A week ago I had a note on my front door from the county building inspector stating that no inspections have been performed on my detatched garage. I bought the property 2 years ago, happy to have a shop to work on my Camaros. The note on my front door was addressed to the previous homeowner.
I did some research and found that the permit was applied for 7-13-1998. It took the county almost ten years to do a follow up. Geez. Also discovered title insurance doesn't cover such things. They are classified as "unrecorded items."
The building inspector came out monday. Long story short he o.k.'d the structure. He gave me the number to the electrical bureau to talk to an inspector. He also emailed my info to the elect. inspector. Talked to him yesterday and he checked on my building and there was never any electrical permit pulled. Oh, oh. He said legally 100% inspection compliance is necessary. ie. all the drywall has to come down. The drywall is untaped and attached with screws. I've got 220 and 110 outlets every 8 feet(was set up as a wood shop). It isn't that big of a shop(880 sq.ft.) but what a pain. Two Camaros, work benches, blocks, heads, tool boxes, parts, parts, etc... Suing the original homeowner for lack of full disclosure would be like squeezing blood out of a turnip. I got the house because he was about to go into forclosure.
Somebody is going to pay! Dearly. Probably me, arrghh! Thought I'd share. Not sure of my legal rights at this point. The only positive I can see is if the shop had burned down, destroying all my stuff. The insurance co. would have discoverd the open permit with no inspections and denied any claims. But then again after ten years it's still standing and hasn't burned down.

Brett in Boise

Brett,
Personally, I would think it would easily be worth a couple of hundred bucks to spend an hour with a good real estate attorney in your town and see what they say.

man that sucks

if you have to go through all of that (pulling down the drywall)

are there any improvements that could be done while doing that ?

sorry i cant help any more than that

The only upgrades I would do is install a couple of 220v heaters. My little 110 space heater doesn't do much in the winter.
I'm waiting to see what the elect. inspector says when he comes out. If it sounds bad I'll seek legal consultation for sure. I'm cautiously optomistic hoping he just wants a few sheets down for a spot check.

Brett in Boise

BillK's RIGHT!!

BUT NOT in your town unless you know and trust him from others telling you so OR you know him personally!!!

pdq67

Bummer, your only real recourse is to go after the seller and I'll guess you will never see a dime, and the lawyer won't be cheap.
I think it's worth checking into a little bit, but my money is on you being dollars and time ahead just bringing it up to code.
Hopefully your electrical inspector has a kind streak, because it could get expensive. I don't know municipal codes in your area, but in Washington you would be removing all sheetrock at minimum, and the service has to be in compliance with todays code, not 10 years ago. My guess is they did it on the cheap, but hopefully they did it right, but I will bet you will have to upgrade the ground system and possibly other stuff, it really depends on how it was done.
I did a red tag (somebody did electrical work without a permit) "fix" back when I was doing service work, and it was expensive for the owner. If you do work without a permit they can come in and shut you down, make you pay to remove the red tag, pay for a new permit, then bring the entire structure up to current code.
Good luck with it, and very nice to your inspector.

Yes Sean be verrry nice to inspector cleouso. I was very accomodating for the building inspector. Moved the Camaros out of the way, set up ladder for attic access and provided a nice shiny mag light. When he saw 2 cracks in the foundation on the outside on the footing he got concerned about frost depth. He mumbled about it for a few minutes til a light bulb went on in my head. I volunteered for shovel duty and dug a 2 foot hole next to the foundation. He put his tape measure down in the hole and called it good. The inspection ended right there. When I volunteered shovel duty he said "really, you wouldn't mind? That would be great!"
Time will tell.

Brett in Boise

Brett, I've been in the home remodeling business for more than thirty years and have yet to open a wall for an inspector. Yes they can make you remove the wallboard but I don't think he'll make you do that. If you know anyone in the area in the building business, ask who's a good inspector. In my area there are several. You can use one that just does electrical or the local code enforcement officer. Explain the situation you're in and tell him everything works fine (I assume) and you've had no problems (if so). Then ask him if you can remove just one piece for him. I'm betting you'll be okay. The inspectors are good people just doing their job, treat them good they'll treat you good. Let us know how it goes. E-mail me if you need more.
Steve

Bummer deal there.

GO BRAVES!!

Yes Sean be verrry nice to inspector cleouso. I was very accomodating for the building inspector. Moved the Camaros out of the way, set up ladder for attic access and provided a nice shiny mag light. When he saw 2 cracks in the foundation on the outside on the footing he got concerned about frost depth. He mumbled about it for a few minutes til a light bulb went on in my head. I volunteered for shovel duty and dug a 2 foot hole next to the foundation. He put his tape measure down in the hole and called it good. The inspection ended right there. When I volunteered shovel duty he said "really, you wouldn't mind? That would be great!"
Time will tell.

Brett in Boise

Thats cool. Most inspectors are pretty decent, but I have dealt with a few that were a pia, usually they are still fair but some are wayyyy more hard core about the code, some make it up as they go along I think. The only time I've seen an inspector put the hurt to someone is when the person is rude to them. I'd just ask what exactly he wants to see done and go from there. Electrical is pretty much the toughest inspection, sometimes structural in commercial, but not usually residential.
Good luck, it will all be worth it when youre done :thumbsup:

Brett, I've been in the home remodeling business for more than thirty years and have yet to open a wall for an inspector. Yes they can make you remove the wallboard but I don't think he'll make you do that. If you know anyone in the area in the building business, ask who's a good inspector. In my area there are several. You can use one that just does electrical or the local code enforcement officer. Explain the situation you're in and tell him everything works fine (I assume) and you've had no problems (if so). Then ask him if you can remove just one piece for him. I'm betting you'll be okay. The inspectors are good people just doing their job, treat them good they'll treat you good. Let us know how it goes. E-mail me if you need more.
Steve

Wow things must be different in your area. You have actually completely covered walls and not recieved an inspection, and they still signed you off? Scary.
Around here you don't get to request an inspector either, if it's a state inspected area you get the state inspector that does your area, if it's a city inspector in a small city (usually the easiest because they are not electricians) you get the one that does your city. In Seattle, where I work mostly, they would never just sign you off if you covered a wall without inspection, and I wouldn't either If I was them.
Most inspectors definitely are decent people doing their jobs and will try to help you out, but I would want the walls opened as a homeowner so I knew it was done right, it may not have burned down yet, but if it did think about whats parked in there, is it worth removing sheetrock? Just my .02 :beers:

Sean,
I did not say I covered walls prior to inspection, I'm not stupid. I've taken work where others had not gotten a permit for work on previous projects on the same structure. Don't mean to sound rude.

Talking to the building inspector mine isn't an isolated incident. There is alot of this going on in my area right now. I asked if there was an audit or something he said no. He also let me know the state elect. inspector has been working with "us" homeowners in this situation recently.
It does sound like to me though since I'm pulling the initial permit everything will have to be to current standards not 1998.
Everything can be moved with the exception of the drill press that came with the shop. It is a 3 phase 220 monster. That came off of a WWII battleship and it weighs around 600 lbs. It looks like I could drill 3/4" steel plate with that thing.

thanks
Brett

Talking to the building inspector mine isn't an isolated incident. There is alot of this going on in my area right now. I asked if there was an audit or something he said no. He also let me know the state elect. inspector has been working with "us" homeowners in this situation recently.
It does sound like to me though since I'm pulling the initial permit everything will have to be to current standards not 1998.
Everything can be moved with the exception of the drill press that came with the shop. It is a 3 phase 220 monster. That came off of a WWII battleship and it weighs around 600 lbs. It looks like I could drill 3/4" steel plate with that thing.

thanks
Brett


Brett, you have three phase in your shop?

Sean,
I did not say I covered walls prior to inspection, I'm not stupid. I've taken work where others had not gotten a permit for work on previous projects on the same structure. Don't mean to sound rude.

Thank goodness for that, it sounded like it was something commonly done.
I suppose you are doing remodels and I'm used to large commercial buildings, so the inspections are likely quite different, but the way I read your first post made me afraid for homeowners in your area....Glad to hear thats not the case. Do they require an electrical license to do electrical work in your area?

Brett- Good luck with this, I think you could have the previous owner for lack of disclosure but make sure that he didn't make disclosure in your purchase agreement. Around here the Realtors mantra goes something like this when working with sellers, "if it wasn't inspected we'll just write it into the PA and it's on the buyers after that..."

Anyway, be sure to go over your paper work on the house before going to a lawyer. You don't want to add the cost of a lawyer on top of everything else if he can't help.

Brett, you have three phase in your shop?

No I don't have three phase. I can't remember how it's done but it was rewired to work on single phase with a "kicker motor". I've got a start up button on box mounted on the wall and on the floor is a little motor that I wrap a string around the pulley and give it a wing once I push the start button.

Brett

BillK's RIGHT!!

BUT NOT in your town unless you know and trust him from others telling you so OR you know him personally!!!

pdq67

I disagree .... my Wife worked for a local real estate attorney for a few years, and believe me you want someone local ... they know all the right people. An out of towner does not have the connections needed to get things done sometimes.

Anyway, be sure to go over your paper work on the house before going to a lawyer. You don't want to add the cost of a lawyer on top of everything else if he can't help.

Haven't gone through that mountain of paperwork yet but plan on it. Thanks for reminding me about that one. The realator was a doofus. I had to go into the real estate office and commandeer a desk, computer, secretary, fax and phone to finish the deal or I would have not gotten the house. I don't do anything with real estate or sales, I'm an aircraft mechanic.

Brett

Thank goodness for that, it sounded like it was something commonly done.
I suppose you are doing remodels and I'm used to large commercial buildings, so the inspections are likely quite different, but the way I read your first post made me afraid for homeowners in your area....Glad to hear thats not the case. Do they require an electrical license to do electrical work in your area?

A license is required for any work in the city limits. Anything outside the city just has to pass code. I'm a general contractor and I leave the electrical and plumbing to the pros.

Brett, i have worked for a real estate attorney for over 10 years, if you came into our office he would tell you the only recourse you had would to be to pursue the prior owner in court, or the conform to the current requirements of the codes. Like suggested before, review your contract, did you buy the property as is? I might have missed this but is the property in the county or city? In our area the codes vary in the city limits. I would get all of my information together, including a diagram of your wiring schematic in the garage and set up an appointment with the inspector. As suggested before be cooperative and work with them in a professional manner. Dont throw the prior owner into this, dont lay blame, just ask what you need to do to make it right. I would probably go ahead and pull the rock off the wall around the box over to the first and second drops, not that big of a deal, have it ready for him, and youll know yourself what you got. I wired my own home and was a nervous wreck when he came to inspect, nice guy reviewed the basement and first floor then signed off on it. If what he sees is up to code i wouldnt think he would push the issue. I am not giving you legal advice, just my opinion based on what ive seen over the years.

I assume you got a property appraisal when you bought the home ? If you did not pay cash I am sure the lender required one. Appraisers in California have to be licensed and maintain E and O insurance... usually the appraiser checks the county records to see what structures and improvements are on the property . It is kind of a lousy thing to do but the person who appraised the property may have some liability and if they were genuinely negligent in preparing a uniform appraisal , or if the county shows the structure in county records then they could both have some liability as well. maybe worth checking into.

Might be worth going into the building department and asking someone if they can refer you to a consultant. Typically they are not supossed to make referals but many time the consultants are prior county planning or building department employees and they know everyone and can cut through some red tape and help you get to a solution in a more effective and less costly manner.

No I don't have three phase. I can't remember how it's done but it was rewired to work on single phase with a "kicker motor". I've got a start up button on box mounted on the wall and on the floor is a little motor that I wrap a string around the pulley and give it a wing once I push the start button.

Brett

OK, I figured that might be the case because rarely you see it but 3 phase can be had in certain areas. Basically you add an "artificial" 3rd phase with a separate motor, pretty common on equipment like lathes and such in a residence. Thats not something the average joe homeowner would know how to do, so maybe the guy that wired the place did it right.

A license is required for any work in the city limits. Anything outside the city just has to pass code. I'm a general contractor and I leave the electrical and plumbing to the pros.
I see, I was just curious because there are still places that don't require a license, but they are getting fewer and fewer it seems, I think it's a good thing too but then again I have a license...:)

Sorry Bill, I meant...

"unless you know and trust him from others telling you so OR you know him personally!!!"

The Contract Inspector NOT the Code Inspector!

I wouldn't want an "insider" here is all I'm trying to say BUT rather somebody I can feel good about that's like my Buddy that's down south of B'ham, Ala...

He was the Super for the Developer that built our 1st house and he walked me through it one Sat morning while it was being framed and told me where to put MORE nails sorta guy!!

pdq67

I assume you got a property appraisal when you bought the home ? If you did not pay cash I am sure the lender required one. Appraisers in California have to be licensed and maintain E and O insurance... usually the appraiser checks the county records to see what structures and improvements are on the property . It is kind of a lousy thing to do but the person who appraised the property may have some liability and if they were genuinely negligent in preparing a uniform appraisal , or if the county shows the structure in county records then they could both have some liability as well. maybe worth checking into.

Might be worth going into the building department and asking someone if they can refer you to a consultant. Typically they are not supossed to make referals but many time the consultants are prior county planning or building department employees and they know everyone and can cut through some red tape and help you get to a solution in a more effective and less costly manner.


I hadn't even considered the appraiser. There has to be some culpability other than the previous homeowner. Some sort of checks and balances somewhere.


Brett in Boise

I do Plumbing, Heating, and AC (alot of both New construction and Renovation) and from experience can tell you there should have been a Permit pulled for the construction and electrical work that was done on your shop. I have also seen cases like you are dealing with now as you bought the home with an "Existing shop on the property".

Now Being this is an existing Structure I dont think there is alot they can say or do to you personally unless you do pull a new permit for doing some upgrading to that structure. What was done 10yrs years ago before you bought that house shouldnt fall back on you now because a Local inspector just decided to take a look at it (All of that should fall back in the Contractor's Lap that built it and didnt pull the necessary permits. Home Owners can pull certain permits themselves but not for this only Licensed Contractors can pull those).

Honestly it is a Good thing that after 10 years it still passed a general inspection, But what you have to be aware of is that Codes Change from year to year so this Elecrictal Inspector "Can" have you bring the electric up to current codes at Your Expense.

The type of permit the electrical inspector said I need to get is; property owner permit for existing work. I am a bit worried he'll require current standards. I don't know what has changed in ten years, but I'm sure there has to be some changes. One thing I know I need is one GFI 110 outlet, there isn't one now.
Thanks for all the replies. I was looking forward to spending money on my project Camaro this spring. I've had to use my tax return the last two years on house stuff. I'll probably have to use it this year on this issue. The Camaro will sit idle for a bit more I guess.

Brett in Boise

Just be nice to the inspector. He has the power. It won't hurt anything to go in and have a sit down with the town's chief building official.

Most inspectors are reasonable people. Their interest is the safety of the structure, and they are often willing to compromise "accepted practises" as long as they feel it is done safely.

I'd consider it pretty radical to make you pull drywall off. You can tell what type of tubing is in the wall by looking at the connectors inside the boxes. You can tell what gauge and type wire was used, and if proper grounding methods were adhered to. About the only thing you can't tell is if the proper screwgaurds were used where the conduit passes thru the 2x4's.

Yer gonna have to do the GFI's. At least here, ALL outlets in basememnts and garages must have GFI protection, it's been that way for a long lkong time.

Oh, oh. He said legally 100% inspection compliance is necessary. ie. all the drywall has to come down. The drywall is untaped and attached with screws. I've got 220 and 110 outlets every 8 feet(was set up as a wood shop). It isn't that big of a shop(880 sq.ft.) but what a pain.
Brett in Boise

I guess I just don't get it. Why does the drywall gave to be removed? The inspector knows that there is nothing between the outlets but romex. Its mostly the breaker box and light/outlet connections that they are concerned about.
Call the inspector and ask if you get an electrical contracter to go over the building would he/she then accept that and inspect it.
You are fixen to blow a wad of $ on a lawyer and it could be put on the electrical contracter.
Glad I live in the country. I had my whole house and building built without a permit or inspector except the electric company at the meter box.
Tom

Brett,

Things you'll have to look at:

Is there a sub panel in the garage?
1) If so, how is the line run to it, underground or, above ground?
2) What amperage is the panel rated for. (see inspection cover). Once that is determined find out what size wire feeds the panel.
3) Breaker at main panel must be able to carry the load of the sub panel, wire feeding the sub panel must be rated for the amperage of the sub panel as well as correct wire size for the breaker feeding it.

Notes if ran underground. Unless it is covered by concrete and/ or in electrical grade pvc pipe, the wire must be no less than 18" deep and underground approved line. (has a gray sheathing and says UF rated). If it was ran in pipe, then it will have to be THNN wire (this is not romex, but each wire seperate from the others with a plastic protective coating) rated for the amps your sub panel is. Assuming it's a single phase panel then there should be 1 black, 1 red, 1 white and 1 green wire. Inside the panel there should be a copper "z" shaped piece that is connected to the neutral bus as well as the panel itself.

If ran overhead to a riser or block and knuckle, make sure feed is a minimum of 10' off the ground.

If the structure is made with wood studs, make sure that the inspector can see how the wires are passed through the studs. The hole that they go through cannot be any closer than 1 1/4" from the edge and still pass unless a stud guard is placed over that area of the stud to prevent a nail from piercing the wire. All wires must be stapled within 6" of a box they enter, no more than two (romex) wires under a staple.
If metal boxes were used, all must be grounded.
Recepticles must be at least 12" off the ground.
Make sure all recepticles and light switches have covers on them.


Garage recepticles:
All garage receticles must be GCFI protected. If all the recepts. are on the same circuit, make sure the first one is the GCFI and the rest are fed from the load side of it. ( back side of GCFI denotes line and load sides) Typically the garage recepts. will be on a 20A breaker using #12 wire.
Lighting will be on a 15A breaker using #14 wire.


To be nice to the inspector, if run underground, dig up the area where the feed leaves the main panel and where it gets to the garage so he/ she can check the depth, ( you'll have to do it anyway for the inspector or fail).
Never, I repeat NEVER offer to the inspector any info they do not ask for unless you want to open a larger can of worms.

This covers it very well, with some exceptions I see. One that is not mentioned is you will need additional grounding electrodes (ground rods, water pipe or building steel) and bonding the approprite items since it's a separate building (and a sub panel is already in place I believe you said), this is the area most "homeowner electricians" will miss. The only way to avoid this is if it's a single circuit.


Brett,

Things you'll have to look at:

Is there a sub panel in the garage?
1) If so, how is the line run to it, underground or, above ground?
2) What amperage is the panel rated for. (see inspection cover). Once that is determined find out what size wire feeds the panel.
3) Breaker at main panel must be able to carry the load of the sub panel, wire feeding the sub panel must be rated for the amperage of the sub panel as well as correct wire size for the breaker feeding it.

Notes if ran underground. Unless it is covered by concrete and/ or in electrical grade pvc pipe, the wire must be no less than 18" deep and underground approved line. (has a gray sheathing and says UF rated).

* If it is in pvc pipe in the listed conditions it has to be 18" deep, if it's direct buried conductor it will need to be 24" deep generally, based on the above conditions. Direct buried conductors are not all necessarily in heavy gray (uf) multi conductor assemblies, they can be individual conductors rated for direct burial. Just because it goes into the ground in PVC doesn't mean it's run entirely in pvc either
If it was ran in pipe, then it will have to be THNN wire (this is not romex, but each wire seperate from the others with a plastic protective coating) rated for the amps your sub panel is. Assuming it's a single phase panel then there should be 1 black, 1 red, 1 white and 1 green wire. Inside the panel there should be a copper "z" shaped piece that is connected to the neutral bus as well as the panel itself.
* you do not bond the ground to the neutral in a sub panel, so the bonding jumper, the copper Z or a ground screw, is not to be installed. Bonding is to happen after the separately derived system (transformer), 1 time

If ran overhead to a riser or block and knuckle, make sure feed is a minimum of 10' off the ground.

If the structure is made with wood studs, make sure that the inspector can see how the wires are passed through the studs. The hole that they go through cannot be any closer than 1 1/4" from the edge and still pass unless a stud guard is placed over that area of the stud to prevent a nail from piercing the wire. All wires must be stapled within 6" of a box they enter, no more than two (romex) wires under a staple.
If metal boxes were used, all must be grounded.
Recepticles must be at least 12" off the ground.
Make sure all recepticles and light switches have covers on them.

* this is a great example of why the sheetrock should at minimum be partially removed

Garage recepticles:
All garage receticles must be GCFI protected. If all the recepts. are on the same circuit, make sure the first one is the GCFI and the rest are fed from the load side of it. ( back side of GCFI denotes line and load sides) Typically the garage recepts. will be on a 20A breaker using #12 wire.
Lighting will be on a 15A breaker using #14 wire.


To be nice to the inspector, if run underground, dig up the area where the feed leaves the main panel and where it gets to the garage so he/ she can check the depth, ( you'll have to do it anyway for the inspector or fail).
Never, I repeat NEVER offer to the inspector any info they do not ask for unless you want to open a larger can of worms.

I think this is a very thorough guideline with a few exceptions I noted in bold, not to pick on or try to correct you Brandon in any way, just a few things as I see them :)

Maybe drop a couple $20's on the floor for the inspector. Just kiddin. Good luck.

Hope that everything checks out okay for ya

Thanks Nantooch, 68rs406. I went to the Dept. of Building Safety yesterday and filed for the permit. Called for an inspection request. All I'm waiting for is to hear from the inspector and set up day/time for him to come out. Everything Nantooch said was backed up by the copies of the electrical codes that the lady at the DBS gave me. This office is getting alot of folks like myself showing up lately. They must have hired a real go getter down there at the county building inspection department. Some over achiever that discovered a bunch of open permits.
This will ultimately benefit me in the long run. Knowing that the building and electrical is safe and properly permitted. Could have been a real headache had the place burned down and my insurance company denying any claims. Lots of stuff in the shop. It's kind of made me reevaluate on how much stuff do I really need.

Brett in Boise

One last thing I didn't see mentioned, but could have been. You can put GFI breakers in the subpanel for the outlets instead of replacing all of the outlets with GFI outlets if you want. They are more expensive, but depending on number of outlets might be cheaper and faster to fix.

I read about GFCI breakers durning my research, sounds like a good idea to me. I've got one exterior outlet that is non GFCI, so over the weekend I bought a GFCI outlet but haven't installed it. I'll wait for the inspector. If he'll be fine with a GFCI breaker I'll do that instead.

Well check the pricing....For a single outlet, putting in a GFI outlet would be cheaper and easier. Besides, I was talking a GFI breaker for the interior outlets. I'm not sure if exterior outlets can use a GFI breaker or or if they have to be GFI outlets. All the exterior's I've seen have been GFI.

You'll need Sean or Brandon's advise on that one as these guys here are the ones that told me how to wire my new detached garage :D (which passed final inspection last year).

Glad things are working out for you, it will be better once it's all done, and it shouldn't break the bank. :thumbsup:
All they have to be is "GFCI protected" so you could use a GFCI breaker but they are pretty spendy. Just remember that you can wire a GFCI outlet (1) to -I believe- up to 4 or 5 non GFCI outlets downstream, but if you can do that will depend on the wiring layout. What you would do for instance is if you had 5 outlets on a circuit, the first in line would be the GFCI recept. wired to the "line" terminals of the GFCI, and then you would land the wire that feeds the other 4 down the line on the "load" terminals on the GFCI. Then all downstream outlets are protected by the one GFCI. You would repeat that for each group (or circuit), but you will be limited to number of downstream recepts from the GFCI, I believe in the instructions it will tell you how many, I can't recall off hand.
That would be considerably cheaper than a GFCI breaker for each, because they are spendy and some panels can be tough to find them for, depending on manufacturer.
Some of the resi stuff I'm rusty on, I do primarily large commercial/ industrial but it's similar, the code is the same.
How many circuits and outlets do you have all said?
Good luck!

I believe it is 9 or 10 (110) outlets on one 20 amp breaker and the eight 8 ft. fluorescent ceiling lights. The same number of 220 outlets on three 30 amp breakers. I'll have to look again when I get home to be sure. Thanks for your help Sean.

I believe it is 9 or 10 (110) outlets on one 20 amp breaker and the eight 8 ft. fluorescent ceiling lights. The same number of 220 outlets on three 30 amp breakers. I'll have to look again when I get home to be sure. Thanks for your help Sean.

If it's that many outlets on one circuit a GFCI breaker may be the ticket, what brand is your panel? I'd price both options just to see. The 220 outlets don't require GFCI protection nor do the lights.
Glad I could help, anytime :beers:

Not sure of the brand of the panel. Nice to talk to someone with a working knowledge. Not knowing is what's driving me nuts. I'm an aircraft mechanic for fedex and can work/troubleshoot the heck out of the avionics on anything we fly. But house wiring is so foreign to me. Thanks again.

How many circuits and outlets do you have all said?
Good luck!

Hey Sean got the official count. It is a Siemens panel, 100 amp service, three 20A breakers and four 30A breakers. A dozen 110v and 220v outlets each and 8 lights. thanks

Not sure of the brand of the panel. Nice to talk to someone with a working knowledge. Not knowing is what's driving me nuts. I'm an aircraft mechanic for fedex and can work/troubleshoot the heck out of the avionics on anything we fly. But house wiring is so foreign to me. Thanks again.

Go to Home Depot or Lowe's and get one of the softbound books on house wiring. It is pretty much all you will need. Even if you choose to farm out the work, at least you will know what is going on. If you are gonna replace the breakers with GFCI breakers which is fairly easy (just match the amperage) MAKE SURE YOU CUT THE POWER TO THE PANEL!!!!!!!! NEVER WORK ON A HOT BOX.

alan

One thing I was wondering. I thought the total circuit breaker amps couldn't add up to more than the service panel amps. True??

One thing I was wondering. I thought the total circuit breaker amps couldn't add up to more than the service panel amps. True??

No, it's based on a claculated load. Also breakers are not supposed to be loaded past 80% of the rating, and some other items that would be hard to explain when you type as slow as I do. :D
Seimens is a good panel, and will be easy to find any breaker you need. Still, a GFCI breaker isn't going to be cheap.
Figure out what the three 20A breakers power, 1 will be lights, the other two probably outlets. If it's fed like I previously mentioned, it would be cheaper to buy two or three GFCI recepts and feed downstream from them, if you can. However GFCI breakers are not a bad call, depending how it's wired. Get on home depots web site and check on the price of a 20 amp GFCI for a seimens panel, they will have them.
Not a bad idea about the book, it will give you basic home wiring info. I don't like to see them though because some people think if they wire up a garage they know electrical, they don't know when to step back and say I don't know, kind of scares me. That or I got screwed, I had to take 5 years of apprenticeship and a state exam......:D

No, it's based on a claculated load. Also breakers are not supposed to be loaded past 80% of the rating, and some other items that would be hard to explain when you type as slow as I do. :D
Seimens is a good panel, and will be easy to find any breaker you need. Still, a GFCI breaker isn't going to be cheap.
Figure out what the three 20A breakers power, 1 will be lights, the other two probably outlets. If it's fed like I previously mentioned, it would be cheaper to buy two or three GFCI recepts and feed downstream from them, if you can. However GFCI breakers are not a bad call, depending how it's wired. Get on home depots web site and check on the price of a 20 amp GFCI for a seimens panel, they will have them.
Not a bad idea about the book, it will give you basic home wiring info. I don't like to see them though because some people think if they wire up a garage they know electrical, they don't know when to step back and say I don't know, kind of scares me. That or I got screwed, I had to take 5 years of apprenticeship and a state exam......:D

No way a softbound book would ever replace your apprenticeship and years of experience. It just seemed that if he was of the mind, swapping out a regular breaker for a GFCI breaker wouldn't be that big of a chore especially with his military electronics experience. Obviously, wiring a brand new installation from the ground up is an entirely different beast.

It has always been my experience that if at least you have a basic understanding of what is going on, you are that much ahead of the game. No different than taking you car into your mechanic, the more you know, the better you come out.

alan

No worries on any corrections, I get that at work as well and it always helps to get refreshed.

If memory serves me though, you can have up to 13 recepticles on a breaker.

Though in a garage setting like in this thread I would prefer to break them in to two groups each under its own gcfi.

It's been a while since I installed a garage sub so forgive me if I'm incorrect I'm trying to remember though, I think the sub may have to have two ground rods as well connected w/ #4 copper, but that may just be the inspectors here in Charlotte. Some are picky and some don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. . That and I'm a bit burnt from installing panels at a apartment complex for the last two days in a very seedy area of town.

But anyhow Brett,

Do pick the inspectors brain when the inspection takes place. Most will give you lots of free advice, pay close attention and listen. Several will allow you to correct an error while they are conducting the inspection to help you pass it, provided of course that it's not a major problem. Some will even walk you through the steps needed to correct any issues they find. Not all inspectors are asses, you will come across some that are still human and won't treat you like an imbecile.

Thanks guys. The couple of phone conversations I've had with the inspector leads me to believe he's a decent guy. The building inspector said as much too.

Brett in Boise

I meant to ask you though. Where in Boise are you located? I've lived over at Centennial, up at the Mesa and up the bench on Orchard.

No way a softbound book would ever replace your apprenticeship and years of experience. It just seemed that if he was of the mind, swapping out a regular breaker for a GFCI breaker wouldn't be that big of a chore especially with his military electronics experience. Obviously, wiring a brand new installation from the ground up is an entirely different beast.

It has always been my experience that if at least you have a basic understanding of what is going on, you are that much ahead of the game. No different than taking you car into your mechanic, the more you know, the better you come out.

alan

I totally agree, the more you know about anything the better off you are. I think the book is a great idea as well, I know guys that have done a lot with just the books they have out, I'm talking about the guys I talk to occasionally that tell me "wiring is easy, I did my shed.....":D
I was actually just joking around in my first response, sometimes it's tough to tell over the 'net. :beers:

No worries on any corrections, I get that at work as well and it always helps to get refreshed.

If memory serves me though, you can have up to 13 recepticles on a breaker.

Though in a garage setting like in this thread I would prefer to break them in to two groups each under its own gcfi.

It's been a while since I installed a garage sub so forgive me if I'm incorrect I'm trying to remember though, I think the sub may have to have two ground rods as well connected w/ #4 copper, but that may just be the inspectors here in Charlotte. Some are picky and some don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. . That and I'm a bit burnt from installing panels at a apartment complex for the last two days in a very seedy area of town.

I hear you about the corrections, I figure when we stop listening to them we stop learning, right or wrong. Heck I usually will ask an inspector in some certain instances how they would like top see something done, it gets them involved in the job kind of, and makes them more comfortable with you I think, plus if you discuss it with them they hardly give it a second look when done. I just didn't want to come off as a know it all jackass, it's tough when reading on line to know the true intent :thumbsup: .
You are correct, it will require two ground rods spaced a minimum of 8' (more in some places), and connected with a #6, though we always use a #4 as practice too. We rarely use groundrods anymore in my type of work, large comercial, usually it's a Ufer ground (required on new construction in Seattle) and building steel and waterlines.
Apartments and condos suck huh, we are doing more and more multi story condos around here, nothing like 20 floors of the same damn unit again and again, I avoid them, most the jobs I have been doing are more unique, which I like.
:beers:

I had to do the 2 ground rods as well for my garage last summer. I think they were 5/8"? If you do have to put in ground rods or an additional one, let me know and I can tell you a trick on how to get those damn 8' long things into the ground easier.

You use a BFH right Christopher? :D :thumbsup:

You use a BFH right Christopher? :D :thumbsup:

Well yes I did..... and water ;)

I meant to ask you though. Where in Boise are you located? I've lived over at Centennial, up at the Mesa and up the bench on Orchard.

I live in the 5 mile / Lake Hazel area, on Highlander. My other house was 3/10 of a mile away in a new subdivision off of Cloverdale. What a difference going from small lot to the acre lot.

Last night I turned all the lights on and air compressor. Just to check if the power was hooked up after the meter. It is. Not that anyone would do that. But wouldn't put it past the previous owner, since there was no electrical permit.

Brett in Boise

For driving ground rods we use a large hammer drill with a blank socket on it. Drives those 8' rods right down in about 40 seconds. One of the instructors out here taught us to put a large fender washer under the point of the rod then drive it down. It will go down twice as fast, won't mushroom the cap and can be pulled up and out with minimal force. Pisses off the inspector when they want you to prove it's a full rod when they don't see a mushroomed head, then you pull the whole thing out and they want to know how it's done and you tell em it's a trade secret.

No BFH needed.

Thread jack mode engaged.

Great ideas Nano... What's a "blank socket" though? Just chuck a square drive socket adapter in a hammer drill and put a junk socket on it?

Why not try a washer that's slightly larger than the diameter of the ground rod? I'd guess a similar effect.

Ever try driving the ground rod in while the inspector is there? Gives away the trade secret though...

Funny that 2 ground rods are required...

Thread jack mode disengaged.

Well I was able to get my ground rods all the way in with about 3 feet left simply by pushing it in a little, filling the hole with water and reinserting the rod, pull it back out, add more water, push it in a little further. Took very little effort. Once I only had about 3 feet left, I just pounded it in with the sledge. I tried the hammer drill on one, and it worked ok, but then I was standing on an 8' ladder trying to hold a rod and drill, and push down and keeping my balance. The water trick was actually faster for me. But then, maybe my electric DeWalt hammer drill wasn't big enough for that task.

Kev,

picture a bell in your mind, now take the area where it would hang/ mount from and stretch it out and form it to fit into the jaws of a hammer drill.
The bell area is slipped over the rod, turn on hammer drill and watch it drive the rod down. When you've got it to the correct depth remove the hammer drill to see a nicely mushroomed cap on the rod.

Now if a fender washer is placed below the rod and driven in with the rod a larger hole is made, but for whatever reason the rod will drive faster, the end mushrooms very little or at all and is easy to pull out. Just stamp on the area around the rod to preven it from being too loose.

Inspector came out yesterday. He took one look at the panel and that was it. The 30 amp breakers for the 220 outlets should be 20 amp(12 Ga wire). There is one 14 ga. wire on one of the 20 amp breakers, should be 15 amp. No grounding rods. He said the person that wired the panel didn't know what he was doing. So if I continue as the property owner he wants all the drywall/insulation down. But if I get a contractor he'll leave it up to them. Or I could disconnect the wires at the box and run external conduit on the walls.
Life wouldn't be interesting without problems. But doggonit!

Brett in Boise

Inspector came out yesterday. He took one look at the panel and that was it. The 30 amp breakers for the 220 outlets should be 20 amp(12 Ga wire). There is one 14 ga. wire on one of the 20 amp breakers, should be 15 amp. No grounding rods. He said the person that wired the panel didn't know what he was doing. So if I continue as the property owner he wants all the drywall/insulation down. But if I get a contractor he'll leave it up to them. Or I could disconnect the wires at the box and run external conduit on the walls.
Life wouldn't be interesting without problems. But doggonit!

Brett in Boise

Bummer Brett, thats kind of what I was afraid would happen, I've seen too many instances of home wiring go that way, people make it work but by no means address code. Look at it this way, at least you found out now, instead of after the shop burned down.
I'd remove the sheetrock (it's not taped anyway right?) and start over. If you are confidant you can do it safely get a home wiring book, get some info on things that you have and get started rewiring or just briunging it up to code. The breakers on too small of wire is as common as the grounding issues, the 14 gauge is probably lights, just put in a 15a breaker, and then figure out what equipment the 220 oulets will be running and run either bigger wire or the right breaker for the wire thats there.
It is after all just a shop, with some of your own info and asking some questions on here, I think you can accomplish it. Or have a shop do it, but it won't be cheap.
sorry man, but it will be for the better.

It could have gone worse. Do as Sean says and pull the rock to expose every thing.
If outlets are run with 14awg wire then make sure it's connected to a 15a breaker,
12awg wire to a 20a breaker. In the case of your 220 outlet a dbl 20a breaker.
Ground rods can be picked up at home depot or lowes. These are to be driven into the ground. Dig a shallow hole about 1' around and 6" deep just outside the wall opposite the panel. The first rod gets placed here. Now measure off 6' from the first rod along the building. Dig a second hole here and place the second rod here. Connect the #4 copper to both of these rods and to the panel ground bus. This is to be one continuous run with no breaks in the wire.
If either HD or lowes don't carry the rods then you'll have to go to a elect supply house to get them. There are special connectors for the rods. The supply house will have them, not sure about HD or Lowes for them. The crappy part will be getting the solid core #4 wire to connect to the panel and the rods. Make sure that the connectors are on the rods before the rods are driven into the ground or you will never get them on afterwards. When the #4 is run leave the holes unfilled until the inspector has passed them.

If wires are run through the studs in the walls, make sure that the hole they run through is no closer than 1 1/4" from either edge of the 2x4. If any of them are, then your choice is to a) redrill the hole correctly, or b) buy some stud gaurds and install them on the studs over the area where the wires pass through too close to the edge (these are designed to prevent nails and screws from puncturing the romex).

FWIW Following the inspectors direction might be a pain but look at it this way now you will be able to not only get the wiring corrected but add a thing or two for future use. Plan ahead kind of thing........remember it is for the safety your love ones not to mention the family:D.....

A little note on the stud plates for any holes within the 1 1/4" that Nantooch mentioned.......

If the wire is passing thru the top plate or bottom plate of the wall (bottom probaly not the case here) you will need a wider plate the supply house will have one that is 5" wide to protect not only the framing but the area below on a top plate and above on a bottom. This is due to larger moldings and combinations of moldings being used today. I have been called on it on more than one inspection.......might not hold true for a garage but in living space it is code.

Thought this might help.....

8balll

I don't even want to go there: PERIOD :o))

Been away for a couple days. Lower back probs. Anyway I had a contractor come out to do a bid. I put him in contact with the inspector before hand. He recommended external conduit. He didn't want anything to do with the drywall. He also said the 220 outlets were 20 amp outlets. If I heard him correct they need to be 30 amp outlets for a welder. So the 220 circuits in the shop were useless for my needs. I'll find out the cost by Monday. Then I'll weigh my options. Up to and including litigation. Thanks guys.

One thing to consider... by removing sheetrock instead of doing the conduit, you can then insulate if not already done, poly vapor the wall and install cable, speaker wire, Cat5 computer wire etc. anywhere you want while its open.
Talk to your agent about litigation as there are clauses in many states about doing 'unpermitted' work and not disclosing it to a buyer. That might trigger some financial help from the seller. :)

The shop is very well insulated. When it is 110 here in July it doesn't get above 80 in the shop. I've got a wall mounted AC unit that cools it down even more. The agent that did this deal was an idiot. I'd be suprised if he is still employed. The deal wouldn't have gone through if I hadn't gone into their office and commandeered a desk, computer, phone, fax and a secretary to finish the deal. Short version of 3 weeks of aggravation. I'd like to pull the drywall. But I'd have to rent a container and empty the shop. Spring is here and I've got an acre to take care of, not wanting to fill my plate with too much stuff.

One thing to consider regarding agents, the BROKER is actually the responsible party to a problem. The brokerage owner could be in a corner having hired a bad agent and that owner/broker will also then be liable for costs to make it right. I know you want to move on but as a Broker myself I know all to well how bad agents mess things up and Id be the first one to try to make things right for you so that you dont call in the Attorney General or Board of Realtors that can mess with my license to work. Maybe the broker will pay for the conduit work and other costs. Its worth a call. :)

Thanks Jim. My brother had a similar problem in a different state. He wound up getting money from the real estate company. Does this differ from state to state?

Not really, getting back commission from a broker who had a bad agent is more common than you think. No law can say a broker cant rebate back for an 'issue' involved in a transaction. Money can flow between agents and clients freely. Only when money goes to someone outside the transaction do the laws get different.
Id call the broker and explain the problem when you get an estimate for the work. If the estimate is $2,000, be upfront and say you expected the home and garage to have inspected wiring and his agent should have done a better job of disclosing any work done by the seller that was not with a permit. Then ask the broker for full payment. If he haggles, then its up to you. If you want to accept 3/4 or 1/2 of it from him, work your way down slowly but if he flinches and realizes his agent screwed up, he will be pretty interested in seeing you happy.

If the contractor hasn't given you the bid yet I'll venture a ballpark guess for you.

I'll guess it in at approx. $4,700 - 5k.

I feel for you if I'm close. That would definately kill any Camaro budget I got to have.:yes:

If the drywall is screwed not nailed and not taped, pull it off.
Fix it yourself and do it right.

While you're in there, take care of any insulation that needs done, and maybe run some airlines, too.

No way I'd want to just forget about all the existing wiring and surface mount new.
It's ugly for one, and have you checked the price of copper lately!

Just depends on how much the estimate is. How much it would cost to rent a storage container parked on my lot. The IROC could sit outside, the 68 project would fit on my covered patio. I could cut the drywall 4 ft. off the floor all the way around. But the ceiling oh man. The insulation is 2 ft. thick up there and pulling all those sheets down. Geez.

I bet 4-5K is about right too, easily, especially in conduit.
Pull the sheetrock, then you have boxes recessed in the wall etc and it will look a lot better after all is said and done. I love the look of well installed conduit, but not in my garage if possible.
Another thing to consider, I don't care what the contractor has said, if you use conduit the price of material, and labor if figured by the hour, WILL be more unless the conduit and fittings are free to him. Conduit is nice for future, but if well planned you won't need it.
Another thing, you can't just leave the boxes and exposed wiring, code requires abandoned wiring and boxes be removed, basically if you can see it it has to come out.
As for the welder, check out the model you figure you will want (or that you have) and be positive of the power requirements.
It sucks and is inconvenient now but it will be better after it's done if you pull the sheetrock.

Just depends on how much the estimate is. How much it would cost to rent a storage container parked on my lot. The IROC could sit outside, the 68 project would fit on my covered patio. I could cut the drywall 4 ft. off the floor all the way around. But the ceiling oh man. The insulation is 2 ft. thick up there and pulling all those sheets down. Geez.

You shouldn't have to pull the ceiling rock off, if it's reasonably accessible you can expose the wiring/boxes from above by moving insulation. The inspector can still say no but it's definitely worth asking about. The walls have to come off of course.

4-5k ouch. I was hoping half that. Guess I'll tell my fiancee' now that there won't be a honeymoon this summer. right. Sean that was my original thought for the ceiling as well. Just move insulation and let him crawl around in the attic.

4-5k ouch. I was hoping half that. Guess I'll tell my fiancee' now that there won't be a honeymoon this summer. right. Sean that was my original thought for the ceiling as well. Just move insulation and let him crawl around in the attic.

I bet if you get him a pair of disposable tyvek overalls, he will think kindly towards you if he is gonna crawl around the attic. Also have a cooler full of gatorade.

:)

alan

Talked to the broker. Such a smooth salesman. He referred me to small claims. The bid came in at $4545, subtract $872 if I don't add the heater. My experience with real estate has shown me such incompetence. The only individuals that had any credabitlity was my lender. They made zero mistakes. I could go on my I won't. Walk softy carry a big stick. Look out here I come.

I had an epiphany while on the porcelain lounge chair today. It is a government(local) conspiracy. With the downturn in housing around here, all the contractors are in dire straits. So to help the local economy the powers that be did an audit and found an enormous amount of open permits or no permits. So if the inspectors blanket the area with enough notices, it will help prop up the local contractor buisnesses during tough times. Hmmmm....

You are probably right but they are still within the letter of the law.

alan

There is absolutely no way I would donate $4500 to the contractors relief fund.

You could hire someone to pull the rock down, put it back up again, and tape and mud it for maybe $500.

And anyone who can redo a firstgen can fix that wiring up for less than $500.

And they really cannot refuse you. They can make it tough if they want to, but if you do what they ask and do it right they cannot refuse you.

I pulled the electrical permit for my house (new construction), hired a union crew to (side job) do the rough and the wirepull on Saturdays when no one was looking, and I did ALL the finish work. I called for all the inspections and was present for all of them.

I've got a friend who is handy with drywall, he's offered up his help already. He's coming over thursday to have a look. I may get a couple more bids just for kicks. But it is looking like I'll be the handyman. I've already got the property owners permit pulled, needed that to iniate inspection. Like a guy at work said even if it is $40 every time the inspector comes out. I could screw it up quite a bit and take awhile to hit $3700. All this is with humor. It'll get sorted out. Some problems in life you can ignore until they go away. But some have to be dealt with. Like I told the inspector "without problems, life wouldn't be any fun!" His reply was "I don't know I'd call this fun, maybe interesting, but not fun."