I talked to a Chevorlet service person today at a dealership about this E85. Your gas stations put in 10% ethanol, in all gas grades. From what he said, they would have to reprogram the vehicles computer. What do you do when you have to use this corn oil in a old car or a mower that don't have a computer? I have asked a family member that owns a chevy dealer to tell me what I have to do. Anyone been aware of the things you have to do before you use the E85?

Your Carburetor must be retuned by a pro. You should also install all new Stainless steel gas lines and a stainless steel or plastic fuel tank. Some have said they have gotten away with not changing fuel line or tank. The ethanol can also "break loose" any contaniments that may be in your tank and plug up your carburetor. You CAN NOT just fill 'er up and go.

E85 from Corn is the biggest scam ever. Costs more equivalent gasoline energy to make it than you get out of it. Corn diverted to fuel drive up prices fro food and livestock feed. Energy per $ is also less than and equivalent $ amount of gasoline. The Bush plan to have production of 21 billion gallons a year by 2012 will quietly die whether McCain or a dem gets to the Whitehouse. Ethanol can not be put into conventional pipelines and must be transported in stainless trucks. Fertilizer costs are soaring and food diverted to fuel? Does not make a lot of sense even to diehard environmenalists. When the technology to use plant fibre or cellulose is developed in many years time then perhpas it will regain traction.

I would not convert any car to E85... heck most states do not even have a dozen or more stations that can supply the stuff...

just MO... rant over ;)

I have notice the price of chicken feed has jumped completely because of the use of ethanol in vehicles. We are force feed this load of junk and at the same time since ethanol was introduce, gas prices jumped.

I read somewhere that it takes the equivalent of 1.5 gallons of gasoline to make 1 gallon of Ethanol. How is that conserving energy? Just because it is being sourced from a different ingredient? And the idea of using a food source for fuel has never been a good idea. I am happy for the corn farmers who finally get to make some money, but at what cost? Have you noticed the rise in food prices lately? Yes, partially due to the increased diesel costs of trucking products around being passed on to consumers, but probably more due to shortages of other grain products now brought on by everyone planting corn instead. As corn supplies which would have gone into the food chain are now being diverted into Ethanol, corn prices for food use have also shot up. As have rice and other grain products as they are now in shorter supply as food companies are demanding more of them as ingredients with the shortage of corn. Bought any rice lately? Look at the price compared to last year. This Ethanol thing is the wrong idea for the right reason, kinda like GM pushing the V8 diesel passenger car engine on the public in the 80's before it had been adequately tested. Or was my Dad the only one who bought the Olds cutlass diesel? We went through 3 engines and 2 transmissions on that car before it was 5 years old. Making fuel from Food? Bad idea. Period. There, rant over.

Its not about conservation... its about dependency and alternatives to crude oil. Nor is it about cost... as it is too new of a technology for the majority of the main stream. That is one reason that there are not more stations that actually carry E85.

The funny thing about diesel... its a by-product in the production of regular petrol. But some how it now costs more to make the same by product ?? Now... THAT is price gouging if I have ever seen it.

Does anyone remember Gasahol ???. That was produced back in the late 70's.... The government had farmers switch to grow corn and then pulled the plug on the Idea that caused allot of them to go bankrupt. ( Farm Aid ) !!!!!!!!

Being from the North East Coast I have to drive over 60 miles to a gas station that sells fuel without Ethanol...And from the damage it caused to my Boat,,,Quad and any 4 cylinder engine that sits for a while I would say the Government is screwing all of us once again. I can only hope that I still can get gas without Ethanol when I finish my project.

Do not get confused with E85 (85% ethanol) and 10% ethanol mix with Gasoline. The 10% will not effect carbs or EFIs much. The 85% really takes changes to the car. read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85


I agree the whole "corn to fuel" is a crock and should be abandoned. Ethanol as a fuel is viable, but the feedstock has to come from something other than food, should be switch grass or similar. The latest contender is cyanobacteria: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080423115917.htm


The hydrogen economy is a joke too. Hydogen is not a fuel source, it is a energy transport system. You feed energy into the production of hydrogen and you get it back out (less than you put in!) when you burn it.

The future of this planet depends on using energy production that is cheaper (in the long run) than fossil fuels. Wind, solar and tidal is the answer. There are a lot of scientists working on those problems to make them viable. Then once you have made the energy, you need to store and transport it. Thats when battery tech (needs more work!), hydrogen and ethanol transport systems come into play. The energy supplier companys would slowly turn into energy storers and regulators.

my .002 (inflation :)) of course :)

E85 is an interesting fuel for street rodders. I would love to have a higher compression motor to take advantage of the octane E85 has. Unfortunately with E85 you can't freely switch back to gasoline on a carberated motor the way you can with fuel injection. The AF ratio is lower with E85 and the carb must be fattened up. Ethanol is corrosive also which translates into special materials needed in the fuel system.

As for the rants about E85, I think some folks are missing the point. E85 is about reducing emissions and dependancy on foreign oil. Right now corn and sugar cain are the most common sources and the refining process isn't as efficient as Oil. I see that scientists are looking at using switch grass which has more energy per pound than either corn or sugar cain and grows just about anywhere.

In any event it seems some folks have the wrong impression of what E85 is for. It's not a scam, it's american enginuity at work. If Ethanol is going to be a viable energy source, it will take time to make it cost effective - same as other alternative fuels.

I work at the dealer and this E85 crap is a scam. Actually everything about all this gas shortage, and everything else is a scam too but dont get me started! :-D

Economically viable or not, the main thing about E85 is that we are not buying from people that hate us. I say independence at any price is worth having. Yes I know that the energy put in does not equal what comes out but we have to start somewhere. It is only part of the solution as biodiesel and more diesel engines are part of the solution.

Both our driver cars are "E85" compatible. Funny thing is that it isn't even available for us to use in Phoenix. I have yet to see E85 here at all.
I had some fun with the dealer back in February when we got the wifes car, he was touting the E85 until I asked him where we could buy some........

Perhaps 'scam' was too strong a word. But I can't help but feel that this program was ill thought out in the first place. The effect on food prices was predictible and a big negative to the whole idea. Switch grass technology is probably a decade away from production and the interim effects are very costly to the average consumer.

Just about everything in a take out menu is from corn... the syrup in the soda, the oil tor the fries and the feed for the chicken.

It seemed more of a bandaid subsidy to farmers to increase wealth out in the farm belt and soldiify support for the existing voter base.

America HAS enough energy. Canada is the number one exporter of energy to the US and we do not 'hate you'.

It takes a progressive action like building more nuclear reactors. Diverting Natural Gas from power plants and converting to LNG. Clean coal technology is already a present and viable option. Coal reserves in the US are HUGE and could power the nation for generations. This leaves the US oil reserves available for existing automobile technology and allows years to ramp up alternative technologies.

It was a good idea that was implemented too fast, and without enough thought about the effects on the average consumer.

The program will quietly die after the next election I hope.

Let me be clearer. When the US buys oil fron Venezuela or any arab country, we are supporting people that hate us. I was not refering to Canada. It is not ethanol alone contributing to food price increases. It is also transportation (petroleum). I agree on the nuclear sorce as well.

I work for a dealership and have an E85 "flexfuel" demo crew cab truck that I drive daily. On regular fuel I get 14mpg and on E85 I get low 12's mpg. It is readily available by me (Indiana) and is spreading throughout the nation. Nobody likes change, but how can an alternative be bad? I pay roughly $.60 less per gallon for E-85. Competition once it is available everywhere should start to bring pricing to an equalibrium. Is it a good thing that you only can run on regular fuel and they jack the price up 20-30 cents on a whim? Anyway, I am building a 565 Dart BBC for my 68 Camaro that will run on it for a couple simple reasons:

1. 105 octane so I can run 13:1 compression and squeeze more power out of each gallon.
2. Cooling of the intake charge
3. Cheaper than both regular fuel and racing gas
4. My $$$ goes to Joe the farmer instead of Achmed the sand driller

I'll have dyno numbers soon to share.

And the whole thing of food use corn being "diverted" to make ethanol is a load of bull. I have farmers in the family and they tell me how it is a diverent variant of corn that yields the best ethanol right now. The OEM manufacturers will continue to push the "flexfuel" option along with hybrids as they get a credit to partially offset the horrible mileage all the current trucks and suvs get.
Thats my .02

Ethanol is only cheaper because of a $0.43 per E85 gallon federal tax credit, and even then, it's only barely cheaper--don't forget to adjust the prices to energy content (fuel economy) when comparing E85 to straight gas. You can compare fuel economy ratings for E85 vs gasoline at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/download.shtml to get a ballpark, or measure it on your own vehicle. And if you measure it, you need to do long term averages, or create identical test environments. 14vs12 is bogus--there had to be different operating conditions. That's a 15% decrease, it should be a 20% to 30% decrease.

Do not get confused with E85 (85% ethanol) and 10% ethanol mix with Gasoline. The 10% will not effect carbs or EFIs much. The 85% really takes changes to the car. read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85


I agree the whole "corn to fuel" is a crock and should be abandoned. Ethanol as a fuel is viable, but the feedstock has to come from something other than food, should be switch grass or similar. The latest contender is cyanobacteria: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/04/080423115917.htm


The hydrogen economy is a joke too. Hydogen is not a fuel source, it is a energy transport system. You feed energy into the production of hydrogen and you get it back out (less than you put in!) when you burn it.

The future of this planet depends on using energy production that is cheaper (in the long run) than fossil fuels. Wind, solar and tidal is the answer. There are a lot of scientists working on those problems to make them viable. Then once you have made the energy, you need to store and transport it. Thats when battery tech (needs more work!), hydrogen and ethanol transport systems come into play. The energy supplier companys would slowly turn into energy storers and regulators.

my .002 (inflation :)) of course :)


You got it!
Guys look at the future http://www.teslamotors.com/
If this car can be charged on solar when you get home we nailed it. That makes us One step away from our goals to have a decent car and independence.

As a country we've made almost no effort to get off foriegn oil, there are huge lobby's that support that lack of effort. The spin that these lobbies put out is that ethanol cannot be produced at the quantity needed, and that even if it is that it's a lower quality fuel. There certainly are problems with our current corn ethanol production, our farming infastructure is designed to produce food for people, not fuel for cars. Hell, we're still paying some farmers not to grow anything.
If we spent just a fraction of the money we hemmorage out to foriegn oil on our farming technology we would be well on the road to energy independence. You need only take a look a Brazil, they were smart enough to see the writing on the wall during the last big oil squeeze, they farm sugar cane for ethanol and it's the norm at their pumps(and it's alot cheaper than our gas), they don't import any foriegn oil.
We need to have the will, and sense of self-preservation to make this happen.
Renewable, clean, domestically produced energy will make us all stronger.
We'll figure out how to make 700hp with it :thumbsup:

Oil is available and in the US, Canada and Mexico. Problem is in congress. We need more legislation to allow drilling on our own soil and waters. Its there and its also a little deeper. What will it take for leadership to understand this. How much will John Q Public have to suffer with this so called fuel crunch. Oil for years was cheaper to purchase from outside countries, but the public paid a higher price, oil companies and refineries got the middle cut. Now, if we would just be allowed to drill on our own lands.

Where's Eric68 to talk about his 10 second E85 camaro? He posted an encyclopedia over at innovate when he was dialing in his carb to run E85. At least I think it is him would be a strange coincidence if it wasn't.

Oil is available and in the US, Canada and Mexico. Problem is in congress. We need more legislation to allow drilling on our own soil and waters. Now, if we would just be allowed to drill on our own lands.

That is not gonna stop Exxon and the other big oil company's from jamming it up our ass, they will continue to rape us at the pump no matter where the crude oil is coming from.....They need to be regulated and limits need to be set on the profits they can reap.
As long as we as Americans keep rich money grubbing people in office we will continue to be screwed, the wealthy politicians don't give a rats ass about the middle and lower class, all they care about is padding there own wallets.

That is not gonna stop Exxon and the other big oil company's from jamming it up our ass, they will continue to rape us at the pump no matter where the crude oil is coming from.....They need to be regulated and limits need to be set on the profits they can reap.
As long as we as Americans keep rich money grubbing people in office we will continue to be screwed, the wealthy politicians don't give a rats ass about the middle and lower class, all they care about is padding there own wallets.

Don't hold back Joe, LOL! I couldn't agree more though!

I'm also thinking that there must be a better way. I'm just not buying that there isn't an alternative to oil....If oil money didn't rule the planet I feel pretty confident that we'd have multiple alternatives by now.

That is not gonna stop Exxon and the other big oil company's from jamming it up our ass, they will continue to rape us at the pump no matter where the crude oil is coming from.....They need to be regulated and limits need to be set on the profits they can reap.
As long as we as Americans keep rich money grubbing people in office we will continue to be screwed, the wealthy politicians don't give a rats ass about the middle and lower class, all they care about is padding there own wallets.


I actually just read an article about exxonmobile saying that the company will probably not even be around by 2018. They are saying this because apparently exxon is not spending any of its profits (11 billion in the first quarter alone) on dicovery or development of new oil fields like their opec counterparts. They are quietly buying up all their own stocks with their profit so that they can become a private company and then turn around and sell off all of their assets and put a huge paycheck at the end of it all in their own pockets. And i wouldn't be suprised if opec is waiting at their door to buy up all their stuff when and if it happens.

And as far as the ethanol driving up food prices, that is a load of bullshtick. As was said before the corn that is used for the ethanol is of a different hybrid. And before you say the corn that is being used as ethanol is taking away from the corn used to feed livestock making the price of meat higher is a load too because they use the ethanol byproduct to feed the livestock. The price of the food is largly influenced by fuel prices. My .02

Ethanol is only cheaper because of a $0.43 per E85 gallon federal tax credit, and even then, it's only barely cheaper--don't forget to adjust the prices to energy content (fuel economy) when comparing E85 to straight gas. You can compare fuel economy ratings for E85 vs gasoline at http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/download.shtml to get a ballpark, or measure it on your own vehicle. And if you measure it, you need to do long term averages, or create identical test environments. 14vs12 is bogus--there had to be different operating conditions. That's a 15% decrease, it should be a 20% to 30% decrease.

That is based on my usual driving (mostly city) for 5000 miles each. I use a demo until miles are up and then jump into another and they both have handy computer read outs for mileage. If you check the EPA fuel ratings both of those figures are in the given range so it can't just be me.

BTW I am NOT a lobbyist for the government or on the take for the ethanol crowd, just tired of limited options.

We have all heard about cars that have been converted to propane. Here in Wyoming they are drilling thousands of methane gas wells and pumping the methane into the natural gas systems. Methane is created by the rotting process. We all know that America has landfills and these landfills create methane gas. Manure piles create methane gas. My reasoning-stop with the ethanol, leave corn in the food chain, create a scavanger system that will capture the gas from landfills and barnyards, and create engines that run on this methane. The leftovers from methane would be compost that could replenish the fields that produce the corn that feeds the cow that makes the manure that makes the methane that we burn, and the cycle repeats itself. Now, if only I could be a politician...

Hi
I'm a farmer and a new member to this site. It is very troubling to me how uneducated the public is toward the basics of where their food comes from. The corn used for fuel is not the same corn that humans eat. The corn used for fuel is number 2 yellow corn the same used to fatten cattle, hogs or chickens. So before the ethanol boom corn was feed directly to these animals. Now corn is sold to an ethanol plant processed to produce ethanol and the byproduct called distillers grain or DDG's is fed to the livestock. Every gallon of ethanol used is just that much less dependent we are on forign oil. Not to mention cleaner emmissions. Do i think ethanol is the answer? no. If one thinks back ethanol is used to replace an additive in gas to help reduce emmissions. We as a society continue to learn and evolve into better smarter people. I wish people won't get so radical and blame one thing solely for another issue that arrises. In 10 or 20 years we'll know what was right. On a lighter note the increase in the price of corn has allowed me to purchase the 68 ss which is the reason I found this site. Please think about this. a farmer buys his inputs to raise a crop at retail prices ie pays what ever the fertilizer guy wants for his product, pays whatever the seed co. wants for their seed but sells their product at wholesale. Tad

That is not gonna stop Exxon and the other big oil company's from jamming it up our ass, they will continue to rape us at the pump no matter where the crude oil is coming from.....They need to be regulated and limits need to be set on the profits they can reap.
As long as we as Americans keep rich money grubbing people in office we will continue to be screwed, the wealthy politicians don't give a rats ass about the middle and lower class, all they care about is padding there own wallets.
It bothers me when I here someone say this. You want to penalize US owned oil companies and inhibit their ability to compete with the larger foreign owned companies? High oil prices are a global problem and Exxon is not the largest oil company. The largest oil companies are foreign nationalized ones.

You want to penalize US owned oil companies and inhibit their ability to compete with the larger foreign owned companies?

yes, yes and heck ya! regulation worked for the railroads and the airlines, and it should work for the oil companies. who says they have a right to become global, anyway? they are an american institution whose top business priorty should be to serve the american public. if it takes regulation to do so, then it should happen. this is about america being a world superpower at a global level , not an oil company trying being a superpower of profits on a corporate one. larger things are at stake here.

It bothers me when I here someone say this. You want to penalize US owned oil companies and inhibit their ability to compete with the larger foreign owned companies? High oil prices are a global problem and Exxon is not the largest oil company. The largest oil companies are foreign nationalized ones.

IT may bother you but its TRUE, and that should bother us all.:mad:

yes, yes and heck ya! regulation worked for the railroads and the airlines, and it should work for the oil companies. who says they have a right to become global, anyway? they are an american institution whose top business priorty should be to serve the american public. if it takes regulation to do so, then it should happen. this is about america being a world superpower at a global level , not an oil company trying being a superpower of profits on a corporate one. larger things are at stake here.
"Who says they have the right to become global?"

I'm not sure what you are advocating or how to respond other than to say it sounds a little utopian and isolationist.

I'm thinking I need to get back on topic. I'm not sure about the 10% ethanol pumps here in Texas, I seem to recall a sticker on some pumps saying they may contain 10% ethanol. I spend most of my time (and money) filling up my diesel truck. For my '68 I run the highest octane unleaded I can find and mix it 50/50 with race gas.

We have all heard about cars that have been converted to propane. Here in Wyoming they are drilling thousands of methane gas wells and pumping the methane into the natural gas systems. Methane is created by the rotting process. We all know that America has landfills and these landfills create methane gas. Manure piles create methane gas. My reasoning-stop with the ethanol, leave corn in the food chain, create a scavanger system that will capture the gas from landfills and barnyards, and create engines that run on this methane. The leftovers from methane would be compost that could replenish the fields that produce the corn that feeds the cow that makes the manure that makes the methane that we burn, and the cycle repeats itself. Now, if only I could be a politician...

In this case I guess we will be buying more methane from Mexico than anyplace else..........those darned Re-fried beans make plenty of methane gas also.

Remember the old joke....Save gas fart in a jar? It could become a reality :D

IT may bother you but its TRUE, and that should bother us all.:mad:
It's true?
Oil companies are an easy target (someone says "Oh Wow I just paid $4.50 a gallon at Exxon - and just look at those profits, we need to penalize them!").
The oil companies do not set the price of crude. The price is set in the commodities markets and is driven by basic supply and demand, declining value of the dollar, political instability in exporting countries, politics, fear, speculation, etc.
What's to gain by taxing US oil companies? You want them to be less able to compete against foreign nationalized companies. Do you own or have a pension fund, 401K, mutual funds - then you just might be a stock holder of one of these big bad oil companies. In essence then you would advocate taxing yourself and losing value in your investments. Yes, the oil companies are enjoying large profits these days, do you remember how their profits were five years ago, ten, twenty. I remember lots of layoffs, downsizing, etc. in the past. Lots of companies in other industries make huge profits, remember the dot.com boom, does that mean that we should tax companies just because they have a good year or two.

If your so concerned about the high price do something about it. Don't buy the product or buy less. Sell your gas hog Camaro and get a vintage bike. I'll buy it for the right price.

Sorry, but getting goverment involved is sometimes not the best idea.

"Who says they have the right to become global?"

I'm not sure what you are advocating or how to respond other than to say it sounds a little utopian and isolationist.



it was a rhetorical question with the obvious answer: 'we the people'. i'm not in any way an isolationist or utopian, but i don't belive it is right for any company that conducts any business to hold the country hostage with high prices and say in the same breath 'it's not our fault the prices are so high and we just broke our profit record again this qtr'. what they are doing may be legal for now but it is wrong. we the people have the power to change that and make what's wrong illegal as well.

it was a rhetorical question with the obvious answer: 'we the people'. i'm not in any way an isolationist or utopian, but i don't belive it is right for any company that conducts any business to hold the country hostage with high prices and say in the same breath 'it's not our fault the prices are so high and we just broke our profit record again this qtr'. what they are doing may be legal for now but it is wrong. we the people have the power to change that and make what's wrong illegal as well.
I think you are confused.

Big oil and gas companies are made up of essentially two parts, a marketing and refining part and an exploration and production part. The big profits are being made on the production end where existing fields that used to sell oil at 20-50 dollars a barrel are now selling it at over 100 dollars a barrel. The marketing end which sets the price at the pump does not enjoy that type of profit. There is nothing illegal about selling something at high market prices. It happens in many different industries.

Analogy: Suppose you had a field of 1000 '69 Z28 Camaros since 1969 and you could only produce them at a rate of one or two per year. What price would you be asking for this years cars?
Current market price? Should there be a law that makes you sell them for the price in 1969 or a lower price?

Again, Oil companies are not setting the price of a barrel of oil. The oil companies are trying to do one thing and that's give it's investors (you might be one - see my prior post) the best return on their investment.

Let's get back to discussing Camaros, which have also had their prices inflated due to market forces.

You can PM me if you desire to have additional discussion regarding this subject.

Mods: feel free to delete this part of the discussion.

I talked to my uncle that is in GM, I can't say what part. But few weeks back he sent me some information about ethanol 10% that is in the gas you use.

E85 compatibility is designated for vehicles that are certified to run on up
to 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. All other gasoline engines are designed to
run on fuel that contains no more than 10% ethanol.

Notice: Use of fuel containing greater than 10% ethanol in non-E85
designated vehicles can cause drivability issues, service engine soon
indicators as well as increased fuel system corrosion.

It depends on the vehicle you have if it has a E85 compatible engine it can burn up to 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline.
All other gasoline engines can burn up to a 10% mix of ethanol and 90 gasoline such as Hess is selling based on this Service bulletin below. If you aren't sure if your vehicle has the E85 engine E-mail me the VIN # and I will run it on the GM Vehicle Information System that will tell us the options if it was built with the full E85 compatible engine allowing you to use 85% ethanol.
Using E85 Fuels in Non-Compatible Vehicles
General Motors is aware of an increased number of cases where customers have
fueled non-FlexFuel designated vehicles with E85. Fueling non-FlexFuel
designated vehicles with E85, or with fuels where the concentration of
ethanol exceeds the ASTM specification of 10%, will result in one or more of
the following conditions:

. Lean Drivability concerns such as hesitations, sags and / or
possible stalling.

. SES lights due to OBD codes.

. Fuel Trim codes P0171 and / or P0174.

. Misfire codes (P0300).

. Various O2 sensor codes.

. Disabled traction control or Stability System disabled messages.

. Harsh / Firm transmission shifts.

. Fuel system and / or engine mechanical component degradation.

Notice: Use of fuel containing greater than 10% ethanol in non-E85
designated vehicles can cause drivability issues, service engine soon
indicators as well as increased fuel system corrosion.

I don't want to post it all, but if you want to email me, you can for it.
I think the Ethanol is another way of taxing the gas, and paying the farmer to not grow cattle. I know you've seen the price of steaks now days or what about a watermelon, one day I saw watermelon for $7.00 this thing was small. I can grow them myself where I live.



You got it!
Guys look at the future http://www.teslamotors.com/
If this car can be charged on solar when you get home we nailed it. That makes us One step away from our goals to have a decent car and independence.

I think you are confused.

Big oil and gas companies are made up of essentially two parts, a marketing and refining part and an exploration and production part. The big profits are being made on the production end where existing fields that used to sell oil at 20-50 dollars a barrel are now selling it at over 100 dollars a barrel. The marketing end which sets the price at the pump does not enjoy that type of profit. There is nothing illegal about selling something at high market prices. It happens in many different industries.

Analogy: Suppose you had a field of 1000 '69 Z28 Camaros since 1969 and you could only produce them at a rate of one or two per year. What price would you be asking for this years cars?
Current market price? Should there be a law that makes you sell them for the price in 1969 or a lower price?

Again, Oil companies are not setting the price of a barrel of oil. The oil companies are trying to do one thing and that's give it's investors (you might be one - see my prior post) the best return on their investment.

Let's get back to discussing Camaros, which have also had their prices inflated due to market forces.

You can PM me if you desire to have additional discussion regarding this subject.

Mods: feel free to delete this part of the discussion.

i don't think the mods will delete this. we're not breaking any rules and providing lovely entertainment at the same time around here! although we completely disagree, the debate is still fun and i think everyone appreciates our civility.

as for 'there is nothing illegal about selling something at high market prices', sometimes it is and in this case should be illegal, imho. as for the camaro analogy, if the camaros affected national security and are the cornerstone of the economy, then yes, they should be made to sell them at the '68 price. we are americans, not 'capatilists till the end'! this is becoming an anit-trust/monopoly issue here. remember Ma Bell? if it hurts the country, it gets regulated and i think the sooner the better!

i don't think the mods will delete this. we're not breaking any rules and providing lovely entertainment at the same time around here! although we completely disagree, the debate is still fun and i think everyone appreciates our civility.

as for 'there is nothing illegal about selling something at high market prices', sometimes it is and in this case should be illegal, imho. as for the camaro analogy, if the camaros affected national security and are the cornerstone of the economy, then yes, they should be made to sell them at the '68 price. we are americans, not 'capatilists till the end'! this is becoming an anit-trust/monopoly issue here. remember Ma Bell? if it hurts the country, it gets regulated and i think the sooner the better!


Keep the regulations and price controls out of energy, PLEASE! Unless, you want it to cost more,and be of a lesser quality. Congress has been..lets say dysfunctional for at least the past 20 years by my count. You want to give them more authority?...Not me! That goes for both parties!

Here goes.......

Gents, its a global fuel crisis, not just a Made in the USA problem. Fuel in Europe is still much higher than it is here. Are US oil companies to blame for this as well?

Supply and demand...its that simple. Our consumption is the highest on the planet ,and demand is higher than ever with the emerging economies of China and now India. It all takes oil fellas. The OPEC boys have the world by the short hairs, and they know it. If they increased production, prices would fall,but they will not.

To add insult to injury, it was just reported that 60% of the hike in oil prices is due to futures speculation, not the actual supply right now.

Punishing oil companies is not the answer. In fact punishing any kind of success of a viable business almost always hurts the little guy. As was mentioned, a good portion of us have energy stocks in our 401Ks, and these would fall with more taxation,regs,etc. To think otherwise is naivete in its purest form.

Frankly, the Federal government earns more net per gallon of gas than the oil companies- 5-6 cents versus 16 depending on the publication. As far as national security, if it were threatened, do you really not think we'd be pumping our own right now? I know I do. Too much would be at stake to stand by and take no action.

What can we do? Its pretty simple-

Increase production of oil ( We have the ability to explore and then drill ALOT more here, but the tree huggers and other special interest groups just won't allow us to increase supply.) Oil shale, drilling in parts of Alaska and more are all routinely forbidden by the left, yet they want to gripe about oil prices...Sheesh!
Decrease consumption- So far we are 6-7% down depending on the publication. A nice start, but we need to do alot more here.
Develop an energy independence program for the US- We need to get the lawmakers to stop bickering for a short time to develop this. We put men on the moon almost FORTY years ago..we can CERTAINLY do this. A comprehensive plan consisting of conservation, strategic exploration and drilling, and a shift to alternative fuel sources complete with timelines for completion would be a good start. All we need to be is willing.

But here IT is........

Find another energy source!



Sorry for the babble, but this was all a setup for this COOL video... This guy might be onto something BIG. Would make for more trips to the beach, but take a look... Good old AMERICAN ingenuity!


Saltwater anyone?





http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b339/belairbobs/th_saltwater1-1.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b339/belairbobs/?action=view&current=saltwater1-1.flv)

The secretary of agriculture actually said that the cost of food was not going up because of the diversion of corn to ethanol because it was feed corn, you know, the kind you feed to cattle, chickens and pigs. DUH. I can't believe the morons we have in government. They could not survive in the private sector.

I was in Dubai UAE last year. The Shiek or Prince or whatever he is called is investing billions to build the area into a tourist destination. They are positioning themselves to have another industry when their oil is gone.
After hearing that, I am wondering if our government restricting US oil exploration or drilling is a long term strategic move?
On a recent trip to China I noticed gas was very inexpensive compared to ours, I think it was around $2.00 a gallon calculated. Chinese government subsidizes gas prices I was told.
Europe has been the equivalent of $5-6/gallon for a long time. I personnally believe this price is where we are heading in the long term.

it was a rhetorical question with the obvious answer: 'we the people'. i'm not in any way an isolationist or utopian, but i don't belive it is right for any company that conducts any business to hold the country hostage with high prices and say in the same breath 'it's not our fault the prices are so high and we just broke our profit record again this qtr'. what they are doing may be legal for now but it is wrong. we the people have the power to change that and make what's wrong illegal as well.

Jimmy Carter already tried regulating oil prices back in the 70's. That's what caused the gas shortages in the 70's.

More recently, we had gas shortages in the southeast right after hurricane Katrina because of damage to the gasonline pipeline. There was actually plenty of gas in storage tanks here in Atlanta to handle the normal needs of the metro Atlanta area for the days until the pipeline was operational again, but due to hype from local and national media, damn near everyone in Atlanta went out and topped off their tank in 1 day, and many even went out and bought a bunch gas cans and filled them up too. At the same time, the Governor was making speeches about prosecuting store owners for price gouging if they raised their prices. If they had allowed prices to react to market demand, prices would have shot up, but hoarding would have been drastically reduced, and we wouldn't have run out of gas.

i skipped most of this thread, because i know how every E85 thread on every automotive board goes, what with all the "experts" on everything from the problems that will happen to the fuel system to the "food for fuel thing" they talk about on tv and all over the internet to the solution to our dependence on foreign oil..
but i'll say that i've been running a 50% mix of E85 and 87 octane in my 84 Regal T Type, and it runs great except for a bit of cold bloodedness until the motor gets some heat in it after a minute or so- but that just makes me feel like i'm driving a cantankerous old musclecar, so it's alright. the only reason i don't run it straight is because the mileage drops considerably above 50% corn juice- up to that point, it gets the exact same mileage as straight 87 and better than either 91 or non oxygenated 93 octane.
my gas tank is still in one piece, the stock fuel pump still pumps, regulator still regulates, and injectors still inject. the filter never gets clogged- in fact, when i change it, it looks brand new inside.
and, the best part- beyond the 20psi of boost i can run on it and the 90 cent price differential per gallon it's currently at around here- is that when it's idling, it smells like a race car with the corn fumes coming out the tail pipes.
whenever i get my hands on another 305HO head, i'm going to put them on my Monte to bump the compression to run it in that car, too.

i skipped most of this thread, because i know how every E85 thread on every automotive board goes, what with all the "experts" on everything from the problems that will happen to the fuel system to the "food for fuel thing" they talk about on tv and all over the internet to the solution to our dependence on foreign oil..
but i'll say that i've been running a 50% mix of E85 and 87 octane in my 84 Regal T Type, and it runs great except for a bit of cold bloodedness until the motor gets some heat in it after a minute or so- but that just makes me feel like i'm driving a cantankerous old musclecar, so it's alright. the only reason i don't run it straight is because the mileage drops considerably above 50% corn juice- up to that point, it gets the exact same mileage as straight 87 and better than either 91 or non oxygenated 93 octane.
my gas tank is still in one piece, the stock fuel pump still pumps, regulator still regulates, and injectors still inject. the filter never gets clogged- in fact, when i change it, it looks brand new inside.
and, the best part- beyond the 20psi of boost i can run on it and the 90 cent price differential per gallon it's currently at around here- is that when it's idling, it smells like a race car with the corn fumes coming out the tail pipes.
whenever i get my hands on another 305HO head, i'm going to put them on my Monte to bump the compression to run it in that car, too.

The experts say you can't do that and your killing starving kids in Africa......you better think twice before doing any more of this fuelish stuff ;)

If we had it here I would be doing the same as you!! :yes:

Also all the cars at the Indy 500 ran fuel grade ethenol today. Now what ever fuel grade means I don't know.

Joe

i think "fuel grade" means that they put something in it to keep the pit guys from drinking a few gallons after the race to celebrate the win or console themselves over their wrecked cars.

OPEC learned their lesson as to what happens when reduced consumption is supply, vs demand oriented, their crap in the 70's with disrupting fuel supplies jump started the dramatic funding to find alternative reliable energy sources, Not good for OPEC, so they remedied their mistake some 2 decades earlier... they flooded the World with cheap oil in the 90's, which served to discourage research into alternative sources of energy which had grown through the late 70's and 80's with research funding peaking in the early 90's. With the influx of cheap oil, alternative energy research was reduced and generally viewed as producing dismal ROI's on R&D funding.
So it is the late 90's and with no alternatives being developed, no exploration in our own country, no new refineries in the US, no drilling on the coasts, we are at the whims of a bunch of 2 bit thugs whose manipulation of the price of oil has transfered vast sums of currency from the US to the middle east. China, India, and the rest of the developing world will continue to consume oil at an even more staggering pace which will only increase the demand on supply.
What are we going to do?
We need to build more Nuke plants,
we have the largest coal and natural gas reserves in the world,
drill ANWAR,
drill the coasts,
Gasification of coal
EXPLOIT our resources and keep our money at home ...

Let's tell OPEC to use the product we found and developed to have the largest greased pig wrestling contest in the world!

yes, yes and heck ya! regulation worked for the railroads and the airlines, and it should work for the oil companies. who says they have a right to become global, anyway? they are an american institution whose top business priorty should be to serve the american public. if it takes regulation to do so, then it should happen. this is about america being a world superpower at a global level , not an oil company trying being a superpower of profits on a corporate one. larger things are at stake here.

John, John, John. Regulation almost killed the railroad industry. It might have punished a few people back in the 'Robber Baron' days of the late 1800's and early 1900's, but why do you think we wound up with Amtrak and Conrail? It's because all of the railroads were going bankrupt due to government interference. It wasn't until the Staggers Act of the 1980's that the government realized they were going to own all of the rails in the country if they didn't back off on their ridiculous regulations. It's taken over 20 years for the railroads to finally become profitable enough for investors to start buying stock in serious numbers. As a result, the government is AGAIN talking about regulations. They never learn!

I don't know of any airlines that are benefiting from regulation. Many of them are also struggling to avoid bankruptcy, if they are not already in it. If you think that you are benefiting as a consumer, then you haven't flown recently. In their effort to survive, most airlines have let courtesy fall by the wayside. They treat you like a criminal at the worst and as an inconvenience at best. I can't tell you the last time I enjoyed flying somewhere.

On top of the supply and demand theory of why fuel is going through the roof, we have buffoons like our own beloved Senator Chuck Schumer and that dolt of a mayor in New York City who want to punish us into buying ugly vehicles that no one wants to drive. I thought in America we were supposed to have freedom of choice.

The crowd who thinks we deserve to pay more at the pump better not complain when they have to pay more for everything from apples to Zest soap. How do you think these products get to market? Not by some wind-powered ship or a solar-powered semi. As a country, we have vast coal reserves and coal-burning technology is cleaner than it’s ever been. When was the last time you heard about acid rain? Those days are largely over due to the low-sulfur coal coming out of Wyoming's Powder River basin as well as continually evolving low-emissions technology. In the meantime, power plants are converting to natural gas as fast as they can. Why, when natural gas is also in limited supply? It’s mostly so they can appear to be ‘green’ to ignorant consumers, not because it’s cheaper, more energy efficient or kinder to the planet.

Sorry, I’m not a big fan of government involvement in the marketplace. I want them to protect me with a strong military, keep an eye on the Enron-type crooks and make sure the food, water and medicine we buy is safe. Beyond that, I want them to butt out.

Check this out:

http://www.efuel100.com/default.aspx

Check this out:

http://www.efuel100.com/default.aspx

Thats a little pricey.... @ $10,000 it would take forever to break even, and being limited to sugar and yeast is no bonus either because they will run the price of sugar threw the roof claiming there is a projected shortage, this is a no win situation we are in, it just pisses me off to hear the GIGANTIC PROFITS the oil companys are making at our expense...

Thats a little pricey.... @ $10,000 it would take forever to break even, and being limited to sugar and yeast is no bonus either because they will run the price of sugar threw the roof claiming there is a projected shortage, this is a no win situation we are in, it just pisses me off to hear the GIGANTIC PROFITS the oil companys are making at our expense...

I agree it's expensive to start with but I did a little reading on (again little) at the site and other places. This thing will take sugar from old soda, beer, booze, soda water from say pepsi or coke and many other sources and convert it. It was intresting reading but that's all I really know. I think if the sytem was allot cheaper they could be onto something. From what i was reading there are tons of sources for sugar and being Diabetic I agree with that ....:D....ummm I wonder if old glucose test strips would work also ;)

Joe

next thing you now, hillbillies will be selling moonshine in 5 gallon gas cans...

At $4.00 a gallon $10,000 buys 2500 gallons of gas. At 25 MPG thats 62500 miles. But my average fuel economy here is NOT 25 MPG. The wife and pennypincher tells me our combined fuel cost for the last two months was $500 each month. That makes that $10,000 last only 20 months! But I don't think that Efuel thing can produce it as fast as I/we burn it.
Just my .02 YMMV

Jeff

it just pisses me off to hear the GIGANTIC PROFITS the oil companys are making at our expense...

That's a tired old song, if you only look at it in terms of raw dollars, without comparing it to gross revenues (like our bumbling politicians do, so they can pander to uninformed/misinformed voters); oil company profits are in the 7%-8% area, which is lower than the average for large businesses, and just enough to keep the stockholders off their backs.

:beers:

Thanks JohnZ, I get tired of the political crud too. If the government had to produce a product they would be out of business. I wish.

If the government is going to regulate an industry they may as well just nationalize the industry, which by the way is how we ended up with the RR mess. FDR nationalized the RR's during WWII... he made all the RR employees of the government so they could not strike.
Government intervention is flawed because it favors one industry or business over another, the federal government should provide nothing more than what is expressly authorized by the constitution. Seems to me Congress could use the Constitution as a scapegoat whenever some group comes asking for something from the Federal government. Crop Subsidies... can't find that one, sorry. Ethanol subsidies... can't find that one either... The list would go on and on and on... but on the bright side Congress would not have near as much to do, so your local elected officials errr LAWYERS would most likely be siphoning more cash off industry through their ludicrous lawsuits.
The legal profession is the most over represented in our government, (local, State, and Federal) most times there is a near majority or so close it they can control the way the vote goes. And it goes to making more laws... more laws = more lawyers and more money (fines, regulations, etc) and more importantly, control over the people.
What other profession regulates itself?
What other profession has the ability to effectively enact laws which propogate the profession?
What other profession writes the laws (politicians), is on either side of the table during trials (lawyers), applies the laws (judges), and regulates itself (Bar association)?
Banking may be the only profession as corrupt.

I personally am quite angry about E85 ethanol, I get about 15% less gas mileage and for the same price per gallon... I'm sending my computer to Texas Speed for programming soon and I'm going to see what they can do as far as tuning to burn the E85/Gasoline blend more efficiently. Has anyone else experienced a fall in fuel burn efficiency since they started the 90/10 blend?

I personally am quite angry about E85 ethanol, I get about 15% less gas mileage and for the same price per gallon... I'm sending my computer to Texas Speed for programming soon and I'm going to see what they can do as far as tuning to burn the E85/Gasoline blend more efficiently. Has anyone else experienced a fall in fuel burn efficiency since they started the 90/10 blend?

fyi, that's E10--10% ethanol, 90% gasoline. E85 is 85% ethanol, 15% gasoline.

Decrease in fuel mileage is directly related to the fact that Ethanol contains less energy per gallon than gas. I've read what the exact energy contents are but I don't readily have them available at this time. If you are really interested I'm sure you can get them by doing a Google search.

Decrease in fuel mileage is directly related to the fact that Ethanol contains less energy per gallon than gas. I've read what the exact energy contents are but I don't readily have them available at this time. If you are really interested I'm sure you can get them by doing a Google search.

Although you are putting 10-15% more fuel in, if you have compression to take advantage of the 105 octane you can make incredible power on fuel that is cheaper than 87 octane gas. I have a 565 BBC that runs on E85 and makes north of 800hp. It is not an "all out" race motor but I think nicely shows what alot of guys that want some power for their 90% street driven hotrod without $8/gallon race fuel. If you check out all the pump gas drags or similar competitions, E85 is taking over. Another nice benefit is the cooling properties of ethyl-alcohol. I had very little to change in order to use E85 so for me it was a no-brainer. E85 runs .50 to 1.00 cheaper per gallon by me (NW Indiana) so again, easy choice.
As far as fuel consumption, while my motor was on the dyno we observed a very similar rate to regular premium pump gas. We figured it used roughly 10% more which is easily covered by the cheaper cost. Any questions fire away, I love this stuff!!

Sorry, ethanol from corn is a huge scam. When you tariff ethanol from Brazil from sugarcane to protect corn producers while simultaneously raising prices of chicken, beef, tacos and such, that is a scam. Look at who has been enriched. ADM

Sorry, ethanol from corn is a huge scam. When you tariff ethanol from Brazil from sugarcane to protect corn producers while simultaneously raising prices of chicken, beef, tacos and such, that is a scam. Look at who has been enriched. ADM

I agree the subsidies need to go away on ethanol. Production of ethanol seems to be going away from corn and to other items like grass, woodchips, and even a garbage conversion plant by me. If they use corn the byproduct is distiller's grain and it is still used to feed livestock. The only thing that is removed is the starch to make sugar to make alcohol. There is a lot of mis-information and our press is the most uninformed people with the biggest voice...
Just my .02
Steve

Just an update on E85 availability. I-65 became the first bio-fuel highway in the US with E-85 available the entire length from Gary, Indiana all the way down deep in Alabama. B20 Diesel is also either currently available or will be by year end. GM started to publicize this fact by running some of the E85 compatible vehicles the whole route...
As I posted before the movement is from corn based extraction to other sources. Either way it is just one method of slowing our foreign petroleum addiction.