I burned up a cam a while back, and have been frustrated with all the conflicting opinions on oil for flat tappet cams.

Some of you may know this already, but I'm always intersted in hearing more facts..
I found some very interesting Q&A and FAQ's on Zinc and Phospherous (ZDDP) levels..

in 2006, EPA made oil companies reduce ZDDP levels for cars.
In 2007, EPA began enforcing this, and demanded ZDDP levels drop for Diesel vehicles also.
Higher ZDDP burnout catalytic converters, and increases carbon emmissions in newer (roller) vehicles.
Oil companies can sell oil with higher ZDDP levels as "Racing" oils or "Break-in" oil, but must state "Not for street use" on the label.
Mobile 1 and Valvoline admit the levels in these oils will benefit flat tappet engines, (engines older than 1988)..
But they do not meet the original SF rating required for these engines.
ZDDPlus is one (of many) Zinc/Phosphurous additives, and sold at many locations..
GM used to sell a product called EOS, but stopped selling it in the US due to EPA regulations, (EOS can still be purchased in Canada).

ZDDPlus
http://zddplus.com/index.htm#FAQ-WhatDoOilGradesMean (http://zddplus.com/index.htm)
Mobile 1 Racing Oil
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/ZDDP_Levels_Classic_Cars.aspx (http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/ZDDP_Levels_Classic_Cars.aspx)
Lucas Oil (Assembly & Break-in)
http://www.lucasoil.com/search/results_products.sd?keyword=zinc (http://www.lucasoil.com/search/results_products.sd?keyword=zinc)
Valvoline Racing Oil
http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1%20Racing%20Motor%20Oil.pdf (http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1%20Racing%20Motor%20Oil.pdf)
What are you using in your flat tappet engine?
..for assembly?
..for break-in?
..for everyday driving?
..how about your motorcycles or diesel?

I burned up a cam a while back, and have been frustrated with all the conflicting opinions on oil for flat tappet cams.

Some of you may know this already, but I'm always intersted in hearing more facts..
I found some very interesting Q&A and FAQ's on Zinc and Phospherous (ZDDP) levels..

in 2006, EPA made oil companies reduce ZDDP levels for cars.
In 2007, EPA began enforcing this, and demanded ZDDP levels drop for Diesel vehicles also.
Higher ZDDP burnout catalytic converters, and increases carbon emmissions in newer (roller) vehicles.
Oil companies can sell oil with higher ZDDP levels as "Racing" oils or "Break-in" oil, but must state "Not for street use" on the label.
Mobile 1 and Valvoline admit the levels in these oils will benefit flat tappet engines, (engines older than 1988)..
But they do not meet the original SF rating required for these engines.
ZDDPlus is one (of many) Zinc/Phosphurous additives, and sold at many locations..
GM used to sell a product called EOS, but stopped selling it in the US due to EPA regulations, (EOS can still be purchased in Canada).

ZDDPlus
http://zddplus.com/index.htm#FAQ-WhatDoOilGradesMean (http://zddplus.com/index.htm)
Mobile 1 Racing Oil
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/ZDDP_Levels_Classic_Cars.aspx (http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Car_Care/AskMobil/ZDDP_Levels_Classic_Cars.aspx)
Lucas Oil (Assembly & Break-in)
http://www.lucasoil.com/search/results_products.sd?keyword=zinc (http://www.lucasoil.com/search/results_products.sd?keyword=zinc)
Valvoline Racing Oil
http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1%20Racing%20Motor%20Oil.pdf (http://www.valvoline.com/products/VR-1%20Racing%20Motor%20Oil.pdf)
What are you using in your flat tappet engine?
..for assembly?
..for break-in?
..for everyday driving?
..how about your motorcycles or diesel?


i use that crane cam break in additive...it has zinc in it!!!!

I really wish someone with the credentials would say which oil to use. I am tired of hearing just change to a roller cam.

http://www.bradpennracing.com/

I run diesel oil in my motor. I hear that oil is high in minerals that used to be in standard oil.

Consider using Castrol 4 Stroke Motorcycle oil API is SG an is easily available in motorcycle departments

I just did a break-in on my motor and my cam is a Comp Cam XE268....with that said I used the Rotella 15-40 with EOS...NO LOBE FAILURE. After the break-in I changed the oil and it had no metal shavings just the Moly Assembly Lube. Also no ticking in the valve train.

From my experience I feel that getting the correct springs and setting the correct valve lash and using the moly assembly lube has allot to do with whether or not a flat tappet cam will fail. Yes oil with the correct ZDDP properties is another factor to add to the mix but using the EOS with the Rotella will give you the protection you will need. Here is something to think about. Take a look a the color of oil lets say castrol syntec...you can see right through it like it was almost clear ( like most oils ). Now take a look at the Rotella oil straight out of the jug without any EOS. It's a brown shade and if anyone as old as me 40ish can remember that all oils back in the day was that same brown color. Todays oils are definitely missing something and I do not want to take that chance when I have over $4000 in the engine I built. The question I would like to know is what oil do you use after the motor has 500 miles or so and everything is truly broken in.

Mobil One 15-50

I've been through, I don't know how many of these discussions. I finally went to the ZDDP website and read their stuff. You can't use EOS at each oil change, the Rotella is now lower in zddp and if you put their additive in, you can use whatever oil you want. I used EOS and Rotella on my break-in on my Comp xs282s. I had no problems and have used the ZDDP since. It looks like what Joe said, the ZDDP is brown and you can't see through it.

Just add a bottle of GM EOS to every oil cange and all will be good.:thumbsup:

You can't use EOS at each oil change...

Just add a bottle of GM EOS to every oil cange and all will be good.:thumbsup:

Okay which is it? This is why the information is confusing. I just did a cam swap (my first) and used EOS and Rotella for the break in and then changed the oil with fresh Rotella with a bottle of EOS. Is this okay to run for the next 2000-3000 miles or the end of the season whichever comes first?

Thanks

Okay which is it? This is why the information is confusing. I just did a cam swap (my first) and used EOS and Rotella for the break in and then changed the oil with fresh Rotella with a bottle of EOS. Is this okay to run for the next 2000-3000 miles or the end of the season whichever comes first?

Thanks

That is my point. I would like a chemical engineer for an oil company to explain what is going on. John Z has said that Rotella with 1000 ppm zinc is good enough, but I just want to know for sure.

If gas gets any more expensive...you won't have to worry about the oil.... because we won't be driving much.


wilma

Just use the EOS at every oil change. We run it in the PRO Mod all the time.

Bradpenn has more then enough ZDDP and as I say Castrol 4 Stroke Motorcycle API SG oil is almost as high in ZDDP as the old SF plus it has a very High Shear factor. Bradpenn is nice stuff and is really the old Kendall Green Oil but you have to order it. Valvoline Racing Oil (Not Street Legal) also has to be ordered but it is relatively expensive has to be changed out often as it has no detergents.

One bottle of the ZDDP plus has twice the zinc than a whole bottle of EOS at about a third the price. On CRG JM said you can't use EOS except at break in, it would plug the filter. The zinc will soon be gone in the Rotella as diesels have cats now too. I just didn't want to have to hunt all over for some kind of oil all the time. Now I use whatever I want.

My vote goes to zddplus too....been through all the research- Rotella T no longer has 1200-1400 that a flat tappet cam needs to live- so I use Valvoline VR-1 and a dose of zddplus to be safe!
Eos is not recommended for continued use after break-in so I wouldn't use it myself...

We used a lot of the Brad Penn till the zinc level was only 1200 PPM and last year we switched to the http://www.cen-pe-co.com/ 20/50 as it has 2300 PPM in zinc and is High in phosphate.

Even there 15/40 S3 oil has 1582 PPM of zinc and I believe their 10/30 is the same.

Mobil One 15-50
On the Mobile 1 site they suggest this oil for flat tappets. It has 1200 ppm of ZDDP.

I used shell rotella t 15w-40 and a bottle of comp cams break in lube. They lube has the stuff needed so cams don't go flat. The bottle says you can add it to oil after break in to provide extra protection as well. After I broke in my cam I changed over to royal purple 10w-30 and I put in another bottle just to be safe. The owner of my speed shop said once your cam is broken in and hardened, just use a quality motor oil and don't worry about it. Is it common to lose a cam after its broken in provided your springs are correct for that cam and your valves are adjusted correctly?

I used shell rotella t 15w-40 and a bottle of comp cams break in lube. They lube has the stuff needed so cams don't go flat. The bottle says you can add it to oil after break in to provide extra protection as well. After I broke in my cam I changed over to royal purple 10w-30 and I put in another bottle just to be safe. The owner of my speed shop said once your cam is broken in and hardened, just use a quality motor oil and don't worry about it. Is it common to lose a cam after its broken in provided your springs are correct for that cam and your valves are adjusted correctly?

My engine builder was very clear that I needed an oil with lots of zinc or an additive- all the time, not just during break-in or first 500 miles. He knows his stuff, and I'm not going to take any risks!
My understanding is that cams can fail at any time...you might want to do a search on here to check that out...

We should all be PO'd about this situation! Cats have been part of motoring for the past 33 years for god’s sake! And now they are removing the stuff that best protects our flat tappet cams!? For what reason? An allegation that the stuff jumps out of the oil and ends up fouling the cats! BS. Just ANOTHER example of a bunch of bureaucrats needing to justify their existence. It'll never end. (That's a Freds' Rule)

Lol_uk hit the nail on the head you will need ZDDP all of the time because the cam be wiped out with out it IMO

I just fired up my 454, it has a lunati voodoo 60202. I think the break in is succesful, I had some issues; fired it up, brought up rmp to about 2000 slowly ran it up and downfrom 2000 to 3000 until for about 5 minutes until the bottom rad hose blew off. Shut it down and fixed things up, fired it back up and ran it again and noticed a fairly severe ticking from ds. valve cover. Shut it down again, sick to my stomach pulled valve cover, rocker was hitting baffle!! Fixed it up, fired it again this morning and ran it up again for about fifteen minutes and all seems good.

I used Joe Gibbs performance break in oil. It is specially formulated for flat tappet break in.

www.joegibbsracingoil.com

After all this , can I breath easy, in other words ; if the cam fails, would you know right now, or will it grind away slowly getting worse over time.

Also, should a person drop the oil now, or do all my tuning, and fooling around, and drop it before the first drive ?

Les.

Fred - We should be PO'd that they didn't tell us about it, before buring up so many engines.
(how many times have we heard about the digital TV changes in 2009????)
I have a feeling that these increased warranty claims, are putting many engines builders out of business or bankrupt.

EPA is restricting the ZDDP levels for several reasons..

high levels of ZDDP is no longer necessary for 85% of cars and trucks on the road today
high ZDDP levels increase polutants (exhaust and disposal)
ZDDP is an additive, oil companies save money
high ZDDP oils sold as specialty oil, (3x the price)
shorten the life of catalytic converters, (sulphur smell-rotten eggs)
it encourages those of us who have flat tappet cams, to upgrade to a more efficient & cleaner engines
..and I'm sure there are more reasonsLes - I recently felt the same panic/nausea. If the outer most layer has worn off, the rest of your cam is cast, and will shread fast. The bottom of your lifters will go soon after that. The problem is the shavings get forced into your main bearing, rod bearing, rings, etc..
If you suspect a problem, (or just want to ease your fears) here are a few options.

I suggest you drain the oil and cut open the filter (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D900510&N=700+115&autoview=sku), looking for metal in the paper.
Order some ZDDPlus (http://www.zddplus.com/) asap, add it to your favorite detergent oil, racing oil has lower detergent levels, and can break down between 1000-1500 miles.
Order a magnet, (either on the drain plug (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2DG15&N=700+%2D98924+115&autoview=sku)or wrap around the filter (http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=filter+magnet&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=700+115)).
B&G MOA (http://www.bgprod.com/products/engineoil.html) is another good product for coating cylinder walls that don't get started regularly.
If you suspect damage, pull your rocker covers, and measure the rise of each rocker. (use remote starter switch (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUN%2DCP7853&N=700+115&autoview=sku) or have someone turn it over). All exhaust valves should have the same lift, and all the intake valves should have the same lift.Any variations and you have premature wear.
If you find a lot of visable metal shavings, that is a sign of premature wear, and chances are the bearing are gone too.

I added hyperlinks to give examples, you may find these items local or even cheaper somewhere else.

Good Luck! :thumbsup:

Thank's for the tips Ghostbuster.
I am going to drain the oil and check the filter tommorow.

Les.

I have been using Mobil 1 V-TWIN 20w-50 in my '67 327 for a couple of years. No problems. Here is a good oil forum:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

Just lost a lobe and lifter on a brand new setup from comp cams. Used a bottle of comp cams break in and Rotella.

Now going with a roller setup. I guess the old saying is true, you can pay me now or you can pay me later!

A $500.00 lesson well learned I guess, better now while it's on the run stand than later when it's in the car.

You guys made a believer out of this new oil versus flat tappet lingo.

Seems like I have seen it mentioned before, but where do you get oil analyzed?

Gary, if you know an Amsoil dealer, they have oil kits that you buy, put in sample and mail it off to the indenpendent lab. Results come back to you in email or snailmail and they keep records of your car and each year can tell you what the engine is doing, if there is any antifreeze leaking into the system, if the air filter is bad, if certain metals are 'off chart' and a cause for concern. Its like an xray of the engine and its not too pricey. Around $30 I think, good insurance for a $5000 engine. :)

Just lost a lobe and lifter on a brand new setup from comp cams. Used a bottle of comp cams break in and Rotella.

Now going with a roller setup. I guess the old saying is true, you can pay me now or you can pay me later!

A $500.00 lesson well learned I guess, better now while it's on the run stand than later when it's in the car.

You guys made a believer out of this new oil versus flat tappet lingo.

Good ol' comp cams again!... keep hearing bad news about them (and of course, none of it may be true!)...So glad I have an Isky cam!

Just lost a lobe and lifter on a brand new setup from comp cams. Used a bottle of comp cams break in and Rotella.

Now going with a roller setup. I guess the old saying is true, you can pay me now or you can pay me later!

A $500.00 lesson well learned I guess, better now while it's on the run stand than later when it's in the car.

You guys made a believer out of this new oil versus flat tappet lingo.

Curious.....Did you replace the springs recommended by the cam specs...Did you use moly on the cam lobes during assembly...why go with the comp cams break-in vrs the EOS ??? The reason why I am asking is because I went through an engine break-in with no issues and I am running a com cams XE268 with roller rockers and the correct push rods and using rotella with everying I have listed above I was ecstatic when I finished the break-in and at idle there was not even one little tic coming from the top end. I think that Com Cams is getting a bad rap and I have read posts about other cam manufacturers that fail during break-in so lets bash them all.
I apologize for coming across bitter on this but it pains me to see a post about oil end up trashing Comp Cams. Prelube/srings/seat pressure and oil all have a major impact on whether a cam will fail or not. I guess I am one of the lucky ones that had a positive outcome but I did my homework before I installed anything.

Everything, I mean everything was up to par when we fired it up. I'm not here to bash Comp Cams either, just bought a roller from them today. I'm done with this flat tappett and oil additive crap! How many times can I afford to lose a lobe or a tappett and then have to tear everything out of my car.

Re: trashing comp cams?...I'm only responding to the many posts on this and The Chevelles forums regarding cam failures- even when using the correst break-in procedures....Eos/ good oil etc...

This is a big issue for me as I shipped my crate engine from the US to the UK- so it ain't easy for me to go back to my engine builder if I have a problem...high horesepower engine + flat tappet cam = potential disaster if not done right!

I spent months looking into low zinc oils/ cam break-in etc. before I bought my engine....I'm only reflecting the info I found online- and a speed shop over here who went through 3 cams breaking in a F*rd V8 for a customer.
Guess who the manufacturer of those was?

I just switched to RotellaT 15W40 for my new 383 CI BLUEPRINT engine from synthetic but I am starting to notice a knocking sound. Any clues if the oil change might have caused the knocking.

Mark

I just switched to RotellaT 15W40 for my new 383 CI BLUEPRINT engine from synthetic but I am starting to notice a knocking sound. Any clues if the oil change might have caused the knocking.

Mark

New Rotella does not have the zinc levels of the old stuff so I wouldn't use it without an additive IMO...but that may not be related to the knocking sound- better get that checked out!

all you need is oil made for cars with over 75,000 miles

it should have everything you need in it to run with flat tappet cams.

actually, not that i think about it, i ran my engine with pennzoil 5w30 and the exhaust lobe for #8 cylinder was worn down a bit

Is ZDDP mail order only? I havnt seen it at any of the local parts stores.

New Rotella does not have the zinc levels of the old stuff so I wouldn't use it without an additive IMO...

The "new" Rotella has a CJ-4 API rating, which requires at least 1200ppm of ZDDP, which is adequate for protection of any OEM flat-tappet cam and lifters; if you have an aftermarket cam with a radical lobe profile and Gonzo valve springs, that's a different ball game and you need additional protection.

:beers:

The "new" Rotella has a CJ-4 API rating, which requires at least 1200ppm of ZDDP, which is adequate for protection of any OEM flat-tappet cam and lifters; if you have an aftermarket cam with a radical lobe profile and Gonzo valve springs, that's a different ball game and you need additional protection.

:beers:


http://www.shell.com/home/content/ca-en/shell_for_businesses/lubricants/rotella/cj4/cj4_faq.html#20

...from the Shell website. It doesn't quote the zinc level, but from all I have read (and I may be wrong!) I understand the level of zinc may be lower than 1200ppm...and it may be reduced further next year as diesel engines are cleaned up...

Personally I won't take any risks so will continue to use zddplus (bought mine on ebay- shipped to the UK)...

Here's another alternative that I just saw the other day, pricey at $7.99/qt but cheaper that a toasted cam!

http://www.royalpurple.com/breakin-oil-rh.html

...from the Shell website. It doesn't quote the zinc level, but from all I have read (and I may be wrong!) I understand the level of zinc may be lower than 1200ppm...and it may be reduced further next year as diesel engines are cleaned up...

Read it more closely:

<<The new API CJ-4 Shell Rotella T multigrade engine oil also meets the requirements of earlier API performance categories such as API CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, as well as others, and can be used in engines specifying any of these performance categories.>>

Note that it meets the earlier CI-4 category as well as the newer CJ-4; that's all you need to know if you have an OEM cam and lifters. You don't need an additive unless you're using the new "SM"-rated conventional gasoline engine oil (where "SM" is the first rating category listed in the API "target" symbol).

:beers:

On CRG JM said you can't use EOS except at break in, it would plug the filter. The zinc will soon be gone in the Rotella as diesels have cats now too. I just didn't want to have to hunt all over for some kind of oil all the time. Now I use whatever I want.

HUH? I have used EOS with every oil change on my own 69Z28 as well as my 77 GMC 454 shortbox and also my daily driver for going on 30 years and it has never plugged the filter yet.

I also use Brad Penn Break In Oil and EOS on engines I build these days with absolutely no failure to date.

Read it more closely:

<<The new API CJ-4 Shell Rotella T multigrade engine oil also meets the requirements of earlier API performance categories such as API CI-4 PLUS, CI-4, CH-4, CG-4, as well as others, and can be used in engines specifying any of these performance categories.>>

Note that it meets the earlier CI-4 category as well as the newer CJ-4; that's all you need to know if you have an OEM cam and lifters. You don't need an additive unless you're using the new "SM"-rated conventional gasoline engine oil (where "SM" is the first rating category listed in the API "target" symbol).

:beers:

Ok- point taken...but I guess there are a lot of guys here who don't have the stock cam and lifters- and that's where the real issue is for me. 1200ppm zddp is ok but I'm happier with 1400 or more. For guys building new hi-po engines with flat tappet cams this is a major (and potentially expensive) issue.
Just don't take risks is all I'd say!

ok, here my opinion for what it is worth. most severe cam wear on breakin is due to spring pressure. the heavy springs cause unneeded stress to a fresh cam. so i would either break it in with stock spings, or use lighter components to start with. i have install many a solid lifter cam and never wiped one out. the gm off road cam with the gm springs recomended work good to 8000 rpm plus with no valve float. are these huge spring necessary? i don't know, all i am saying is maybe we are causing are own problems. all i ever do is fire it up, let it get to operating temp then shut it down. the next time it is started its balls to the wall.

ok, here my opinion for what it is worth. most severe cam wear on breakin is due to spring pressure. the heavy springs cause unneeded stress to a fresh cam. so i would either break it in with stock spings, or use lighter components to start with. i have install many a solid lifter cam and never wiped one out. the gm off road cam with the gm springs recomended work good to 8000 rpm plus with no valve float. are these huge spring necessary? i don't know, all i am saying is maybe we are causing are own problems. all i ever do is fire it up, let it get to operating temp then shut it down. the next time it is started its balls to the wall.

Spring pressures depend on what cam you're running. More aggressive cams need more spring pressure. I don't do spring swaps for a new cam it's too much hassle so, I bought a set of low ratio rockers (1.3's). No problems yet. Building a new engine right now so, hopefully everything works out. The newer oils are the cause of many of the issues and the rest of the problems come from improper break in. I will use one of the many break in opils on the market (Joe Gibbs, Royal Purple, etc...). Valvoline just came out with a new oil for flat tappet cams as well.

......... Valvoline just came out with a new oil for flat tappet cams as well.

Is it the Roush motor oil? If not what is the name? I thought that synthetic oil was not good for flat tappets because the lifter does not spin with the syn oil.
http://www.roushoil.com/

I hope I'm right on this ... So any out there, plus feel free to correct me.

I had heard that Syn Oils were fine for flat tappet engines as long as you added ZDDPplus or something close to it.

Currently I'm running Mobil 1 5-30 with the ZDDPplus additive in a new (about 100 miles on it) 427 Solid lifter/Cam motor. I'm pretty comfortable with this as it offers me the best of both worlds. But If I'm living in a dream would here, I wish some one would wake me up as I have some $$$ wrapped up this motor and not looking for any problems.

I hope I'm right on this ... So any out there, plus feel free to correct me.

I had heard that Syn Oils were fine for flat tappet engines as long as you added ZDDPplus or something close to it.

Currently I'm running Mobil 1 5-30 with the ZDDPplus additive in a new (about 100 miles on it) 427 Solid lifter/Cam motor. I'm pretty comfortable with this as it offers me the best of both worlds. But If I'm living in a dream would here, I wish some one would wake me up as I have some $$$ wrapped up this motor and not looking for any problems.

Well...all the sources I've read suggest not using a synthetic oil with a flat tappet cam until at least 1000 miles (crane cams suggest 5000 miles):

http://www.cranecams.com/pdf/548e.pdf

but I don't know how zddplus will react with a synthetic oil rather than mineral oil...synthetics are more 'slippery' than good ol dino oil, so I will stay with my Valvoline VR1.

Lots of guys here run Royal Purple and other good synthetic brands...but maybe not on such a fresh engine! If it was me I'd go back to dino oil for at least 1000 miles...JMHO

Is it the Roush motor oil? If not what is the name? I thought that synthetic oil was not good for flat tappets because the lifter does not spin with the syn oil.
http://www.roushoil.com/


http://www.valvoline.com/pages/products/product_detail.asp?product=94 I think this is it. Though the Roush oil looks like what I remember in the article, but I didn't think it was synthetic.

The VR-1 oil is not new. Just the Valvoline racing oil.I think it is missing some ingredienst for stret engines. I am not the expert though. I just need a good zinc oil to use.

cams have always failed, throwing different oil at it will only delay the enevitable. break it in with lighter springs, get titanium retainers lighten the valve train. this is how it is done in the real world!

i have a 454 bbc with a flat tappet cam, motor is already broken in and i want to change the oil. I was thinking about royal purple synthetic 5w-30 with zddp plus additive. Will that work?

i have a 454 bbc with a flat tappet cam, motor is already broken in and i want to change the oil. I was thinking about royal purple synthetic 5w-30 with zddp plus additive. Will that work?
Hi Viktor..
That is a great combination..
Royal Purple has different oils (racing, break-in, diesel, car), each with different phosperous and zinc levels, but the ZDDPlus will make up the difference. http://www.royalpurple.com/faqs-racing.html