Still working out the bugs as expected with the blown unit.In the market for better fans that flow more cfm than my current flexalite pancakes(2400 cfm).Coolant temp never exceeds 210*..but will fail in parade traffic for sure.Total timing is still an issue with the stop bushing selection from msd.The engine like 20 initial..but the black bushing puts me at 38 total.I have not loaded the engine..only have 10 miles of light throttle on her.my real issue is the off idle lean out that will open up the pop off valve.I currently have the .031 straight shooters in the 850 dp.s with 30 cc pumps.Before I go with cams and 50 cc reo,s..I am thinking upping the shooter by .005" to a .036".Sound reasonable?Once I transition into the main ckt..all hell breaks loose.

Still working out the bugs as expected with the blown unit.In the market for better fans that flow more cfm than my current flexalite pancakes(2400 cfm).Coolant temp never exceeds 210*..but will fail in parade traffic for sure.Total timing is still an issue with the stop bushing selection from msd.The engine like 20 initial..but the black bushing puts me at 38 total.I have not loaded the engine..only have 10 miles of light throttle on her.my real issue is the off idle lean out that will open up the pop off valve.I currently have the .031 straight shooters in the 850 dp.s with 30 cc pumps.Before I go with cams and 50 cc reo,s..I am thinking upping the shooter by .005" to a .036".Sound reasonable?Once I transition into the main ckt..all hell breaks loose.


George,
I wish I knew anything about blowers so I could at least attempt to help with your tuning issues!! Maybe Mike(prostreet69camaro) will see your thread and respond with the fix.

Thanks David.It is definetly a lean out off idle.I am creeping up on it slowly and not causing any engine damage with light loads.My biggest issue is the lack of speed shops in my area.Every gosh darn thing I want to try requires mail order and down time + shipping.Go figure eh..residing in the Motor city and can not even rustle up a set of Holley discharge nozzles with out a phone and a credit card.:sad:

Thanks David.It is definetly a lean out off idle.I am creeping up on it slowly and not causing any engine damage with light loads.My biggest issue is the lack of speed shops in my area.Every gosh darn thing I want to try requires mail order and down time + shipping.Go figure eh..residing in the Motor city and can not even rustle up a set of Holley discharge nozzles with out a phone and a credit card.:sad:

I hear ya' George and understand the issue about the lack of speed shops in the area. I don't even have a decent machine shop within 100 miles that I would trust to do any work for me. That's why my engine went to Dayton,Ohio as I have a friend there and after a visit to the machine shop that built his naturally aspirated 555 with almost 1,000 hp at the flexplate,I knew that's where my engine would go for all of the upgrades that I had planned for it. I am very pleased with the results as you already know.

You have two good shops in your area (maybe more) Dynamic Speed & Marine in Chesterfield and Performance Warehouse in Garden City. Both are just slightly outside of Detroit and have been around for a long time.
You can't go wrong with either of them. If more people would support their local guys instead of buying mail order then there would more local guys to choose from. It is very difficult to run a small shop in todays performance world.

You have two good shops in your area (maybe more) Dynamic Speed & Marine in Chesterfield and Performance Warehouse in Garden City. Both are just slightly outside of Detroit and have been around for a long time.
You can't go wrong with either of them. If more people would support their local guys instead of buying mail order then there would more local guys to choose from. It is very difficult to run a small shop in todays performance world.

thanks mike.I will check them out for parts.I also like to support the little shops locally.

George,

What do you mean by blowing off the pop off valve. Are you talking about the valve on the back of blower when it has to much pressure it pops off ? All you are doing is reving the motor and the pop off valves goes off. I had a fuel regulator problem when I first got my motor going. I called Al at www.bigalstoybox.com and he was very helpful. I thought I had a gasket leaking on the back of my blower because it looked like gear oil on the intake and he told me it was fuel. He told me to fix my fuel problem that I did not have a leak. He is a nice guy and works on these blower motors all day long. Give him a call and if he suggest something then buy it from him. That is what I did.

Mike

George,

What do you mean by blowing off the pop off valve. Are you talking about the valve on the back of blower when it has to much pressure it pops off ? All you are doing is reving the motor and the pop off valves goes off. I had a fuel regulator problem when I first got my motor going. I called Al at www.bigalstoybox.com (http://www.bigalstoybox.com) and he was very helpful. I thought I had a gasket leaking on the back of my blower because it looked like gear oil on the intake and he told me it was fuel. He told me to fix my fuel problem that I did not have a leak. He is a nice guy and works on these blower motors all day long. Give him a call and if he suggest something then buy it from him. That is what I did.

Mike

Mike
Thanks..I saved the link to bigals in my favourites.No fluid leaks anywhere now that i got rid of the felpro 1884r 1 piece oil pan gasket.It split under the chain cover so i went back to the cork and rubber setup and dry as a bone.The blower sneezes thru the pop off valve in the back of the blower manifold in gear only..not free revving the engine in park.Idle the engine up to 5mph and then tap the throttle brings on the sneeze.I just now finished upping my primary pump squirters from .031" to .037".Will test this mod Saturday am when the car gets driven to the paint booth for deck lid stripes.

Mike
Thanks..I saved the link to bigals in my favourites.No fluid leaks anywhere now that i got rid of the felpro 1884r 1 piece oil pan gasket.It split under the chain cover so i went back to the cork and rubber setup and dry as a bone.The blower sneezes thru the pop off valve in the back of the blower manifold in gear only..not free revving the engine in park.Idle the engine up to 5mph and then tap the throttle brings on the sneeze.I just now finished upping my primary pump squirters from .031" to .037".Will test this mod Saturday am when the car gets driven to the paint booth for deck lid stripes.

George,

I feel for ya. It took me about a year to dial in my motor. It would back fire thru the carbs under load also. I had 2 850's that flowed 930 apiece. I had to much carb. I went with 2 750's. I had a problem with it running rich and fowling plugs. I bought the holley 750 blower carbs. Mine always ran rich. I actually had to lower the jets in the new carbs to finally not have black plugs and every once in a while it will back fire thru the carbs. Plus once I started leaning the motor out it started running hotter. That will be your next issue to solve. Good luck.

good news guys.The 68 was in paint prison for only 4 hrs and the rear deck lid striping is awesome.The 461 responded nicely to the pump discharge nozzle upgrade.No pop off bang going from the .031" to .037" and no black woof out the rear on accel.She ran 190f to and fro from work at cruise speed (45 mph).creaps up to 205f real fast under low boost.Still looking for that healthy balance of a/f,timing and fan cfm.Comes as no suprise..the beast is still in its it infancy.The torque curve is none existant.It starts high at 2500 rpm and flat lines.I can not say enough about a big roots atop a BBC.:hurray:

George,

Lets see some pictures.

George,

Plus once I started leaning the motor out it started running hotter. That will be your next issue to solve. Good luck.

Mike..what rad/fan combo are using to cool the 502?I have a 26" dual row aluminum Griffan and I purchased a derale twin fan 4000 cfm kit but I can not slide it in due to clearance issues.Is your rad in the stock position like mine is?I only have about 2.5" at the bottom and 3.5 at the top between the pulleys and rad core surface.thanks.

George,

I had to do some modifications to get my radiator and fans in. I have a big block BeCool radiator. I removed the mounting tabs from the sides of the radiator. The brackets have a offset to give it a little clearance between the radiator and radiator support. Like 1" clearance. I mounted aluminum flat bar to the inside face of the radiator. This moved the radiator closer to the radiator support but the radiator hit the lip around the opening on the radiator support. So I added a 1/8" spacer between the brackets and the radiator support.

I have the 11" dual Spal fans. I got them from DSE. Part # 13102. Go to there website and also check out Spals website.

My blower belt was still a litttle close for me so I took the 4 bolts that hold the idler pulley and shortened them about 1/4". The belt still lined up with the other pulleys but this helped keep the belt away from the fan motor. Even if the belt rode the outer edge of the pulley I have about a 1/4" between the pulley and fan motor.

I can give you the measurements from the back of the radiator bracket and fans if you need the measurement. This will be the total width of the radiator and fans.

George,



I can give you the measurements from the back of the radiator bracket and fans if you need the measurement. This will be the total width of the radiator and fans.


Measurements would be very helpful Mike.I will check out the #13102 at work this am.I am closest at the bottom blower pulley.I have about 2.5".Thanks in advance.

Is that 2-1/2" between the bottom pulley and radiator???

I wont be home till tomorrow. Then I will get the measurements for you.

Is that 2-1/2" between the bottom pulley and radiator???

I wont be home till tomorrow. Then I will get the measurements for you.

Correct Mike..2.5" ^.I have been all over the web for 3 hrs hunting a fan kit down.Talk about an exercise in futility.I may have come close though with this Spal part#30102130.My core opening is 26x18.Looks like we both have the weiand 8-71 and my idler pulley leading edge is 1/4" more forward than the upper/lower drive pulleys.I have the bearing retainer snap ring to the backside.To reverse it has the thru bolt spacer trying to contact the idler inside diameter.I understand why you you shortened the idler bracket spacers to gain the addditional clearance..but this 30102130 has 12.68" between peak motor depth and my blower belt only stretches out to 8" at that point.what bothers me is the lack of industry standards re; elec fan cfm.I believe in the 10 amp draw for every 1000 cfm rule.I see puller fans that advertise 3000 cfm but only pull 10 amps.I did do an extensive search for the spal part# you supplied for me..but the best I came up with was a derale fan/trans cooler combo.:confused:.My current setup utilizes the flexalite dual 12" pancakes rated at 2400 cfm.They are fully shrouded for my width but fall short of heighth by 4".So we are on the same page..my 461 creeps up to and then holds about 215*f in stop and go traffic.A tad bit hot for my likeing.Can you give me some temp #,s with your blown 502 and your coolant combo in heavy stop and go traffic and extended idle times?

George,

I still have cooling problems with my car. Its gets to 210/215 in standing traffic. I am running a 50/50 mixture of antifreeze with distilled water. I also use the Moroso restrictor plate. I use the middle one. Never really tried a thermostat being I had the same setup in my 406.

Checkout prchotrod.com. They have a nice radiator / shroud / dual fan setup. I saw there products at Goodguys Columbus. They also make a aluminum polished radiator support with all the stuff on it. Radiator, shroud, fans, relays, overflow, but it is 2500.00. I still like there radiator fan setup with the aluminum shroud and it covers the whole radiator. Problem is will it fit between the radiator support and the pulley/belts. I will email you a scan of there catalog. Check your email.

I got your e-mail Mike.Thank you.:beers:

My radiator measures 28-1/4" wide and the side tanks are 3".

From the brackets that mount to the radiator to the outside of the fan motors is 7".

From back of fan motor to blower pulley maybe a 1/16 to 1/8 clearance but the fans are above the pulley.

From the radiator to the bottom pulley is 4".

I could gain another 1/4" if I cut the 4 standoffs for the idler pulley. The reason I didnt is beacuse it fit the first time. My belt is riding on the very outer part of the lower pulley.

I am curious to see how wide the PRC fans and shroud are. If you talk to them let me know how wide they are.

I am going to email you some pictures I took of my fans and radiator.

George,

Have you heard about dual and triple passing a radiator. This is what the nascar guys do. My buddy did it to his radiator and he is running a blower motor also. He doesnt drive it on the street very much so really dont know how it cools. If my radiator goes out I plan on doing that.

Mike,

How does that work?

Hey Jerry,

I really dont know? I did not talk to my friend to much about it and he had a chassis shop do his. I guess I could go on the internet and read up about it. I am going to ask the question over in the heating and cooling section.

Mike,

How does that work?

From what I understand the coolant flows through the radiator twice on the dual pass. The coolant enters through the top half of the radiator and flows across then makes a U-turn and flows back through the lower half of the radiator again. The radiator is basically seperated in the center. Kind of like 2 seperate radiators. On the dual pass radiators I've seen the inlet and outlet are on the same side of the radiator. I assume the triple pass just takes one more U-turn back through the radiator.

Here's a picture of one:

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6799/d21a1js2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/6799/d21a1js2.5beb6c8266.jpg (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=440&i=d21a1js2.jpg)
.

George,

Have you heard about dual and triple passing a radiator. This is what the nascar guys do. My buddy did it to his radiator and he is running a blower motor also. He doesnt drive it on the street very much so really dont know how it cools. If my radiator goes out I plan on doing that.

Mike,

I ordered up the Spal dual 12" 30102130 kit for $350 from A1 electric.The blueprint they provided will fit my 26"x18" core surface. The 12" motor to motor spacing should allow my 3" gilmer to clear and the low profile shroud atop should clear the idler pulley and allow hot adjustment without shroud removal.Should see it this Wednesday hopefully.my Griffan crossflow cools the blown bbc down to 190* at speed..just struggles in traffic and creeps to 215* once the blower case is heat soaked.
I am paying less attention these days to advertised cfm #,s and basing my decision on current draw.There appears to be no industry standard..so i am going with the 10 amp/1000 cfm guideline.
This unit yanks anywhere from 39 to 48 amps depending I assume,the restriction placed before it.I guess,who cares if your fan flows 3k cfm at 9 amps in open air.I need 3k cfm at 40 amps 1/2" fully shrouded behind a 3 inch core.Just my thinking..hope it is correct.
If the Griffan struggles to keep up..then like you,this winter I will look into a dual pass.I am familiar with them also.Inlet/outlet on the same side and the tell tale weld half way down the tank indicating the internal divider in the tank.A triple would have the inlet and outlet in opposite tanks with a telltale weld on both tanks.That would be sweet and ensure all the coolant passed thru all the tubes with the same velocity and much needed turbulence to contact all of the tube surface.Sounds like these Nascar guys know their stuff.:yes:.
Thank you for the great pics you sent me.I will save them for future referance and update you guys on the Spal setup and performance with a blown big block and limited clearance in a 1st Gen.

Thanks Mike, Mark, George....

This is very good information. Both times I've taken out my '68 I had problems with the cooling. I was contemplating buying a BeCool unit, but maybe this is the way to go?

Jerry

George,

When you get them mounted take some pictures for me. I want to see how they fit your radiator. Also give me the overall depth of the radiator and fans when they are monted. I would like to see if they will fit mine. Also let me know how the fans motors line up to the blower pulleys. Any kind of interference?

I didn't see timing mentioned anywhere (excuse me if I missed it). Initial timing plays a HUGE role in how hot your blower engine will run at idle and low speeds. If you are not running enough initial it is going to run hot.

As far as fan current draw there are a few factors that will make a difference. Fan blade design (size and shape), weight of the fan, and of course resistance. The S blades are supposed to be more efficient.

I have an undersized radiator (smaller than I would like) and space limitations prevent me from running a MarkVI fan. I went with a Flea-a-lite Extreme that is advertized to pull 3300 CFM at 18 amps (also advertised as the most powerful electric fan on the market). I can tell you it pulls more than 18 amps but, I can't verify the CFM's. The shroud fit my radiator core perfectly so that should make it more efficient. The fan uses the S style blades. I only have garage run time on this set-up so I can't vouch for it's effectiveness yet.

George,

When you get them mounted take some pictures for me. I want to see how they fit your radiator. Also give me the overall depth of the radiator and fans when they are monted. I would like to see if they will fit mine. Also let me know how the fans motors line up to the blower pulleys. Any kind of interference?

I will send you some pics of the installation later this week Mke.:thumbsup:

I didn't see timing mentioned anywhere (excuse me if I missed it). Initial timing plays a HUGE role in how hot your blower engine will run at idle and low speeds. If you are not running enough initial it is going to run hot.

As far as fan current draw there are a few factors that will make a difference. Fan blade design (size and shape), weight of the fan, and of course resistance. The S blades are supposed to be more efficient.

I have an undersized radiator (smaller than I would like) and space limitations prevent me from running a MarkVI fan. I went with a Flea-a-lite Extreme that is advertized to pull 3300 CFM at 18 amps (also advertised as the most powerful electric fan on the market). I can tell you it pulls more than 18 amps but, I can't verify the CFM's. The shroud fit my radiator core perfectly so that should make it more efficient. The fan uses the S style blades. I only have garage run time on this set-up so I can't vouch for it's effectiveness yet.

Hello Royce.Still working out what to do with the 18* stop bushing in the msd.Currently I have 18* initial and 18* mechanical=36* total allin at 2500 rpm.It sounds like the 461 would still like some initial.I am shooting for 20* initial and limit total to 32-34*.
I think youwill like the Black majic fan.I know of a few being used with success.It does not cover my 26" core size and interferes with the blower belt though.:sad:

Hello Royce.Still working out what to do with the 18* stop bushing in the msd.Currently I have 18* initial and 18* mechanical=36* total allin at 2500 rpm.It sounds like the 461 would still like some initial.I am shooting for 20* initial and limit total to 32-34*.
I think youwill like the Black majic fan.I know of a few being used with success.It does not cover my 26" core size and interferes with the blower belt though.:sad:

George,
Looks like you have the timing figured out. With 20* inital and 32-34* total you should be on the money. Anything less than 18* initial and the temp is going to climb at low speeds. With a 26" core dual fans are the way to go. Space can be a problem but, with the proper fan spacing you should be ok. In my 70 Camaro I had a ton of space in from of the blower drive. My Buick is VERY tight probably like your big block in a Camaro. My lower pulley is almost dead center of my radiator.

you should be running a little rich it will help cool the engine a little and make sure the engine gets the fuel it needs with supercharging. Lean is very hard on the engine.

Also you wont see any boost just revving it up the thing needs some load on it to get boost.

you should be running a little rich it will help cool the engine a little and make sure the engine gets the fuel it needs with supercharging. Lean is very hard on the engine.

Also you wont see any boost just revving it up the thing needs some load on it to get boost.

I agree Radcannon^.
This combo right now..without a backhalf and 33x18,s ,experiances no load.lol.The engine is a beast while only tickling the boost gauge on the primary side only and blowing off the tires.Cracking the secondarys right now is out of the question.trust me.40% throttle angle is all you can throw at it while observing the boost and the side streets.:D

Hey guy's,
George sent me a couple of new pics that he wants to share with everyone.............this is one awesome blown '68 :yes::thumbsup:
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff229/1969ProStreetCamaro/camaropics002.jpg

Here's another one:D............
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff229/1969ProStreetCamaro/camaropics001.jpg

Hey George :thumbsup::thumbsup:

It is looking good George. How is the radiator and fans doing. Did you get a dc ampprobe yet??

Hey guy's,
George sent me a couple of new pics that he wants to share with everyone.............this is one awesome blown '68 :yes::thumbsup:
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff229/1969ProStreetCamaro/camaropics002.jpg

Here's another one:D............
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff229/1969ProStreetCamaro/camaropics001.jpg

Hey George :thumbsup::thumbsup:Now that is one mean 68 Camaro. Gotta love it :thumbsup:

Hey guy's,
George sent me a couple of new pics that he wants to share with everyone.............this is one awesome blown '68 :yes::thumbsup:
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff229/1969ProStreetCamaro/camaropics002.jpg

Here's another one:D............
http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff229/1969ProStreetCamaro/camaropics001.jpg

Hey George :thumbsup::thumbsup:
Thanks David for posting my Pics to share with fellow TC members.

It is looking good George. How is the radiator and fans doing. Did you get a dc ampprobe yet??
Mike..the dual spals are glorious overkill.I will have running amp draw for you soon.
Now that is one mean 68 Camaro. Gotta love it :thumbsup:
Skip-Thank you for endoresment.Coming from a fellow big block owner in a 1st gen camaro is a major compliment.

George,
As usual it was a pleasure to post the pictures for you :beers:.
I will post as many for you as you like:beers:

It is looking good George. How is the radiator and fans doing. Did you get a dc ampprobe yet??

I sent you a PM mike with the current draw as promised.
I would like to share the #,s with others here also that may have coolant temp issues with big blocks in 1st Gens.
I have a 26x18 core surface 2 row griffan aluminum rad.I installed a spal #30102130 dual fan kit to address low speed overheating issues with the blown unit.
Thsi fan kit is glorious overkill on my application.Will cool the 461 to 180*f in Woodward dream cruise gridlock.
Of course..nothing is free.It will require a wiring upgrade that can support it,s 43 amp current draw while operating.
My 140 amp alt laughs at this and maintains over 13 volts at 900 rpm in gear.
I f you have the core surface area and issues with cooling,I can vouch for the effectiveness with this fan setup.its low profile and spread motor allow the use of a 3" blower belt in a 1st gen.
Hope this info helps you guys.

Thanks George, I got your PM.

Sweet car hope mine is looking as good as yours when i get the engine back in in October. The dream cruise was pretty killer hope you had a great time sure everyone did.

Hey guys,
I am building a 540ci blower motor in my 67.
I did a lot of research on cooling when i decided to run a blower motor.

Two things to consider.
First a custom shroud for your fans so they pull air threw the whole radiator.

The other a lot of people over look is a more efficient water pump.
I am going to run a high flow Stewart water pump. It has a special impeller and will flow a lot more coolant than a stock pump.

Also you may look into running Polyglycol instead of water and antifreeze. It is supposed to eliminate hot spots from trapped air in the system.

Brian