I was initially going to swap in a T-56 into my 67 in place of the Powerglide, but I have decided to work with what is already there. I am going to leave it an automatic and buy a 69 that is a manual and do the T-56 swap to it. My question is this, what is the main differences between the 200-4R and the 700-R4? The car is not going to be a drag racer. It's a daily driver and will have around 450ftlbs of torque and around 400hp. I believe the 200-R4 is the same length as the Powerglide with the exception of the tranny mount location? Is the 200-4R capable of handling 450ftlbs of torque? What I am asking is, what would make me want to use the 700-R4 over the 200-4R? Thanks.

Need to beef up the 200-4R a bit, other than that, the 700 has bad gear spacing & has less of an overdrive, I like the 200-r4 better.
If you are not going to drag race it, I do not see any problems.

What engine are you planning on getting 450 Ft lbs of torque?

MBHD

Either a 383 or a 406. Aluminum heads and full roller setup(cam and rockers). It had 324ftlbs with an Edelbrock Performer RPM cam. Now I running a Comp CS270H-10 and the stock 1970 350 cast iron heads. I know when I punch it to a 383 or 406, it's going to go past the 400ftlbs mark. Hell, with the old cam it made 324ftlbs. Now, with the new cam, I'm sure it makes more than that. Haven't had it dynoed yet with the new cam, but I can tell it has more just by the seat of the pants. Just say it makes 340ftlbs, jumping to a 383 or 406 will easily produce an extra 60-70ftlbs, and then add aluminum heads and you're gonna get an extra 50ftlbs.

A STOCK 200-4r is not as strong as a stock 700-r4.
A 200-4r can be made stronger than a 700-r4.
At low HP numbers under about 400 HP, the cost of each trans. is about the same.
Over 400 HP The cost of a 200-4r is much greater.
A gear vendors overdrive behind a TH-400 may be a better solution, at this level.

There is nothing like getting better gas mileage than w/a lock up converter that can stall high if you wish,& still have a lock-up function.

A 4l80e would be a nice bullet proof trans to handle the extra torque.
Also have it lock up for the better mileage.
A standard 4l80E rebuild will do it. A bit pricey though. Plus you would need a computer to controll it or a full manual valve body,but I know it's not going to be a drag racer,just thought I'd mension it.

My friend built a ( SS 1965 Malibu my old car) 406 Vitor jr heads,mild port job,9.8-1,.550 lift & about 236 duration @ .050 headers,Dual plane Victor manifold & made 350 HP & 450 ft lbs @ the wheels w/a Dyno pack dyno ,the ones that bolt right up to your axles.
Ran 13.1 -13.3 @ 105MPH @ 3500 ft alt. 355's rear gears, on slippery 275-40-17 radials.

MBHD

I was thinking of doing a Gear Vendors, but like you said, the lock up feature would be great. That is another reason I was going to do the 200-4R. I can get the high stall(2400 for my use) and also get the lock up and not have to use a computer. I found a place(Bowtie Overdrive) that has a level 2 200-4R for $1395.00 and is set up to handle a steady diet of around 450/500 hp and 400/450 ft/lbs. No drilling to the frame is necessary as they offer a custom made tranny crossmember that relocates the mount from the factory bolt holes. They also offer a wiring kit to activate the lock up torque converter.

Bowtie overdrives likes to nickle and dime you to death. I am sure that price you have, is without the torque converter. By the time you add everything up, you will easily be over $2,000. I just installed TCI's new constant pressure valve body to my 700r4, which makes your TV cable not as important, and I really like it. Yes, the 200-4r has a TV cable too. I wish that I would have gone with a gear vendors unit. Also the Lock-up feature isn't that great. The next size higher rear end gears, would make up for it.

Yeah a converter that locks up is dum (SP) :noway: Old school way of thinking

The next size higher rear end gears, would make up for it.:confused: It makes up for the high stall slipping?????????????:beers::cool::hurray:


MBHD

What do you mean the next higher size gearing would make up for it? I run 4.10's. I was always under the impression that a lock up converter is what you want for the best gas mileage, plus it creates less heat in the tranny.

Yeah a converter that locks up is dum (SP) :noway: Old school way of thinking

The next size higher rear end gears, would make up for it.:confused: It makes up for the high stall slipping?????????????:beers::cool::hurray:


MBHD

What do you mean the next higher size gearing would make up for it? I run 4.10's. I was always under the impression that a lock up converter is what you want for the best gas mileage, plus it creates less heat in the tranny.

A lockup converter is the only way to go for a driver car, and if you're racing you don't want an overdrive tranny anyway. Locking the converter in third gear was worth 2 tenths and 3 mph in my 11-second tow car.

I also got .2-.3 tenths + 3 MPH by locking the converter in 2nd gear in the 1/4 mile.

MBHD

I can get the high stall(2400 for my use) and also get the lock up and not have to use a computer. I found a place(Bowtie Overdrive) that has a level 2 200-4R for $1395.00 and is set up to handle a steady diet of around 450/500 hp and 400/450 ft/lbs.
Charlie,
If you get serious about going to a 200-4r then go to the Turbo Buick site an check out the trans section. I wish I had done it first. Some extremely savvy 200 builders there that can save you some money.

Charlie,
If you get serious about going to a 200-4r then go to the Turbo Buick site an check out the trans section. I wish I had done it first. Some extremely savvy 200 builders there that can save you some money.

2nd that.

Charlie,
If you get serious about going to a 200-4r then go to the Turbo Buick site an check out the trans section. I wish I had done it first. Some extremely savvy 200 builders there that can save you some money.

Thanks for the heads up. I will definately check them out.

I got my fully built 200r4 from Monster Trans at www.eatmyshift.com. Its great and comes in a conversion package. Shifts nice and firm

The quote made by me :

The next size higher rear end gears, would make up for it.

The comment :

It makes up for the high stall slipping?????????????

Was not made by me, and it has nothing to do with a stall slipping.

The lock up converter, basicly takes out any loss through the transmission, so you get a 1:1 ratio in 3rd, in OD you will get the 1 : .7. (or whatever is advertised)

So, an OD trans with lock up is running 2000 rpm at 65mph with 3:73 gears. Where as a non-lock up may run 2100 rpm at 65 mph and 3.73 gears. The next size higher gear is the 3.55 which would probably be running 2000 rpm at 65 mph.

Make sense ? I didn't calculate the above figures but they should be close.

The next size higher rear end gears, would make up for it.

It will not make up for it........you wil not get the same mileage as you would w/a lock-up converter,even if you are turning the same RPM w/a taller/higher gear same RPM,you will have slippage & therefore get worse gas mileage.

I know what you are saying,you will be turning close to the same RPM w/higher rear gears.


MBHD

Please talk to Jakeshoe, Bruce and the REAL Art Carr if you want a 200.

pdq67

Bowtie overdrives likes to nickle and dime you to death. I am sure that price you have, is without the torque converter. By the time you add everything up, you will easily be over $2,000. I just installed TCI's new constant pressure valve body to my 700r4, which makes your TV cable not as important, and I really like it. Yes, the 200-4r has a TV cable too. I wish that I would have gone with a gear vendors unit. Also the Lock-up feature isn't that great. The next size higher rear end gears, would make up for it.

Tom did you do all the tranny work yourself? Is the valve body assem. complete? When you were done, did you set up the TV cable yourself? For my winter project I am installing a 1989 700R4. I have it tore apart and am freshening it up. Do you know were the valve bodies improved on them? Or should I replace it?

The transmission was rebuilt by TPI in 2000. I installed the new constant pressure valve body myself. I did this install in the car, and I am not sure that I'd do it that way again ! When the new valve body is installed the TV cable must be adjusted to get your shifts, where you want them. My TV cable was previously adjusted for the shifting points, so I didn't change it. Since you are rebuilding your trans. I would look into changing that 1st gear. I have 4.11 gears, so my first gear is really short.

Doesn't the 200-4R have a taller 1st gear than a 700-R4? I have 4.10's so 1st gear is going to very short, incredibly fun, but short.

Yes the 200-4R has a taller first gear IIRC 2.75?

MBHD

DAMN 11.28 first gear. I am going to be blowing through tires like IKE is blew through Cuba.

Also the Lock-up feature isn't that great. The next size higher rear end gears, would make up for it.

Being able to lock the converter adds efficiency to your drivetrain that comparable gear ratios won't make up for. Slip is inefficient, and it also costs power.

TGIFFORD,

As you can tell 2004r fans are plentiful. However there is a new 1st gear for the 700r4 that is available...

2008 - "The Next Big Thing". PATC has developed a new planet gear set for 700R4 / 4L60E transmissions. This will be the biggest thing in 700R4 advancements in years. These will have a 2.66 to 1 first gear, 1.55 to 1 second gear, 1 to 1 third gear and .64 to 1 overdrive ratio. This is a 36% overdrive making this one of the best overdrive ratios around. The 1st to 2nd RPM drop between gears would be slightly less than the RPM drop on a 200-4R transmission. This is what people have been asking for, for years. These will work on any 4L60E type transmission without a gear ratio error code, if the PCM is modified. The sun gear is made from 4340 billet steel and the pinion gears are 4130 steel. The pinion gears are .180" larger and have 18 teeth instead of 14 teeth found on 700R4 type transmissions. This gear set is used to reduce torque multiplication / rotating speed in the transmission in first gear. This improves track applications that overpower the rear tires upon launch. This is common with numerically high final drive ratios. (IE 3.06). Now you will have a choice between the wide ratio or the new close ratio gear sets. It has been reported that the 2.66 gear set could lower your quarter mile time as much as 4/10 of a second over the 3.06 gear set. Plus better mileage and lower RPM with the .64 to 1 overdrive. The first 48 are in production now and the approximate release date is late 2008.

Other's- I am not a transmission mechanic, you may be right or wrong. I don't care. I have stated my opinions, and you have, yours. I think it's called a democracy.

I hope the gearset does not blow up like the ones made for the Th 400 275 first gear.

I keeped hearing that those cannot take the shock load as good as the standard gear set.
My friend had put the TH 400 low gearset in his Camaro & it shattered into pieces.

If you do not know about transmissions & there benefits I would think you should not post what your feelings are on the subject it may steer people into the wrong direction. Unless you have first hand knowledge & you could be the only one w/that knowledge then it would be fine to post. IMHO
Two cents thrown.

MBHD

TJ, I know there are a lot of 200 fans out there. I originally was looking that direction. But cost and availability of parts was what changed my mind. I am not putting up the HP numbers that many of you are showing. I am guessing I am in the 300-400 range (never dynoed). I am more of a do-it-yourselfer if at all possible. And I've done many of things to my 69 that I never had done before. From help from the TC members. So I like to know what items/issues must be addressed for my transmission or application. I have learned that there really aren't a lot of DIY's in the tranny section. And many including myself go by what we read, process the info and pass it on. I am not a tranny guy but I will learn by doing it and asking a lot of questions. Does anyone know what the price tag on PATC's - Next Big Thing is and what's it include? Thanks to all.

My thoughts on this "slip" thing and efficiency :

You can't tell me that, if an engine is not turning as many RPM's (higher gears), you are not going to get better mileage (unless you are below your "cruise" RPM). I don't care how efficient your transmission is. The harder an engine must work, the worse your gas mileage is going to be. That is the whole basis behind an Overdrive transmission !

My thoughts on this "slip" thing and efficiency :

You can't tell me that, if an engine is not turning as many RPM's (higher gears), you are not going to get better mileage (unless you are below your "cruise" RPM). I don't care how efficient your transmission is. The harder an engine must work, the worse your gas mileage is going to be. That is the whole basis behind an Overdrive transmission !

When you're working on efficiency and fuel mileage, a little increase in efficiency will make a larger difference in economy. It takes a very small portion of the potential power of your engine to propel your car down the road, let's say for example 20 hp at the wheels will keep you going 60 mph down a level road. How much power does your engine have to make to keep that 20 horses going at the wheels? 30? 40? As you have pointed out, it takes more fuel to turn the motor faster, and it also takes fuel to generate slip in the converter.

With my car I did some testing out on I-5 years ago and found that my speed would increase about 3-5 mph ( in the 60 mph range ) when I locked the converter with the throttle in a fixed position. Not real scientific, but a 5-8% increase in distance traveled equates to a similar increase in fuel economy.

The PATC gear sets possibly may have originally been offered by Chris at CK Performance who is big on the Turbo Buick board. I e-mailed Chris about them last year. Chris said that due to lack of interest in the 2.66 or 2.48 700R4 gear set (I forget the exact #) that they were discontinued.

As far as the 700R4, there is a reason the standard differential ratio was the G80 aka 2:77 rear gear by the time the 1989 IROC's received the N10 dual catalytic converter option. GM figured out that the 3:73 gears used in a 1984 Z28 would launch a car very hard coupled with the 3.06 first gear set of the 700R4. But the car would fall flat on it's face in the 1-2 shift due to the wide spacing between 1st & 2nd gear... The rear 2:77 gears would still have a decent launch with the 3.06 first gear of the 700R4......1986 was also the last year if I recall correctly that you could get 3:73 rear end gears in the Camaro....When the 350 engine came back on the scene for the 1987 model year the largest numerical rear end gear set offered was the 3:42 or 3:45 depending on the type of rear end you had.

The 200-4R can be built very strong, but it costs big money. The trans itself has not been made since 1989 when it was installed into the Turbo V6 powered 1989 20th Anniversary Trans Am. GM never installed a 200-4R in a Camaro. The 305 powered Monte Carlo SS which was slower than the 305 Camaro's saw a 200-4R.

The 700R4/4L60 is more plentiful without a doubt. If you are not racing, if you are not running 3.90, 4.10/4.11 and higher numerical gears, lets say 3:23 gears behind a nice, mild mouse a 700R4 will live a long, healthy, happy life and will cost you less....Remember though that the 700R4 was a replacement for the turbo 350. The turbo 350 never saw action from the factory behind a big block. The 700R4/4L60 and their electronically controlled 4L65E brother also never saw action from the factory behind any engine larger than a 350 mouse. There is a good reason GM used the Turbo 400 and 4L80E/4L85E behind stout big blocks. The same can be said about GM only using the Turbo 400 w/ Gear Vendors overdrive as opposed to the 200-4R or 700R4 behind the Reeves Calloway Twin Turbo Corvette (aka The Sledgehammer) circa 1989.

I've been blessed to rekindle some old friendships the past 12 - 18 months by some guys still in the auto service industry. I've met new friends along the way...I've humbled myself many times and learned alot of new things along the way. Technology is ever changing and even the once hated Turbo 200 can be built strong by the right builder behind the right application.

Whatever you do, don't stick 4.11 gears behind a 700R4. I don't think you'll be very happy with that combo. Just my 2 cents. Good Luck!!

PATC isn't making those gearsets.
In theory they SHOULD be stronger. Anytime you make a gearset numerically higher, you lose strength, as is the case in the TH400 2.75 gearsets mentioned.

When you make the gearsets numerically lower, you gain stength. USUALLY...

You have a limited amount of space to work with inside an auto transmission. About 7" diameters overall on the internal drums in the common passenger car units.

If you change the gear ratio, you aren't able to make the ring gear diameter much different. You have to make your changes with the sun gear and pinions. Sun gear gets larger, pinions move outward and get smaller in diameter to fit within the ring gear diameter.
This is what happens when making the numerically higher gearsets.

The problem with the 400 gearsets is twofold.
The major issue is that the common ones sold are simply junk. They take a carrier out of a 200-4R trans, and graft it onto a TH400 carrier and weld it.
The stock 200-4R carrier will handle 800HP, but when you install it in a TH400 carrier using the normal methods, you weaken both and 500 HP will rip it apart.

If you take just the 200-4R pinions, ring gear, and part of the sun gear, and install them in the TH400 carrier using proper methods it is good for about 700 HP.
They are limited to this because the ring gear on the 200 stuff is larger, and either it's outside diameter must be turned down weakening it, or the TH400s output carrier inside diameter must be bored larger, making it weaker.

So Jakeshoe would you say that it would be best if I just kept my OE 4 pinion gears? If they look to be in good shape.

With 4.10 gears the 2.66 would work better, that is one of the biggest shortcomings of the 700 design IMO for the average car.

Your mild combo isn't critical though and it doesn't seem you are after maximum ET with your parts selection.

Stock 4 pinion planets in a 700 aren't so weak that they are a problem, there are many other parts in the 700 that fail before the planets do.

Planet failures (in a 700) are usually contributed to a lube flow issue, not power.

A Th350 only has 4 pinion planets and the design is VERY similar to the 700, and they don't have failure issues.

Jake then would it be better if I did what I believe TJ said he did? Installed a constant pressure valve body. Or is it a case of changing some internal parts? TJ what year tranny were you working with? Was this an issue with the 89 model? Or is it an issue with all 700's?

IMO the constant pressure VB is a band-aid for a problem that really doesn't exist.
First I suggest you go read the instruction sheet for the VB.
IF the TV cable isn't hooked up, you still risk burning up the trans.
It has to be hooked up to get proper shift quality, so really what's the point?

Might as well just go full manual and forget a TV cable. Which I also don't advise but that's another discussion.

Constant pressure VB has one application, and that is in a combo with tremendous off idle torque. Think BBC with a Roots style supercharger.

Is the 700-R4 REALLY they unit to pick behind that type of combo? Just about ANY other transmission is a better choice IMO.

Constant pressure means constant wear on the pump components and sealing rings.

IMO it's a sales gimmick that plays on peoples fear of an improperly adjusted TV cable. You still have to hook it up, it still has to be adjusted, you still have to buy the brackets/linkage.

Not to knock TCI, but put your money elsewhere. Do your research and get it right.

Thanks Jake. Don't want to buy unneeded parts. So far I have ordered just the PATC combo kit #K1. I am thinking of buying also the Beast sun shell. Other than that it will be the Shiftworks kit, correct drive and driven gears, the OD lockup wiring and proper TV cable alignment bracket.