i'd like all your ideas and opinoins on this please guys.
i want to build a 383 for my 69 RS/SS camaro.the car will be used mostly for street driving but with some trips to the track. it has a 2800 stall turbo 350 and 3;73 12 bolt.
i'm thinking of putting in 3;55 OR 3;31's [probably 3:31's]
i want to use some of the stuff i have on my motor now.

1] i have a 4 bolt main 350 block i'm going to get checked out....magna fluxed.
it is a 14010207 block
1980 to 85 4 bolt block......am i right?

is there anything wrong with these blocks for what i want to do??

2] this block has a passenger side dip stick tube......is this a problem? do i need a diff oil pan? or can i use the one i have now? can i still use my windage tray?

3]i'm thinking of buying a complete balanced rotating asembly to put in it. what length rods is best? will there be a problem with that block above?

4] i think it will be a cast crank in the rotating assembly.....think i'll have problems?

5]i want to use my 1970 GM 202 angle plug heads.i'll get them pocket ported i think?

6] i also want to use the z alum high rise and z 780 holly carb.

7] thinking of going flat tops......i want to use pump gas....whats the highest comp i can go? and how would i get there?

8]i want to stay with a hyd cam.....which would be best for the rest of the above stuff??

------------------
69 Camaro RS/SS 350.
GM 2.02 angle plug heads.
223 dur/480 lift hyd cam.
69 z/28 alum high rise.
69 z/28 780 vac sec holly carb.
4 bolt mains,steel crank,forged flat top pistons.
Turbo 350 2800 stall with shift kit.
3:73 12 bolt posi.
functional cowl induction & ZL2 hood

[This message has been edited by z/27 camaro (edited 11-27-2002).]

come on you guys???
how about you eric 68??? your opinion would be greatly apriciated. :]

you don't provide a performance objective..so its kind of hard to indicate if your combination is in need of improvement.

Sounds like your going for more the retro restore than the performance route.
The pan stuff I am not familar with.. you will probably have to noch the tray.

hey im pretty much building the same thing, I have a similer type of block but mines an LT1 and the machine shop were i brought the block to get bored and checked out didnt say i would have a problem. but im using Dart iron eagle heads, i think you need to do alittle grinding to make every thing clear though. your heads will work though.

the performance objective was is there...LOL

i am using it mostly for street use with 4 or 5 trips to the strip each year. :}

i would still like it to look fairly retro.....yes.....but not totally sure on that yet.

what do you mean by notching the tray?

[This message has been edited by z/27 camaro (edited 11-28-2002).]

well.. just going to the track is not necessarly any objective..what do you want it to run? 16s or 13s?

Use a hole bit and cut a 5/8 hole at the edge where the dipstick goes down.

sorry 89rs400....LOL
i would like to be in the high 12's in the 1/4
i can get a 13.3 in the 1/4 with the set up i have now,with slicks.....without open headers. :}

[This message has been edited by z/27 camaro (edited 11-28-2002).]

Why not consider a 400 small block? when cut to 406ci you have 23 more CID without much if added cost.
I assume you want this to be reletively mild?
If your using the mentioned equipment i'd aim at 9:1 compression or 9.5:1 compression.
The cam of choice for myself would be:
Crower #00224 Hydraulic
110LSA 222/230 dur .050"

well i'd like to get med to high 12's and still have it very streetable.not nessisarily mild but it would be nice to use some of my parts.
can i gain more with a bigger hyd cam?

is that block going to be ok?

whats the 110 LSA mean?

LSA = Lobe Seperation Angle, wider LSA (112-114) have better idle qualities and are used with Nitrous and EFI engines.
Narrow LSA's will help build Torque quicker and have a radical idle.
110 is typical of a High performance street engine, 108-105 is usually for all out street performance and racing, depending on the application.

I doubt that you can see faster times with a bigger cam, as your limited on the cylinder heads (they'll probably be around 165cc after porting).

I dont see why your block wouldnt be ok, but personally in your situation i'd be on the lookout for a 400 small block and the 50 extra cubic inches that come with it http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

Been out of town for a few days . . .

Personally, I'd leave the 3.73 gears alone and take the money you save on the new gear set and labor to set it up and put it towards some good aftermarket heads. There's not a big diff (pun intended http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif )between 3.73 and 3.55 anyway. Throw an old set of tall tires on it if you want to go for a long trip.

Flat top pistons will make too much compression with a 64cc head in a 383. Get 72cc aluminum heads if you want to run flat top pistons. The ProTopline have been spoken highly of around here and are pretty inexpensive for the flow numbers - I think you can get them in both iron and aluminum. I also like the TF 23* heads for the price (I've had great luck with them). Canfield 195's are another low cost good flowing head.

IMO an aftermarket cast crank will be fine for anything but the most serious revs and abuse (like NOS and 6500+ RPM). Rods - well, take your pick. If you are buying new aftermarket rods, the Eagle SIR's are pretty darn good for the price. If you are getting new ones, you might as well get the 6.0" rods, but the 5.7's are perfectly good too.

IMO if you go with iron heads keep the compression ratio between 9.5-10:1. If you go aluminum heads you want the compression between 10.0-10.5:1 IMO. Unless you go with a small cam or a very large cam.

You can go two directions with this build IMO - 1) torque monster and low gears OR 2) medium RPM band and keep your 3.73 gears. Nows the time to make up your mind for sure.

Eric

ps. The pass side dipstick block won't work well with a drivers side oil pan and T/C cover. I forgot what year they went to one piece rear main seal too - that will determine what crank you get. If Its a one piece R/M block, it is probably also a roller block which means factory hydraulic roller lifters work without mods, but to use a hydraulic roller cam you want a build that will stay below 6000 RPM ALL the time.

[This message has been edited by Eric68 (edited 11-30-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Eric68 (edited 11-30-2002).]

thanks eric :}

i'm still thinking about after market heads eric.hmmmmmm
i'm thinking medium rpm range with 3:31 gears [3:73 for now]
if i use my heads [pocket ported] and intake and carb.....a cam.....what do you suggest??for a cam........will i be able to get into the mid 12"s?

if i stay with these heads ....what kind of pistons to get 10 to 1 comp?

i'd like to put 3:31's in the rear too actually..........remember that its a car show/daily summer driver/a few races a year car.......i want the best of all worlds.....LOL and i want to kick some dodge butts tooo!! :} :]


------------------
69 Camaro RS/SS 350.
GM 2.02 angle plug heads.
223 dur/480 lift hyd cam.
69 z/28 alum high rise.
69 z/28 780 vac sec holly carb.
4 bolt mains,steel crank,forged flat top pistons.
Turbo 350 2800 stall with shift kit.
3:73 12 bolt posi.
functional cowl induction & ZL2 hood

If you want to kick some Dodge butts, keep the 3.73 gears, get some good heads, and put a cam in it with about 235* duration at .050 with a 108-110* LSA. Personally I'd prefer a solid F/T cam with duration right about 240* at .050 - the Comp 282s is perfect if you run the lash slightly on the tight side, or maybe one of the new Tight Lash grinds. The 282s is very drivable on the street and works with power brakes.

If you want to make it a show car / daily driver you need less cam to work with 3.31 gears, although a 2800 RPM stall will help some. Duration in the high 220's or low 230's at .050 lift on a 110-112* LSA. Comp Cams XE274 would probably work. Definately go with a dual plane intake here.

It REALLY depends on what heads and gear you are going to run. I'd figure that out as a starting point. Then you can nail down what pistons and cam you want to use.

[This message has been edited by Eric68 (edited 12-01-2002).]

thanks eric
what kind of lift are we looking at on those 2 cams.....the 282 and the XE 274?

the dual pattern hyd i have in there now is 223 intake @50 471 lift and 231 exaust @50 480 lift with 108 LSA.


do you have an e mail addy? i could send you a pic of my beauty?

The Comp 282s is a single pattern cam and would work best with aftermarket heads that have an excellent exhaust port. Specs are: 282* advertised duration, 236* duration @ .050" lift, .495" lift with 1.5 rockers on a 110* LSA.

The Comp XE274 is a dual pattern cam that would work with your stock heads especially if you plan on a mild port job and keep the 3.73 gears. Specs are: 274*I/286*E advertised duration, 230*I/236*E duration @ .050" lift, .487"I/.490"E lift with 1.5 rockers, LSA is 110*.

You may want to go even milder yet with the cam if you go with 3.31 gears. There are a bunch of cams out there that would work but the Comp XE268 should work fine. Specs are: 268*I/280*E advertised duration, 224*I/230*E duration @ .050" lift, .477"I/.480"E lift with 1.5 rockers, LSA is 110*.

There are other manufacturers that make pretty good cams too - I'm just most familiar with the Comp grinds.

I always like pics of other peoples cars http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif . . . just click on the letter icon above this post and you'll have my email address.

ps. You know . . . if you want to keep this a mild build you could always go with a hydraulic roller cam. You would definately need screw in studs and guideplates, but I hear those hydraulic roller cams make great TQ down low. It would be a good match for mild gears IMO.

Also - that cam you already have would work great IMO in a 383 with 3.31 gears. Just plan on the power band moving down 200-300 RPM with the larger 383.

[This message has been edited by Eric68 (edited 12-01-2002).]

thanks again eric

heres a possibly a stupid question.....why do you go with a milder cam when you go to say 3:31 gears?

This isn't a very popular idea, but if you use 5.565 rods, you can re-use your 350 pistons. This will also allow you to use a standard base circle cam. Yes, 6" rods are better, but I don't think the the average person will ever see any difference. Then you can put the money saved on pistons with the money saved on gears and put it towards the new heads.


Chris

Not a stupid question at all . . .

Gears multiply torque. If an engine makes 300 lb/ft of TQ at 2500 RPM, the transmission and rear end multiply that TQ and transfer power to the rear wheels.

With a TH350 trans and 3.73 gears that 300 FT/LBS becomes 2,797 LB/T on the rear axles when in 1st gear.

If you switch to a bigger cam that makes less TQ down low you get something like this: 250 LB/FT at 2500 RPM times 2.52 1st gear times 3.31 axle ratio = 2,085 LB/FT.

That is over 700 LB/FT LESS at the rear wheels! That equates to a 25% decrease in power at 2500 RPM. This loss of TQ multiplication applies to 2nd and 3rd gear too, so you will have less power at the rear wheels all through the RPM band. UNLESS you can make enough extra TQ with the engine to make up for less TQ multiplication in the rear differential.

That is why you want to keep the 3.73 gears if you want to use a larger cam.

thanks eric
this is a real learning curve for me buddy.....heres another question to hopefully NOT confuse the issue.....

does the duration of the cam.....ie: a lower duration number.... tell you if the cam is going to produce more torque at low rpm?

:}

I have another suggestion, assuming that you don't already have your 350 apart. If you are running 13.30's now, you should be able to get into the 12's with some minor work on your motor like a very thorough tuneup and maybe some minor induction or exhaust changes. There is also alot of tuning that could be done on the chassis that could help you get into the 12's with your current setup. I am assuming from you post that you really want more than that.

If I were in your shoes, with a pretty good running 350 that has a solid bottom end, I would be looking at adding parts to it to get me to my performance goals. You seem to want mid to high 12's with 3.31 rear gears. I think that is very doable with a 350. I would think that a good set of aftermarket heads (I believe that was already mentioned) and possibly a cam change would come close to getting you where you want to be. To me, that sounds alot cheaper and alot easier (you don't have to take the motor out this way) than rebuilding your motor.

------------------
69 Camaro
400 Small Block
Trick Flow Heads
Comp 282S solid cam
Performer RPM intake
750 CFM Holley
and a Muncie four speed
Pics of My Car (http://cards.webshots.com/cp-25368180-AyNI-album/38182394akfhbj)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by z/27 camaro:
thanks eric
this is a real learning curve for me buddy.....heres another question to hopefully NOT confuse the issue.....

does the duration of the cam.....ie: a lower duration number.... tell you if the cam is going to produce more torque at low rpm?

:} <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif MORE duration generally means LESS low end torque and more upper RPM power. LESS duration usually means MORE low end TQ and less upper RPM power.

BUT the mistake that I believe a lot of people make is putting in a long duration cam in an engine expecting it to make a ton of upper RPM power --- then the engine winds up being limited by stock cylinder heads that make the engine nose over at a much lower RPM than expected. So you wind up with no low end power and not enough cylinder head flow to support the high end power the cam SHOULD make.

The other big "watch-out" with big cams (long duration) is mismatching compression ratio, gear ratio and converter stall. Too little gear and/or too little stall make the engine really struggle to get into its power band. Usually you wind up seeing the guy playing with the carb all day trying to get it out of the hole without bogging (see it at the track all the time).

With too little compression the engine winds up being a dog on the low end AND dies at the top end too. There is a really neat Dynamic Compression Ratio calculator by Pat Kelley that really helps you pick the right compression ratio for the cam you will be using (check out Chevelles.com for posts by Pat - I think he has the link to his calculator in his signature). With too much compression you wind up with pinging problems.

Hope this helps.

thanks eric

cameron.......i've always wanted a stroker. my 350 is still in the car. i was thinking of aquiring all the peices a little at a time over say a year or so and then put it all together.
but you do have a good point there.

I see your point, if you want a 383, you want a 383. I just see alot of people go overkill on stuff like this when they really don't need to. I just wanted to make sure that you knew that you didn't necessarily need a 383 to make the car run like you wanted it to.

Good luck.



------------------
69 Camaro
400 Small Block
Trick Flow Heads
Comp 282S solid cam
Performer RPM intake
750 CFM Holley
and a Muncie four speed
Pics of My Car (http://cards.webshots.com/cp-25368180-AyNI-album/38182394akfhbj)