Got a question. I'm looking at a 1969 Z28 to buy and have a question about the dates on the heads. The car is a Jan 69 built Z 01C. The block is dated L-18-8 and its a 618 block. the assembly date on the engine pad is V0103DZ. The heads are 186 heads dated A 5 9. Is this possible the heads can be dated 2 days after the assembly date on the engine pad?

I would say no. Unless there was a problem with that engine/heads at the factory and it was set to the side for a bit and the heads replaced at a later date. Under NORMAL circumstances though the heads predate the assembly.

it just seems crazy that both Dr side and Pass side are dated exact. I bet there were issues in the assembly of the motor at that time. I cant say for sure but the car comes with POP, original bill of sale, original inspection sheet signed and also the original window sticker so its pretty complete and documented.

Nope, the heads can't be dated after the engine stamp if they are original. So they were replaced sometime.....

My feeling is, anything could have happened because it is a matter of 2 days after the assembly date of motor only. Its still 2 weeks before final assembly of the car! It makes sence but in this day and age, theres more 69 Z28 camaros out there now than were actually made but for this one, it has all its original paper work to prove its real and its birth certificate. If these dates were a week or so off, than I would say most likely not the original heads but I apprecate everyones thoughts.

I believe the assembly date/suffix was stamped on the block pad after the heads were installed on SBs.

it just seems crazy that both Dr side and Pass side are dated exact. I bet there were issues in the assembly of the motor at that time. I cant say for sure but the car comes with POP, original bill of sale, original inspection sheet signed and also the original window sticker so its pretty complete and documented.

IMO being that both dates are exactly the same. it would seem to me someone hunted down a pair of matching heads, maybe even one at a time, then installed them after the fact.

My feeling is, anything could have happened because it is a matter of 2 days after the assembly date of motor only. Its still 2 weeks before final assembly of the car! It makes sence but in this day and age, theres more 69 Z28 camaros out there now than were actually made but for this one, it has all its original paper work to prove its real and its birth certificate. If these dates were a week or so off, than I would say most likely not the original heads but I apprecate everyones thoughts.
It's really not something that depends on people's opinions.
It is dependent on how engines were assembled in the Chevrolet engine plants.
The shortblock was assembled, the heads attached, and *then* the stamp was put on the pad. All happened within minutes. Unless they had a time machine, no way those heads are original.

Hate to say, but all that paperwork is also available nowadays.
And paperwork doesn't count for much here. I've seen cars resurrected around a cowl, a set of tags, and even more paperwork than this one.

0103 is kinda late for an 01C car (at that point in 69 production).
LOS or NOR?
Got a pic of the window sticker? I should be able to ID a repro....

kurt if thats the case than you could question every single original car out there if you didnt purchace it from the original owner! That makes for 90% of the Z28s out there if not more! The original owner who is still alive and willing to share his stories about the car says its real but he sold this specific car years ago. Do you think the proteco plate is bogus with someones friends name on it for a joke? According to Jerry Mcneish, 0103 assembly date is within perfect time before assembly of
01C of the car. Its in his fact book.

2X4

Frist off....Welcome to Team Camaro......

It seems that you were not happy with what Kurt S replied....He only said 0103 is kinda late for an 01C car (at that point in 69 production). He also asked for additional information to try and help you with your question about this car......

I hope after your last post that he is still willing to help you.....

It has been said on here before there are questions that need to be answered and answers that need to be questioned.....

If you asked a question and was not happy with the answer you should do the research that is needed to question the answer to justifiy your response.

Kurt is a great source for factual information and ranks among the most knowledgable Camaro people in our hobby.......

In todays world these cars are prized and sought after by people that are not knowledgeable about them. There are countless fake cars out there and countless scams fake paper work etc. It is great that you have chosen to become more knowledgeable about your possible purchase. Just try to understand that we have seen and heard many stories about original cars that are just not original.

IMO the heads you question did not come on that engine from the factory. No I can not quote facts in a book or show you an example. It is just my opinion from being in the hobby for 30 years..... I still learn things about these cars all the time. I am not an expert.

However, Jerry MacNiesh is and your can ask him with a phone call or email he is a super nice guy a little busy but is always willing to help with questions about the Z/28 model. I am sure asking questions was one of the things that helped him and Kurt to become so knowledgable about these cars.

Good luck with your purchase and research.

8 Ball

Hey fellows, i really appreciate all your help and didnt mean to come accross that way at all but what i find it funny about camaro and corvette experts that they forget that in production, anything is possible. Nothing is set in stone. I waited to see what other camaro people thought about this situation before I added the original owner confirms what the car is. I'm not purchasing this car from the original owner but I spoke to him! thanks you for your thoughts and I appreciate your time.

In my brief 6 months on this site I can tell you as most can the Kurt doesn't make guesses, his comments have an obscene amount of research and experience behind them.

I would strongly suggest that you post photos of supporting doc's on here before you purchase and hope to get good feedback.

It sounds like you already have your mind made up and are looking for validation here, I have been there before myself and would strongly caution you to listen carefully to the experts on this board before you buy.

In your case I would say those heads are not how it originally left the factory.

Kurt is 99.99% always right with his remarks. If you doubt him, you can always review your info. and this post with Jerry McNeish and also JohnZ who worked in the Norwood plant. When it comes to the engine assembly, Kurt's time line is very true. The research that CRG has done, (Kurt is one of many of the original members of CRG), is the most accurate available. Even Al Colvin's book of numbers has been reprinted and errors corrected many times over the years when new info. has come to light.
:)

kurt if thats the case than you could question every single original car out there if you didnt purchace it from the original owner! That makes for 90% of the Z28s out there if not more! The original owner who is still alive and willing to share his stories about the car says its real but he sold this specific car years ago.
According to Jerry Mcneish, 0103 assembly date is within perfect time before assembly of 01C of the car.

....experts ... forget that in production, anything is possible.

That is the current dilemma in the hobby. Thanks to the proliferation of fake paperwork, a lot more cars get called into question.
If you feel confident on the history of the car, go for it. My comment is still: paperwork only isn't good enough anymore. :(

I stand by my comment on the block date. It's not the norm in January.

Nope, I worked in automotive assembly plants. A lot of things are not possible. The design of the system / process dictates what exceptions could occur.

Thanks guys. Keeping my mouth (keyboard) shut when I don't know really improves my batting average. Too bad I don't do that with non-Camaro stuff. :)

IMO being that both dates are exactly the same. it would seem to me someone hunted down a pair of matching heads, maybe even one at a time, then installed them after the fact.

I agree, my 70 Z28 did NOT have the EXACT same date codes on the heads, they were close, but not EXACT. Do not recall EVER seeing EXACT date code heads on an original engine... but, hey that is just me after 30+ years of playing with Camaros ...

My buddy's Z/28 had matching date 186 heads (mid May) He bought the car from the original owner, and the engine had never been apart. One head was cracked, and I was lucky enough to hunt down a replacement that was one day off. (but still before the engine build date)

I don't know how heads can be installed before they are cast. Maybe someone can help me understand.

Kurt did not say your engine could not have been installed in that car, he just said it was kinda close for that time period. People always say "two weeks to two months is OK". Kurt uses his knowledge and experience add more precision to the time lines.

Kurt has asked for additional info, not because he's nosey, but because he's trying to help. It's totally up to you to accept or reject his help, and also to accept or reject his findings.

I spent 21 years in Chevrolet Engineering and Manufacturing, and spent a lot of time at Flint V-8 in the late 60's; the odds against an engine having heads cast after the stamped assembly date are dream material. If an engine failed badly enough at hot-test to need both heads replaced, the block would have been scrap too; been there, seen that. :)

...I stand by my comment on the block date. It's not the norm in January...



Not to disagree with the experts, but 19L518297, a January car (01D?), had a V0109DZ stamped block.

Different plant, different date..... :)

What if..............They are original-to-the-engine heads ? What if.....the casting dates in the molds were wrong...........Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm ?????

just my .02 cents

PS cant wait for the "experts" to respond.

Lets not 'what if' this to death guys. Go with the experts comments.
Asking them to respond to dozens of 'what ifs' isnt condusive to progress is it?

Agreed !!!

Different plant, different date..... :)

Heres a January LA Camaro 518923 with a 0103 Tonawonda block, looks like a 01D car. Guess you're referring to Norwood built cars.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190259040172&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:MOTORS:1123

2X4 is correct.. re manufacturing... 'crap happens', and someone has to fix it the best way they know how. and for every rule there is at least one exception... Unless you have had this engine in your hands since the car was produced, NO ONE knows for certain. Bottom line: If the car/engine/heads satisfy the buyer, then nothing else matters.. UNTIL it's time to get the car judged (in which case, generally they don't remove the valve covers and 'dates' don't matter), or when he sells the car (and then it's between he and his possible buyers....

Oh.... and I make a point to NEVER take what a seller tells me as 'fact'.... I believe what I see and what I know..... that's all! (Sellers sometimes 'have forgotten', never knew, repeat hearsay, or even LIE!)....

What if......someone snuck into Flint, removed the original heads, from a motor built the week before, and replaced them with ones that were just cast that morning....no one would be the wiser, until 2008.

Senior Tech ?

Statistically speaking the probability that your scenario occurs is < 0.00001. On the other hand the probability that the casting date is incorrect is much, much greater. Come on now …….Stop making sense. You guys kill me !!!! Seriously, I love reading these posts anytime I need a good laff. Hee,he,he

Senior Tech ?

Statistically speaking the probability that your scenario occurs is < 0.00001. On the other hand the probability that the casting date is incorrect is much, much greater. Come on now …….Stop making sense. You guys kill me !!!! Seriously, I love reading these posts anytime I need a good laff. Hee,he,he

Senior Tech just means I'm getting old.

Actually, the probabliity is < 1:240,000!!

Hee,he,he

:beers:

I spent 21 years in Chevrolet Engineering and Manufacturing, and spent a lot of time at Flint V-8 in the late 60's; the odds against an engine having heads cast after the stamped assembly date are dream material. If an engine failed badly enough at hot-test to need both heads replaced, the block would have been scrap too; been there, seen that. :)

Hi John! someone made a comment on this thread earlier that the heads were installed before the engine was stamped; that conflicts with what I've always understood from working with '50's era cars.. and also causes a question: Is it even possible for the gang holder to fit closely enough to the head to make the vin and app stampings with the head on? I've always thought the app stamping was made when the short block was assembled, and maybe the VIN stamping somewhere later in the process?

Small blocks were stamped after the heads went on.
Big blocks were stamped before the heads went on cause the plug in the head was in the way.