I am going to throw this out there for those who are interested in plans for a body jig. I work for a design house and have access to everything I would need to generate actual C size drafting plans. What this means is a do it yourself jig with all of the material requirements and photos of the jig under construction. After looking at the post from Carl B ( 68 VT ) I thought I would put a feeler out for all of those that are doing a frame off build. I have a copy of the Fisher book and dimensional drawings of where the mount points needs to be. If another member is already doing this and wants to share design ideas then P/M me and will talk. I want to make this clear that I am not trying to make a business out of this or make claims that I can not deliver on. I am in this for the love of the hobby and what a Camaro means to me...
If I get enough interest in this jig I will pursue it till the end and post back with the results.

Joe

I would definitely be interested. Any "ball park" ideas of the costs involved building one?

Using the post that got me started on this Carl spent $300 for the steel. My plans are for a base jig that you would add the floor pan,firewall,,frame rails,,trunk pan. Then a front jig that you add for the inner cowl and pillars so you can mate the top section to the pan. this is what I have been seeing on the jigs that I have looked at. Once I get this on paper I will give it to the design group I work with. They can figure out how much metal it will take to create both jigs.

Believe it or not it was funny talking to the design group about this when our current project has to do with outer space. I guess you would have to know the people I work with to get it.

A jig would be an excellent idea. The only thing I would add, is to make it adjustable so other makes or brands like chevelles etc. could also be used on it I have AutoCad and pro-e here at home so let me know if you need assistance.

This is pretty interesting, and I don't even have a camaro. You mentioned $300 for steel.

Heres some things I'm thinking about, and I am not trying to be critical.

As far as the initial base for the jig, if you build it wherever, how much flex if any will it have, for instance taking your jig, then moving it to another building with an irregular out of level floor, I would think the base would have to have a lot of thought put into it.

Then the other thing to look at, if you build it to factory dimensions, once you build the body, will it matter if you put a small or big block in it as far as weight, and also the weight of the transmission, and type of body support donuts, what effect will it have on the panel gaps, in particular the door gaps.

Maybe this won't really matter that much, just throwing a few things out there.

Something else to think about.

This is not directly related to what your proposing to do, but thought I should throw this out to think about.

Back when the cars were new, a lot of them were driven in the winter, and we put snow tires on them and sometimes put extra weight in the trunk.

Every once in a while you would see a car that had a problem with the paint cracking around the area where the quarter panel met the roof, I wonder if this was part of the problem.

I also wonder about full body floors with the rockers and everything in one piece, what does this do to the body, will it have less flex, does it matter, I don't have a clue.

I could be wrong here, but my line of thinking, if you build a body jig, it should be made adjustable, so you can take the preloaded car as it sets, then adjust the jig to fit that stance, like several legs on the jig, to raise it up or down. If you make the jig so it can be dissasembled, then it could be transported to different areas.

If you build a body off a specific jig, then bolt it on a frame, say maybe poly body mounts, then you put an expensive paint job on it, what will happen when you drive this car over uneven railroad tracks or whatever, will cracks in the paint start showing up, maybe not. I don't know if the original thicker body supports and thinner floor pans have any effect on any of this.

I have brought up a lot of hypothetical situations here, that might not mean anything, but once the body is made and torqued down to the frame, what is going to happen after it flexes itself into a kind of natural weight.

there is quite a bit of weight in all the glass in a car, keep that in mind.

I guess after all these what ifs I just put down, some suggestions should also be in order.

Build your jig so it can dissasembled and slid under the car, use several legs that have height adjustment, get accurate measurements of the height of each body mount from the floor, then mark locations on the floor where the jig will set. Then you have duplicated the way the car sets pre-loaded, then unbolt the body and build it to those heights.

Anyway, just trying to help out here.

Rob

It would seem you are best off with a dedicated jig for just Camaros that is welded solid and braced. If you make it adjustable, guaranteed there will be some drift at the anchor points and it won't take much to throw the whole thing off.

It would seem that the main design requirement aside from everything being in the correct position in space is that there is no drift in the jig itself.

alan

i'm interested....

I am also very interested in having one..but I also agree that it should NOT be adjustible for anything else..Camaro Only......

Believe it or not it was funny talking to the design group about this when our current project has to do with outer space. I guess you would have to know the people I work with to get it.
Rocket Scientests! Great Idea, my car is past the need but I'm sure it would help others. Please remember that steel costs vary across the nation.

Jeff

I'm interested as well. I have a 68 convert. that needs floors and trunk, so a jig would be a great thing to have.

If these rocket scientists will take this project on,:thumbsup: it will be a great opportunity for us to learn a lot.

Rob

How acurate must these things be :confused: I made 2 of these last weekend.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v604/rodent4/IMG_0812.jpg

How acurate must these things be :confused: I made 2 of these last weekend.



No....you made a rotisserie.......we are talking about a jig to build the car from ground up starting with just framerails, then a floorpan, then the trunkpan, then the firewall, and then mating the upper portion of the old shell with the new section. In a rotisserie, you have to cut out 1 piece at a time of those and replace them.


**BTW though........I like your construction there!! :) :)

I am glad to see this project taking on some legs. Just to sum up for those that want to do a ground up build using a jig. My intent is to create one that is durable enough so the jig will not twist. Also have the ability to be mobile with level adjusters. Here is the kicker that i threw at the design group,,,all materials used must be simple enough that only require 30 to 45 degree cuts on the steel. The adjustable leveler design must be a simple one with no need for any special order parts. In laymens terms build a jig with materials that anyone can get at there local Home Depot/Metal supply house.

Joe

I'm interested, I don't have a need for a jig a present, but I can see it coming. :yes:

Rob, I'm in a bit of a rush right now but let me respond quickly.

Features and items the jig I built is based on

- Level floor pan
- locate firewall and cowl panel
- align upper shell to lower pan
- locating center line from front to back to measure off
- corners of jig have adjusters for leveling when installing outer sheet metal
- wheels are bolted on and can be lifted with an intermediate bracket for transport
- door sill part of the the jig splits in half or you wouldn't be able to lower shell on to car
- designed on ability to work around and space for tools needed ( weld, grind, drill, etc.)
- height had to be low enough during installation of upper quarters and roof panel
- had to have space to enter bottom of jig to work on car

I also don't have any fancy equipment so based jig on simple cuts and design. There is more that can be added to the jig, but for me I don't think it is necessary.

Problems and Flaws with using a jig

- overkill and not necessary for just one car
- some will say wrong way to build
- when done where to keep
- accuracy of jig will not match replacement panels reason for centering line
- replacement sheet metal is off not allowing for fixed mounting points ex. rockers where
aligned by outer line height to jig by laying level across jig and measuring up.
- jig was built level all the way across not just by measurements, making it very time
consuming
- built around access to a two post lift


Most of these cars where never straight to begin with, it depends on what you want to achieve. I try to build my cars as straight as possible but I don't know if it's so necessary. I think we might have an obsession with these cars and try for better than new or what GM had even planned for these cars. When all is said and done it's just a car right??

IF there are any questions or if I can help, let me know.

No....you made a rotisserie.......we are talking about a jig to build the car from ground up starting with just framerails, then a floorpan, then the trunkpan, then the firewall, and then mating the upper portion of the old shell with the new section. In a rotisserie, you have to cut out 1 piece at a time of those and replace them.


**BTW though........I like your construction there!! :) :)

Thanks for the clarification :)

Carl, thanks for the very good explanation, and you brought up some very valid points. Like this one.
================================================== =======

Most of these cars where never straight to begin with, it depends on what you want to achieve. I try to build my cars as straight as possible but I don't know if it's so necessary. I think we might have an obsession with these cars and try for better than new or what GM had even planned for these cars. When all is said and done it's just a car right?

================================================== ========

Maybe I can add a little bit more, on what I'm thinking. I'm into the overkill mode on the car I'm restoring, and sometimes I think I shouldn't have gone the route I'm taking, but sometimes a person second guesses himself to much, I probably do.

As far as building jigs for these cars, this is new technology for us, were into areas we never had to go before, this goes across the board for all muscle cars, the cars are slowly dissapearing, not completely, but this helps us to keep them going. I know were winging it on these jigs a little, but it will all get sorted out. I know I'm winging it on mine.

I don't know how old you are, if I look at your profile I might loose all of what I have typed so far,:) but the next bunch of guys coming up will take these jigs as well as you and refine them. I'm 66, so I could get in a position and not even finish the car I'm on, then maybe I will get an extension, and stay at it a few years.

Anyway, back to business here.

My concerns on these cars, of which might not amount to a hill of beans, are panel gaps and fitment, temperature changes and sheet metal movement, front and back window stress, quarter to roof separation, or cracking, type of body mounts and putting any pressure on associated panels when tightening them down.

I think about things like a camaro in particular, because its a unibody type car, and were putting full formed pans in them, does it have any effect on the rest of the panels, like did we take some flex out of the body, and add more flex to another area.

I think about, when we replace a lot of panels, then we put a really expensive paint job on it, what will happen down the road, like maybe a guy could put one together, take it out and drive it around a little bit, then fill and block sand and paint, would it help, I don't know, and I don't think its a good idea to do it, because of the contamination you would put on the panels.

Anyway, enough talk on that, heres some suggestions, a guy always wants to try to put out ideas, then they can be sorted out or tossed out, or whatever, but a person should try to help out the situation with some kind of ideas.

You can take these for what there worth.:)

If you can build a jig that can duplicate a fully loaded body as it sets on its wheels ready to be driven down the road, then when you pull that body off the frame, strip the interior out, windows out, completely gutted out body, you can add and replace panels at will, as long as it is tightened down to the jig at all of the body mount locations.

I really believe that going this route will insure as good as you can, that the body filler, primer and paint has a lot better chance of not cracking from temperature changes and driving down the road.

I also believe that the location of the full bodied car and the body jig need to be duplicated at the area where it sets, or a rigid jig with adjustable legs that won't challenge the jig as to movement.

I guess I could add this, when I built my jig, I found different points on the floor where the car was setting and marked those points with a plumb bob, then I marked each body mount on the frame on the floor, then I got the height at each body mount to the floor, these measurements took me a long time to get, then I moved the car out and built the jig over those points, then hilted the jig to the floor at those points so it would retain the right dimensions.

When you build a jig out of 1/8'' 2 x2 square tubing, and you move it it will have a lot of flex, so the rigid jig will probably have to be built out of maybe an I beam type base, but something that won't move.

One other thing I would like to throw in here, the filler, paints and primer.

I don't know for sure, I will have to do a little research, but if a guy could find out what products will stand up better to body flex and temperature change, especially for a body that has had a lot of panels replaced, that might help out quite a bit as far as how good the paint stands up.

Long winded here, I apologize for that, anyway, these jigs have a ways to go, but they sure are interesting, thanks for listening to an old man go on and on.:)

Rob

Rob,,

Nice post but take in consideration that the jig I am designing is similar as the one that Carl has and also from Tony’s shop ( Muscle Car Metal ) both I believe is based on starting from scratch. I feel that a 40 year old car starting on a jig that has factory mount points will not work, correct me if I am way off base here but things sag and twist over time and everyone I have talked to in the body business claims you would need a dimensional foundation to build off from. I am 45 years old and have built a few other cars from the ground up but the parts back in the day were not available and you would have to make do with what you could get.

I do not intend to design something that can handle a full body disassembly then add components that can start the rebuild process. That would take way to much time and money to do so.

Now for my current project you can see it in my sig pics and I plan on building a jig rather then try to change parts without one. I feel that this is one of the main reasons why Fitment issues always occur.

Carl,,

Thanks for the input and I to understand that these cars were not built straight. They were built by men,not robotics so every car off of the line had flaws here and there. I am impressed with what you have created and I only hope my car will look half as good as yours.

Rob, my apologies, I responded with your name but I meant my post for Joe A.

Now I have been on your site before and I do respect you abilities. I can tell that you are a person that puts time and thought in to his work. I've seen your jig, paint booth, panel making, tool making, etc. and all are very very nice. I also like using screws instead of clecos for panel alignment but wouldn't tell anyone, but I guess I'm not the only one.

I personally am trying to learn every day, I have a lot to learn still. Even if I make mistakes at least I'm giving it a shot. I would love to learn more of metal forming and its characteristics, one day maybe. This is my hobby for now, my escape.

The car I'm building right now is a base model car so I am building it as what I call a street machine fun car that I want to maybe beat on a little. It will not have fancy paint, or a don't touch me attitude. Complete opposite, back to basics, a Muscle Car.

By the way I'm younger than my cars, not by much but still younger. I have also learned a lot from this site and its old timers.

Thank You and Team Camaro

This whole thread aired out the jig business pretty good, I really enjoyed it.

I learned some things from it, and as more of these jigs are being built, we will learn more.

You guys keep up the good work, and keep those pictures coming.:thumbsup:

thanks again.

Rob

Can anyone point me in the direction to those fisher body measurements? I want to start mocking up my jig today. Thanks

I would be very interested in a body jig for my 68 Camaro. When they become available let me know.

I am interested in one as well!! Let me know when they are available please, Thanks!

I'm interested in the plans & material list for the jig.

I have a 68 that needs a lot of work. I would be interest in plans for a Jig I think it is a great idea.

So far I have the base laid out in AutoCad and the upright stanchions in place. The plans are aprox 60% complete and verified measurements from numerous sources. If someone could give me the Subframe bushing thickness from the bottom of the floor pan to the top of the subframe or just measure the bushing thickness that goes between the chassis.... Thanks

P.S. It is Freaking Snowing here and I am so tired of this winter crap... I envy those that live in the warm climate...

I would be interested sounds like a great idea.

I am interested as well, just picked up a major project a couple months ago. $200 Camaro :)

I am interested as well, just picked up a major project a couple months ago. $300 1968 Camaro :)

:hurray:Help!!!!

I took my 69 Camaro Convertible to a "Body Shop" to have rockers replaced and ended up with a complete restoration. 2 years and over $10,000.00 later the car is completely dissassembled and back in my garage because shop wanted MORE money to complete. I've had two guys approach me that will help me finish the project but am being pro active and trying to find "The Jig " to finish the project! I know if we don't start out correctly we are in big trouble. I also need plans for a jig and am willing to buy them if they will work for me. I have to replace floor pan, rockers and everything.

Thanks Countyline Automotive in Hesperia Michigan!

kellycat@yahoo.com

You should look into Mikes custom cars. he has plans for jigs and also sells them for the 1st gen camaro.

A jig would be like having the right tool for the right job.I'm interested.

David

Good Moring, Where can I find Mikes Custom Cars does he have a web site?

Good Moring, Where can I find Mikes Custom Cars does he have a web site?
http://www.mikescustomcars.com/index.html

Im in on the jig plans, let me know.

I am building a 67 blown pro street Camaro and need this when I cut the floor out. My only problem is Im using an Art Morrison back half (Frame) and Art Morrison front stub frame. The mounting points will be the original front mount points for the stub frame but the rear points might need to be on my pinchwelds using pinchweld clamps (lower rocker to floor)
Example http://www.chiefautomotive.com/manuals/anchor/Megane%20Attachments%20Users%20Manual.pdf This can be adapted to a jig.

I know some people are against this jig being adjustable but it is needed for certain applications such as mine. It of course will be tightly bolted once set.
While you are going through the fit and finish part be sure to cross reference measurements using a tram gauge or tape measure. As long as you are "SQUARE" you will be okay. For those of you who might not understand what I mean, measure one bolt left side rear to the front side right. Holes need to be located same on each side front and rear. It also doesnt have to be a bolt hole. Think of measuring a square in an X fashion.
I dont worry about flex either as someone noted. Camaro bodies were the begining of unibodies. Unibodies dont flex. Just the frame on a Camaro will flex and only slightly.

Thanks and good luck!

You need to get a Fisher Body Service Manual for the year you are working on.
It has the measurements, and where the measurements reference points are to be taken.

How is this coming? Any idea when the plans will be available? Thanks!

Update on the body jig plans........The base for the jig is all laid out in cad and ready for me to start cutting steel. Once I have the base welded up and the stanchions in place for the body I need to check the measurements so if any of the dimensions are off I can correct the drawing before I sign off on it. Also the vertical mount point locations are questionable at the front pillars and from the front vertical firewall to the outer cowl. I am making two add on fixtures that will allow you align the pillar section and the cowl section once you have the floor pan in place. These will be removable so they won't be in the way as you weld towards the front. I have read from posts on this site of others that have such jigs that are not as elaborate as the one I have but my intention has been to make this thing so anyone with some welding skills and can read a cad drawing can make this jig. I have enclosed a picture of the base so you can see what it will look like. The base has dimensions and other features that are not shown in the picture. I hope to have this complete by the end of July.

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p23/camjoe63/Base_jig.jpg

I just bought a 69 Camaro project that needs lots of work. I am interested. Are you still working on the jig?
Thanks. John C

Are the jig plans done or is this still in the works?

The plans are all done.

I am setting up my web page to show the build and pictures of the body on the jig. I was very pleased on how it came out and the tolorance is down to 1/16 of an inch from the factory specs using all of those body drawings combined. I started this project back in March of 08 and have over 200 hours of CAD design plus creating a build guide with reference pictures and also the materials list with vendor part numbers and price. The whole point of this is so the average person can build this with no heavy equiptment and the ease of acquiring off the shelf material.

I apologize for the delay but it will be worth it to those who are doing a full off resto in the end. P/M or E-mail me if you have any questions.

The plans are all done.

I am setting up my web page to show the build and pictures of the body on the jig. I was very pleased on how it came out and the tolorance is down to 1/16 of an inch from the factory specs using all of those body drawings combined. I started this project back in March of 08 and have over 200 hours of CAD design plus creating a build guide with reference pictures and also the materials list with vendor part numbers and price. The whole point of this is so the average person can build this with no heavy equiptment and the ease of acquiring off the shelf material.

I apologize for the delay but it will be worth it to those who are doing a full off resto in the end. P/M or E-mail me if you have any questions.
This sounds worth it, lots of info in this thread. PM is sent!