hello fellow TC'ers.
Ive seemed to of stumbled upon another lrg jrnl 327, im still a lil wet behind the ears in the motor aspect of the car world.But it hasnt slowed me from having my fun,Im wondering what kind of cam you guys could recommend me.As is, i only plan to bore and install Forged Wiseco pistons (.060,and yes the blocks good to go) aside from little nick knacks and a cam thats it.Now for the ringer,im shooting for around 11.5.1 static compression ratio and im wondering if this will be enough to use E85 to its potential. (not worried bout summer/winter blends as this is just a toy) so if anyones got any ideas id love to hear from you guys.motor specs below

.060 327
Wiseco .060 pistons(http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=WIS%2DPT041H6&autoview=sku)
stock refurbished rods,or if budget allows some Scats
Stock production Vortec heads with upgrade to spring pockets (.525 lift)
Edelbrock Performer RPM Air Gap
aswell as numerous carbs.But still not sure whats gonna be exactly user friendly with the E85?
an M20 and a empty narrowed S60 in a 1969 AMC Javelin.
All parts are in house ready to be put together aside from bearings pistons carb and rods if the budget allows.ty for reading lol

Are the domed pistons going to work with the Vortec combustion chamber?

Intresting...So anyone have any hard info on high comp and vortecs?Would i be better off with the 492's i have? But then that would mean a whole new rebuild to them as well...umm wow, talk about a rock and a hard place haha.

It's not that they're high compression, it's the point on the heart shape that comes into the combustion chamber that may interfere with the piston dome. You already have these pistons?

Scroll down for chamber pics
http://www.chevymania.com/tech/vortec.htm

Mark

Mark's a Buddy so please listen up.

Oh, and btw, we can make 327 run like a "scalded-dog!!".. Had one.............

pdq67

Ooop's my bad, double post!

The quench pad right around the plug hole on a vortec can get slammed by a domed piston. The triangle area Mark spoke of.

And the Vortec is like 68cc or 65 or somewhere in there.

Congrats! I am running 492's on mine as well. The beauty of a 327, is that not everyone has one!

Im no wizard,but i understand about the Vortec chamber.As ive already got the heads,as far as the CC's when the heads were gone threw they measured out to be 63 cc's +/- small %.
Pistons are not ordered,As im looking to run a good bit of compression to maximize the usage of E85 as it is extremely plentiful in my part and the high comp will allow the usage of a cam that will add the "fun" factor these 327's have.
Only problem, is im not sure how much dome on the pistons i can run..and still be able to use the vortecs?thoughts? ideas? the 492 are old and been sitting so id rather use the good vortecs..$$

1. Talk to your machine shop and see if they will profile pistons to match the chambers.

2. Use flat tops and get the heads milled.

1. Talk to your machine shop and see if they will profile pistons to match the chambers.

2. Use flat tops and get the heads milled.

I am running a flattop and 64cc's. That will get me 9.5 to 10 to 1 in a 327 won't it?

If you're dead set on using dome pistons with the vortecs you may look in to something like these that have a notched dome. Call Summit and ask them if it would work.

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=UEM%2DKB791030%2D8&autoview=sku

I think you'd be better off with flat tops and those vortec heads though.

Mark

Superfly congrats on you decison to run a short stroke motor! I've run many 302 and a 12.5:1 331 just for kicks myself.

To run 11.5:1 with your 63cc heads will present a few challenges. Things going for you are it's bored .060 which bumps up the SCR slightly, down side doesn't sound like you've zero decked the block and you'll probably be running a .041 thick composite head gasket which the two combined will drop your SCR and your quench will be quite high.

With your current combo you'll need an 11-12 cc domed piston which is death by detonation waiting to happen on pump gas, I don't know how much E85 helps this out, but it's probably significant. A better plan to me would be to zero deck the block or select a piston with a compression height that puts it at the top of the cylinder. Assuming your block has not been cut and has the stock 9.025 deck height this will require a 1.7 comp height piston if using 5.7 length rods. Once you've got it to zero deck run the .039-.041 composite head gasket and that'll be a good quench as well.

You can flat mill the heads .030 to get the chambers down around 58cc or use them as is at 63 cc. At zero deck and your 63cc heads you'll need a 6cc domed piston to put you at 11.5:1 SCR, or if you flat mill the heads the max allowable to 58cc you can run a piston with as little as 1cc dome, I don't think they make such an animal, but if you buy a solid dome the machine shop can cut it down for you. The 6cc dome should be available off the shelf with something like KB forged piston KB793 which is 6.26cc dome that measures .163 inches in height and the dome looks like it is a heart shape rather than a straight dome that MAY work with the vortec head, but check it out closely first.

Since you are running iron heads you'll need to bump the DCR down a little compared to an aluminum head and you can do this by running a late closing intake valve but it will soften your bottom end even more with the short stroke motor. An intake valve closing at 58 ABDC like the old 140 solid cam will get your DCR down to 8.5 which is about max on pump gas.

It's tough to build decent compression with a short stroke motor using flat top pistons, but if you get the deck to zero, cut the heads, use the right gasket you can do it with minimum dome and that would be my goal.

Great post Sy1!!the block is actually still at the machine shop,so we will talk about this aswell.My Machinist does awesome work,but is more along the lines of a stock rebuilder/more of a cylinder head guy.So he really isnt to up on getting good compression out of a 327 if its not a conventional setup.Will check into having the block 0decked/and or finding a piston with a 1.7 comp height.
Im not exactly worried about low speed torque is it will be multiplied with extreme prejudice, drive train plans include 4.56 gears in the S60,Muncie M20,Mcleod clutch,good driveshaft and u joints. thanks for the help.

Don't forget you can use shim steel head gaskets that have .015" compressed thickness,
Or a composite .025" compressed thickness head gasket to squeeze a little more compression out of it.
If your block isn't very straight or milled at all I would use the composite gasket, just going by what has been told to me.
Oh btw, good choice on the 327! You will catch a lot of crap from the "experts" when you take the car out for having such a small motor, though it can run down most iron anchor big blocks.

Dave,

Thanks for chiming in!!

pdq67

Hi Paul, gotta support the short stroke community of which I'm a proud member!

Superfly looks like the 1.7 isn't a real common CH? Speed -Pro offers 1.675 and 1.671, KB offers 1.678 for the 5.7 rod motor. I looked at 6 inch KB also. Basically using the 1.678 CH and 5.7 rods you end up at 9.003, the 6 inch rod and piston for it puts you at 9.010. Either way you still are deep in the hole with the factory deck height being 9.025. Whatever pistons you select do not buy any with oil ring slots or square oil ring holes. These are stress risers and the piston can break at these slots when heavily loaded. I have two on the shelf in the shop that broke under detonation at the oil ring slot. You want a nice round oil ring hole.

Since it's at the machinist now have them check the deck height to see if it's already been milled. Usually if the stampings are still on the vin pad in front of the right head it hasn't been cut. Just need to first see what the deck height of your block is, then select the piston so you know how much you'll need to mill it. I looked at all kinds of ways to get you to 11.5 SCR without cutting the deck and using the thinnest composite head gaskets, stayed away from steel shims, but best I could come up with was 10.9:1 or so SCR. Really appears to me you'll need to zero deck the block and mill the heads to 58cc which would require removing .030". That's the maximum you can flat mill without having to start cutting the intake too. Use the figure .006" flat milling removes approximately 1cc. With the max being .030 you can remove 5cc.

KB does make a .5cc dome piston which is only .100" dome. I don't know how it will work with vortec heads but KB will be able to help you with that. Summit has these

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=UEM%2DKB157060%2D8&view=1&N=700+

Once you know your deck height, you can select the piston and cut the deck further to get the piston to the top of the hole, run a .039-.041 thick composite gasket and mill the heads. That's the best way I see to do this to prevent running domed pistons, which will help with the flame travel and detonation issues.

By the way using the KB piston with .100 dome, 5.7 rods, zero decking the block, cutting the heads to 58cc I come up with 11.47:1 SCR and if you use a late closing intake valve of 58 ABDC or so it puts you around 8.5 DCR. Borderline with pump gas, but probably fine with E85. Hopefully some E85 guys will chime in here to help educate us on what DCR you can run with E85. Maybe Smits67 can help out, I know he's running it sucessfully on a BBC with something like 13:1 SCR.

Sorry to be so lengthy, but if your blocks at the shop you need to act fast I assumed. Here is a compression ratio calculator I like to use: http://kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp

Have fun with it. Remember piston volume is negative if using a dome so make sure to enter it correctly. Also the bottom two fields for DCR make sure to add 15 degrees to your intake closing point when you enter it, if your intake closes at 58 ABDC @.050, then add 15 and enter 73. Good luck.

Well i went to the machine shop today.And before i could say anything, his words were "Bob,i think this thing needs decked as everything is already square and u want high comp." Askd him about how comfortable he would be machining domes if need be.And he said it shouldnt be a problem,lathe is ready.
I was willing to run a tight quench,as ive read. "The effective range of E85 is somewhere in the 13.1 range."Which brings me to the fact im not comfortable running hyper pistons.Im sure this motor is going to see its fair little share of detonation in my E85 learning process.So i havent yet looked through the summit site,ill post back with my thoughts on good millable dome forged piston for my app.
Now anyone wanna spec a cam for the 11.47/11.5.1 engine with corresponding gears (as there not purchased) and M20 trans that will get loafed around on the streets *aka country back roads/no stop signs or lights*

Btw, thank you Sy, wuts ur 327 combo consist of

That 331 doesn't exist anymore and I don't recommend building one using these rods, heads or large domed pistons like this motor had. The double hump heads have known cracking issues, the small journal rods are too weak and the large domed pistons don't provide for good flame travel. Here is what it was:

67 small journal block 3903352 bored .030
67 small journal rods with ARP Pro-series wav-lock bolts
4577 forged small journal crank
461 64cc heads, 2.02 & 1.60 SIS stainless swirl polished stepped down neck valves. I cut the head myself for screw in studs and guide plates and opened the push rod holes for 1.6 rockers, heads were ported a ton.
Yunick cross ram intake, with air gap! Vintage 1973, (#8 runner not cut for HEI clearance like the later intakes), air gap isn't new technology like many think, just another design advancement from decades ago that Yunick gave us.
Forged TRW piston L2211AF had .380 inch domes = 12.15:1 with 64 cc head
Block was decked and heads were milled, combustion chambers I had opened up to unshroud the larger intake valve so chambers ended up at 66cc.
I used a 68 dated 780 DZ carb that I had laying around, it wasn't the best carb for this being it was vacum secondaries.
GM 140 off road 302 crossram solid cam and 1.6 rockers, trick flow push rods.
1 3/4" primary tube headers
There was so little vacum at idle, and idle was set high around 1200, the power valve was open at idle with the DZ carb. I needed to go down a couple inches on the power valve.

This motor was built a long time ago and was originally going to be a 302. But the pistons I got from Smokey had so much material milled off of them that I wasn't comfortable using them in a motor that would be used long term. Got a good deal on the 327 pistons and went that route. Better rods, heads, flat top pistons and an annular Holley mechanical carb would be the route I'd go today. My concern about the weak SJ rods is what that led me to tear it down in the end, before I scattered it like I knew I would.

On the E85 side of things 11.5:1 is way safe. I am running 11.44:1 currently and will be going to 12.5-13:1 shortly still running E85. The plan is to use a head with a smaller combustion chamber and my current flat tops to get the compression up -- with over 400 cid that is not too hard.

There is a trade off between high compression with a big dome piston which creates an inefficient combustion chamber vs. a little lower compression ratio using a flat top piston with a small chamber head. The latter would make a more efficient combustion chamber but trade off some compression in your 327. That is why bigger stroke motors (more displacement) really help because you can build more compression with a good chamber.

Personally I would opt for the flat top piston and small combustion chamber -- even if it only gets you to 10.5 - 11.0:1. If there is a small dome piston that will clear the chambers AND you mill the head down a bit you might get the best of both worlds since a small dome won't hurt you much. You just have to be careful which domes you get because it takes a special piston to clear the Vortec chamber. That forged KB looked like a good one BTW.

E85, up to 14 to 1 CR is fine.

Dave, I can't believe you shy away from the steel shims for c/i heads???

pdq67

PDQ -- who do you know running E85 at 14:1 and what kind of motor / cam? Been looking for solid documentation of anyone running over 13:1 (tops that I've seen)

Thx

Paul I've run them and wouldn't have a problem using them myself if I had a block that I didn't want to tear down just to deck it. But I know a lot of guys get hung up on these and want to use the composites, torque them and forget about them. If you used a steel shim you wouldn't have to deck most of the blocks to get your quench to fall in range.

Eric give Smits67 a PM. Chris is a great guy on this site and I believe he's running something like 13:1 BBC on the street with his 68 Camaro.

I think somebody over at Team Chevelle posted about a dedicated race only BB running 17.+ to 1 CR. and using E85!

Please do a search here and over there b/c the info is out there.

And the literature says it's good to 17 but personally, I would stop at 13.5 to 1 just to be on the safe side.

pdq67

Yeah, I know Chris, and we have talked several times. He is at 13:1. His 13:1 is the highest NA compression motor on E85 that I have seen yet. There is another guy at Team Chevelle that in some posts claims 13.5:1 but in other has stated "about 13:1" so I don't have much confidence that he knows (or is saying) exactly what his compression ratio is.

Paul, I have no idea where you got that 17:1 bit, that is why I asked for a link. I regularly read all the E85 threads and have seen nothing about actual experience running that high on E85. I did a search at Chevelles and I found a bunch of posts about people who say "should be good to 13:1 or 14:1" but very few who actually run it and actually know. I definitely found no one at Team Chevelle running 17:1.

Not trying to pick on you Paul, but I think we need to be careful about saying things like "14:1 is no problem" when we haven't done it yet. Would hate to see someone hurt a motor and take a big $$$ hit because they built an engine designed for E85 on rumor.

That being said, there are a few that I have confirmed that have run E85 at 13:1 without issue using medium and largish cams so I think that is pretty safe. Maybe 14:1 or higher is possible on E85 but I haven't seen any hard evidence yet that it is. I hope it is good for 14:1 . . . I think it may be good at 14:1 . . . but I do not know that it is and have not seen 1st hand evidence that it is.

I am in the early stages of an E85 "redesign" of my SBC and researching compression ratios combined with my own experience at 11.4:1 with N2O on E85 I think I will stay at 12.5:1 and a "medium sized" 260 @ 050 'ish cam. Because of the seasonal (and somewhat random) variability of the ethanol content of the fuel it is easy to fill up with a fresh tank and find yourself a full AF point leaner than the day before. Now if you were pushing the limits of what the fuel can support variability could potentially be a bad thing.

Now that may sound a little backwards coming from me since I probably have a reputation for pushing the limits of compression on pump gasoline (used to run 11.3:1 on pump 92/93 with a 248* cam) however, I think that the variability of the E85 blend is reason for a little caution . . . besides, an extra point of compression may not be worth much power going from 12.5 - 13.5:1 on the fuel anyways.

Hope that helps -- and if there are any out there that are running 13:1 or higher on E85 I would be interested in hearing about your combo.

Thanks all..wealths of info pouring in all around that is very much so appreciated!! Keep the E85 banter up, as id like to effectively become an E85 guru.As i see the turbo/supercharged guys love the stuff..and a blow through app is exactly what i have planned for my camaro in do time.
TRW forged .060 .100 domes are ordered,plans are for the milling/mockup to go down on Tuesday.Will know effective static compression ratio and wether or not my heads will be also getting a shave job*block was decked just yesterday* by Wednesday.Balance thurs,and final assembly should be this upcoming friday.Will keep all informed on how this goes, as high comp,E85, and these short stroke motors with big nasty cams are just damned intresting.Once again thanks for the help guys, this site aswell as big brother TeamChevelle are full of alot of people in the know..and not just talking it,but doing it!

Eric,

I just posted over at Team Chevelle asking who it is that's trying to run E85 in a 17 to 1 CR'd engine.

Hopefully I will get an answer shortly..

And right, I don't want to give anybody bad info either like you are saying I may be doing.

pdq67