ok. much better now. Discovered swapping the 5 & 7 plug wires causes some real loud backfiring...lol.

I now have a "kinda stable" idle. Still in open loop with timing locked out at 30.

Mixture was rich, 10:1 showing on the autometer wideband. I started leaning out the entire table by 10% at a time.

As I got leaner than 13:1 the idle started hunting around a lot.

Currently at "Average" 14.3:1, idle hunting from 900 - 1300 rpm, with some slight misfiring going on.

Any suggestions on where to go next appreciated.

Considering:
1: work on my son's pinewood derby car for a while.
2: readjust the valves.
3: Set static timing to 10 degrees and give the ECU timing control.

Garage Cam (http://71.194.154.8:12000/) is on.
user id is "team"
p/w is "camaro"

Yep, 5-7 swap is easy to get by one.

I would set static at 10°.
Maybe put a hand vacuum pump with a T and a clamp on the manifold side so you could control the MAP sensor. With vacuum going up and down, MAP sensor is also, ECU changing fuel pulse, I suspect.

But then, working on son's racer could be a good stress reliever and clearer of thoughts pending.

Is the cursor hitting several boxes? I generally try to get the entire idle area blocked out until I get the idle where I want it. In other words, it may idle mostly in one cell, but the cells surrounding it will all be highlighted and changed as one. If it even touches the edge of another cell it's "borrowing" the numbers from it, which can cause wild rpm swings.

I like to allow the computer to control the timing, especially at idle. I get the a/f right first. By the way, a thought on this. Do not get hung up on the numbers. Your particular cam/intake/engine combo may not be happy idling at 14.7:1. Give it what it wants, it will make settling it down much easier. Many of my engines would not idle happily in the 14:1 a/f range, yet you richen the idle to say 13.5 they were noticeably smoother, vacuum came up, etc. Give them what they want.

Back to idle timing. Once you get the a/f to a happy spot, with all the boxes the same number that it's hitting, start on idle timing. I usually want at least 20 degrees at idle in the main timing map. Again, keep all the boxes it's idling in the same, as if it hits a box with a higher timing number it makes the idle speed fluctuate. I also like to let the computer use timing compensation at idle, up to 8-10 degrees usually depending on how far off the actual idle rpm is from desired. This really steadies the idle rpms.

One other thing, once you have the engine up and fully warmed, you need to set the throttle blades properly, or at least verify that they are set properly. With it fully warmed shut off timing compensation at idle, and command a real low rpm number, like 500 rpm. This will force the idle air control to shut fully and the only air holding the idle speed is the throttle blades. Set the blades to hold the minimum idle speed you want fully warmed, just like with a carb. Reset or check your tps setting as it will likely move. Then turn the idle timing compensation back on, and re-enter the correct idle speed in the computer. Now you have full use of the iac which can help tremendously with idle speed fluctuation. If the blades are not open enough the iac is having to be open too much just trying to get your desired idle rpm, and is useless for what it is supposed to be doing. This is very common.

Jody

I'll richen her up until she stops hunting around, then let her get all the way warm, I've barely let the temp gauge go over 150 yet.

Then I'll set the reference timing right and give the ECU timing control.

She used to idle at 14.5:1 smooth as a cadilac, 'course that was with a carb, different heads, different manifold, and a hydraulic flat tapet cam with 7 flat lobes!

I'm still kinda wonering about the valve adjustment, I've never in my life got hydraulic lifters right without running them with the motor idling.
__________________

fyi, this years pinewood derby car will be "SpongBob Squarepants!!"

well moving right along...

I found my backfiring was caused by having the 5 & 7 plug wires switched. :clonk:
Correcting that helped a lot.

Figured out my computer issues with some help, and also tamed my overactive idle air control.

I set the reference timing to 10 degrees, and gave timing control to the ECU.

ECU timing gave me a startup issue I didn't have before.
I got the teenagers to lift, and we put the hood back on.
Trimmed a 1/4" off the air cleaner stud so it wouldn't hit the hood.

And I Put the top down. :hurray::hurray::thumbsup:

I've been getting some good help from zwede on chevytalk. http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?fid/35/tid/183542/pid/1378871/post/last/#LAST

I've been reading along with the threads here and over there. Congratulations Jim and welcome to the EFI club!

welcome to the EFI club!
Thanks for the ticket, Paul!

Long road trip today, got nothing done in the garage.
Next hangup that needs to be fixed is the coolant temp input to the ECU. I tried to piggyback off my autometer sender, but that's not gonna work. The a/m sender is 300 ohms at operating temp, the c950 wants about 40 or something.

Don't wanna add any more wires, so here's the plan:
But the correct (80-90 chevy TPI) sender and install it in the head in place of the idiot light sender, and connect that wire.
Pull the dash again.... cut the wire for the temp light, and run the sender wire to the ECU.
Run a wire from the fan control output on the ecu to the temp idiot light, then I'll be able to program turnon temp.

I'll try to get this done tomorrow. Not having a temp input is really making the ecu unhappy.

of course I gotta post some pics.
Anyone see any EFI in there?
http://home.comcast.net/~Jimragtop2/2008engine/done1.jpg
Here maybe?
http://home.comcast.net/~Jimragtop2/2008engine/done2.jpg

Oh wait, there it is!
http://home.comcast.net/~Jimragtop2/2008engine/done3.jpg

Jim, looks great, how do you like your Wilwood M/C?

Thanks Don, from you that's a major compliment!

I like the master. It's a 7/8" bore, the pedal is as light as power, but with full manual feedback, very progressive and easy to modulate. It doesn't run out of stroke either, it will lock all four with a hard push.

Jim: When you posted that you gave the timing control to the ECU, does that include the idle control, too? I'm curious because my idle RPM settled down when I did that, but the motor will die when first started - but only when it's dead cold. Also, do you , indeed, have a TKO 500? Please let me know how the tuning goes because I've asked some questions on the Chevy Talk site about off-idle stumble. I have the feeling that if the Camaro had an automatic (instead of the TKO500) that it wouldn't be a problem. Todd

Well, tonight I had some fun. This guy on chevytalk known as z-man wrote this lil program he call copilot. After giving up on trying to tune manually without a copilot in the car, in the dark, can't even see the keys on the laptop, I fired that lil bugger up and went for a cruise.

I could FEEL the motor waking up as copilot did her magic on the fuel map!

I'd hold a steady acceleration and witch the wideband gauge... it took about 3 seconds to settle down at 14:1 from whatever crazy number it started out at. This thing was tuning my fuel map all by itself!

I even got on it a couple times, she sounds GOOOD.

And yes, Todd, tko 500 w/ 3.08 gear.

Changes before tonights run included typing in the AFR target table from the WB502 map (don't ask me why that one, it just looked good) and I copied in zwede's (from chevytalk) spark map table, again, it looked good, about what I ran with my old setup.

I was having a lot of... I dunno, that nasty jerking you get in a stick car when you try to putter along with the revs too low ('cept they weren't too low) but copilot cleared that up but quick, so it musta been a fuel issue. No stumble off idle at all, but I was pretty fat down low.

Ugliest problem right now is she tends to quit if I just kick the clutch in coming up to a stop. Kinda annoying but no big deal right now.

Ugliest problem right now is she tends to quit if I just kick the clutch in coming up to a stop. Kinda annoying but no big deal right now.

not sure what Holley calls it but they have a table that controls how fast the iac closes down. FAST calls it throttle follower. Basically, once you leave idle the iac has a "park" position it sits at until the throttle is closed again. There is a map to adjust how fast it allows the idle speed to drop. Yours needs to be slowed down, not allowing the idle speed to drop so rapidly, and your dying issues will go away.

Jody

Well, tonight I had some fun. This guy on chevytalk known as z-man wrote this lil program he call copilot. After giving up on trying to tune manually without a copilot in the car, in the dark, can't even see the keys on the laptop, I fired that lil bugger up and went for a cruise.

I could FEEL the motor waking up as copilot did her magic on the fuel map!

I'd hold a steady acceleration and witch the wideband gauge... it took about 3 seconds to settle down at 14:1 from whatever crazy number it started out at. This thing was tuning my fuel map all by itself!

I even got on it a couple times, she sounds GOOOD.

Sweet!! I've been thinking about trying that out, thanks for the feedback!


Ugliest problem right now is she tends to quit if I just kick the clutch in coming up to a stop. Kinda annoying but no big deal right now.

Do you think that it has to do with the clutch or more because the throttle plates close? I know in my motor adjusting the throttle plates really helped as when they slap shut if there isn't enough air getting through the motor will struggle and/or die. Just a fraction of a turn too tight or too loose can have a large impact.

I've got the throttles set for a 650 rpm idle, which she will do. ECU is set for 700, and IAC position at idle is around 12.

Right now, I have the minimum IAC position (throttle follower) set to zero below 48 tps, I've been told doing that triggers some sort of "idle fix patch" in the holley software. Idle TPS is 32. I've been getting conflicting info on this "fix" tho, and the next time I take her out, I'm gonna open the IAC min a bit.

I may disable decel fuel cutoff for now, too.

It's definitely a "this happens when I kick the clutch in" thing. If I downshift to second, and don't push the clutch in till 1000 rpm, she never stalls. If I'm going 30 in second or third, kick the clutch in and go to neutral, the rpm's drop like a stone, I can "see" the IAC close on the screen, and the motor dies.

Not real worried about it yet, to me it comes under "fine tuning" and I ain't there yet, gotta get the rest of my fuel map squared away first.

I've got the throttles set for a 650 rpm idle, which she will do. ECU is set for 700, and IAC position at idle is around 12.

Right now, I have the minimum IAC position (throttle follower) set to zero below 48 tps, I've been told doing that triggers some sort of "idle fix patch" in the holley software. Idle TPS is 32. I've been getting conflicting info on this "fix" tho, and the next time I take her out, I'm gonna open the IAC min a bit.

Irregardless of the IAC position at idle, your idle should drop maybe 50 RPMs when you cover the IAC hole at warm idle that's where I set my throttle blades.

Personally I wouldn't use the fix unless I was sure that I needed the fix. I don't need the fix with my setup so I set the lower values to what I need them to be for best idle and decel recovery. Those were the two most difficult things for me to tune on every EFI setup, smooth idle and decel recovery...The rest is easy, especially with a wideband O2.


It's definitely a "this happens when I kick the clutch in" thing. If I downshift to second, and don't push the clutch in till 1000 rpm, she never stalls. If I'm going 30 in second or third, kick the clutch in and go to neutral, the rpm's drop like a stone, I can "see" the IAC close on the screen, and the motor dies.

Out of curiosity, is the AFR rich or lean when this happens?

[QUOTE=JimM;958710]Well, tonight I had some fun. This guy on chevytalk known as z-man wrote this lil program he call copilot. After giving up on trying to tune manually without a copilot in the car, in the dark, can't even see the keys on the laptop, I fired that lil bugger up and went for a cruise.

Hi, Jim: I saw Z-man's co-pilot (on Chevy Talk) ,also, and I'm glad that it has worked for your car. When I get back to working on the Camaro, I'll try following in your footsteps. Thanks for reporting what you found out! Todd

Damn Jim - I need an Accel guy like your Holley guy.

Out of curiosity, is the AFR rich or lean when this happens?

I don't remember. 99% of the "incidents", I was turning, either rolling around a stop sign or into my driveway.
I "saw" the IAC drive to zero (as currently programed) but after that...

...I was coping with a sudden loss of power steering complicated by curbs and trees straight ahead!

Jim,, I have never run this type of throttle body injection, is that the IAC behind the carb, near the dist? Does this system control your dist timing as well? I had a Edlebrock Multiport Proflow unit, it had the airhorn like yours but injectors on manifold ports. IAC (intake air control)?
Looking at your post-0-meter, you are not far from 18K .

The thing on the back of the throttle body is the fuel pressure regulator. The IAC is the black thing with the connector on it in the front, shows pretty clear on the third pic in this post.

And yes, it controls the timing too.

It's all exactly the same as a holley port injection system, ecxept the regulator and injectors are on the throttle body.

[QUOTE=JimM;952401]of course I gotta post some pics.
Anyone see any EFI in there?

By the way, great pictures! It looks like a lot of thought and hours went under that hood - not to mention a few dollars! Todd

I don't remember. 99% of the "incidents", I was turning

Hmmm....funny as that happened to me too. Either applying the brakes hard (as I have a hydroboost) or turning sharply. Wonder if the PS pump loads the engine or something...:confused:

I think it was just lifting quickly, she was perfectly happy decelerating in gear.

I checked the table, she was idling at 48 kpa, IAC at 32, and I had the min for that cell and the 2 to the right at zero. I put them at 30, it's MUCH better now.

Thanks Todd, yes a lot of work and a certain amount of coin, no doubt.

Jim, let us know how much better your gas milage improves. I am getting about 22 since installing the TKO. When I went from carb to Edlebrock Proflow on the 57 with same gearing , milage jumped from about 16 to little over 20, great for cruising. Now if your system or the Speedteck gets you up there or higher, this will be great and I will be looking at it.

It's not the "system" that gets you the mileage, it is the tuning you do and can do with a system. Without a wideband and software that allows you to get into the tables, you can't lean it out from what is preset or 14.7:1 if closed loop with a narrow band 02. With wb02 and software like Holley's or FAST, you can keep leaning cruise out and check your mileage as well as dial in timing.

You can do the same with a carb and mech distributor if you have the time and tools and patience. It is just harder with a carb.

It's not the "system" that gets you the mileage, it is the tuning you do and can do with a system. Without a wideband and software that allows you to get into the tables, you can't lean it out from what is preset or 14.7:1 if closed loop with a narrow band 02. With wb02 and software like Holley's or FAST, you can keep leaning cruise out and check your mileage as well as dial in timing.

You can do the same with a carb and mech distributor if you have the time and tools and patience. It is just harder with a carb.

I do believe the batch feed fuel is not as good as multiport feed or injector fed. To me it just floods the manifold with fuel , waiting for intake to open and fill cly up Vs. an injector firing just enough fuel at the correct moment into that cly . Not saying tuning does not play a part . Surely if you measured fuel batch fed Vs. injector fed , the injected uses less fuel?

Jim (Doug, too): I got Z-Man's CoPilot loaded to my laptop and will give the tuning a try soon. (Lots of rain in Oregon). I hope the tuning will help get rid of the stumble problem you guys have helped me with. It looks like Z-Man has done an incredible job, and I'm sure both he and CoPilot are a lot smarter than I'll ever be. Todd

Jim (Doug, too): I got Z-Man's CoPilot loaded to my laptop and will give the tuning a try soon. (Lots of rain in Oregon). I hope the tuning will help get rid of the stumble problem you guys have helped me with. It looks like Z-Man has done an incredible job, and I'm sure both he and CoPilot are a lot smarter than I'll ever be. Todd

As long as your O2 sensor can accurately "sense" your target AFR/voltage his program will work fine. I tried it with a narrowband O2 sensor and, well the narrowband just can see much past .45 volts. With wideband it works much better.

Thanks, Paul. I got frustrated with the narrow band O2 sensor on my Camaro quite a whike ago & switched it over to WB. I'm hoping that the CoPilot will be "just the ticket" 'cause Z-Man sure did a great job of putting it together! Todd

Thought I'd pull this back up again.

I've been struggling with communications problems with the laptop... a newer machine with no serial port. Using a usb to serial adapter, and the c950 just doesn't like it much. Lots of communication errors, zapping entire tables to all zeros, fun stuff like that.

I scored an old laptop on ebay for $93 shipped. Its got a serial post and windows 98, should get along with the holley s/w just fine. Unfortunately I left the courtesy lights on last week, so she's sitting on the battery charger.

Now if only the weather would turn, I could get some tuning done!

Jim: I still haven't been able to "break through" the stumbles yet, and CoPilot still hasn't worked quite right as it seems to run the fuel map blocks either too far down ot too far up. I looked at power & grounds for problems, but they seem O.K., so I'm going to have to think of something else. Hope your tuning goes well once you get some good weather. Todd

CoPilot still hasn't worked quite right as it seems to run the fuel map blocks either too far down ot too far up.

When I tried it, that's what I noticed as well. The software seems to focus on one specific cell when in reality the ECU could be getting fuel from mutiple cells....like halfway between two RPM or MAP settings.

Here is something i ran into with the holley efi ecu boxes.
The holley boxes can get very sensitive by magnetic interference!
Move your box around especialy where it is mounted at.Move it away from where it is mounted.
And see if it changes the way it runs.

interesting. Mine is under the passenger seat, shouldn't be any interference there.

Still haven't got back to it. I did try the "new old" laptop in the garage once, and it seems to talk "c950" really well. I ran it for 30-45 minutes, and didn't once lose comms or get multiple cells selected, and no "runtime error 6's" That amount of time without a comm problem is a big breakthough, so I'm hopeful.

I had to order more ram for that thing, poor baby only came with 16 megs! will bring it to max, all of 80 would you believe, and then I should be able to open more than one window at a time! Damned thing is dawg slow tho.

The last time I was out (using the "old new" laptop, I saw copilot doing wierd things to some cells too. It would drive one to zero, and the one avove it to 30, when really they both shoulda been about 20.

After that, I started datalogging, and using copilot to analyze my datalogs and upgate the fuel map. Not sure if that was goodm was getting comm errors out the ying yang, and datalogger would quit after a minute or 2 and I wouldn't notice cause I was watching the yellow lines and shifting gears.

Got warmer today, but rainy. Supposed to be nice Saturday, hope to get serious on this again. Maybe that ram will come in?

Jim: I still haven't been able to "break through" the stumbles yet,
How much timing you got in er Todd?

I'm wondering about those stumbles. My AFR is all over the place, but the throttle response is great always.

I'm running about 24 degrees at idle. 36 at high rpm / map, 52 at cruise map.

You got a lot of timing at idle.
Here are some ideas:
Does it ping when you accelerate?
Do you have an msd knock sensor?
Did you look at your timing graph slope?
You can smooth the graph out with your mouse pointer.

After struggling for 2 weeks with what I thought was a close matched starter map, I started from scratch with a new base map, wbtbi7305.... no idea what it is or what it's for, but very nice so far. It's a little rich, but that's a heck of a lot better than a lot lean.
The spark curve is very conservative, and I'm leaving it alone while I fine tune the fuel.

Drove her to work twice this week, including today, so I'm officially back on the road.

Time to shop for sticky tires, these ain't gonna last long, anything over 1/4 throttle will haze em in first, half throttle smokes em in second!

Where can I get a good deal on Nitto 555r's?

best place i found to get tires is discount tire direct
http://www.discounttiredirect.com/direct/home.do
don't forget the direct part or you won't get as good a deal.

Gratz Jim, Sounds like you may finally be on track. Id be interested if you can keep your foot out of it and post some MPG ratings. Your post has swayed me a bit towards Retrotek, but then maybe Someday we can get Fred to post where hes at with that.

Glad your on the road!!

How much timing you got in er Todd?

I'm wondering about those stumbles. My AFR is all over the place, but the throttle response is great always.

I'm running about 24 degrees at idle. 36 at high rpm / map, 52 at cruise map.

Jim: It probably seems like I forgot your question, but it's been tough lately. Between other cars, broken MRI scanners, and vacation, the Camaro stumble has been put away for a while. But, if you're still interested, minimum timing is 18 deg. and max is 43. Same answer as yours about AFR, but it responds to throttle just great above the "stumble zone". I think cruise MAP is generally lower than yours (from the datalogger) at an average of about 33. RPM is 2200 at that point, and MAP does move around - as does everything else. Sorry for the slow response --- Todd

I've had my C950 and the Co-Pilot program for a while and used the combination a fair amount with my "new" laptop that had no serial connector - forcing me to use a USB-Serial adapter. I got fairly erratic datalogs Link (http://=http//www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/186520/), and erratic Co-Pilot readings, with adjacent cells on the fuel map being reported as way too rich and way too lean. In other words, results that defied logic. I tried three different USB to Serial adapters with similar results.

Figuring there was no problem that couldn't be solved by the application of cubic money, I purchased a $200 Ebay laptop with a serial connector that had recently come off a corporate lease (watch Ebay sellers, they often confuse the 15 pin video connector with a 9 pin serial connector), stuck 1G of ram in it and tried it for the first time today.

WOW! Beautiful datalogs and utterly believable and consistent Co-Pilot datalog analysis recommendations. I haven't yet tried the active tuning - I want to see good and consistent results from analyzing datalogs - but I am finally confident that I might get this thing tuned.

Thanks, Mike: Between the serial port on my (older style) laptop, and Z-Man's promise to tweak CoPilot, maybe some progress can be made. Can't rain in Oregon all the time, can it?

Thought I'd pop this back up (rather than just tack onto Fred's thread like I was considering) cause it's been a good while since I updated.

The good news is after a few tries, I founds a Holley base map that works really well for me. Filename is WBTBI7503.

Car's running great, a lil rich but very driveable.

Pulsewidth at idle was really low (4bbl TBI with 85lb injectors) so I dropped the fuel pressure to 16 psi from 21. That helped with the rich, too.

This darned usb to serial adapter has been a real struggle. I cannot get a valid datalog, ever, and half the time when I flash the ecu it corupts the data.

Last week I ordered a Dell Latitude 531. It has a serial port! I'm expecting it next week.

I've been driving her a lot. Did a 3 hour run last week (1.5 hr each way, with an hour stop) No problems at all. No sign of fuel heating up either. Next time I"ll take the IR gun and shoot some readings after she's good and hot.

Ran the tank down to E on the gauge. Did see the fuel pressure bounce a couple times, though it didn't affect how she was running. Took 15 gallons to fill her up. Not bad for an external pump, stock pickup, and no baffles.

But JIM!! What'll she do??:confused:

I've finally got mine running decently. I took it up the local mountain road Sunday morning and it flat scoots. I'm still working on AE enrichment (it tends to go a little lean when I roll into the throttle) and I need to work on fuel economy; but all-in-all (and in very sharp contrast to where I was a month ago), I'm pretty happy with it.

JimM's recommendation of a much leaner starting map, the laptop with an actual serial port and the Co-Pilot program to analyze logs (I don't think I'll ever run it live) has made a huge difference. Also thanks to CarlC who has done some tuning for me while we've headed up to Newcomb's Ranch.

My plan is to install and hook up a knock sensor (I'm running 11:1, so worry a bit) and then try a run up the coast (800-2,000 miles depending on how many kids I visit) and do a lot of logging and tuning.

But JIM!! What'll she do??:confused:
2-3 times more traction limited than before?
Damned car flat scoots, can't wait to get back on the track (After that 3000 mile run to Yellowstone and back!)

Word from Dell is my new laptop with a serial port shipped last Friday, so I should be able to do some serious tuning soon.

2-3 times more traction limited than before?
Damned car flat scoots, can't wait to get back on the track (After that 3000 mile run to Yellowstone and back!)

Word from Dell is my new laptop with a serial port shipped last Friday, so I should be able to do some serious tuning soon.
Let's see, Texas to Illinois. Yeah, Thursday. My new map will be here by then too.
By the way, speaking of 'what'll it do'; Software that I was linked-to from TC says with my 60' times I'm doing 0-60 in 3.49 seconds. Not bad for a sixties muscle car.:thumbsup: Stock of course.

My newly rebuilt 383 is running great and ready to take back to the track.....but DAMN it is HOT here!!!!!