradually reworked my suspension over the years, it's in it's third or fourth incarnation now.

The Guldstrand mod and the tall upper ball joints do the same thing, they alter the camber curve (the angle change of the front tire from verticle as the suspension compresses) to keep the outside front tire firmly in contact with the ground in a turn.


You want one or the other of these mods, both together would be too much.

I did the guldstrand mod years ago, using stock a arms and stock moog ball joints.
As David saud, I was able to get 3 degrees of caster. This and the big adco sway bar made a huge difference in the handling of the car.

Thanks guys. I'm gonna be like most others on here. I'll be using it as a "spirited" street car. I really like to take corners, and I like to get a good "feel back" from the car. I've gotten a new route to choose now, and I appreciate the information. The Nova didn't have the 8.5 rear end, so now I can focus on the suspension. Although I found myself working on my father-in law's 1970 240Z. All stock, and has sat for the last 20 years garaged. He has got inspiration from me working on the Camaro, which I have gotten inspiration from this site. It all trickles downhill.

Do the 3rd gen steering box swap, it really makes the car feel nice. I placed a sticky at the top of this forum section on it. http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=103139 You need a steering coupler from a lae 70's early 80's car or truck to fit the box, and your Camaro. You need hose port adapters that are listed in that thread.
David

Dave,
I wish I'd discovered that before I bought my quick ratio PS gearbox from a 1st gen...

Jim

The SPC arms(SC&C)actually correct the ball joint geometry. Most if not every other tubular control arm for the 1st gens do nothing more than look good. Most every other tubular control arm also weighs more than your stock control arm, not to mention the fact that you still have to use those ugly shims to adjust camber and caster. With the SPC arms simply turn the adjuster sleeve to the appropriate setting and lock them down. Just like adjusting a tie rod assembly. I have the SPC upper arms and the Howe tall, Nascar style, screw in, rebuildable upper ball joints and even with the 4" sleeves I was able to get 3.99* of positive caster. The car corners like a dream. I was thinking of getting the 5" sleeves, but mine got a few scratches on them when they were aligning the car and Mark was going to charge me to make the swap so I will be sticking with the 4" pieces. I am going to get the SC&C lower control arms as well. The also do alot for correcting the 1st gen geometry. Along with the rebuildable, Nascar style, screw in lower ball joints. The lower control arms have indexable spring pockets and for anyone who cut their springs to lower the car, they would be able to get the spring to seat properly. Mark also told me some horrible things about the QA-1 coil overs that I am glad I found out before I purchased them. He's had people buy them and install them and then park the car and never drive it because the ride is terrible. He said they weren't true coil overs. I forget why he said that, but he will be more than glad to talk to anyone and inform you as he did me. I am still debating whether or not I need to be able to continuously adjust my ride height. How many times will I actually need to adjust it? Once it's set, I will leave it. I don't go to the track. Well, maybe I will, but lowering springs, the SC&C upper and lower arms, and the Howe upper and lower ball joints will be more than enough to enjoy a day at the track, if I ever go. I don't even know where a road race course is around the Baltimore area.

Thanks 67CamaroRS/SS and David Pozzi,
Believe me, I have been reading the sticky on the 3rd gen steering box and am all over it. I have some trade coming due from a parts guy, and have all the Cardone part numbers and such written down. I will be asking a few questions that I have in mind when the time's right, and you guys are very generous with your time and knowledge. As soon as the weather warms up a bit (and yes, I'm in California) I'm gonna hit it hard.
David, is there a reason the poly bushings aren't recomended? Sould I use the delrin bushings on the A arms only (not sure if they only make them for the A-arms)?

BTW, tomorrow we're gonna try to fire up my father in laws' 1970 240Z for the first time in 20 years. I put marvels mystery oil in the spark plug holes, then rotated the crankshaft.Changed the oil. Used carb cleaner on the carbs. Flushed the radiator. Changed the plugs. Got a new battery (cleaned the terminals to the starter/sylenoid). We've got a can of starting fluid. Any steps I missed? Should I keep my eyes peeled for anything?

Thanks again guys.

Keep a fire extinguisher or two handy when you start her up! Make sure all fuel hoses are good. A full standard extinguisher lasts about 10 seconds, -not a lot.

They are fine on anti-roll bars, but they are sticky for A arms and make the suspension act stiffer due to the added friction. Lube certainly helps, but after they are in for a while, the grease squishes out. They are not bad when new, the polly graphite are probably the best. I'd rather use rubber or the Delrin type.
David

The SPC arms(SC&C)actually correct the Mark also told me some horrible things about the QA-1 coil overs that I am glad I found out before I purchased them. He's had people buy them and install them and then park the car and never drive it because the ride is terrible. He said they weren't true coil overs. I forget why he said that, but he will be more than glad to talk to anyone and inform you as he did me. .

Who is Mark and how do I contact him? I can't imagine someone parking their car and not driving it anymore cause I've heard others on this forum say they love them and are very happy with the ride. Not trying to stir up trouble but just would like to know more about what he has to say about why they don't ride well, etc.