I haven't been taking my 69 out lately because its been overheating when I sit in traffic. I finally got some time between business trips (and an occasional round of golf ;)) and decided to use the brute force method to try to solve my overheating problem.

Original setup:

wimpy small block radiator
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/dparks69/69%20Camaro%20Project/temp021.jpg

girly 16" electric fan
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/dparks69/69%20Camaro%20Project/temp022.jpg

sissy combination :sad:
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/dparks69/69%20Camaro%20Project/temp023.jpg

Now here's my brute force solution:

massive big block radiator
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/dparks69/69%20Camaro%20Project/temp025.jpg

(note how much bigger it is than the foo-foo one I was using)
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/dparks69/69%20Camaro%20Project/temp026.jpg

man sized Be Cool dual 12" electric fans
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/dparks69/69%20Camaro%20Project/temp024.jpg

real man combination :thumbsup:
http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/dparks69/69%20Camaro%20Project/temp027.jpg

I'll install it this weekend and see if I still have overheating problems sitting in traffic.

Thats Gonna fit? The core looks 3 inches bigger than the fan and doesn't have any mounts. Your batt in the trunk? Let us know. Post after install pictures.

You would think that would do it ha Doug, why some guys have probs and others don't ,I have no prob's with cooling ,I have a Harrison Big block Rad. 4 core or row shroud and 5 blade fan ,with a Electric fan on the front of rad. but don't use it ,but ounce in a while,like last weekend when it got to 97 deg. and wanted to keep her under 200deg.Hope she stays cool for you Doug Happy Motoring

sniff sniff do I small a deeply discointed wimpy radiator for sale @ a deep discount :-)

Doug, did you have any sort of shroud around that single fan? if not, i would think that was hurting you more than a small radiator/small fan.

Looks like your new BeCool fans are sized for a SB radiator? You'd still be leaving some area of the BB radiator uncovered and wouldn't be taking full advantage of that radiator.

If I were you, put the SB radiator back in with the new fan/shroud setup, bet you'd be fine.

Spal makes 11" and 12" dual fans. They look like 11" fans and the 12" will fit it better.

If you go to spals website they have the measurements on the fans.

Doug, did you have any sort of shroud around that single fan? if not, i would think that was hurting you more than a small radiator/small fan.

Looks like your new BeCool fans are sized for a SB radiator? You'd still be leaving some area of the BB radiator uncovered and wouldn't be taking full advantage of that radiator.

If I were you, put the SB radiator back in with the new fan/shroud setup, bet you'd be fine.

Now that I look at that single fan without a shroud I can't see it doing much also.

The Spal fans he has are designed for a BB radiator at 23". I don't know how he's going to mount them? I hope not like the way the single one was!!!!

Thats Gonna fit? The core looks 3 inches bigger than the fan and doesn't have any mounts. Your batt in the trunk? Let us know. Post after install pictures.

I may have to get creative to fit the radiator and mount the fans and trans cooler -- I'll let you know

sniff sniff do I small a deeply discointed wimpy radiator for sale @ a deep discount :-)

;) I will probably keep it for my next project -- you never know!!

Doug, did you have any sort of shroud around that single fan? if not, i would think that was hurting you more than a small radiator/small fan.

Looks like your new BeCool fans are sized for a SB radiator? You'd still be leaving some area of the BB radiator uncovered and wouldn't be taking full advantage of that radiator.

If I were you, put the SB radiator back in with the new fan/shroud setup, bet you'd be fine.

Guilty as charged for not using a fan shroud -- the car ran at 160 while driving, but once I got in traffic it was another story -- also, good idea on re-using the SB radiator -- the fans are 1/4" to wide, but I may be able to get creative and come up with a way to do it -- still thinking :confused:

Now that I look at that single fan without a shroud I can't see it doing much also.

The Spal fans he has are designed for a BB radiator at 23". I don't know how he's going to mount them? I hope not like the way the single one was!!!!

Agreed -- and I really appreciate the comments guys :thumbsup: I'll be doing some planning, measuring, thinking, mocking up, and hopefully will come up with a good solution before the fellas and I start :beers:

spal Makes 11" And 12" Dual Fans. They Look Like 11" Fans And The 12" Will Fit It Better.

If You Go To Spals Website They Have The Measurements On The Fans.

X2^.

Well -- the big radiator would not fit without me moving the battery to the trunk :sad: -- so I got a little creative and fabbed a shroud from one I had leftover from another project

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i86/dparks69/69%20Camaro%20Project/temp033.jpg

It seems to work a little better, but the temp is creeping up (although a little slower) while sitting at idle. I still think I may need to "modify" (translation: cut and hack it up) the dual fan setup I have so it will fit the radiator -- hmmmm, still thinking :cool:

Doug...have you considered flexalites Black Majic.It is a nicely shrouded big single puller that moves a ton of air and should fit that smaller rad core surface.It comes with mounting brackets and a fan controller.I can vouch for it..I have installed more than one with success.

just how hot was it getting? if it was under 220 degrees and the water wasn't boiling, then you didn't have a problem.
we can also assume that you had a good radiator cap on it, and a properly sized and configured overflow tank?
a shroud for a mechanical fan will do nothing to help with an electric fan.
i think your "wimpy" small block radiator was more than up to the task- you said it kept the car cool at speed, and the engine is working much harder at 60 than it is sitting still at an idle.
have you ever considered just putting a good stock HD clutch fan in it with that shroud and ditching the electric fans altogether? i'd bet that your problems would be solved, and it would cost a hell of a lot less than a radiator and electric fan setup that you don't need.

I have the perfect shroud for you left over from my project. It's made from aluminum sheet metal and has a 16 fan it it. $100 plus shipping it's yours. It's specifically for a 1969 Camaro Radiator with stock width which you have. I also considered the fan set up you have but it's just a little to wide. Here is the photo. It's a little dirty but never even ran on the car.
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g235/ToddAkes/IMG_0975.jpg

PM sent

Doug...have you considered flexalites Black Majic.It is a nicely shrouded big single puller that moves a ton of air and should fit that smaller rad core surface.It comes with mounting brackets and a fan controller.I can vouch for it..I have installed more than one with success.

George -- thanks for the info -- I'll look into it

just how hot was it getting? if it was under 220 degrees and the water wasn't boiling, then you didn't have a problem.
we can also assume that you had a good radiator cap on it, and a properly sized and configured overflow tank?
a shroud for a mechanical fan will do nothing to help with an electric fan.
i think your "wimpy" small block radiator was more than up to the task- you said it kept the car cool at speed, and the engine is working much harder at 60 than it is sitting still at an idle.
have you ever considered just putting a good stock HD clutch fan in it with that shroud and ditching the electric fans altogether? i'd bet that your problems would be solved, and it would cost a hell of a lot less than a radiator and electric fan setup that you don't need.

novaderrik -- it never got past 210, however, I was usually in a position to shut it off before it got any hotter -- I suspect you're right as I had the stock shroud and an aftermarket fan setup and didn't have any overheating problems -- I like the look of the March setup and was hoping that the electric fan would work so it would look a little better in the engine compartment -- hmmmm, I'm still trying to decide what I should do

Doug, what water pump do you have? I have a Griffin with a 16" spal and Stewart pump. I can sit in 95* idling and it never goes over 190 with the fan on (no shroud either).

I run a big block 23" core radiator in my small block with the Flex-A-Lite Black Magic #180 16" electric fan and my car can sit all day long and idle in 100* weather and never go above 200*(fan turn on temp). That shroud you made is not going to work. The shroud has to be molded to the fan. Not actually molded, but I mean it can't have big gaps around the outside. It has to be as close to the blades as possible. Here is the Black Magic #180:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=FLX%2D180&N=700+115&autoview=sku

It moves 3300cfm and like I said, I can sit all day in traffic or in the driveway and not get above 200*. Oh, I am also running with an automatic tranny so the heat from the tranny cooler is also going through the coolant and it still doesn't affect it.

There is no reason why a 16" electric fan can't cool any engine is set up correctly, especially with an aluminum radiator. Take a look at the Black Magic fan and get a rad that is comparible to the BeCool big block rad.

Doug, what water pump do you have? I have a Griffin with a 16" spal and Stwerat pump. I can sit in 95* idling and it never goes over 190 with the fan on (no shroud either).

Rick, the only difference between your setup and mine is that I have a stock water pump. Hmmmm -- I'll do some more investigating since I can't sit in 95* weather at idle and keep it at 190

I run a big block 23" core radiator in my small block with the Flex-A-Lite Black Magic #180 16" electric fan and my car can sit all day long and idle in 100* weather and never go above 200*(fan turn on temp). That shroud you made is not going to work. The shroud has to be molded to the fan. Not actually molded, but I mean it can't have big gaps around the outside. It has to be as close to the blades as possible. Here is the Black Magic #180:
http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=FLX%2D180&N=700+115&autoview=sku

It moves 3300cfm and like I said, I can sit all day in traffic or in the driveway and not get above 200*. Oh, I am also running with an automatic tranny so the heat from the tranny cooler is also going through the coolant and it still doesn't affect it.

There is no reason why a 16" electric fan can't cool any engine is set up correctly, especially with an aluminum radiator. Take a look at the Black Magic fan and get a rad that is comparible to the BeCool big block rad.

Charlie - agreed, I really didn't think the shroud was going to help, but I couldn't sit around all weekend and not try something. Thanks for the info -- I'll check the link you provided and do some more research :thumbsup:

To add to what Charlie said... as long as you have your electric fan mounted up against the radiator like that, a shroud isn't going to do anything for you, you're still only going to pull air through an area the size of the fan. you want the opening of the shroud to be as close to the size of the fan as possible. Good idea to also have the fan mounted back a couple inches from the radiator to help get airflow over the entire area of the radiator.

Get yourself some sheet metal, tin snips, pop rivets and make yourself a shroud. not only will you have a trick looking shroud, you'll have made it yourself and it'll be custom fit to your radiator and fan. And then you'll only be out the cost of some sheet metal, which could probably be had for free if you pick up scraps from a sheet metal shop. But I'm cheap like that and have more fun scratching my head figuring out how I can make something that would work.

Charlie - agreed, I really didn't think the shroud was going to help, but I couldn't sit around all weekend and not try something. Thanks for the info -- I'll check the link you provided and do some more research :thumbsup:
the only thing left to try is the one that the highly skilled and highly paid engineers at GM came up with 40 years ago- a stock mechanical fan with the proper stock shroud.
if you MUST go electric, get a fan that covers as much of the core as possible. i kept the vortec headed/HOT cammed 355 in my Nova cool with a 2 core 6 cylinder radiator that i found at the junkyard and an electric fan out of a 4 cylinder powered 85 Chev Celebrity- i only went that route becasue i didn't have the proper shroud at the time. when i got a shroud (from GM, no less) and a fan out of an 84 Z/28 Camaro i parted out, it stayed nice and cool that way, too.
one other thing- what is your timing at idle? if you don't already have the vacuum advance hooked up to full manifold vacuum, try it and turn down the idle screw to compensate. it may just be the thing that makes it keep it's cool at idle- and it costs nothing but a little bit of time and a very small amount of gas.

the only thing left to try is the one that the highly skilled and highly paid engineers at GM came up with 40 years ago- a stock mechanical fan with the proper stock shroud.
if you MUST go electric, get a fan that covers as much of the core as possible. i kept the vortec headed/HOT cammed 355 in my Nova cool with a 2 core 6 cylinder radiator that i found at the junkyard and an electric fan out of a 4 cylinder powered 85 Chev Celebrity- i only went that route becasue i didn't have the proper shroud at the time. when i got a shroud (from GM, no less) and a fan out of an 84 Z/28 Camaro i parted out, it stayed nice and cool that way, too.
one other thing- what is your timing at idle? if you don't already have the vacuum advance hooked up to full manifold vacuum, try it and turn down the idle screw to compensate. it may just be the thing that makes it keep it's cool at idle- and it costs nothing but a little bit of time and a very small amount of gas.

The timing is dead on as I had a mechanic buddy of mine who is real good at setting up these kinds of cars set it up for me. It would be kind of ironic if I ended up coming full circle and going back to the original blade fan setup -- I'll keep you posted once I have an acceptable solution.

The timing is dead on as I had a mechanic buddy of mine who is real good at setting up these kinds of cars set it up for me. It would be kind of ironic if I ended up coming full circle and going back to the original blade fan setup -- I'll keep you posted once I have an acceptable solution.
what do you mean by "dead on"? every engine in every car is going to be different. the whole problem could be that you just need some more mechanical and/or vacuum advance at idle.
these cars aren't something that are ever "dead on"- they need to be tuned and tweaked to perfection, and that only happens over time.
get yourself a timing light and vacuum gauge and start tweaking.
a good starting point for any small block that isn't stone stock is about 16 degrees initial timing at idle with the vacuum advance unplugged, with something like 20 more degrees added when the vacuum can on the distributor is hooked up to full manifold vacuum.
yes- that's 36 degrees at idle, and yes, it works good like that..
get the idle mixture screws adjusted for max vacuum and idle speed, then turn the idle back down to where it wants to run smoothly in gear and turn the screws some more and turn the idle back down until you reach the point where it doesn't get any better- just getting the ignition timing and mixture screws set properly for your particular engine can make the difference between a hot running engine and one that sits at thermostat temp all day long.

what do you mean by "dead on"? every engine in every car is going to be different. the whole problem could be that you just need some more mechanical and/or vacuum advance at idle.
these cars aren't something that are ever "dead on"- they need to be tuned and tweaked to perfection, and that only happens over time.
get yourself a timing light and vacuum gauge and start tweaking.
a good starting point for any small block that isn't stone stock is about 16 degrees initial timing at idle with the vacuum advance unplugged, with something like 20 more degrees added when the vacuum can on the distributor is hooked up to full manifold vacuum.
yes- that's 36 degrees at idle, and yes, it works good like that..
get the idle mixture screws adjusted for max vacuum and idle speed, then turn the idle back down to where it wants to run smoothly in gear and turn the screws some more and turn the idle back down until you reach the point where it doesn't get any better- just getting the ignition timing and mixture screws set properly for your particular engine can make the difference between a hot running engine and one that sits at thermostat temp all day long.

By "dead on", I mean that my mechanic friend, who owns his own shop and has been doing this for a living for a long time, and is especially talented with American muscle cars (he owns a big block 68 Camaro as well) tuned my Camaro, changed the weights in the distributor, set it up so it would be 38* total advance at 3000 RPM (per the cam specs), and adjusted the idle mixture and jets in the carb. Trust me that its "dead on". The car starts (when its warmed up) after one turn and when I hit 3000 RPM where the cam kicks in, lets just say it will get you attention, and rev to 7 grand real quick.

Bottom line is that without the shroud, the fan doesn't draw enough CFM through the entire radiator core to cool things down at idle. I believe the solution will either be an aluminum shroud around the electric fan or the good old manual fan blade and stock shroud -- stay tuned.

You need to check out the Black Magic fan. It has its own shroud and pulls more than enough CFM to cool any motor(3300cfm).
http://www.flex-a-lite.com/auto/html/180_black_magic_x-treme.html

By "dead on", I mean that my mechanic friend, who owns his own shop and has been doing this for a living for a long time, and is especially talented with American muscle cars (he owns a big block 68 Camaro as well) tuned my Camaro, changed the weights in the distributor, set it up so it would be 38* total advance at 3000 RPM (per the cam specs), and adjusted the idle mixture and jets in the carb. Trust me that its "dead on". The car starts (when its warmed up) after one turn and when I hit 3000 RPM where the cam kicks in, lets just say it will get you attention, and rev to 7 grand real quick.

Bottom line is that without the shroud, the fan doesn't draw enough CFM through the entire radiator core to cool things down at idle. I believe the solution will either be an aluminum shroud around the electric fan or the good old manual fan blade and stock shroud -- stay tuned.
the tuneup may be "dead on" for performance and driveability, but where is the vacuum advance hooked up? it costs nothing but a little bit of time and a little bit of gas to move the vacuum hose and adjust the idle screw.
i've seen some pretty stout motors that stayed nice and cool using radiators and fans that were supposedly "too small", and mild motors in cars with the best radiators, fans, water pumps, and high flow thermostats get hot at idle becasue there wasn't enough timing.
i'm not doubting the knowledge or abilities of the guy that did the tuneup, i'm just trying to help.

Thought you had a big block...so deleted post.

the tuneup may be "dead on" for performance and driveability, but where is the vacuum advance hooked up? it costs nothing but a little bit of time and a little bit of gas to move the vacuum hose and adjust the idle screw.
i've seen some pretty stout motors that stayed nice and cool using radiators and fans that were supposedly "too small", and mild motors in cars with the best radiators, fans, water pumps, and high flow thermostats get hot at idle becasue there wasn't enough timing.
i'm not doubting the knowledge or abilities of the guy that did the tuneup, i'm just trying to help.

no problem at all -- I appreciate any and all information. One of the main reasons I post on this site is to get varying opinions and recommendations on issues with first gen Camaros :thumbsup:

I've read thread after thread, on many different forms, of hot rods overheating. I think I may have finally found an answer to the problem.

I was installing a set of March Performance pulley's on a friends Camaro last week and noticed that his water pump pulley was smaller than his crank pulley. Most pulley systems these days are under drive kits; the crank pulley is slightly smaller than the water pump pulley. That is the case with the pulley's on my '67, running a small block.

I've got a 355:1 ring gear, a 3 speed TH350. At 65 mph, I'm running at 3000 rpm. I started thinking about the basics of mechanics; you know, the big pulley, little pulley and, when tied together, the little spins faster than the big one.

I called Automotive Specialties Performance in Houston and explained my problem. He told me that the pulley system I have is exactly opposite of what I should be running. Rather than a 20% under driven water pump, I need to run a 20% over driven pump pulley. Simply stated; I'm not moving the water through the system fast enough.

So, I ordered a set of pulley's and, I'll let you all know how it turns out. It'll be about 3 weeks before the pulleys are ready because he has to make them; V-Belt. He's got the serpentine pulley's on the shelf, for most applications, ready to ship.

Russell

I've read thread after thread, on many different forms, of hot rods overheating. I think I may have finally found an answer to the problem.

I was installing a set of March Performance pulley's on a friends Camaro last week and noticed that his water pump pulley was smaller than his crank pulley. Most pulley systems these days are under drive kits; the crank pulley is slightly smaller than the water pump pulley. That is the case with the pulley's on my '67, running a small block.

I've got a 355:1 ring gear, a 3 speed TH350. At 65 mph, I'm running at 3000 rpm. I started thinking about the basics of mechanics; you know, the big pulley, little pulley and, when tied together, the little spins faster than the big one.

I called Automotive Specialties Performance in Houston and explained my problem. He told me that the pulley system I have is exactly opposite of what I should be running. Rather than a 20% under driven water pump, I need to run a 20% over driven pump pulley. Simply stated; I'm not moving the water through the system fast enough.

So, I ordered a set of pulley's and, I'll let you all know how it turns out. It'll be about 3 weeks before the pulleys are ready because he has to make them; V-Belt. He's got the serpentine pulley's on the shelf, for most applications, ready to ship.

Russell
this is another area where people cause problems because they don't just use what the GM engineers came up with in the first place. the oem pulleys might not be all shiny and blingy, but they are well designed and dirt cheap- and they actually fit.

I've read thread after thread, on many different forms, of hot rods overheating. I think I may have finally found an answer to the problem.

I was installing a set of March Performance pulley's on a friends Camaro last week and noticed that his water pump pulley was smaller than his crank pulley. Most pulley systems these days are under drive kits; the crank pulley is slightly smaller than the water pump pulley. That is the case with the pulley's on my '67, running a small block.

I've got a 355:1 ring gear, a 3 speed TH350. At 65 mph, I'm running at 3000 rpm. I started thinking about the basics of mechanics; you know, the big pulley, little pulley and, when tied together, the little spins faster than the big one.

I called Automotive Specialties Performance in Houston and explained my problem. He told me that the pulley system I have is exactly opposite of what I should be running. Rather than a 20% under driven water pump, I need to run a 20% over driven pump pulley. Simply stated; I'm not moving the water through the system fast enough.

So, I ordered a set of pulley's and, I'll let you all know how it turns out. It'll be about 3 weeks before the pulleys are ready because he has to make them; V-Belt. He's got the serpentine pulley's on the shelf, for most applications, ready to ship.

Russell

Russell -- good point -- when I ordered the March pulley system there was an option for an underdriven water pump pulley for more horsepower or an overdriven one for greater cooling. I had the underdriven one on my first 69 Camaro and didn't have a problem with overheating, although I had a stock fan and fan shroud. When I ordered the one for my current Camaro I decided not to take any chances and bought the overdriven one for better cooling.

I'm taking the holiday weekend off from any car related problems and having a few cold ones with my buddies here at the beach :beers:

By "dead on", I mean that my mechanic friend, who owns his own shop and has been doing this for a living for a long time, and is especially talented with American muscle cars (he owns a big block 68 Camaro as well) tuned my Camaro, changed the weights in the distributor, set it up so it would be 38* total advance at 3000 RPM (per the cam specs), and adjusted the idle mixture and jets in the carb.

That's great, but a) Is your vacuum advance working, b) Is it connected to the stock ("ported") source or to full manifold vacuum, and c) Is it fully deployed (providing a full 15* of advance) at your manifold vacuum level at normal idle?

You'd be surprised at how many guys who are sharp tuners for performance don't understand what vacuum advance can do for idle/traffic cooling and street manners, without interfering at all with performance.

If your vacuum advance is spec'd properly so it's fully-deployed at idle and is connected to full manifold vacuum, your engine WILL run cooler, without making any other changes. I've proven this to literally dozens of muscle car and Corvette owners. It works - that's the way cars were designed prior to 1967.

:beers:

That's great, but a) Is your vacuum advance working, b) Is it connected to the stock ("ported") source or to full manifold vacuum, and c) Is it fully deployed (providing a full 15* of advance) at your manifold vacuum level at normal idle?

You'd be surprised at how many guys who are sharp tuners for performance don't understand what vacuum advance can do for idle/traffic cooling and street manners, without interfering at all with performance.

If your vacuum advance is spec'd properly so it's fully-deployed at idle and is connected to full manifold vacuum, your engine WILL run cooler, without making any other changes. I've proven this to literally dozens of muscle car and Corvette owners. It works - that's the way cars were designed prior to 1967.

:beers:

good to hear you've got my back on this one...

i have also had to show a few people how to get a car to not only run good, but also keep it's cool with what looks like an inadequate cooling system. and it always seems to come back to doing things like the factory did them. sometimes it's hard to get people to realize that they aren't the first person to ever experience this kind of problem.