Has anyone used these, if so do they leave your car at stock height. Also how would you rate the crastsmanship. They seem very well priced.

Thanks

JJ
---------------------------------------------------*******---------------------------------------------------------
EDIT BY MODERATOR

This is now an 11 page thread, to save you some reading, these arms are made offshore and sold by a company called "SPC" various vendors are selling them on Ebay with different names.

Kyle Tucker of Detroit Speed and Engineering makes a statement on page 9 please read it! http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=127967&page=9

Don't ask me about these arms, I have no special info, and can't vouch for or against them except to say that this is not the type of company where you can call them and talk to the guy who made or engineered the part. Are they strong enough? maybe, but maybe not!

9/10/08 WARNING!!!!! WARNING!!! WARNING!!!
READ THIS NEW POST ON BREAKAGE OF THE INSERTS THAT GO IN THE UPPER A ARM SLOTS. INSERTS ARE MADE OF POT METAL AND BREAK!
http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=141451
David

Got a link?

Yes, please give link. I too am about to buy a set of arms and would like to see them all before I buy.

Couldn't find a website. They are listed on ebay though the Item # is 200202608124

Details always help, lol.

http://i15.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/dc/5e/8570_12.JPG

ebay link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&viewitem=&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26_trksid%3Dm37%26satitle%3D 200202608124%26category0%3D%26fvi%3D1&item=200202608124)

Thick wall chrome moly cnc a-arms (.155" lower/.125" upper). Tig welded.Additional pos caster improves handling ability. Billet cnc cross shaft, industrial chrome plated for protection and good looks. Multi-piece alum/Hi-tech Delrin style bushings. Includes factory Moog style upper/lower ball joints. Spring pocket is 1 piece and lowered. Noise free, precision crafted High Performance tubular A-arms for 1st Gen Camaro/Firebird and 1968-74 Nova. Available in black.

These control arms are superior to most current arms on the market today. Come fully assembled and ready to install. Accepts all factory spindles sway bars etc. When installing with factory style disc kit that uses backing plates, a small amount of material from backing plate may need to be trimmed for clearance at lower ball joint area. This will be a very nice item to install with my 12" or 13" disc brake kits!

Get them at a low introductory price. With Ebay's new higher fee's the price will surely go up.

I dunno. No mention of improved geomentry. Lowered spring pocket?

The arms pictured above are from Detroit Speed.

Tyler

The arms pictured above are from Detroit Speed.

Tyler

They sure are cheap on e-bay. I wonder if they are knock offs or stolen!! You can buy the entire set for less than $650 shipped! Something has to be not right??

Bought a pair today, will report back on the craftsmanship, he has multiple sets for sale so I doubt they are stolen.

They might be knock offs, but they are so damn close to the DSE part that I'd be calling a lawyer if they aren't from DSE.

Tyler

I saw the same posting on e-bay. I asked the guy posting the add a few questions and haven't heard from him. I doubt they are stock height because it says the spring pockets are one piece and lowered. One of my question was how much are they lowered? I ahve a set of 1 1/2" lower springs to install and am afraid the lowered pockets on these will drop it to much, 2 or 2 1/2", and that will be to much causing clearance problems. I do agree they look like a copy of DSE. Sure is a good price! While we are here does anyone know the advantages and disadvantages of the coil spring isolator I have seen in many of the aftermarket sites? Will these Raise the spring?

I saw the same posting on e-bay. I asked the guy posting the add a few questions and haven't heard from him. I doubt they are stock height because it says the spring pockets are one piece and lowered. One of my question was how much are they lowered? I ahve a set of 1 1/2" lower springs to install and am afraid the lowered pockets on these will drop it to much, 2 or 2 1/2", and that will be to much causing clearance problems. I do agree they look like a copy of DSE. Sure is a good price! While we are here does anyone know the advantages and disadvantages of the coil spring isolator I have seen in many of the aftermarket sites? Will these Raise the spring?

Yes. The frame in my 77 is apparantly tweaked, even with new springs it sat 1" low on the RH side. I put a 3/8" energy suspension poly isolator at the top of the rh coil and it picked the car up about 3/4", so about a 2:1 ratio..

If they are direct knock off's then there is a good deal out there. I am more concerned with quality and material. I think you would be able to see weld and fab quality but materials are something I would not know how to verify.

I think that both global west and detroit speed and others are making some very nice control arms. They can be expensive though, maybe this guys source is doing the same thing but for less money. All I know is for the savings it's very tempting but it's also scary to think I could have one break and cause 10 times more $$$$ in damage to my Camaro than what I saved.



This was my responce from the e-bay seller for those that are intrested.

What the seller sent me when asked:

"I buy direct from a manufactuer that you would not recognize by name. Everything as shown is included. These are the finest available."
- mgchevyparts

Sometimes companies will set up an EBay seller to handle overstock...so they could really be from DSE...they could just be cleaning out some stock.

Jim

What the seller sent me when asked:

"I buy direct from a manufactuer that you would not recognize by name. Everything as shown is included. These are the finest available."
- mgchevyparts

Thanks for sharing this! With that kind of reply, there's no way in heck I'd buy from this guy. That's the kind of reply you get from a shady used car salesman... and it tells me that these must be knock-offs. So... they could be great, but they could also be made from poor materials with inferior construction. No thanks. I'll stick with people I can trust... people capable of giving me a straight answer.

Just my $0.025

~Bob

Thanks for sharing this! With that kind of reply, there's no way in heck I'd buy from this guy. That's the kind of reply you get from a shady used car salesman... and it tells me that these must be knock-offs. So... they could be great, but they could also be made from poor materials with inferior construction. No thanks. I'll stick with people I can trust... people capable of giving me a straight answer.

Just my $0.025

~Bob

I agree, the cost savings on a part like this can not justify the possible damage and cost down the road. They could be great parts that are made just as well or better than the Detroit Speed parts.......heck they could even be made by Detroit Speed but as I would not recognize the manufacture as stated by the seller I dought they come from anyplace with a reputation to up hold or R&D behind them other than knocking them off.

Yeah...that answer is pretty wiggy.

Jim

Got them in today. The welds and the finish are what you would expect from a quality shop, I can not say about the fit yet but will update. As stated before some companies will sell their overstock to a wholesaler who in turn will not be able to say where he got them from. These could very well be DSE's, i'm not saying they are just saying what they could be. My buddy has a pair of gobal west and the quality of these are very similar. The welds, the weight and the quality of finish do not indicate chinese made at all. So far I am very happy with them I will let you know more when they get on the car.


Wrooster

I'd love to hear how they fit.

I noticed in the ad that they have "Moog-like" balljoints...as in they-aren't-Moog. I wonder what they are?

Thanks for sharing this! With that kind of reply, there's no way in heck I'd buy from this guy. That's the kind of reply you get from a shady used car salesman... and it tells me that these must be knock-offs. So... they could be great, but they could also be made from poor materials with inferior construction. No thanks. I'll stick with people I can trust... people capable of giving me a straight answer.

Just my $0.025

~Bob
I don't get it. All he said was he buys directly from a manufacturer that you would not recognize. I see two different sellers offering them now. One for $475+ shipping. Maybe a Pi$$ed of DSE employee is making them, selling them to someone and they end up on Ebay? I do understand safety concerns, but truly have you looked at the flimsy stock arm? Wouldn't take much to improve on that. Competition among competitors is what keeps price in check and what makes this country great. The aforementioned companies sell for about $1000 set. Been doing it for years. I think they have made plenty of money on them and for a product that's been on the market a couple of years it's nice to see someone out there thats not trying to rape us, so to speak. After the intitial investment of tooling and research is paid for the price of these items never comes down until something like this happens. This is because of pure greed by whomever the manufacturer is. I don't blame them, but I don't blame the guy making the knock offs either. Besides I am pretty sure the welders at Global West and DSE are not the only people in this world that can weld properly.

I agree with you... but there's a few problems with that. One, these arms, for a whole set, are HALF what it would cost to buy them from DSE. That's a massive price difference... and certainly a point of concern. Surely it would be easy to sell these for more money than what they're going for. Secondly, yes, lots of people can weld, but the quality of the weld is paramount. Are these arms being made by someone who wants to make good, quality control arms who understands the implications of the safety requirements of their welds? Or are they being made by someone who doesn't really know what they're making, and is just being told to weld these pieces together? There'd be a big difference in quality in those two circumstances. Yes, the stock arms are certainly flimsy... but they were built under strict quality control by people who understood what they were building. Welds are easy, but a good weld that will not break or crack under duress is slightly harder.

I'm not saying you're not absolutely correct, just that I'm very skeptical.

It would have been just as easy for this guy to say "I am a wholesaler and therefore cannot tell you the name of the manufacturer" instead of saying "You wouldn't recognize who made them".

~Bob

I see two different sellers offering them now. One for $475+ shipping.

That's the same guy. Holy smokes that's cheap! If any of you already bought from him, I think you should have waited! I wonder what would make him lower the price more than $100 on something that he's apparently been moving quite easily at $560 and $595?

~Bob

It's really hard to say. Maybe they are not moving as fast as he thought and he's hurting to get his return on investment. To be honest I don't see a whole lot of things selling that great right now. It's obvious this economy is slowing down. In general there seems to be a lot of cars for sale right now as well. Prices starting to drop slightly in my opinion. But of course I know what some others are thinking. Bad welds, poor fitting, some inferior construction. It's possible. , who knows. It's also possible the guy is just trying to get his business going with these arms to prove to the manufacturer he can move them for him and possibly get a better price break himself.

I agree with you... but there's a few problems with that. One, these arms, for a whole set, are HALF what it would cost to buy them from DSE. That's a massive price difference... and certainly a point of concern.
~Bob

Hi Bob if you exclude the R&D costs their is a TON I say TON of Profit being made by DSE on all of their products. For Gods sake they charge 650 for a roll bar. I challenge you to use your logic on why this bar cost 650.
Its a pretty commonly held opinion that DSE charges a premium for their goods. IMHO they are way overpriced.

No harshig on ya but its hard to defend DSE's prices.

I had to buy some at $475. I will give my opinion when I get them, but this guy has over 700+ transactions and a perfect 100% feedback rating. I agree DSE and some others really enjoy "sticking it" to us as much as they can. I will not argue they make a superior product, but I will give the "little" guy a shot. I believe someone else CAN make an Equally good product for a lot less. Pefect example is the $650 roll cage. $6700 sub-frame. $400 inner wheel wells. Supporting these other guys I understand IS RISKY but why not give them a shot. If we don't very soon (if it already hasn't) this car hobby will only be for the elite at those prices. After the research I've done talking to other people he sold these to they are all completely satisfied. He offers a 7 day money back gaurantee if you don't like them when you receive them. I think it's worth giving this guy a shot.

Hi Bob if you exclude the R&D costs their is a TON I say TON of Profit being made by DSE on all of their products. For Gods sake they charge 650 for a roll bar. I challenge you to use your logic on why this bar cost 650.
Its a pretty commonly held opinion that DSE charges a premium for their goods. IMHO they are way overpriced.

No harshig on ya but its hard to defend DSE's prices.

I totally agree. No doubt that stuff is overpriced (IMO, anyway). You're paying for name, and of course for the cost of developing as well... and supporting company growth, quality control, auto related functions, etc... so some of that cost is legit I'm sure. But still, they're way outta my budget, and I sure can't imagine that much cost in materials.

I wasn't really disputing that though... just commenting on how WAY below market prices these things are. And at $475 for a whole set, saying "way below" is an understatement. You'd think it would be easy to ask a few more hundred for these... and still be under market prices... and still sell a ton of them. So it's sure hard not to wonder "What the heck is wrong with them?"

I had to buy some at $475. I will give my opinion when I get them...

No doubt... that's hard to pass up. Yeah, please let us know. I think many of us are dying to know how they check out. I myself am really curious how well they fit on the car, and how correctly they do caster and camber. The "correctness" of their geometry will be the true indicator of their quality (i.e. if they're indeed DSE's or some other pro suspension manufacturer or just "cheap knock offs").

~Bob

Ok...I jumped. Should be here next week.

This was something that was on my front suspension list as a "nice to have" at $1100...but at $475?...

Jim

Anyone here interested in splitting a pair? I only need the lowers.

That's almost too good to be true or pass up. Anyone know if you can use the coil over QA1's with these or do you have to use stock coil springs?

Just stock coil springs, I already asked.

Just stock coil springs, I already asked.

Darn:(

That reminds me...I need a set of those too ;)

I need to dig through David's posts...and find that article on spring rate. Seems like the Moog 6308s?...are for 6cly, with a spring rate of about 350?...and I think David recommended around 500?

Jim

Darn:(

There are always these Alston Varishock Coilover conversion shocks:

http://www.cachassisworks.com/images/VAS_862MN-425_SHOWNid.jpg

Those are nice Nick , will have to look into that. Thank's for posting.

I just bought uppers and lowers from DSE at $1300 and they would not give a discount for buying both. There are nice though.

First gen's have a lowered spring pocket, secong gens do not.

Those e-bay ones look like the DSE ones.

That's what I love about this forum, we can get a lot of good information and hear a lot of different opinions as well as advice on any part of our Camaro. I was REAL close to ordering the Speed Tech control arms when I saw this posting. I too wanted a quality arm that would take a coil spring or coil-over shock. I watched the posts, read the feedback for the seller and finally decided that it was a good buy. Mine should be here by Tue so if anyone is interested, I'll post on what the quality looks like and how they fit on my subframe.

I too wanted a quality arm that would take a coil spring or coil-over shock.

Just realize that with a conventional spring pocket, you will have to run a conversion style coilover. You can't have both a standard shock mount and a double shear coilover mount at the same time.

I believe your only two choices for coilovers are the Varishocks I posted above and the QA1 setup. I would steer clear of the QA1 setup. It uses the upper spring perch with a threaded shock sleeve for the lower perch. The QA1's can put a side load on the shock body and there have been some reports of leaky shocks due to this side load.
:thumbsup:

QA1's:

http://www.naake.com/procoilsystem.jpg

I think they are knock offs.I bought a set though pay pal and changed my mind a couple of days later.The guy had no problem giving my money back.They look like quality items.Welds look good from pictures but i would like to eyeball a set close up.They don't look powder coated like DETROITS and he says[ bushing style and ball joint STYLE].The top cross bar is chome plated without caster inserts.Detroit is stainless with caster inserts.Other than that I'm with the opinion that Detriot and others are getting way to much for their product and a quality set could be made ;with a profit;for this price.What I will probably do is fab my own when i get time and i Know they will be quality.Those who bought keep us updated please.P.S. I changed my mind because of communication problems with the seller at the get go and got paranoid.

It's been said in some posts/forums that lower tubular control arms solve this problem if they are made with the spring pocket or arm relocated. It's my understanding that some are and some are not or they can be ordered with this mod. The issue being that why buy a new lower and then not go with a the full coil over. Myself I would rather do the control arm with a QA1 coil over so I don't have to modify the sub frame, mine is more for ride hight adjustment than anything else. I am going to be running QA1's with stock lower control arms fitted with delrin bushings. QA1 stands behind the shocks and design and also offers rebuilds. They claim that there are no problems with this conversion but I have heard otherwise in the forums.

I have read that the mounting of the QA1 on the lower control arm is supposed to make a difference. I am not sure but I think some have mounted the shock on the bottom (ground/pavement side) of the control arm and others have mounted them on top or between the lower control arm and the sub frame. I have also read that people have used the stock hardware to mount them and not used the correct or supplied hardware, drilled the holes or removed the clip nuts.

I hope they work, I bought a used set from a person going with a DSE sub frame and full coil over conversion for a very nice price. Before they go in I will be calling QA1 to see what they say about mounting etc. It's one of those things that if done wrong just might affect the product. Then again there could be a design flaw, I hope not.

Just realize that with a conventional spring pocket, you will have to run a conversion style coilover. You can't have both a standard shock mount and a double shear coilover mount at the same time.

I believe your only two choices for coilovers are the Varishocks I posted above and the QA1 setup. I would steer clear of the QA1 setup. It uses the upper spring perch with a threaded shock sleeve for the lower perch. The QA1's can put a side load on the shock body and there have been some reports of leaky shocks due to this side load.
:thumbsup:

QA1's:

http://www.naake.com/procoilsystem.jpg

Thanks for the added info dipren443! The coil-over conversion shocks do look like a nice piece. My original thought was to get a set of control arms that could accept either springs or coil-overs but I am running coil springs at this time. I didn't have any plans in the near future to change it either, I just wanted the ability to choose should I change my mind down-the-road.

It's been said in some posts/forums that lower tubular control arms solve this problem if they are made with the spring pocket or arm relocated. It's my understanding that some are and some are not or they can be ordered with this mod. The issue being that why buy a new lower and then not go with a the full coil over. Myself I would rather do the control arm with a QA1 coil over so I don't have to modify the sub frame, mine is more for ride hight adjustment than anything else. I am going to be running QA1's with stock lower control arms fitted with delrin bushings. QA1 stands behind the shocks and design and also offers rebuilds. They claim that there are no problems with this conversion but I have heard otherwise in the forums.

I have read that the mounting of the QA1 on the lower control arm is supposed to make a difference. I am not sure but I think some have mounted the shock on the bottom (ground/pavement side) of the control arm and others have mounted them on top or between the lower control arm and the sub frame. I have also read that people have used the stock hardware to mount them and not used the correct or supplied hardware, drilled the holes or removed the clip nuts.

I hope they work, I bought a used set from a person going with a DSE sub frame and full coil over conversion for a very nice price. Before they go in I will be calling QA1 to see what they say about mounting etc. It's one of those things that if done wrong just might affect the product. Then again there could be a design flaw, I hope not.

For starters, you are not using the lower spring pocket with either the QA1 or Varishock coilover conversion. It is useless... You are only using the two mounting holes for the lower shock mount. Second of all, I was not discounting the coilover conversion, at least not the Varishock one. I think the Varishocks are a great option. The Varishocks eliminate the need to use the upper spring perch, unlike the QA1's. Chris Alston offers rebuilds on his as well, and they accept more standard linear springs, and you can get any spring rate you want. The Varishocks do not require modification to the subframe either. Also, QA1, in my opinion is geared toward the street rod stuff, whereas Alston is more performance oriented...

I will draw you a little diagram to show you what the issue with the QA1's is:
http://lh3.google.com/nicholas.diprenda/R9XvZCP1WGI/AAAAAAAABZU/XwCvKMXvIJo/s800/QA1.jpg

Thanks for the added info dipren443! The coil-over conversion shocks do look like a nice piece. My original thought was to get a set of control arms that could accept either springs or coil-overs but I am running coil springs at this time. I didn't have any plans in the near future to change it either, I just wanted the ability to choose should I change my mind down-the-road.

Hollywood,

Just be cautious how liberal you use the term "coilovers". If we are talking standard coil overs, i.e., off the shelf stuff from Koni, Penske, Bilstein, etc... you will need double shear mounts top and bottom. And the shocks will require mods to both subframe and lower control arm.

Standard coil over:
http://www.944s2.com/suspension/images/coilover_3.jpg

For starters, you are not using the lower spring pocket with either the QA1 or Varishock coilover conversion. It is useless... You are only using the two mounting holes for the lower shock mount.
http://lh3.google.com/nicholas.diprenda/R9XvZCP1WGI/AAAAAAAABZU/XwCvKMXvIJo/s800/QA1.jpg

Well of course were not using the lower spring pocket....that is a given.

As I see what you have drawn is that your saying the control arm travels in arc and loads/binds at the point where it seats on the shock. Correct?

Is there a range of motion in this arc that causes problems or is it at full compression or rebound where the problems exist? What is it that people have mentioned in forums that changes in aftermarket control arms that makes this a non-issue? I believe that the lower spring pocket is either relocated or the arm is made somewhat different that reduces the arc? Changing the spring pocket does not mean that I am saying it's used, the only part being used is the shock mount location. I could see where delrin bushings would make a big difference in preventing the loads on the shock you have drawn.
I like the Alston shocks and have never seen those before. I may have seen discussions on them but never knew what they looked like. Like I said I got a screaming deal on my QA1's and will use them and see if they work to get my ride hight where I want it. I could very well end up going in the direction of Alstons for a more long term use when I get other things done to my 67 that will require a better shock set up and durability. I think the load point is an are of consideration if your going to drive the card hard.

Well of course were not using the lower spring pocket....that is a given.

I was just going off what you said earlier about the relocated spring pocket. That is the only reason I said that.


As I see what you have drawn is that your saying the control arm travels in arc and loads/binds at the point where it seats on the shock. Correct?

Correct.


Is there a range of motion in this arc that causes problems or is it at full compression or rebound where the problems exist? What is it that people have mentioned in forums that changes in aftermarket control arms that makes this a non-issue? I believe that the lower spring pocket is either relocated or the arm is made somewhat different that reduces the arc? Changing the spring pocket does not mean that I am saying it's used, the only part being used is the shock mount location. I could see where delrin bushings would make a big difference in preventing the loads on the shock you have drawn.
I like the Alston shocks and have never seen those before. I may have seen discussions on them but never knew what they looked like. Like I said I got a screaming deal on my QA1's and will use them and see if they work to get my ride hight where I want it. I could very well end up going in the direction of Alstons for a more long term use when I get other things done to my 67 that will require a better shock set up and durability. I think the load point is an are of consideration if your going to drive the card hard.

Well, I honestly don't know how you could completely cure the problem with the QA1's with aftermarket control arms alone. Using the Delrin bushings and minimizing/eliminating any deflection of the bushings would most certainly assist in remedying the issue. I think the QA1's will work fine if you are not going to push the car too hard. They will be a great tool to get the ride height where you want it without a doubt.

I don't recall, are the shocks available in any specified spring rate?
I wish I had the facilites to instrument all of this and answer all of your questions. Maybe someday... I am certain that the lower shock mount area is reinforced on the global west coil over specific lower arms. I believe that is the only modification.

It's a global west lower control arm that is made for these. I had to do a little searching, to find what people had been talking about. I don't know any specifics on them though. I was reading all this a year or two ago. From what I was reading they have done something that makes them work better with the QA1 coil over. I know is has better mounts, I also think they moved it.

It's a global west lower control arm that is made for these. I had to do a little searching, to find what people had been talking about. I don't know any specifics on them though. I was reading all this a year or two ago. From what I was reading they have done something that makes them work better with the QA1 coil over. I know is has better mounts, I also think they moved it.

SPC has one now too. Lower ball joint moved forward for added caster while tires maintain concentric relation to fender opening. Looks like a nice piece.

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t119/MarkSCandC/1stgenSPC1B.jpg

SPC also makes these!! This is what I am going with for uppers and the cost is cheap for what you get.
http://www.spcperformance.com/PROD_DIR/prod_dynamic/prod_photos/94302.jpg

Going back to the original control arms... FYI, these things seem to be spreading on eBay now. I just did a search and found 4 different sellers with them. The eBay seller "performo" had the best description, clearly calling them "Detroit Speed Style Tubular Control Arms".

So it would seem there is a source out there somewhere that's starting to fill the market with these. In a way, it might be a good thing, because it could force more reasonable prices from the brand names. But with the quality of these knock-offs still in question (final on-the-car fit and function), I guess it's hard to say.

Has anyone gotten these on their car yet and tried to align the front end?

~Bob

I got mine in today and I agree with Wrooster that the welds look solid and they look like a quality part. One thing is they're painted and not powder-coated like the others on the market. I test fit them on my subframe and they fit like a glove. I can't try an alignment yet though so that is still an important "test"

Got mine today. I'll take them over to my camaro-machinist friend tomorrow and get his opinion. He's my "go-nogo" guy.

Jim

Hello, any updates on these control arms from those of you that purchased them?

Mine are going on the car. Good solid pieces, quality welds. My friend said he'd put them on his car, and he is one of the most safety conscious people I know.

That was good enough for me.

Hopefully I'll get the rest of the subframe torn down this weekend so that I can hit it with the POR.

If you want more detailed/larger pics, let me know, and I'll post them.

Jim

Mine are going on the car. Good solid pieces, quality welds. My friend said he'd put them on his car, and he is one of the most safety conscious people I know.

That was good enough for me.

Hopefully I'll get the rest of the subframe torn down this weekend so that I can hit it with the POR.

If you want more detailed/larger pics, let me know, and I'll post them.

Jim

It would be really interesting to know if there are any issues with the geometry of these... I don't have a first gen, so these are not of interest personally, but it will be nice to hear some feedback on these once someone heads to the alignment shop. :yes:

Lob Interested in Pic please if you have a chance.

Sorry it took awhile...camera was giving me fits.

http://picasaweb.google.com/DowntheroadSS/ControlArms

Let me know if you need any other shots/info.

Jim

Sorry it took awhile...camera was giving me fits.

http://picasaweb.google.com/DowntheroadSS/ControlArms

Let me know if you need any other shots/info.

Jim

The pics are asking for email address/password....?

The control arms are knock offs made by a company that does not sell direct. I happened to see aset of these yesterday and look to be quality contructed, but were not installed yet.

Try this link, see if you still get prompted?

http://picasaweb.google.com/DowntheroadSS/ControlArms?authkey=rBkRUb--Ff8

Jim

Any updates on alignment? Needing to buy a set of arms and have been following this thread. I have found a similar, don't know if it is the same one...
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160218053413
the seller, Performance Online, emailed me back and says they are manufactured by Wysco products and they are selling for $639/set. Please keep us updated with some comments on them installed.
Thanks

I got mine a couple weeks ago. Won't be getting aligned any time soon. They are quality constructed and like previously said, great pieces but not powder coated. i can live with that if I save $500-$600. The thing that bothers me is they are missing the lower bump stops. He said he was sending them out to everyone who ordered. Are you other guys still missing yours or am I the only one? It's possible he may have forgot, I need to e-mail him.

Got my bump stops yesterday, Poly's.

I got mine the other day too. It's hard to believe that of all the sets that we've purchased, nobody has a set installed yet! I wish that I could work faster to get my subframe back together. Anyway. the guy that I bought them from, Mike Garcia, said that they were all shipped without them and he was the only guy that figured out what bump stops to use. I wasn't even aware that they were missing and he sent me the notice and shipped them to me. Not bad customer service.....

Wifey poo told me "a small box came a couple days ago for you, it's downstairs on the book shelf" I guess they were here after all. Parts seem 1st rate and as said customer service is great!

Got mine yesterday too...Poly's ;)

Jim

p.s. And...they look PURDY :)

I really want a set of these But..... I only want the lowers beacuse I want to use the SC&C uppers. If anyone is interested in buying the uppers form me or want to split the purchace let me know

I found a set of upper and lowers on Ebay for $585 with free shipping!:hurray:

I really want a set of these But..... I only want the lowers beacuse I want to use the SC&C uppers. If anyone is interested in buying the uppers form me or want to split the purchace let me know
Rico,

I think I'd buy the uppers from you...PM me with your price for them.

anyone install a set of these yet? any issues?

Waiting to hear about fitament, and alignment!

Not surprised to see cheaper knockoff's, but would be concerned about the parts used in assembly. It would not be hard to form the arms with a tube bender, etc... but not just any john doe has the equipment to make CNC stainless steel cross shafts.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them pouring out of China anytime soon for even less $$$.

Here's some pics of mine hanging on the subframe. I'm not close to being ready for the alignment but I thought you guys might like to see what they looked like on the frame.

Wow these look pretty nice for the price. Now I am questioning if I should have paid $1200 for my upper and lower Hotchkis.

I thought they were too good to be true too and I almost spent double to get the speedtech arms. I had my uppers powder-coated and I thought they turned out GREAT! I just hope that they perform as well as they look. :thumbsup:

I got my control arms today. They look like quality products, but I am also missing lower bump stops. Whats the deal with the bump stops?

I don't know about you guys (that bought a set) but I thought the upper ball joints looked kind of cheap, actually REAL cheap. The bolts to hold them down didn't look long enough to engage the ny-lock nuts properly and I couldn't tell if they were hardened. I wasn't even sure if they were grade 5. I checked and TRW has a set from my local Advance Auto Parts that had grade 8 hardware and "pinch" nuts instead of ny-lock. Even the joint itself seemed better quality and was a lot tighter than the original. I picked the TRW part up for 13.99 ea. I wanted Moog but they were double that! I guess this is what we get for going cheap.

To answer the other question about the bump stops, my (eBay) supplier mgchevyparts shipped them out after I bought mine as they were back-ordered. I don't know about the others but they should have come with a set.

I was in the garage puttering yesterday, and was looking at my bump stops...
The lower arm is threaded for two?...but he only shipped two, on for each side?

Is that right?

Jim

I was in the garage puttering yesterday, and was looking at my bump stops...
The lower arm is threaded for two?...but he only shipped two, on for each side?

Is that right?

Jim


One for each side is correct

joe

All right, look at the price on these! Yes I just bought a set. Will let all know on quality of this set as well.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=014&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=330224316215&rd=1

$ 400.00 :eek: wow that,s the best price I've seen on these.

$ 400.00 :eek: wow that,s the best price I've seen on these.

What's interesting is if you read their description, it is almost word for word from DSE's site for their description of their upper and lower control arms.

All of these sets seem to be by the same manufacturer. The guys that did buy them, do the mounting shafts look like the ones in my pictures? The ones with the cams to offset the control arms for additional caster. Mine are countersunk on one side so the cam rests flush to the shaft. The other side just rests against the shaft. It seems to me that they should BOTH be countersunk. What do you guys think?

whoops! Forgot the Pics! :D

Re: $400...

And those are powdercoated...at least the lowers. Tops seem to be either powdercoated, or partially?...

Interesting.

Jim

So what are my options if my car sits exactly how I want it with Hotchkis springs and I replace my factory arms with these?

Re: $400...

And those are powdercoated...at least the lowers. Tops seem to be either powdercoated, or partially?...

Interesting.

Jim
I almost ordered a set the other day but it doesn't say whether there chromoly or mild steel. It also doesn't list the size of tubing used.

Well I got my set in yesterday. Welds look great, Really nice quality. Ball joints look no different than then new replacements I was going to use. Only one issue though,Where the upper controls arms have the aluminum fore and aft caster bushings, the bolt holes are too small for the stock bolts to go through. Also no directions for adjustment or installation. Anyone with DSE upper and lower control arms have any similar situation. Does DSE offer any kind of installation manual with their kits?

Thanks in Advance.

where are you guys finding these?

I want a set like is shown and i dont see anything for hi/tec on ebay....

am i missing something?

I bought a set from this guy, but for much cheaper. He had them listed BIN at $400. I guess when they started selling faster than he thought they should, he readjusted his price and auction only.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-68-69-Camaro-Firebird-Upper-Lower-Tubular-A-Arms_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713Q2em153Q2el126 2QQcategoryZ33583QQihZ013QQitemZ230240454139QQtcZp hoto

I bought a set from this guy, but for much cheaper. He had them listed BIN at $400. I guess when they started selling faster than he thought they should, he readjusted his price and auction only.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1967-68-69-Camaro-Firebird-Upper-Lower-Tubular-A-Arms_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713Q2em153Q2el126 2QQcategoryZ33583QQihZ013QQitemZ230240454139QQtcZp hoto


i want the ones from page one with the chrome a-arms. I liked that little bit of dress up.

i want the ones from page one with the chrome a-arms. I liked that little bit of dress up.


The ones I got are the same, just bad pic to look at.

The ones I got are the same, just bad pic to look at.


really? then i might buy them!

did you install them yet? they fit well?

Do they make lower control arms for using coil over shocks?
Like QA1's ?
MBHD

FYI...these are also showing up in the parts ads in my Chevy High Performance mag...forget which supplier, but they're in there. They were $250/pr both uppers and lowers.

Jim

All of these sets seem to be by the same manufacturer. The guys that did buy them, do the mounting shafts look like the ones in my pictures? The ones with the cams to offset the control arms for additional caster. Mine are countersunk on one side so the cam rests flush to the shaft. The other side just rests against the shaft. It seems to me that they should BOTH be countersunk. What do you guys think?


I got mine, look the same. Can anyone can enlighten us on this, also which way do any of you set up for intial caster, bolt offset towards the front or towards the rear? Mr. Pozzi could you enlighten us ? You seem to have the knowledge.

Thanks in advance.

FYI...these are also showing up in the parts ads in my Chevy High Performance mag...forget which supplier, but they're in there. They were $250/pr both uppers and lowers.

Jim
Wow! is that for both pairs or each pair?

Each pair...but that's still $500 for uppers and lowers, both sides, so about 1/2 of what DSE and others are charging.

There are differences...like the Hi Tec's aren't powdercoated...but neither is the rest of my subframe.

Jim

I'd like to know too. My alignment guy said to place the caster buttons so that the control arm is shifted toward the rear of the Camaro. My control arm was real close to the upper mount when I offset them like that. I had to grind a small amount off for clearance.

Does anyone know where you can purchase bump stops and the rubber piece that the spring sits on for the tubular lower control arm? I ordered bumpstops from energy suspension but the threaded portion was to big for the hole. Thanks

All these questions: Call DSE or check the web site, since they are a knock off of their control arm and ask them. You might also be able to buy the bump stops and other castor buttons from them if needed.

The set that I bought came without the bumpstops, but they shipped separately the next week, and they fit fine.
I'm not sure why both sides of the lower control arm are threaded, but the stops fit both sides.
Mine came through in Bright Red? ;)

Jim

67's use a single stop on the rear of the arm. Maybe the hole is for them?

I would be pissed if I were in Kyle and Stacey's shoes right now. In my opinion you are helping to put companies like DSE out of business by buying china knock offs.

I wouldn't offer tech or parts for a product that wasn't made or purchased through my company, don't expect DSE to either.

Tyler

I don't know Kyle or Stacey?...but I do understand competition, and I fully support the concept. These are NOT the same arms DSE makes, and I am not "helping to put them out of business."
If someone wants to pay the money for DSE's, they can certainly do that.
I would never have spent the $1300 for their product. So in my case, I haven't taken any business away from them, becuase they didn't have my business anyway.

And I agree. DSE has absolutely no obligation to sell the bump stops.

I also understand that when you have a product, ANY product, you typically sell it for whatever the market will bear. If these products change "what the market will bear", then you either adapt, or you go out of business. You decide if you NEED to lower your price, and then you decide if you CAN lower your price. That's how business works.

I'm not trying to start a flaming war...but it's not the first product for our cars that someone has come out with a cheaper version of, and frankly, if some cheaper versions of things had NOT come out?...no where near the number of our great cars would ever get restored.

Just my $.015 worth

Jim

I don't know Kyle or Stacey?...but I do understand competition, and I fully support the concept. These are NOT the same arms DSE makes, and I am not "helping to put them out of business."
If someone wants to pay the money for DSE's, they can certainly do that.
I would never have spent the $1300 for their product. So in my case, I haven't taken any business away from them, becuase they didn't have my business anyway.

And I agree. DSE has absolutely no obligation to sell the bump stops.

I also understand that when you have a product, ANY product, you typically sell it for whatever the market will bear. If these products change "what the market will bear", then you either adapt, or you go out of business. You decide if you NEED to lower your price, and then you decide if you CAN lower your price. That's how business works.

I'm not trying to start a flaming war...but it's not the first product for our cars that someone has come out with a cheaper version of, and frankly, if some cheaper versions of things had NOT come out?...no where near the number of our great cars would ever get restored.

Just my $.015 worth

Jim


+1 what jim said.

Oh Yea, I never thought of calling DSE, I just figured out myself what bump stops to get with the help of fellow members. This is a hobby right?

I would be pissed if I were in Kyle and Stacey's shoes right now. In my opinion you are helping to put companies like DSE out of business by buying china knock offs.

I wouldn't offer tech or parts for a product that wasn't made or purchased through my company, don't expect DSE to either.

Tyler

Wow Don't know where to go with this one but Tyler you must admit you have a slightly biased opinion. Considering you know the names of the DSE folks and are also their peer. I also doubt that this will have much effect on DSE. I don't pretend to know their $$$ situation but I can say that without reservation they have room to drop their prices on these Arms. I agree with LOBstah maybe is the new England in both of us but I would never pay the $$$ DSE is getting for their stuff so any knock off's or USED DSE stuff I ever buy will have no effect on them.
So anyone know were I can pick up some DSE "knock off" Mini tubs?

Technically DSE is my competition, so I have no dogs in this fight.

What I am getting at is these are exact copies of a tubular control arm that DSE put lots of R&D into engineering, and the company ripping off this arm didn't change anything at all. They basicly stole DSE's intellectual property.

You better believe that if someone knocked off my AFX spindle, I would be going toe to toe with the company that ripped it off.

What you don't understand that is if companies like the ones producing these DSE knock-offs just stole everyone's products and sent them to China to get made cheaper, that there would be no more new or innovative products to come to the market to rip off. The companies who make these great items you like to install on your car would be out of business and all you'd have left is a cheaper knock off of a once innovative and unique product.

It pisses me off to see a company do something shady like this, and you all eat it up like its Christmas time.

These purchases are making it harder and harder for Americans to keep jobs and manufacturing businesses here in the U.S. where they belong.

Tyler

Tyler,
Isn't just about every piece of sheetmetal we buy for our cars made in china now?...I don't see GoodMark going out of business. Additionally, I don't know where these control arms are made, but the quality looks good to me, and to a lot of other people who have looked at them. If someone took DSE's design and found a cheaper place to have them built, whether it's China or Finland or Bangor, Maine, DSE had the same option, and chose not to do that. Their choice means that they believe their arms are worth more money, and they probably are. I'm very familiar with product cycles and recovering engineering costs from "early adopters" of a product. I also know that after those costs are recovered, market forces determine the "value" of the goods, and with no competition, you can demand a much higher price.

Also, as I said before, there are differences between these arms and what DSE sells.

Jim

Tyler I agree in theory on most of your points. Companies like DSE are reported to spend $$ on R&D. Deserve to benefit from that effort. But they also need to be understanding. Not all of the car folks out there have a 5 car garage and money to burn. If rich execs, race car drivers and other well to do folks are their target market then these knock offs will have no effect on them. It certainly wont put them out of business.
If it even came close they would drop the price. I dont expect to see either thing happen anytime soon.
The knock offs will however put some good parts in the hands of folks who simply cant drop $1300.00 on control arms.
I have no doubt that your spindles are your design and you deserve all of the spoils from it. Their is truly no other spindle like yours designed specifically to fit and optimize these cars.
BUT you can bet your last $$$ that if the guys who originally designed the c4 c5 corvette spindle looked @ your program that would find some of their original design.

Like lobstah said I am not trying to dust anything up. This site is both a great place for the exchange ideas as well as a Place for you vendor/sponsors to target market. SO some of this stuff will eventually come up. It is painful when it does. We all have the same love for the Hobby. But we unfourtunatly sometimes end up on different sides of the supply/demand paradigm.

If DSE's arms are manufactured here in the states?...That's one more selling point for them to justify a higher cost with.

Jim

I would be pissed if I were in Kyle and Stacey's shoes right now. In my opinion you are helping to put companies like DSE out of business by buying china knock offs.

I wouldn't offer tech or parts for a product that wasn't made or purchased through my company, don't expect DSE to either.

Tyler

If I was them I would be pissed for about 5 minutes and then I would be booking a flight to China to find someone to make my control arms so I could compete toe to toe with these guys. I know they know about producing products overseas because I remember reading about the tooling for their new subframe in China. Their arms are now becoming a commodity item and this is the only way to compete. You'll never be able to stop this sort of thing and it's the reason why the price of just about anything falls over time. Controlling quality will be a challenge but there again that is part of competing effectively and it can be done. At first glance it looks like this will cost American jobs but I think in reality it frees up their production capacity for the new higher margin products that they are (and need to be) introducing.

Just my two cents worth, don't mean to argue with anyone.

Don

Do we know these are for sure made in China? Or is that an assumption? Quality looks great to me. Just because most of us are in the U.S. doesn't mean our quality is actually better than overseas. I would like to think that and it may have been true a few years ago, but not always today. You would be arrogant to assume ALL U.S. made products are superior. Hell you can't hardly buy a U.S. made elctronic part anymore. Does that mean all electronic stuff made is junk? I don't know about that I kind of like my new T.V. I'm a Tool & Die Maker, you should see some of the stuff I've seen built overseas lately. Top notch stuff. It's time to wake up people, U.S. made stuff is not always Superior. Our high cost of living and wages have caught up with us. Someone is willing to make stuff elsewhere for a lot less, and the scary part is their skill level is a lot of times equal to ours. I wish I knew the answer as it could eventually save my job. Fact is an equal quality part no matter where it is made, the cheaper one will sell first everytime. You may be able to get some people to buy only U.S. made parts, but the truth is the majority will buy the cheaper part if it's of equal quality no matter where it's made. BTW China not so cheap anymore either. Look at South Korea for the new manufacturing "hot spot".

Guys,

Years ago I did a cost study on making 1.50" or so taller stock, forged spindles before I bought Pro Motorsports bolt-on spindle extenders and I stopped b/c of the like $50,000 or so forging die cost! (I got a quote from somewhere?)..

And I priced at 500 pair's to sell for starters too!

I wish Heidt's would make a stock type non-dropped forged spindle like their 1.25" or so taller, 2" dropped one and all would be GOOD, imho!!

And if I was a competent certified welder, I would take (4) stock forged spindles and make (2) out of them that were 1.5" tall and have them checked for EVERYTHING before I installed them for safety!

It's really simple to mock up the (2) pieces to weld properly, once you think about it a bit.

pdq67

China or US built, it does not matter. The design is a complete rip off of DSE's and they sell because of it. They are even advertised on auctions as DSE clones or copies or the million other names associated with ripping off intellectual property. The one other thing people fail to understand is product liability and DSE paid lots of money to have the parts certified so if they ever do have a failure, then get sued the damage control can be minimized for them hopefully. Do these cheaper arms being built assume this liability? Do they stand behind a product that had R&D done on Kyles own car and is track tested and street car approved from the DOT? Do they provide customer support? Do they help with alignment issues? Do they sell other bushings or bump stops if needed? Have they taken the parts and tweeked them to be the best they could be?

I don’t think they provide any of that, they just rode in on the back of DSE and copied the design and went to town manufacturing them in my opinion. If that’s what happened and they are just a rip off of DSE arms being made without the approval of DSE then they have stolen from DSE in my opinion. Would you like them to do that to you if they were your design and you spent many hours making them what they are? I would think way different about this and the price etc if they were a new design that someone has come up with and they are selling them this cheap. I would question quality as most others would the price because it does make you wonder. It’s easy to understand that these can be made and sold for this price and make some money. I think make a very good quality part for the money asked for these. The part that gets me is the people making them have ripped someone else off to do it and if I were DSE I would be pissed. Just think you can now go buy a cloned SS with cloned Pro-touring parts on it and if the seller tells you it’s all the real stuff you’re the one that just got ripped off.

China or US built, it does not matter. The design is a complete rip off of DSE's and they sell because of it. They are even advertised on auctions as DSE clones or copies or the million other names associated with ripping off intellectual property. The one other thing people fail to understand is product liability and DSE paid lots of money to have the parts certified so if they ever do have a failure, then get sued the damage control can be minimized for them hopefully. Do these cheaper arms being built assume this liability? Do they stand behind a product that had R&D done on Kyles own car and is track tested and street car approved from the DOT? Do they provide customer support? Do they help with alignment issues? Do they sell other bushings or bump stops if needed? Have they taken the parts and tweeked them to be the best they could be?

I don’t think they provide any of that, they just rode in on the back of DSE and copied the design and went to town manufacturing them in my opinion. If that’s what happened and they are just a rip off of DSE arms being made without the approval of DSE then they have stolen from DSE in my opinion. Would you like them to do that to you if they were your design and you spent many hours making them what they are? I would think way different about this and the price etc if they were a new design that someone has come up with and they are selling them this cheap. I would question quality as most others would the price because it does make you wonder. It’s easy to understand that these can be made and sold for this price and make some money. I think make a very good quality part for the money asked for these. The part that gets me is the people making them have ripped someone else off to do it and if I were DSE I would be pissed. Just think you can now go buy a cloned SS with cloned Pro-touring parts on it and if the seller tells you it’s all the real stuff you’re the one that just got ripped off.

Heres your sign.

;)

Heres your sign.

;)

Ok and heres yours ;) The funny thing is that you jerk offs that think your getting deal on DSE copied arms are the ones getting ripped by the people making them that are riding on the back of DSE and thier hard work. Pocket your cash and live with the fact that you have bought stolen property. People are supporting scum is what it amounts to. Ya I went there!! A thief is a thief no way around that is there!

We are all intitled to our own opinion, but Joe if you only gave $500 for your 67 you ripped someone off yourself!:)

We are all intitled to our own opinion, but Joe if you only gave $500 for your 67 you ripped someone off yourself!:)


more like robbed them...

that 67 is nice!

I didn't expect to touch off this amount of discussion with this, and I certainly didn't expect to be called a thief... LOL...but that's ok ;)...been called worse.

This deals with subjects that I admittedly know little or nothing about, especially in the realm of intellectual property rights, BUT...(here comes the butt monkey )...
Does DSE own a patent on their arms?...do they have exclusive rights to control arms for 67-69 Camaros?...I'm pretty sure they don't. And as I've said before, there are differences. DSE uses Stainless, these don't. DSE's are powdercoated, these aren't.
I also have no idea what the country of origin is. These could be made by someone in the U.S., Europe, Africa...who knows.

Just because someone comes out with a different variation of a part doesn't mean they're stealing intellectual property, so I think you have to be careful with that claim.

Did Flaming River rip off IDIDIT steering columns?... did IDIDIT rip off GM's idea?... if you follow that logic to it's extreme, there would be ONE ball joint available on the market, period. ONE shock. ONE muffler?

It's great that the folks at DSE came out with an innovative modification that is an improvement over stock suspension on these great old cars. Now they have competition in that space. They probably have competition from more than one manufacturer.

Taking a quick look through the latest issue of CHP magazine, I see:
BMR Fabrication...those control arms look VERY close to DSE's design...in fact the lowers appear to be the same part.
Performance Online carries advertises 2 different types, one looks like DSE's.
Heidt's...they look EXACTLY like DSE's.
How about TRZs?...are those too close?
And how about this "Global West" company?...That sounds pretty suspicious to me. Look at their lowers...tell me they didn't rip off DSE?

How can you claim that whoever makes THESE particular arms are ripping off DSE, but give all these other companies a free pass? Would I be a thief if I purchased from one of them?

By that logic, should GM sue the crap out of everyone that's built a Z/28 clone with cheaper parts from China? ;)

The point here is that DSE had competition in the control arm space before these came on the scene. It's up to the individual to decide if these are of a high enough quality to suit their individual needs.

Nope...I'm not a thief, and I don't think I'm a jerk either, at least not because I bought a certain set of control arms...but I did get a pretty good chuckle outta that, Joe :)

Jim

I guess maybe we can say this you get what you pay for. If you pay 1300.00 you can get the DSE arms and Pay for the bragging rites. Or you can Pay for the lower price arms and get what you get. I think the jury is still out but thus far the "word on the street" is you get a pretty solid arm.
Does anyone know if the DSE folks drop by here once and awhile? Maybe they can chime in. I wont hold my breath. (I contacted them directly via their support email address tying to get technical data from about the Quadra link) I not holding my breath waiting for that answer either.. I did hear from tech support on the same questions I asked of the G bar folks.... SO I am questioning two things about DSE

Do they really do the R&D that justifies the cost of their products? If so then why not share the summary data that supports the performance of their products with the market?

What up with their support email broken?


"Let the bodies hit the floor"

Well whom ever the jerk off is that sent me an e-mail for stating my own opinion from some bogus account is what PO'ed me. I can't say who that was because I have no way of knowing so that's where my responce comes from, sorry should have made this clear in the post above.

Jim:
You make all very good points except the fact that these are being called DSE copys and other people selling them on e-bay have been calling them DSE type arms. I don't work for DSE, heck I don't even own any product from from for the same reason alot of people have stated here. It cost more money than I can afford for most stuff all at one time. I save up for stuff like others do.

What burns me up is places like DSE design and make great stuff and then they end up being copied and sold for 1/2 price. Where is the incentive for these places to keep up the cutting edge work or design of new pieces if someone can come along copy it and sell it for 1/2 price. It's an ethics issue to me.

As for my 67.....It's a real 67 Camaro that I paid $500.00 for and not a copy. Ohhh and that was about 13 years ago that I stole it.

And let me appoligize for some harsh words to people here that have bought these.....sorry about that but the person sending the e-mail realy needs to grow up

Wow, interesting thread! From my perspective, DSE always prices their parts very high. Every single thing that I've from them is priced too high for me to buy and most times IMHO they price their parts "stupid high". I'm not sure why that is when their competitors offer comperable parts for less and I'm not even talking about the "knock off" parts. So I doubt that I'll ever buy a single thing from DSE.

That being said I can't really say that I support some dude ripping off their design but I am for some competition as I would like to see camaro parts get a little more competitively priced and affordable as it can cost the average guy a ton of cash to setup a first gen camaro nicely. It's amazing the amount of money that can be dumped into these cars....it's almost sickening if you have the guts to add it all up.

Joe,
No blood, no foul ;) and btw...I didn't send any email. If I have something to say, I'm usually pretty open about it.

This is not a new thing. It's called "first mover advantage". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-mover_advantage

It happens with almost every product that's ever been brought to market. It's the period of time between when you introduce your product to the market, and when someone else introduces their version.

The fact that people chose "DSE" in their ads on Ebay is a testament to the fact that people know who DSE is. But I bet if I called one of the vendors I mentioned and said what is this comparabe to...they'd say it's just like a DSE arm ;)

So we're on different sides of the fence on this one :)...but probably the same on other things.

What a country.

Jim

The problem is that to many companys and just as many people could really give a crap about intregrity and ethics these days, (not talking directly to anyone here on TC or any company, even the ones making these arms) todays socity is all about how much a company or individual can squeeze out everyone for their own benifit and the screw everyone else just to make a quick buck. I can see it happening at some point, someone is going to put DSE stickers on a set of these arms since they look so close and turn the screws to some person that can't or is not able to tell the differance. Just from pirctures I can't? In person....who knows? It will happen to someone.

I can totaly relate to everyone wanting cheaper parts. I hear ya on the airbar set up too!! I have asked some questions about the quadra link and dont get much but the air bar people are very helpfull. I have future plans for an airbar in the rear after many other things are done. I hope they come down in price also.

The DSE stuff is crazy expensive and the part I will be buying first from them of all things is the wiper motor, it hard to justify the expence but bolt in and ready to go and the delay function makes it worth it for me.

Heck I am just one of those people that look at some things in odd way maybe. I don't down load free music and movies, I pay for it all. I don't pirate software, I pay for what I need. I correct stores when the sales slip is wrong in my favor and of course theirs. I work 8 HRS for 8 HRS pay. I don't expect hand outs of any sort. I do shop for deals and come by what ever I buy honestly and what ever I sell I honestly represent and stand behind.

Ok I have taken this thread complety off track and to the e-mailer that sends me little notes of wisdom and closes the account.....man up so a responce can be sent back. The next one I get I will FWD to the Admin so they can track the IP and see who it is. Funny thing is my e-mail is not shown here so we must have talked about something in the past via e-mail.

so...are the arms any good?

anyone get them on drive them, they didnt break or fall off?

whats the skinny!

If DSE spent a lot of $$ in design and research to develope a product, one would think they would protect it with a patent. They could then sit back and and either: let the others knock off their design and attach royalties, or, block the distribution of the copies.

iF they failed to protect their design with patents, they were either foolish or other patents were too similar in design to begin with.

at a minimum they should be able to protect the corpoate logo from use by others selling simlilar products..
\

Here is a thought .... Wonder if these arms are "Seconds" or things that failed QC for non safety related issues. Then DSE of the Company who does the Manufacturing for DSE Whosaled them out.

The material specs don't even match, so no these aren't made by DSE or for DSE.

Tyler

It has come to our attention that imitation Detroit Speed and Engineering control arms are being sold in the marketplace. I want to make it perfectly clear that Detroit Speed does not endorse these control arms. They are not manufactured by Detroit Speed, nor do they contain any Detroit Speed components. Just by reviewing the photographs on the internet, we can clearly identify 12 differences in the upper control arms and 6 differences in the lower control arms. I am sure there would be more if we could disect the arms. My point is they look similar to Detroit Speed control arms but are not.
Good competition is great for the consumer and good for the industry. However, this is not competition. This is a devaluation of our industry and degrades other manufacturers, as well.
At Detroit Speed we place customer service at a high level as well as available inventory that is ready to ship when customers or dealers place orders. We have an Engineering and R&D department, qualtiy control, validation as well as a graphics and marketing team, a purchasing deparment and a sales team. This is in addition to all people at our facility that manufacture the components. They are talented and dedicated people that make quality components day in and day out. This all makes overhead that takes money to pay for, this is not free to anyone. The person that shortcircuits design and testing also shortcircuits quality, reliability, and availability. We support the magazines and internet sites; as well as, shows and events we all attend because we are car people and like to drive, race, build and participate like anyone else. We are at the events to meet people, get feedback, and all of this to improve our business and our end product.
With current products and future products in development, we have had the opportunity to quote overseas. However, Detroit Speed prides itself on products manufactured in the United States. We have made a conscious decision to spend more dollars to manufacture in the United States, so that we can confidently stand behind our products from a quality and reliability standpoint. We have confirmed that many products can cost 10X more to manufacture in the US compared to overseas. However, many of our products are structural components that we will not risk your safety on selling a cheaper part to compete with others.
We know our products are not for everyone. We hope that we will be considered, and that you will consider the level of effort that goes into each and every part we design and manufacture. Either way, we will continue to provide the best customer service, quality, and innovative designs with integrity. We will continue to push the envelope for the industry and stay in front of those who copy.

Kyle Tucker
Detroit Speed

Well said Kyle.

I have been of the position that ripping off other's products is a big no-no. I hope you can squash this issue before it gets out of hand.

Tyler

Well now we have official confirmation as to the fact Detroit Speed goes after the upper echelon of the industry by saying "We know our products are not for everyone." I will not argue Detoit Speed has some very nice products and are exclusive manufacturers of certain products no one else makes. But, as admitted with their high prices they are not for everyone. $400 wheel tubs, $650 roll cages, I would think even manufacturing here in the U.S. these products could be made a little more affordable. If people are paying it, I guess why not keep the prices where they are. I will continue to look for alternatives when possible. I for one don't believe if they don't say Global West or DSE, or whatever that that are automatically inferior. These name brand manufacturers are playing the quality card as that is the only thing they have to stand on to defend their high prices. I am in a similar industry because I'm a Toolmaker, I am well aware of how the game is played with quality and have seen products from both the U.S. and other foreign manufacturers. I know what Tooling costs and I know all about quality control. I work with both departments everyday as a Toolroom supervisor.

Let me be perfectly clear. I have no bone to pick with Detroit Speed or any other manufacturer. All of these companies support our hobby. I am thankful that so many manufacturers are out there innovating new products for our hobby. Healthy competition is good for everyone. As stated before the first to market will always have a competitive advantage. But as other manufacturers come into play the original manufacturer will have to begin defending their own products or competitively lower their price to compete.

Well Said Lindsay!
Couple of things came out.. all of which I am greatful for. I as well as you have no bone to pick with DSE. They have targeted thier market and You and I as well as many here are are simply Not it. I have to give your arument of them playing the Quailty card some merit for no other reason then they also played the customer service card.

I emailed thier tech support over a week ago asking a simple question. I still havent heard back. ...

BTW Tyler is on it 7 mins between DSE and ATS posts... Geese you guys in the same cube ... ;-)

Just kidding

Tech note based on some of the coil-overs being talked about-- One thing to watch that I learned the hard way about 12 years ago... if you run a normal coil-over to the upper shock mount, either stud mount or with a clevis adapter bracket- be careful - the shock mount was not designed to hold the full weight of the front of the car. It can bend (and did in my case) causing a shock end to break. At the time (1996) no kits were available like the current QA1 setup with the tapered coil so I redesigned the upper mounts to a clevis style. (now you'd just buy the DSE coilover conversion kit, similar concept) -Dan

(edit- sorry to interupt the vendor and buyer bashing with tech...) But Kyle, you may have a legal case even without a patent, if they are a real close and intentional copy of your product. I'd pursue it even just to make their life difficult, you've worked hard to get where you are!

Can anyone give a report on the performance of these arms? Anyone using them yet?

At Detroit Speed we place customer service at a high level as well as available inventory that is ready to ship when customers or dealers place orders. We have an Engineering and R&D department, qualtiy control, validation as well as a graphics and marketing team, a purchasing deparment and a sales team. This is in addition to all people at our facility that manufacture the components. They are talented and dedicated people that make quality components day in and day out. This all makes overhead that takes money to pay for, this is not free to anyone. The person that shortcircuits design and testing also shortcircuits quality, reliability, and availability. We support the magazines and internet sites; as well as, shows and events we all attend because we are car people and like to drive, race, build and participate like anyone else. We are at the events to meet people, get feedback, and all of this to improve our business and our end product.
With current products and future products in development, we have had the opportunity to quote overseas. However, Detroit Speed prides itself on products manufactured in the United States. We have made a conscious decision to spend more dollars to manufacture in the United States, so that we can confidently stand behind our products from a quality and reliability standpoint. We have confirmed that many products can cost 10X more to manufacture in the US compared to overseas. However, many of our products are structural components that we will not risk your safety on selling a cheaper part to compete with others.


Kyle Tucker
Detroit Speed[/quote]

I have to agree with Kyle, altho we do not know each other and have never meet, yet. DSE products are of the highest quality, WE strive to match their quality! and we feel we have very high quality parts as well. the cost of doing business in North America is as Kyle stated the reason the product costs more, i have a saying Price,Quality, or Service..... pick any 2.....
if you want to really break it down Speed Tech, DSE, Global West have all really ripped off GM.... after all they designed the arms in the first place. did they not?we have all improved on the original design but they are still copies.
the root of the problem really is Corporate America wanting every last cent of profit form everything, why is oil so expensive i herd that the top 5 US oil companies had 280 BILLION!!!! in PROFIT in 07 that's probably after they hid as much as they could...???? sorry off track

it cost money to make these products it costs even more to develope them.
china's idea of R&D is Receive and Duplicate take that for what its worth.

Hi Blake I think you missed the point . Yep I think we all agree that good and cheap don't go together. What I and others are looking for is the information pertaining to the quality and performance of many of these products that justifies the COST. The absence of this information is a major factor that drives folks to buy the less costly arms like those bring discussed in this thread.
In addition as you mention above GM is getting ripped here a bit. Just look @ the ATS spindles next to a factory C4 spindle. You tell me where they got the ideas from. The fact that both the resellers and manufactures of these products will not provide the empherical DATA that was the output of their R and D makes many wonder if any R&D was preformed @ all.

:beers:

What information are you looking for? most if not all first gen after market arms have additional static caster built in, that is almost a given. most use Del-a-lum or delrin bushings some use stainless cross shafts for looks, i would think the material choice and manufacturing quality is what most are selling???only so many ways to change this part i have seen arms that have mounting bushings that arn't paralel and i have no idea how one would install them?
as for the ATS spindles?? i think it is an excellent option, it addresses many issues. taller to improve the camber curve(if you choose to order it that way) forged aluminum stronger and posibly lighter than stock. larger bearings, built in C5 brake mounts revised outer tie rod location. and if you know how much R&D &$$$ were in that part you would puke. as to where the idea came from.... all ideas are adaptations/improvements of something that already exists. take the subframe market, every manufacturer has a different take on exactly the same thing, there are some things that can not be changed. and where would we be if GM made the car a full frame car?
all manufacturers have to make money, obviously. some position them selves as the cheepest, the most tested, what have you and the nice part is there are many different opinions from buyers some want to be able to say i paid XXXX.00 for my arms and it has XXXXX brand sticker on them, some are proud to say they only paid 400.00 for a set, are they as good? possibly, my question would be what happens if there not? where do you get replacement bushings? who are you going to call seller GHTR%^&*^%FRTY on ebay??? what is he going to do, if you can even talk to him.
i just think you get what you pay for in most cases.
:beers:

The reason you would not recognize the manufacturer name is because it is written in Chinese. I worked in an industry where we had a plant in China, if it is a WOFE (Wholly Owned Foreign Entity) meaning an American Company doing business in China the quality may be OK. Most likely he bought a set from DSE and DHL'ed them to a plant in China. The wall thicknesses of the tubing are an indication of 4mm & 3mm wall tube, the lack of OD spec is also a clue that they are asian. The fact that the bushings are "Delrin Style" and the ball joints "Moog Style", the photos of the low quality corrugated box and the cheasy zip ties tell me they are definately Chinese. The thickness of the tube is pretty good and I am sure the TIG welds are probably OK, the problem is the metallurgy is usually JUNK.

He has only been on Ebay for a little over a year and I can't find any feedback on him in regards to these. I am not saying not to buy them, just you have to question the overall quality, I had over 5 years experience with welded steel assemblies from China, The welds look nice and everything is powdercoated all nice and slick, but beware.

I will weigh in here again as someone with years of experience with Chinese Manufacturing. Let me start by saying that I have NO TIES to any of the gentlemen or companies mentioned in this thread. I do not own and have not used any of their products.

1: It is common practice for a manufacturer to keep his "empirical data" to himself.
Let's face it, I have access to Chromo Tubing, I have a TIG welder, I have access to a Mandrel Bender and a full Machine Shop. If Blake or Kyle were to publish a full set fo Mechanical Drawings and spec's I could whip up a set of control arms in a day or two. Not a good business plan huh?

2: The US and Canada have a free market economy, if these gentlemens prices are too high don't buy them! It is supply and demand, they control the supply, we as consumers control the demand. If we buy at $1,000 a set they will try $1,100 when we stop buying they start lowering prices.

3: It sounds like some people are begrudging someone who worked hard to develop, engineer, build and market a successful product because he (or she) chooses to make a decent profit. I have no doubt that the start of this thread is a Knock Off manufactured in China. It may or may not be of sufficient quality to even warrant the $560.

I currently am restoring my 68' and will cleanup and paint my stock arms and use them until I can afford the "real deal". I have 2 small daughters and a wife who will sometimes ride in the car. I think the few hundred dollars difference is well worth the peace of mind knowing all 4 wheels will stay attached to the car.

I'd like to know too. My alignment guy said to place the caster buttons so that the control arm is shifted toward the rear of the Camaro. My control arm was real close to the upper mount when I offset them like that. I had to grind a small amount off for clearance.

I would start off with the arm offset to the rear as above.
David

Thanks to all for keeping this thread civil.
I'd like to caution those who purchased the arms and intend on using stock disc rotors. The lower balljoint pocket extends downward too far, the lower outer part of this "cup" end will contact the rotor in a bump situation. Early versions of the Hotchkis and Speed Tech arms had the same issues. An angle cut should be made to narrow the outer height of the balljoint socket. Make it even with the balljoint lower end. These arms as-is, will probably clear late model Corvette rotors which have a different offset. Those installing with DRUM brakes will have a HECK of a time, I suggest you convert to discs at least.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/DowntheroadSS/R-UVjzE7laI/AAAAAAAAAgE/WO5v1gmX_Mk/s144/S7000009.JPG

I don't believe arms of this type can be patented and the cost of defending a patent is very expensive. Look at Edelbrock manifolds, they are in a similar situation. Some will see these arms as a cheaper way to have what they want, others will see it as a rip-off of DSE's design and testing work. I think both are valid points. In the end you want to end up with something that is safe, works well, and you can be happy with.
David

I really do hope that these arms are quality parts that can be counted on because we all have familys and it would be tragic to have these arms if they are made in China end up like toys with lead in the paint and tooth paste with gylcole in it. China and it's manufacturing methods are finally coming to light and at what cost? It's nice to have choice of control arm manufactures. I personly choose to paymore for peace of mind. I would pay more for kids toys also if I had choice of knowing a country that manufactured them really gave a hoot about the kid playing with them and kept lead out of the paint. It really makes you wonder what they think of the quality of metal they are using to build these if they are at all.

Thanks to all for keeping this thread civil.
I'd like to caution those who purchased the arms and intend on using stock disc rotors. The lower balljoint pocket extends downward too far, the lower outer part of this "cup" end will contact the rotor in a bump situation. Early versions of the Hotchkis and Speed Tech arms had the same issues. An angle cut should be made to narrow the outer height of the balljoint socket. Make it even with the balljoint lower end. These arms as-is, will probably clear late model Corvette rotors which have a different offset.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/DowntheroadSS/R-UVjzE7laI/AAAAAAAAAgE/WO5v1gmX_Mk/s144/S7000009.JPG

I don't believe arms of this type can be patented and the cost of defending a patent is very expensive. Look at Edelbrock manifolds, they are in a similar situation. Some will see these arms as a cheaper way to have what they want, others will see it as a rip-off of DSE's design and testing work. I think both are valid points. In the end you want to end up with something that is safe, works well, and you can be happy with.
David

Thanks David! I can see exactly what you mean about the lower ball-joint cup. I was installing my pair and by chance I had the upper ball-joint disconnected and the rotor was resting on the lower ball-joint cup at a rather shallow angle. I didn't think much of it at the time so I'm very glad that you made mention of it before I found out the hard way! This is just one of many reasons that make this a great website. Thanks again for sharing that data.

So any reports yet from folks who have installed these?

"Keep hope alive"

I just watched an episode of Dream Car on speed and they has Detroit Speed on it.

Confirmed that everything is made in one facility in North Carolina except the frames. The frames are made in Detroit because there are no presses big enough to make them in North Carolina.

This tells me they keep all the quality control right next to them and when they showed the manufacting area it was spotless. I'll bet it was cleaner than some lunch rooms I have seen over the years. Employee parking showed muscle cars in the lot!

If you get a chance to see it you have to see this and Kyle Tuckers interview. One thing he said was that think think of themselves as a mini car company. They use many of the development tools and practices as the OEM's to design, test and manufacture the parts. Both he and his wife worked for GM and they bring that engineering style to Detroit Speed.

Part of this speaks volumes for what your paying for. It's good to know that money spent with them goes to employe top notch American workers in North Carolina that drive muscle cars and are people just like you and I making a living and wanting a good wage. That takes money and at least they are all getting piece of the pie. I still can't afford the parts they sell but I would be proud to know Americans built them and care about what you bolt on your Camaro.

. Employee parking showed muscle cars in the lot!

.

I am pretty sure most of the R@D was done on there own cars.
Just my guess.

MBHD

So is anybody done with the install of these and driving their car yet?

Pozzi - will I have an issue with Baer brakes with those lower ball joint pockets?

So is anybody done with the install of these and driving their car yet?

Pozzi - will I have an issue with Baer brakes with those lower ball joint pockets?

No problem with the Baer kits, the rotors are offset outboard more than stock rotors.
David

I installed a new set of Hotchkis springs with these tubular arms. As everyone know these arms have a dropped spring pocket. The coils springs were still loose after everything was assembled and bolted up, but after lowered down on the wheels then had pressure on them and setteled in. Anyone else experience this with lowering front springs with tubular arms with a dropped spring pocket. I think my front end dropped a total of 3 inches. I like the stance, but unsure of how the springs will react with the way they orignally fit in.

Im going to order a set. Seems like they are good quality for street use.

OK- so its been several months since many of you have purchased these ebay controls arms...whats the verdict on performace, fit and alignment?

bump Any reviews on these control arms??

BOY!!

Read through this whole SOB just now!

I will ask Kyle straight out!!

Are you making your A-Arms in house or have you sub'd them out?

Yes or no will do fine for an answer unless you are running for public office!!

And the build contract stated that DSE has the rights to them for "X" amount of time and then, after said time, the contractor, to cut a deal to help DSE's up front costs out, can re-pop them so that both you and the contractor come out on top?

DSE ends up w/ a front end time to sell to the high end and to hold tooling and R&D costs down, and later, the contractor recoup's the tooling costs b/c they can make a bunch that they can sell at discount b/c of volume.

Everybody wins imho!!

And Kyle, if what I'm typing is right, Congratulations b/c WE ALL WIN imho!!!

pdq67

BOY!!

Read through this whole SOB just now!

I will ask Kyle straight out!!

Are you making your A-Arms in house or have you sub'd them out?

Yes or no will do fine for an answer unless you are running for public office!!

And the build contract stated that DSE has the rights to them for "X" amount of time and then, after said time, the contractor, to cut a deal to help DSE's up front costs out, can re-pop them so that both you and the contractor come out on top?

DSE ends up w/ a front end time to sell to the high end and to hold tooling and R&D costs down, and later, the contractor recoup's the tooling costs b/c they can make a bunch that they can sell at discount b/c of volume.

Everybody wins imho!!

And Kyle, if what I'm typing is right, Congratulations b/c WE ALL WIN imho!!!

pdq67

I watched something on the speed channel or someplace? that interviewd Kyle. From what I saw, understand and what was said in the interview is "ALL" thier parts are made in house except the subframe. The only tooling big enough to hydro form them was located in Michigan so they are subed out for the forming.
What I saw was an amazing shop that was very clean and a man that's very proud of his company and employees.

Paul,
Did you read this one from Kyle?

It has come to our attention that imitation Detroit Speed and Engineering control arms are being sold in the marketplace. I want to make it perfectly clear that Detroit Speed does not endorse these control arms. They are not manufactured by Detroit Speed, nor do they contain any Detroit Speed components. Just by reviewing the photographs on the internet, we can clearly identify 12 differences in the upper control arms and 6 differences in the lower control arms. I am sure there would be more if we could disect the arms. My point is they look similar to Detroit Speed control arms but are not.
Good competition is great for the consumer and good for the industry. However, this is not competition. This is a devaluation of our industry and degrades other manufacturers, as well.
At Detroit Speed we place customer service at a high level as well as available inventory that is ready to ship when customers or dealers place orders. We have an Engineering and R&D department, qualtiy control, validation as well as a graphics and marketing team, a purchasing deparment and a sales team. This is in addition to all people at our facility that manufacture the components. They are talented and dedicated people that make quality components day in and day out. This all makes overhead that takes money to pay for, this is not free to anyone. The person that shortcircuits design and testing also shortcircuits quality, reliability, and availability. We support the magazines and internet sites; as well as, shows and events we all attend because we are car people and like to drive, race, build and participate like anyone else. We are at the events to meet people, get feedback, and all of this to improve our business and our end product.
With current products and future products in development, we have had the opportunity to quote overseas. However, Detroit Speed prides itself on products manufactured in the United States. We have made a conscious decision to spend more dollars to manufacture in the United States, so that we can confidently stand behind our products from a quality and reliability standpoint. We have confirmed that many products can cost 10X more to manufacture in the US compared to overseas. However, many of our products are structural components that we will not risk your safety on selling a cheaper part to compete with others.
We know our products are not for everyone. We hope that we will be considered, and that you will consider the level of effort that goes into each and every part we design and manufacture. Either way, we will continue to provide the best customer service, quality, and innovative designs with integrity. We will continue to push the envelope for the industry and stay in front of those who copy.

Kyle Tucker
Detroit Speed

I've had it! We need to support what made this country great; Industry and freedom to choose American. I really resent not having a choice in brick and mortar stores now days. Hell, some of the stuff doesn't even say where it's made anymore. What's with that? And where's a smiley face waving our flag?

I have 2 small daughters and a wife who will sometimes ride in the car. I think the few hundred dollars difference is well worth the peace of mind knowing all 4 wheels will stay attached to the car.
AMEN! That says it all for me!

And where's a smiley face waving our flag?

You mean this one...http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m99/billybobdupree/768077c8.gif

ChrisP

WOW ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! I read through all ELEVEN PAGES of this crap and STILL NO ONE HAS ANSWERED the pinnacle question..... WHO HAS INSTALLED THEM AND HOW ARE THEY?

The lack of NON responses to this question is really upsetting. So I guess I have to assume one of three things.. 1. People bought them and are too afraid to put them on their car... 2. People bought them, installed them and are too embarrassed to say they are a piece of crap and a waste of $400. Or 3. People installed them, they failed, crashed and burned, and are lying in a ditch somewhere never to be heard from again...

COME ON GUYS. GIVE THE NEWS ON HOW THESE PERFORM, FIT,ADJUST ETC.... reading these last 11 pages makes me feel like I am listening to a political debate which AVOIDS THE ORIGINAL QUESTION!!


Mark
TOOFUN

WOW ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! I read through all ELEVEN PAGES of this crap and STILL NO ONE HAS ANSWERED the pinnacle question..... WHO HAS INSTALLED THEM AND HOW ARE THEY?

The lack of NON responses to this question is really upsetting. So I guess I have to assume one of three things.. 1. People bought them and are too afraid to put them on their car... 2. People bought them, installed them and are too embarrassed to say they are a piece of crap and a waste of $400. Or 3. People installed them, they failed, crashed and burned, and are lying in a ditch somewhere never to be heard from again...

COME ON GUYS. GIVE THE NEWS ON HOW THESE PERFORM, FIT,ADJUST ETC.... reading these last 11 pages makes me feel like I am listening to a political debate which AVOIDS THE ORIGINAL QUESTION!!


Mark
TOOFUN

Man I read that and laughed so hard I spit on my computer screen!!

I have installed mine with no major issues. Only issues I had was ride heigth (Hotchkis front springs with the lower pocket on lower a-arm) , but I got a set of hotchkis upper isolators that they use with their tubular system and it bumped it up about a half inch. Also the offset caster cam inserts need a little fitting for proper install. I have not had time yet to get alignment done and I need to change tire profile up front for more added clearance( have 245/60R15's all around). I had installed a completely new brake system and just got that squared away Sunday ( Standard front drum to disc conversion). Maiden voyage went fine, but since I have done a 4 speed conversion and the complete suspension rebuild, I was looking for any major bugs. I will provide as much details as possible as this suspension is fine tuned. all I can say is it already feels like a world of difference with the new brakes and close ratio steering box.

I have to say overall the quality appears good. I know there has been alot of debate over the a-arms, but I have no complaints so far. For the past 10 years I have been restoring 80's vintage sportbikes and do put quality and safety over cheap costs when it comes to aftermarket parts.

Just my 2 cents

I don't care it the parts are exactly the same. It's just wrong to take someones part, send it China (or wherever) and have copies made.

Of course the company can sell it cheap since they didn't have to invest in any engineering. It's just wrong from a moral sense.

Plus what you're really doing when you buy a product like that is helping put fellow Americans out of work. Why? to save a few bucks. If the cycle goes on long enough then the true innovators close up shop and all we're left with it the overseas copies, and NO new designs since they don't have anyone to copy any longer.

11 page's of good info IMO ,and did it start with a link to E bay ,asking about quality and functionality of cheap repo's of Detroit speed A Arm's was that it !!!! I don't think that question can be answered yet ,I think it would take a conpairson of a true Detroit speed arm and the repo on a CMM measuring machine to see how close they are and Xray to see quality of welds ,the cost of the CMM is well over couple hunderd thousand ,have one here at work and the x ray of welds well I am sure that machine is not cheap so I would just spend the extra couple hundred get the real ones ,they have done all the R & D work . I spent 500.00 to get my upper's to me from Speed Tech in Vancover,I will always do my best to support North Amarican goods ,before having to go offshore ,sometimes you just can't get away from it. Happy Motoring:)

Do we know these are made in China or even overseas. I haven't seen anything anywhere saying they were. Maybe they are, maybe some guy makes these from his own machine shop. Maybe he took a pair of DSE's and said I can make these and sell them for a reasonable price. I think all the speculation is a little early. Until we know for sure how they pan out I think we should all just calm down a little. Let the tests happen and let the comsumers decide. If they are junk then people will stop buying them and the guy will quite making or importing them. That simple.

Wrooster

Do we know these are made in China or even overseas. I haven't seen anything anywhere saying they were. Maybe they are, maybe some guy makes these from his own machine shop. Maybe he took a pair of DSE's and said I can make these and sell them for a reasonable price. I think all the speculation is a little early. Until we know for sure how they pan out I think we should all just calm down a little. Let the tests happen and let the comsumers decide. If they are junk then people will stop buying them and the guy will quite making or importing them. That simple.

Wrooster

I hear what your saying but if they are junk and one person is hurt due to quality all the money saved by all that people that have bought them means nothing to the person that was hurt and how does word get out that they have issues? I don't think a factory in China or some back yard machinist is going to be sending out any refund checks or offers to buy back product. To me R&D and reputation of the company means everything with this type of part. If they do fail or have issues of some sort the money saved can double to money spent. Saving money on a part like this just scares me....that's just my opinion. A valve cover is a little different.

Are there no good welders in China?

I'd hate to buy one of their cars?
I'd hate to go across a bridge?
I'd hate to go in a skyscraper?

I wish the powers that be would close this out for Gods sake. Talk about beating a dead horse!!!!!!!!