I've found myself at a 'Y' in the road and I was hoping I could get some peoples thoughts about engine swaps..

I have recently accquired a 2004 LS1 w/ 15K on it and I was thinking of doing the conversion and installing into my pro-touring '69 Camaro.. After days and days of reading threads from guys that have made the swap, it sounds like a lot more work than I had ever imagined and some of it is over my head... It also sounds like I have a bunch more money to spend!!

Another alternative is pulling my (somewhat untrustworthy) thumpin' 383 out and installing a year old 502/502.. I have a friend that's putting an original motor back in his '69 goat and I can get a pretty good deal on it.. If I sold the LS1, I would be pretty close on the money for the 502.

Obviously both motors will create a lot of work & money to swap out, I was just wondering which swap would be less work or easier work and/or less money, which swap would add the most value and be more fun to drive??

My objective is to get a good sounding, powerful, reliable engine that I can jump in and it starts everytime and I don't have to worry about it.. Mine has never stranded me, but it seems like I'm always fixing minor things and I just don't trust driving it long distances.. In fact, I would bet a paycheck that I couldn't drive an hour to my local drag strip, make a few passes and make it home with something braking! I want to be able to take off cross country if I so desire and not have to watch the gauges more than the road!!!

I currently have a 500HP 383 and a TKO-500 5 spd, 9" F w/ 4.11's. Appreciate any info or advice.. Thanks, Jason.

My opinion would be that being a pro-touring car, the weight difference would make the LS1 more fun to drive and would definately be easier on fuel.

...or save a ton of cash and headache and just go through the 383?

Youll regret not installing that LS1, an ASA hot cam, and a custom tune and stand alone harness from wait4meperformance

Ls1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's nothing "hard" about any swap... you buy parts that work together and then bolt them in. You have a bit more figurin' to do with the LS engine, as there are 5 different options on where to put the engine (ATS, S&P, BRP, Hooker, and Carshop-1inch-setback), and different header and oilpan clearances for each engine mounting option.

As to which costs more, you can't make any ballpark about that until you get down to the details of each. FI or carb, what accessories and accessory drive, etc.

Reliable depends more on the quality of work and parts than which engine you pick--it's possible to build a rock solid 502 that'll run for 300,000mi, just as it's possible to build a LS1 that craps itself every time you back out of the garage. It's possible put together a carb that works pretty well in all weather (ok, so ya gotta pump the pedal once or twice, big whoop), just as it's possible to put together EFI that pops and sputters constantly and is almost impossible to start. Or vice versa.

Personally, I like EFI a lot, and I hate carbs. The LS1's stock EFI you can wire up and feed fuel into it, and it'll run perfectly in any weather. If you do EFI on the 502, you'll be putting a good amount of effort into tuning to get it to run right. If you do a carb on either, you'll be playing with jets, springs, pump cams, squirters, etc.

Personally, I like EFI a lot, and I hate carbs. The LS1's stock EFI you can wire up and feed fuel into it, and it'll run perfectly in any weather. If you do EFI on the 502, you'll be putting a good amount of effort into tuning to get it to run right. If you do a carb on either, you'll be playing with jets, springs, pump cams, squirters, etc.

^^ +1.

I like the fact that I can go out to the garage, get in the car and simply turn the key, start it and walk away. I don't have to fiddle with choke cable, pump the gas numerous times and hope I don't flood it, and have to stay with it until it's warm enough to run on it's own. I now have a keyless start on it.....and that's the friggin shizzle!

The LS1 in my 69 has been nothing but pure reliability. Since the day I installed it, it hasn't had one single hiccup. With the mods done (cam, mild port work, LT headers, and a tune), I would be guessing 400+hp. It sure runs good and has been known to get 30MPG with the T56 and stock 2.73 gears. That's gonna change REAL soon tho.

Remember, the LS1 might have a little less gross HP and TQ, but the lack of weight will make up for the power the big block has. Plus, it's cool and responds VERY well to modifications.

Joe

LS1 without a doubt!!!!

It is a more driveable engine, it has a lot of lowend torque and it has power!.

In my car the LS1 id pure stock out of a 01 SS Camaro. Only thing I have done to it is a set of headers and a more freeflowing airfilter. No tuning, even if it probably would gain 10-15 hp with it.

I had a bigblock before, and driving it you could feel that it was to heavy in the front. With more than 200 pounds removed over the front wheels it now feels more balanced and it can be driven really hard in corners.

As other have said, it will start and run like any normal car. It is smooth and comfortable when driving normal. It is just pure enjoyment.

Swapping to LS1 is the best thing you can do.

It is not any more difficult than any other engine swaps. For a Camaro everything is available. Don't worry about tuning, it is something you never will need to do. Only if you change cams or heads, but tuning is just a one-time-only thing.

I braked mine to 360 Hp, calculated to the flywheel.

Just go for it, you will never regret it.


Jan

Thank you for all the responses.. I think the LS1 is definitely the way to go.. The electronics and SFI would just make it a joy to drive.. Plus I have have my power brakes back!!!

I do have one question I havent found an answer for yet.... During my searches, I've noticed there are several companies that mfg. the engine mounts. Some move back, some move forward, some move down.. We'll I'm running a TKO-500 5spd tranny that I don't want to swap out for the T56, which most guys use.. Will the motor mount up to my SBC bell housing? What about tranny location? I really don't want to move my tranny at all, becuase I have the shifter location determined, hump cut, new carpet, shifter ring mounted, etc.. does anybody make an adjustable mount that will allow me to retain my current trans location and locate the motor off the trans?? Appreciat any info. Thanks, Jason..

This is the bellhousing you will need for your swap.

http://www.keislerauto.com/index.php?/chevrolet-super-duty-11-bellhousing-only-late-model-ls.html

Definately keep that LS1. Trick Flow 215 heads, Vengeance Vindicator Cam, underdrive pulley, fast 90 mm intake and throttle body, and an electric water pump would put you at the 500+ RWHP mark, and you'll still get over 20 MPG. Your car would be awesome at the track and through the twisties!:beers:

http://www.vengeancerd.com/Item4.html

My friends 03 ZO6 Vette Dynoed this before and after the swap.

http://www.vengeancerd.com/gallery/album3/zoom2.jpg

Definately keep that LS1. Trick Flow 215 heads, Vengeance Vindicator Cam, underdrive pulley, fast 90 mm intake and throttle body, and an underdrive water pump would put you at the 500+ RWHP mark, and you'll still get over 20 MPG.

http://www.vengeancerd.com/Item4.html[/quote]

Schwing! Now your speaking my language! That sounds great and the bell housing will fit the bill.. Thanks.. What about the mounts? I don't want to have to move my trans at all if at all possible... Adjustable?? Two piece place & weld??

Schwing! Now your speaking my language! That sounds great and the bell housing will fit the bill.. Thanks.. What about the mounts? I don't want to have to move my trans at all if at all possible... Adjustable?? Two piece place & weld??

You may be able to ask the guys at Vengeance. I'm not certain on that one. They have assembled subframe for a 70 pro touring Nova on their site with an LS1 T56 setup, but they probably know what it takes to make the trans you have work w/o heavy modifications to a crossmember or mounts.

Use your existing mounts and make adapter plates to attach the mounts to the block.

You may be able to ask the guys at Vengeance. I'm not certain on that one. They have assembled subframe for a 70 pro touring Nova on their site with an LS1 T56 setup, but they probably know what it takes to make the trans you have work w/o heavy modifications to a crossmember or mounts.

Two steel plates with 6 or 7 holes drilled in them. Aka "mount plates", similar to these, although he'll probably drill his such that the engine is about an inch farther forward than this:

http://www.blown.net/cars/camaro68/ls1swap/DSCF2158.jpg

Two steel plates with 6 or 7 holes drilled in them. Aka "mount plates", similar to these, although he'll probably drill his such that the engine is about an inch farther forward than this:

http://www.blown.net/cars/camaro68/ls1swap/DSCF2158.jpg

Hey.. I can do that! If I make & install the mount plates (with no motor mount holes) to the motor and mount the rigid mounts to the chassis, I could lower the motor down and set back against the bell housing and then just mark the holes in the mount plates! Pull the mount plates off, drill/ tap the holes accordingly and I'll have her all lined up! Right? Thanks Rodder..

yep!

Some more great info can be found here.

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=472609

I would go 572 and let me get the 502...But all kidding aside my son is doing a 70 Chevelle and we would be iterested in the 502 if possible.

I have another question I havent found an answer too yet... I see a lot of people that do the conversion buy a new fabbed gas tank with pump/ filter @ close to a grand.. Why cant you just buy an external electric fuel pump & in-line filter assy?? Reason that I'm asking is that I just bought and installed a brand new tank a couple months back and I'd rather not spend the big bucks for the new tank if not absolutely necessary... Thanks, Jason.

I have another question I havent found an answer too yet... I see a lot of people that do the conversion buy a new fabbed gas tank with pump/ filter @ close to a grand.. Why cant you just buy an external electric fuel pump & in-line filter assy?? Reason that I'm asking is that I just bought and installed a brand new tank a couple months back and I'd rather not spend the big bucks for the new tank if not absolutely necessary... Thanks, Jason.

Jason, you can put an inline fuel pump with no problems. You will need to have a fuel pressure regulator tho. The LS1 will need 58 to 60 PSI. I suggest an Aeromotive AFPR that has a return line going back to the tank.

Good luck man,

Joe

Jason, you can put an inline fuel pump with no problems. You will need to have a fuel pressure regulator tho. The LS1 will need 58 to 60 PSI. I suggest an Aeromotive AFPR that has a return line going back to the tank.

Good luck man,

Joe

No problems as long as you keep the tank at least 1/4 full... unless the noise of the an external pump counts as a problem.

Spectra makes a stock-style tank with an intank fuel pump, and it's under $500 I think.

Thanks guys.. I've got more homework to do.... I'm getting some very good answers though! Thanks a million..

I have another question I havent found an answer too yet... I see a lot of people that do the conversion buy a new fabbed gas tank with pump/ filter @ close to a grand.. Why cant you just buy an external electric fuel pump & in-line filter assy?? Reason that I'm asking is that I just bought and installed a brand new tank a couple months back and I'd rather not spend the big bucks for the new tank if not absolutely necessary... Thanks, Jason.

Carbs have fuel bowls, so if the pump pickup is exposed for a moment, the car continues to run happily. With EFI, no bowls, and if the pump pickup is exposed for a moment the engine falls on its face. Acceleration and cornering can easily expose the the pump pickup with less than, in some cases and depending on how hard you're driving, less than half a tank of gas or so.

Carbs have fuel bowls, so if the pump pickup is exposed for a moment, the car continues to run happily. With EFI, no bowls, and if the pump pickup is exposed for a moment the engine falls on its face. Acceleration and cornering can easily expose the the pump pickup with less than, in some cases and depending on how hard you're driving, less than half a tank of gas or so.

That's the best answer yet! Thanks. That makes perfect sense now..

No problems as long as you keep the tank at least 1/4 full... unless the noise of the an external pump counts as a problem.

Spectra makes a stock-style tank with an intank fuel pump, and it's under $500 I think.

I found the spectra premium tank p/n GM32BFI @ Rock Auto for $451.99. for 1969 Camaro. Says "use with late model fuel injection engine, in-tank stock capacity fuel pump" Will that put out the 58-60 psi required?? Thanks for the tip!

I found the spectra premium tank p/n GM32BFI @ Rock Auto for $451.99. for 1969 Camaro. Says "use with late model fuel injection engine, in-tank stock capacity fuel pump" Will that put out the 58-60 psi required?? Thanks for the tip!


Make sure the tank is internally baffled.

Make sure the tank is internally baffled.

I'll have to find that out for sure.. Wouldn't all tanks with in tank pumps/ pcik-ups have to be baffled??

Make sure the tank is internally baffled.

I e-mailed Spectra tech. line and asked if it was internally baffled and their response was yes, there is a bowl inside where the fuel pump seats.. Is that the same thing as baffled?

I e-mailed Spectra tech. line and asked if it was internally baffled and their response was yes, there is a bowl inside where the fuel pump seats.. Is that the same thing as baffled?


I'd ask them if they have a picture of the "bowl" and pickup they can send. The only thing the baffling does is keep fuel around the pickup as the car starts, stops and turns. It probably doesn't need to be huge, but it needs to work. There's no reason why a $500 setup wouldn't work, but I'd want to know more before laying out my hard earned $$.

pics and discussion of the GM32BFI tank over on LS1Tech... http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9839849

pics and discussion of the GM32BFI tank over on LS1Tech... http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9839849

Good information there. I recall seeing those pictures and wondering if there was an exterior protrusion below the floor of the tank or whether the bowl was all inside the normal tank. The spot welds on the bowl lead me to believe it's all inside the tank. I might just have to try one of those. :yes:

Good information there. I recall seeing those pictures and wondering if there was an exterior protrusion below the floor of the tank or whether the bowl was all inside the normal tank. The spot welds on the bowl lead me to believe it's all inside the tank. I might just have to try one of those. :yes:

Me too.. That looks nice! & reasonably priced..

after doing the research, an LSX engine will cost you a lot more than the zz502 overall project wise. I have zero issues with my car handling the twistys. A comparable hp/tq LSX engine would have cost me $13k+. I got my zz502 for $8100. Your typical LS2 weighs about 450lbs the zz502 weighs 602lbs.

I suppose the ultimate test will come when I get a chance to pit the car against an LSX based car.

I'll have some track times on the car soon, and we'll see how it compares to some modern cars. I personally don't see how 150lbs is worth over 10k in upgrades to run an LSX powerplant.

I personally don't understand how anyone can compare a 350hp GTO LS1 to a 502hp big block... even with the 150 extra lbs.

after doing the research, an LSX engine will cost you a lot more than the zz502 overall project wise. I have zero issues with my car handling the twistys. A comparable hp/tq LSX engine would have cost me $13k+. I got my zz502 for $8100. Your typical LS2 weighs about 450lbs the zz502 weighs 602lbs.

I suppose the ultimate test will come when I get a chance to pit the car against an LSX based car.

I'll have some track times on the car soon, and we'll see how it compares to some modern cars. I personally don't see how 150lbs is worth over 10k in upgrades to run an LSX powerplant.

I personally don't understand how anyone can compare a 350hp GTO LS1 to a 502hp big block... even with the 150 extra lbs.

It's good that you got what you wanted. However, I'm not sure even short term cost is a reason not to go LS, and long term costs strictly favor the LSx engine which is going to get much better fuel economy than a big block.

Let's say you're starting either with no engine or a small block and want to make the switch. You can purchase a 480 hp, EFI LS3 with wiring harness, drive by wire throttle pedal, ECU (programmed by GM for the engine), starter and accessory drive for about $8,500. You may need to swap or modify the oil pan to get the engine into a first generation Camaro. As compared to a big block install you should buy a fuel tank with an internal electric fuel pump (available for about $500 with baffles) and you may need to change the driveshaft length depending on what mounting plates you get for your LSx. You'll need headers in either case, folks are adapting small block radiators to LSx engines, although you'd probably go heavier on cooling in either case, so a new radiator might be appropriate no matter which way you went. You might need to plumb a return line and there will probably be an adapter required to mount the transmission with the LS3 engine. Let's say fuel tank ($500), adapter plates ($200), oil pan ($500), return line ($50), transmission adapter ($500), drive shaft modification ($100) and cross member ($300) - for a total difference of about $2,150.

But for that $2,150 difference you have a modern, factory tuned EFI LS3 engine that will get vastly better mileage than the ZZ502. With an overdrve transmission and the right rear gears you should be well into the 20's on the freeway.

The key to your statement, however, is "A comparable [to the ZZ502 engine] hp/tq LSX engine would have cost me $13k+." That's probably right, but for most uses, especially track work or twisties, monster torque down low isn't particularly your friend. I've got a roughly 450-480 hp small block '68 Camaro that can break the rear wheels loose if I nail it in 4th gear going around a tight curve. I can't imagine how much harder it would be to try to drive a big block with huge torque on mountain roads or a road course.

Finally, people move batteries and install tubular control arms to take weight off the front end, 150 pounds is a lot of weight to lose.

Sometimes, less is more. I'm not in any way knocking your car or your decision, but to make the decision between SBC or BBC on the one hand and LSx on the other on a cost basis seems, to me at least, short sighted.