You all were such a great help with my 4053 I have another question.

This old tired 302 has horribly low compression. I mean really low between 100 - 110 in all 8 holes. well for years I just discounted it as being really wore out as that is how it always ran anyway. I while back I went ahead and did a leak down on 2 cylinders on each side and to my suprize they were sealed up pretty darn good considering, and were only leaking 15% or so if I remember right. :confused: this doesn't make add up to me. I figure with the super low compression it has it would have crazy blow by, which it doesn't. The leak down test would have shown it leaking like 60% or something stupid like that but it is in not. So here is my crazy idea as what is wrong with it.

The orginal owner told me they were into the 302. I suspect they didnt get the timing marks lined up while changing the timing chain. Just guessing mabey it's off & retarded by a tooth???

What do you all think? Is this crazy idea of mine even remotely possible? i have ran this by a few freinds and they think I am nuts :yes: but I still feel like things dont just add up. I could see if I had a 1 or 2 cylinders that were low there being a problem like head gasket, burnt valve etc... But since evey single cylinder is low there has to be something else going on.

I believe this 302 should have 190 per the books I have read and I know I might loose a little from 5500' of altitude we live at but just for the heck of it I checked a cylinder in my 66 Gt Rustang and it was @ 185.


So am I nuts and don't know what I am talking about or is my crazy therory(sp) possible? I hate to tear into it if I am way off base here.

Thanks in adavance,
:beers:

It's possible. I would rather pull the timing cover off than the heads. If you are determined to fix the low compression I would assume the engine is coming out. Nothing to lose by first pulling the damper and the cover just to see if indeed the cam timing is off or right where it is supposed to be.

BTW, does the compression improve after you squirt some oil into the cylinder thru the spark plug hole? If it doesn't that means it is valves not rings.

Are there any other tricks someone knows to see if the cam timing is right without pulling the cover?

alan

Did you have the throttle propped open when you did the test. 190 is a pretty high expecation for a stock motor. 160 to 170 is about the best I've seen on a stock V8. Cam timing plays a huge role, so cam timing could affect your results. You said you did a leak-down on 2 cylinders...what about the other 6. A leak down test is a good health check - it will show problems where a static compression test does not. If you're looking for a less intrusive way of verifying the cam timing, put some degree tape on the balancer and a dial guage on #1 intake. See if your results match up with the cam specs.

Others could better answer what the compression test should read on a stock 302, but 110 seems VERYVERY low. I would expect a "premium gas only" engine to crank 180 at least.

Are you sure the motor is stock inside? Correct heads, and pistons?
I don't think the cam could be off a tooth, tho everything is worth checking.

I agree with dnult on the degree tape or wheel.

Sounds to me like it has flat top pistons or dish, and big cc heads though. Does it come to life at higher RPM?

Had a little 305 once that I stuck a 350 head on one side to get a truck running. Had 150# on the 305 head and 125# on the 350 head. You'll lose about 10+ # due to your altitude on a compression test. If you had consistent compression and the leak down didn't show anything scary, then squirting oil in the cylinder won't show you much.

1 tooth on the cam to crank gear orientation would cause the cam to be out about 20° from the cam card. You are looking for an intake valve opening event somewhere between 30 and 10° BTC. You could probly just roll the engine by hand w/ the LB VC off and observe when 1 intake barely moves, look at the balancer. Also UDHarold has this trick

Jul 13th, 07, 5:25 AM
UDHarold (http://www.chevelles.com/forums/member.php?u=12507) http://www.chevelles.com/forums/olp/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif
Senior Tech Team

Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Senatobia, MS, USA
Posts: 2,091


http://www.chevelles.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: new cam, cars not happy under 2k
I recommend my 'Quick & Dirty' method for verifying that the cam was installed correctly. The reason being, IF the cam is installed even slightly retarded, one of the obvious indications is that the engine takes more timing to run right, and there is a lock of bottom-end power and response.
You have this, so it is worth checking it out.
You only have to remove a valve cover.
Turn the engine up to TDC, and look at #1 cylinder's valves.
If BOTH valves are closed, you need to turn the engine one more turn so that both valves are off the seat at TDC.
Check the heights of the top of the retainers to the spring seats. The intake valve should be .030" to .060" CLOSER to the head. If the exhaust valve is closer, the cam is retarded and you have to take off the front cover and install the cam correctly.
The most common problem is that you have lined up the keyway with the dot on the keyway. The correct mark is on a tooth a couple of teeth counter-clockwise from the keyway. The cam does not have to be taken out to fix this problem.
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http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1421138&highlight=quick+dirty#post1421138

dnult,

Yes the throttle was wide open, I actually did2 cylinders on each side and all 4 were with in 10lbs of each other. I started to pull the front apart this evening and was going toput my degree wheel on the balancer and a piston stop in the spark plug hole. Find TDC and then put a dail indicator on the # 1 intake valve but the damn wheel wont clear the water pump. since I am going to have to drain the coolent I think I will just go ahead & pull the cover and look as it will be easier in the long run.

JimM,

I totaly agree with it being extremely low. It does have the corect 186 64 cc heads as for the pistons I cant say for sure as I have never opened it up. The original owner told me his father in law had rebuilt it for him many years ago so it's possible he put flat topsin it.


77wolf10.85,

You know I cant really say on the pistons but my old Blue 69 I swaped my spare set of 186s onto the flat top 350 that was in it and it had 170-180 compression with those heads and a Comp 276 extreme energy hyd cam.
The car basicly has no bottom end but I have to blame part of that on being a 302 with a m-21 and 3.73 gears. Truth be told it starts pulling at just over 4k but really comes on above 5k rpm.
It's been so many years since I had my last 69 Z/28 that still had a 302 in it I cant hardly remeber what it is suposed to run like.:D in the ten years I have owned this car it has been a the biggest slug ever to drive. I allways just thought I would freshen it up but all these years later I really havent done anything with it. I allways had other Camaros at the same time that ran hard so this was never a priority.

Thanks all for your help

And post back the head numbers too!

The heads should be -186's if I remember right that should be about 66 cc's.

A stock Z-28 is right at 11 to 1 CR'd so if you have a pair of 76 cc smog heads on it, you will be low!!

People have been known to switch out heads before.

pdq67

And post back the head numbers too!

The heads should be -186's if I remember right that should be about 66 cc's.

A stock Z-28 is right at 11 to 1 CR'd so if you have a pair of 76 cc smog heads on it, you will be low!!

People have been known to switch out heads before.

pdq67

Heads are original 186s.

Well I am back to plan A. I broke my balancer remover tring to remove the damn balancer so for tonight I will just put the degree wheel on the balancer and see what I can come up with.

Stay tuned...

Hmm, if you can somehow get access to a boroscope, you could actually see inside the cylinder thru the plug hole and see if you have the correct pistons (domed). I realize this is a longshot but there it is. Are you friends with any aviation types? The boroscope is used to inspect jet engines without having to tear them down.

alan

Ok I put the degree wheel on and used a piston stop to find TDC. I then used a dial indicator on the #1 intake rocker and it seems the intake valve is not completely closed at TDC. Infact I go 50 degrees on the the degree wheel past TDC before the valve is completely closed and on the base circle.:confused: The cam has to be way retarded in this thing. When the intake valve is finally closed the timing marks are off by about 3 1/2"s. Oh and I checked the mark on the balacer and it is almost dead on mabey off by 1 degree.

Something is up with the way the cam is degreeed in. I have to go out of town tomorow morning but as soon as I get back I will gho buy another balacer tool and get this thing apart.

from 77wolfs post..
Turn the engine up to TDC, and look at #1 cylinder's valves.
If BOTH valves are closed, you need to turn the engine one more turn so that both valves are off the seat at TDC.
Check the heights of the top of the retainers to the spring seats. The intake valve should be .030" to .060" CLOSER to the head. If the exhaust valve is closer, the cam is retarded and you have to take off the front cover and install the cam correctly.
The most common problem is that you have lined up the keyway with the dot on the keyway. The correct mark is on a tooth a couple of teeth counter-clockwise from the keyway. The cam does not have to be taken out to fix this problem.



Ok I went back out there and went back TDC. I then rotated the engine 1 revolution back to the same place on the degree wheel TDC was. The exhaust valve is definatly open farther.

If I understand hispost this should confirm my suspition that the cam is set up way off or off a tooth.

does this sound right?

Well, you stated earlier that the car has been less than spectacular for 10 years. It would be great if it was off and correcting allowed the engine to go to it's full potential. That beats the daylights out of a rebuild no?

;)

alan

Others could better answer what the compression test should read on a stock 302, but 110 seems VERYVERY low. I would expect a "premium gas only" engine to crank 180 at least.

Are you sure the motor is stock inside? Correct heads, and pistons?
I don't think the cam could be off a tooth, tho everything is worth checking.

You lose about 3-4% of your cranking compression for every 1000' of elevation. The engine that cranks 180# at sea level will crank 140-150# at 5500'.

You lose about 3-4% of your cranking compression for every 1000' of elevation. The engine that cranks 180# at sea level will crank 140-150# at 5500'.


Wow ,
My 66 GT 289 Mustang has 185 of compression here at 5500' so I guess it would be well over 200 @ sea level.

The books all say 190 on the stock 302 so for a 11-1 motor I dont see it being to far from that even here at my altitude also considering the cam.

I am anxious to get back on this thing as soon as we get back.

anyone have any thoughts on what I came up with last night with the dial indicator?

Thanks

Well, if Tim (77wolf) is correct

The intake valve should be .030" to .060" CLOSER to the head. If the exhaust valve is closer, the cam is retarded

and your exhaust is opening early then according to Tim the cam is retarded. It sure sounds like the best bet at this time. Remember, the leakdown test was pretty good which means the rings and valves are pretty much doing their job. Plus, all this will cost you is a new harmonic balance puller and a timing chain cover gasket.

Let us know what you find.

alan

Make sure the thick washer is off the balancer before you try to pull it off AND use a "Y" balancer puller tool and NOT a jaw gear puller!

pdq67

Is the Y balancer puller the one that bolts to the dampner and uses a screw/bolt to push off of the crank nose? Those seem to work really well. They also work in reverse to push the balancer back onto the crank snout. It's all about the tools.

alan

Yes, and you can get a puller and full bolt kit from old HFT cheap.. It's not pro stuff, but it should do for the occasional use like I use mine.

And don't forget about the big washer!

I bought two long Grade-8 bolts to use as pushers.

7/16" UNF x 5" or 6"(??) for SB's and 1/2" UNF x 5" or 6" (??) for BB's. I just had to thread them up to the heads is all. Work great!

They as well as my althread a-arm and leaf spring bushing squeezers are in my tool box now along w/ two headless bolts I use to help me install my Muncie.

Stuff is "shade-tree" as all git-out, BUT they sure work good for the money!

Tell me the ol' man ain't CHEAP!!! He, He!!

pdq67

PS., if you don't have access to the needed UNF dies, you can remove the heads and use UNC dies down to the UNF threads and this will do fine.

I comp tested my new 302 this summer....ran 192-200 on all 8...stock -186 heads and proper 11:1 slugs......

Update..

I got back early this afternoon with a new puller and got the balancer off. Next pulled the timing chain cover off that was dated 69 4 1 by the way :D and you will never guess what I found.

Drum roll..... ;)

http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o70/x77d80/HPIM1286.jpg

Looks like I am not nuts after all:D The father in law of the original owner muast have had 1 too many cold ones the day he put the timing chain on. :yes:

I went ahead and moved the cam back in line with the crank gear and put the chain back on. Just for giggles I spun the motor over a few time with the compression gauge on # 1. The car battery was almost dead and wouldn't turn it over very fast But I still got just a hair under 160 with the motor stone cold. :hurray::hurray: I figure when it's up to temp it will be around 170 - 175.
This thing should run like a raped ape :yes::D

I look forward to getting it all buttoned back up here in the next day or so. my wife has a long list of honey do's for tomorrow so I probably wont get to work on it tomorrow.

Thanks again for eveyones help,
:beers:

well it was KINDA close! HA HA.....yeah....that should run ALOT better....

Beats the living daylights out of "rebuilding my tired 302", no? Congrats, well done, you have had quite a week. What's on tap for next week?

Never give up, never quit.

alan

Beats the living daylights out of "rebuilding my tired 302", no? Congrats, well done, you have had quite a week. What's on tap for next week?

Never give up, never quit.

alan

Thanks,
Next the distributor will go to Eric for the full treatment. :D I cant hardly wait to button this thing back up and go drive it. :yes: Should be much more fun to drive now.

I droped the oil pan while I was at it and everything looks like like it should. Looks to have the correct rods, 4 bolt main block with the windage tray, correct 7708 balancer, correct pulleys, correct dated water pump etc...
The only thing I can't confirm is the pistons since I haven't pulled the heads.

Nick;
Looks like you're narrowing down the issues. Eric will get that distributor ready to go for you. I did my own, but hey I found a distributor machine too. Its pretty tough to tune the dizzy on the car. Lots of adjustments vs one time on the dizzy machine. Eric what spring kit do you use typically for a 480 dist? Silver medium springs from a accell kit?

Todd

"Looks like I am not nuts after all The father in law of the original owner muast have had 1 too many cold ones the day he put the timing chain on. "

I figure the old man detuned it ta keep his Daughter SAFE is what happened!

He, He!!

I dated a girl way back then whose Dad wouldn't let her ride w/ me, only to find out later her Dad was the biggest womanizer in Macon, MO back then!!

And she was the niece of my long gone Blacksmith Buddy's wife!!

At our last HS Class Reunion, I found out that she was married to my Classmate and I pulled her aside and told her just how much her Aunt and Uncle meant to me after Dad died and she knew full well.

Time the sucker spot-on and if you want to, throw a degree wheel and dial gage on her to make sure she's timed right and GO!!

pdq67

:thumbsup:

Update...

I buttoned everything up on Tuesday evening and fired it back up, The car sounds great much more reponsive and almost 8" of vacumn now. The bad news is I had one heck of an oil leak with the front seal between the pan and timing chain cover.:mad: Oh and I did replace the thin seal that was in it with the same thin seal when it went back together. :)

Last night I went back out there and droped the front of the pan and put a bead of silicone between the seal and the pan hoping this would stop the leak. I waited untill and hour ago to fire it back up as I wanted it completly dry before I tried it again. Well just my luck, it still has a small drip.:mad::mad: I have yet to drive the car as I dont want an oily mess under the car but it sure sounds good.

New plan is to wait untill this weekend and pull the pan back loose and go with another new gasket set. I am thinking maybe even jack up the engine this time so I can get the pan completly off and go with a one pice gasket.
I am kind of undesided on that as of yet.

we are supposed to get rain / snow again tonight or tomorrow so I wont be able to drive it till next week anyway. :(

So as of now I caint really say what it will run like exactly but again it sure sounds good.

onovakind67,

Oh and by the way you hit the compression right on the nose. after warming it up it has right at 145-150 in all the cyclinders I checked. I honestly dont know why I got almost 160 that night I had it apart unless in my joy of finding the timing chain problem I missread the gauge.:confused: I did do a leakdown on the driver side and they averaged about 12-15% not great but I have seen much worse. :yes:

:beers:

Well, would you believe nobody around town this evening has a Felpro set of oil pan gaskets for a 302.:sad: Autozone & Checker auto had some off brands but I hate to use anything but Felpro.

I would really like to get this finished up tomorrow or Sunday. Have any of you had any luck with those off brand gaskets? I hate to have to do this again for the third time if I use them and it leaks again.

Thanks,

Why didn't you ask for 350 engine one's???

pdq67

Why didn't you ask for 350 engine one's???

pdq67

PDQ,

Surely it's the same part # so I don't think it would matter.

Update...

I was able to find a set of Felpro gaskets and I dropped and resealed the pan. Looks to have solved the oil leak. While I was at it, I went ahead and installed the pertronix kit I bought in my original 480 distributer. The weather was pretty nice so I dug it and drove it.

All I can say is WOW what a differance. The car runs really nice and was still pulling strong when I lifted @ 6800 rpm. :yes:

It finally feels like a Z/28 and not some old tired grocery getter.;)

Now for the bad news well kinda;) I dug out my 66 GT Mustang and drove it for kind of a comparison. The car has a fairly stout 289 4-speed with just 3.25 gears. I am still sorry to say I wont be grudge racing my stang with the Z quite yet. :o The 289 has a small little ford motorsport cam, 351 Windsor heads and pulls like gang busters from about 1500 to 6000rpm. The little car is pretty quick. Years ago when my Dad owned it I took down more than one big block Goat or Chevelle with this thing as the other cars were going up in smoke while this little thing was flat gone. :yes:

My goal is to get this Z/28 to pull as strong as the 289 does. I know they are apples and oranges as the combos are completely differant. My Z is for the most part 100% stock. and the mustang has Try Y headers with a nice free flowing exhaust among the other things.

I will not pull the manifolds and I do really like my repro transverse exhaust. I know these are probably killing the performance but I love the stock look. I still plan to send my distributer off to Eric to be rebuilt & recurved which should hopefully help some. Any other ideas or recommendations on what I should do to this thing? The one stipulation is, it has to retain all the factory components.

As always, thanks to all for your help
:beers:

Try Thorleys with the transverse muffler. It you get the timing right you just might be surprised. I can't believe that a 302 can't walk away from a 289. ;)

Thorley TriY and the 17104K transverse from Flowmaster should do the trick. Remember now the 289 will come on strong but you need some deep gears to make the 302 sing. Try 4.56 or 4.88.

Try Thorleys with the transverse muffler. It you get the timing right you just might be surprised. I can't believe that a 302 can't walk away from a 289. ;)

Gary,

You know I am a little suprized also. You know it's all about the total combo and in all fairness the the Mustang is dialed in pretty darn good. my Dad was the Ford guy and I was always the chevy guy. He tried to build this car to run against my 68 SS/RS 396. It was built with 12.5 -1's ported 69 351 windor heads, the motorsprt cam ported Fb4 intake full MSD ignition 650 DP holley etc... so it's not your run of the mill 289, thats kind of where my apples to oranges comment came from.:D I inherited this car a 2 years ago but am very framilar with it as he had owned it since 78 or so. It is and will be the only Blue oval in my garage but it is a very special car to me for ovious reasons.

I have just in the last couple of weeks started to try and work out some of teh issues with the Z/28 and with the help of a great bunch of guys here on TC, the car is worlds better that is has been for the last 10 years. :yes::hurray: I feel like if I stay with it I will get it worked out and running like a 69 Z/28 should.:D

Thanks again

Update...

I bought a Moroso curve kit for like 8.00 so I thought I would try and curve it myself. I disassembeled it and cleaned and regreased the shaft and instaled the brass bushing it came with & tried one of the lightest springs and one of the medium springs. The car ran great but I couldn't get it to idle right as the cetrifical advance was fluctuating(sp) at idle.

Next I removed the 1 light spring and replaced it with the other medium spring and was able to get the idle problem squared away but the bronze bushing that came with the kit was giving it 30 degrees centrifical advance and I was only able to 10 initial for a total of 40. The car ran good but it acted like it wanted more intial advance.

So.. here is what I did next, I pulled the distributor back out and installed the red bushing I had left from the MSD distributor I put in my 68 years ago. I had no idea if it would even work or not but I figured what the hell, I would give it a try. I put every thing back together and set initial at 18 per Garys recomendation and with that red MSD bushing it has 20 centrifical for a total of 38. The car sounds awesome!!:yes: Very very responsive. Unfortunatly it started to rain so I haven't driven it yet. :mad:

Can I ask what springs you all are running? do you have any issues with the advance coming in to early causing idle problems? since I was by myself and just using a dail back timming light right now I dont know what rpm I am getting full advance. I do still need to replace the vacumn advance with the echlin. The one that is on there now doesn't even seem work at idle.

With all the advice you all have given the car has truly made a 180. It is really starting to run strong.:yes:
Thank you
:beers:

Good for you Nick. Eric's help on the carb was a big part I think. I am not sure what springs I have since I had the distributor was curved by a guy with a Sun machine. I have 36* total. You may want to check 16* initial out. It is crazy all the initial this 30-30 wants. I kind of stumbled on it when I was working out the tune of my engine. Conventional wisdom seems wrong for this original cam. I have lousy quench too, according to the real engine builders on this site. Drive it in better weather then come back and tell us how lousy the 302 is on the street.;)

I want to do UDHarold's quick and dirty method in post #5 to check the cam installation also. He says an engine will want a lot of initial if the cam is retarded. He just has me wondering. I will be gone out of town most of this week so I can hardly wait to log in Thursday evening.

Nick;
I belive the medium silver Moroso kit springs are the ones I have in, advance comes in at 1300 or so and is all in by 2500rpm. Where does your start to come in? if its too early it can effect idle. The low vac can is a must that extra advance at idle helps.
Todd

Gary,

Thanks, as soon as I get a chance I willl take it back out and see how it runs. If needed I can drop back to 16 initial to get the 36 total. Your right, Erics help with the carb was a major help. :yes: I would like to have him restore the carb a little later down the line as soon as I have a little extra cash in my car budget. :)


Todd,

Thanks, those are what I ended up with. I could tell right away by the feel that the week springs wern't going to cut it that is why I thought I might stagger them. It sounded really good till I tried to drive then the idle was all over the place.:o With both medium silver springs the idle problem was cured.

Did you use the Moroso weights of the stock ones? Also what bushing did you use and where did you get it? Do you have yours set up with 18* centrifical as Gary suggested?

I will go to Napa this week and get the Echlin vacumn advance and try it as well.

I am not sure what rpm the advance was coming in at since I dont have a tach on my light. but if yours is at 1300 rpm with the same springs I am running it can't be to far off from there.

Thanks again,
:beers:

Well I stoped off at the Napa store this morning to pick up the echlin VC 1810. The guy told me he would have to order it from the factory and it would be here in a week. I paid him and he said he would call when it gets here. 45 mins later he called me abd said it is discontiued and is no longer available.:mad:

Is there any others out there that work the same as the echlin VC 1810? Does anyone know the specs on the eclin so maybe I can cross referance it to another manufactor? any other ideas?

Thanks Again

Any of the Camaro specialty parts houses carry it?

alan

VC1810 B28, 3-5, 8 @ 5.75-8
1965 409 High Perf.
1965 327 High Perf.
1966 327 High Perf.
1964-67 Corvette High Perf. FI

These are the specs. It would have B28 stamped on the bracket. I think the Echlin unit was the only one out there. Keep trying all the NAPA stores.

VC1810 B28, 3-5, 8 @ 5.75-8
1965 409 High Perf.
1965 327 High Perf.
1966 327 High Perf.
1964-67 Corvette High Perf. FI

These are the specs. It would have B28 stamped on the bracket. I think the Echlin unit was the only one out there. Keep trying all the NAPA stores.

Thanks Gary.

I will try a differant store later in the week, I wonder if a person could online and find it??

Edit....

Napa online shows the part # so I ordered it from them. Hopefully they have it in stock. I will let you all know if the order is filled. heck it might be worth picking up an extra if these are discontinuing them. Just a thought. :)

Thanks Again

I gotta say that a 1st Gen. Mustang Pony Car w/ a 271hp/289 will flat get w/ it!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Windsor_engine#289_.22HiPo.22_.28K-code.29

pdq67

I gotta say that a 1st Gen. Mustang Pony Car w/ a 271hp/289 will flat get w/ it!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Windsor_engine#289_.22HiPo.22_.28K-code.29

pdq67

That's damstraight.
Back in High School my best friend Marty's Mom had a Grand Prix and a 67 Stang w/289. We always tried to get him to borrow the Stang cuz Oh God, me and Marty and Jim could raise hell in that little thing. "Light em up Marty!" Just lookin for somehow to screw up is all we were!!!
Course the Grand Prix was no slouch either. Boys:D

Here is the email I received this morning from Napa Online...

Thank you for shopping NAPAonline.com. We apologize for the delay in contacting you about your order.
We regret to inform you the Distributor Vacuum Control that you ordered is not available at this time. It is on factory back--order.
We do not have an estimated delivery date available. We have attempted to locate this item for you without success.
Your order has been cancelled. You will not incur any charges relating to the cancelled order.
We apologize for any inconvenience and again we thank you for shopping NAPAonline.com.


Regards, Customer Support
Have a great day!
NAPAonline.com


Anyone have have any other ideas where I might fing one?
Thanks again,
:beers:

I would say contact Echlin directly but I bet the things are made in China. But what the hey, contact Echlin anyways. I did see that either Classic Industries has adjustable vacuum cans( part # PX9006). Is that an option?

The other possibility is some Napa store has one sitting on the shelf gathering dust? Do they track inventory by store?

alan

You could put a set of pro magnum roller rockers on it to pick up a few more hp. You would probably have to use spacers for your valve covers if you have the stock ones on it. Since you want to keep the stock look, you could port the manifolds to clean up the casting on the inside. If you are running a 8" balancer, you could switch to a smaller 6 3/4" unit. That should allow the motor to rev up faster. Another thing would be a billet aluminum flywheel. It would cut more rotating mass off the engine to allow it to rev faster. A k&n x-stream top would help get more air into the motor. What gear are you running? 4.10s or a 4.56 would be great for that 302.

The Magnum roller tip rockers fit with no problem under stock valve covers. I have them. I think that is definitelty part of the equation to have the little extra lift provided over stock rockers.

Magnum's and pro magnums are 2 different rockers. The pro magnums would not fit with repro z/28 valve covers, too wide, the baffle wouldn't fit between then. Don said his fit after some minor squeezing of the baffles with his original valve covers.

Alan,

The Napa store I originally ordered it from said they called Echlin directly and it was discontinued:(

67SS&99SS,

All great ideas, but I wont remove any factory parts. I want it to run it's best but it must stay stock. I also agree on the gears but mine just has 3.73s.

Gary

I might look into the roller tips. i have an extra set of Erson roller rockers that are on the old motor out of my old Blue 69. I thought about tring them.

Jim

The erson roller rockers I mentioned did clear under a set Corvette finned valve covers( look just like my factory Z covers but have drippers) I had on my old blue 69.

Thanks to all for the help,
:beers:

update..,

Tonight I finally went out and drove the car after recurving the distributor. The car runs awesome. :hurray: It seems to really like the 18* initial and 38* total. I tell you guys, this isn't the same car it had been for the last 10 years. It is actually fun to drive and when you stab the throttle it flat screams above 4000 rpm and is very drivable down low in the lower rpms.

I would still really like to try and find a low vacumn, vacumn advance can for it but all in all I am thrilled with the results.

Thanks again to all for the help,
:beers:

I ran into the Echlin thing too. I have a friend that works at a NAPA and got me a BWP part # V329 which is equivilant to the Echlin. It's even made in the USA. My vacuum is all in at idle and I have about 8-10 ".

I ran into the Echlin thing too. I have a friend that works at a NAPA and got me a BWP part # V329 which is equivilant to the Echlin. It's even made in the USA. My vacuum is all in at idle and I have about 8-10 ".

Thanks Harvard,

I just got off the phone with the Napa store. Same story, Not available.. obsolete part. :(

update..,

Tonight I finally went out and drove the car after recurving the distributor. The car runs awesome. :hurray: It seems to really like the 18* initial and 38* total. I tell you guys, this isn't the same car it had been for the last 10 years. It is actually fun to drive and when you stab the throttle it flat screams above 4000 rpm and is very drivable down low in the lower rpms.

I would still really like to try and find a low vacumn, vacumn advance can for it but all in all I am thrilled with the results.

Thanks again to all for the help,
:beers:

I have been trying to get others to undertand about the driveability issue. 1/2 the people just say 302 ..... no torque, a dog in town etc. The other 1/2 thinks a 1969 11:1 motor can not run on today's pump gas. I am so glad you verified this for me. I discovered this tuning trick by accident.

Only 1 company made this vacuum can for everyone. If JohnZ sees this thread he may be able to tell you who actually makes them.

Gary, can you explain what you mean when you say 18 degrees initial. I remember the factory spec was 4 BTDC with the vac advance plugged @950 rpm (or something close to that).

thanks

alan

Gary, can you explain what you mean when you say 18 degrees initial. I remember the factory spec was 4 BTDC with the vac advance plugged @950 rpm (or something close to that).

thanks

alan

The factory initial setting (4* BTDC) was intentionally retarded (in addition to "ported vacuum") from optimum to increase exhaust gas temperature to meet emission requirements at idle.

The vacuum advance cans are ALL made now by Standard Motor Products - they bought that business from Echlin, Niehoff, Borg-Warner, and Dana about two years ago. The equivalent numbers by brand (in case you find them in stock) for advance units that are fully-deployed at 8" Hg. are:

NAPA/Echlin VC-1810

Niehoff DR-305

Borg-Warner V329

Standard Motor Products VC-177


The next-best units (fully-deployed at 12" Hg.) are:

NAPA/Echlin VC-1765

Niehoff DR320

Borg-Warner V375

Standard Motor Products VC-181

:beers:

Gary, can you explain what you mean when you say 18 degrees initial. I remember the factory spec was 4 BTDC with the vac advance plugged @950 rpm (or something close to that).

thanks

alan

I am sure there are more qualified people to explain why long duartion cams (like the 30-30) require a lot of initial timing to run correctly, as opposed to the way the factory specified for emmisions as JohnZ explained. I think it has to do with exhaust gas reversion due to overlap. Lean mixtures (such as at cruise and idle) need a lot of timing to get the combustion started. That is why full vacuum advance at idle works so well on the 302 motor. I helps them run cooler too. The following article by JohnZ is golden info.

http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-11689.html

JohnZ

Wow great info Thank you. Do you know which parts houses carry each brand? I know Napa had the echlin but who carries the niehoff, Borgwarner, and standard Motor Products brand names? Car Quest, Checker, Pep boys? I am not sure where to look for these.

Thanks Again, There is hope yet;)

Gary,

I am with you, Sure it doesnt have torque like a big block but it will cruise nicely down in the lower rpms. I can chug along in 3rd gear at 25 mph with no problem now. But the best part is when you stand on it above 4000 rpm that tach just zings past redline.:yes::D:D

most all engine run better with lots of advance, particularly under no load.

That's part of the reason you're trying to find that particular vacuum can, so you can hook it to manifold vacuum and get it to deplay at idle, adding another 10 degrees to that 18!

Others I'm sure are way more qualified than I to attempt to explain the anemic factory settings, but I've been tuning hi po engines since I was 13 years old, and they like a LOT of advance at low load.

Checker auto / Parts America online shows all of the part #'s except the echlin VC-1810 so I will hit a checker auto tomorow and if they dont have it I will just order one online. :hurray:

Ok, Checker auto has ordered me the Niehoff DR-305 and claims it will be here on March 03. I will let you know if it actually shows up. They said the others were unavailable.

Ok, Checker auto has ordered me the Niehoff DR-305 and claims it will be here on March 03. I will let you know if it actually shows up. They said the others were unavailable.

Check it with a Mityvac when you get it and see how much vacuum it takes to pull the rod all the way in; they've been known to mis-box them.

The units that fully-deploy at 8" Hg. should be stamped "B28" on the bracket, and the units that fully-deploy at 12" Hg. should be stamped "B20".

:beers:

http://www.chevelles.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: new cam, cars not happy under 2k
I recommend my 'Quick & Dirty' method for verifying that the cam was installed correctly. The reason being, IF the cam is installed even slightly retarded, one of the obvious indications is that the engine takes more timing to run right, and there is a lock of bottom-end power and response.
You have this, so it is worth checking it out.
You only have to remove a valve cover.
Turn the engine up to TDC, and look at #1 cylinder's valves.
If BOTH valves are closed, you need to turn the engine one more turn so that both valves are off the seat at TDC.
Check the heights of the top of the retainers to the spring seats. The intake valve should be .030" to .060" CLOSER to the head. If the exhaust valve is closer, the cam is retarded and you have to take off the front cover and install the cam correctly.
The most common problem is that you have lined up the keyway with the dot on the keyway. The correct mark is on a tooth a couple of teeth counter-clockwise from the keyway. The cam does not have to be taken out to fix this problem.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/olp/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.chevelles.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1421138) http://www.chevelles.com/forums/olp/images/buttons/multiquote_off.gif (http://www.chevelles.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1421138) http://www.chevelles.com/forums/olp/images/buttons/quickreply.gif (http://www.chevelles.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1421138)


http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1421138&highlight=quick+dirty#post1421138

I checked my cam installation per UDHarold's method above. I wondered if I had a problem because the 30-30 liked so much initial timing. It checked out right in tolerance with the intake valve open .055" more than the exhaust valve.
:hurray:

Update....

I went out and installed the new B28 vacumn can on the car. Well, trouble in paridise. ;) Problem I would have is the idle would be all over the place. If I would turn the idle down to 900 it would just die out. I still only get about 7" of vacumn at idleon a good day :D and If I could get it to idle right when I would touch the throttle it would go to full advance and then the idle would not come back down. if I turn the idle back down and the rpms come down to where it looses vacumn it would just stall.

I put a light back on it and it would go from 18* initial idling to over 40* in a matter of say 200 rpms. i started tring to readjust the carb and then finally just stopped. I had the car running awesome before the swap to I just pulled it back off and put the old vacumn can back on. the idle problems were gone. The vacumn can that is on there has B1 stamped on it, I have no idea what that decodes to but the car sure runs better.

Any Ideas why it didnt work like every one elses car? i even pulled some initial out of the car to try and compensate for it but it seemed like it would give full advance or nothing at all.:confused:

Thanks Again,
:beers:

Sure sounds like a vacuum leak. New can defective? When you set the timing with the can d/c'd, did the car run ok? Maybe the calibration on the new can is out?

alan

You need 9-10 in. HG. to keep the canister deployed. It died because the vacuum dropped and so did 15 degrees of advance. I would think the vacuum would go up with the extra advance and the blades closing more. I have to admit, mine is touchy on this also. It really needs to idle at 950 - 1000 RPM to keep the cannister deployed.

Check John Z's post above. The cannisters I have before really did not deploy all the way until more than 8" and had more like 16 degrees. A guy I know gave me a stepped cam that limits the arm movement. It screws into one of the holes that mounts the cannister. I think it is made by Crane. I played with a vacuum gauge and a hose with a "T" with the cannister connected to one side and the vacuum gauge on the other. I used my mouth as a vacuum source to see where the arm stopped at 8 in.

You need 9-10 in. HG. to keep the canister deployed. It died because the vacuum droppped and so did 15 degrees of advance. I would think the vacuum would go up with the extra advance and the blades closing more. I have to admit, mine is touchy on this also. It really needs to idle at 950 - 1000 RPM to keep the cannister deployed.

I hear you Gary, but I have never been able to get 9" of vacumn ever with this thing. i may still have other issues somewhere else that I just havent found yet, but with the old B1 vacumn can back on it the little car flat screems. There are no idle issues and it will sit and idle at 900 - 950 rpm all day and not miss a beat. I dont have a vacumn pump so I dont know what vacumn exactly the new B28 can was opening but it seemed like it was an all or nothing type unit.

Funny, I was tring to record the idle while I had it out today and our cars sound like twins. :D Sounds like yours is idling a touch faster than mine and hint louder but the same sweet solid lifter sound. I know you have the tri ys but what pipes / muffler are you running?

I have the current clip and an older clip with the chambered system. I have the standard transverse system sold by Heartbeat City. They buy the parts from IMCO. IMCO manufactures aftermarket for mufflers shops etc. HBC just cuts the tailpipes off and welds the chrome tips on if you want them.

I do get about 9.5 to 10" at idle.

Gary,
here is my lame attempt at a video of my car idling. :o:D

http://rides.webshots.com/video/3035137170035900443sSbXgw

Nothing lame about that!

Hopefully I can do a walk-around like that in a couple of weeks.

The vacuum can stamped "B1" is a VC-680, spec'd to start moving at 8"-11" Hg., and be fully-deployed at 16" Hg. When (rpm) does your centrifugal advance curve start, and is the vacuum can connected to a "ported" or full manifold vacuum source? Did you check the new can with a Mityvac to see if it meets spec?

:beers:

John,

I am embarrassed to say I dont know when it starts to come in. I dont have a tach on my timing light and i was by myself when doing all this so I didnt have anyone to watch the tach in the car for me.

The vacumn advance is on the full vacumn port. I put a T in the line that goes to the choke diphram and hooked it up there. I just have a cap on the original ported port.

No I didnt check it as I dont have a Mityvac. It might be time to go and buy one though. The weather here has been so crappy lately that I havent had the car back out.

Thanks again for your help,

Ya know, I'd almost hate to suggest this in a purist z28 thread... but, one of those electronic advance MSD's would solve this, the ones where you set the advance with rotary switches? You can get a black cap for them that takes old style plug wires. :yes:

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MSD%2D8394&N=700+115&autoview=sku

Nick;
I bought an extra Niehoff DR-305 the other day at my local Kragen store (they actually had one in stock). I checked the thing before I threw it in the spare parts drawer.
rod starts moving at 6~7" fully deployed at 10". I used my Mityvac and the gauge should be fairly accurate.
Todd

Jim,

I hear you and know that MSD set up would solve all my problems but I dont want to remove any original parts from the car. From past experiance (my 68 SS/RS 396) once you get started it is easy to get carried away. :yes:




Todd,

Thanks for the info. I'll bet from the way mine was acting it is exactly the same. I need to go by a mityvac so I can quit guessing at this thing.:D

Which vacumn can are you running?

Thanks Again,
:beers:

I'm running the Echlin VC 1810. It looks darn close to the Niehoff spare.
If you connect the can you need 950~1000 rpm to hold 10" and get a solid idle.
Have you checked to see at 950~1000 what your vac reading is?

Todd