For those with street cars, how many of you have driveshaft loops? How do you install without screwing up the stock appearance?

Dave

Not sure what you mean by screwing up stock appearances. I held off because I didn't want to drill holes in my new floors. Yet, I am all in favor of safety. I was recently at the news stand and looked through a copy of Pontiac Performance ( might have the title a bit wrong ) and read an interesting article about a place, www.chiefmanyhorses.com. (http://www.chiefmanyhorses.com.) They have a drive shaft loop that bolts to the tranny mount/cross member existing holes. I bought it and like it. No new hole drilling, it's 1/4" steel and basically extends from the mount backwards with a loop welded to this entension plate. I may not be as clear as I'd like but this, to me, is a slick solution.

------------------
Rick Dorion
69 RS Conv,355,Autogear M22,4.10's and I don't worry about stone chips ( yet ).

My son and I installed a loop about a month ago.We were not to keen on putting holes in the floor.Figured if we are going to use the car at the dragstrip, with slicks, we would need the loop. We don't plan on having a trailer queen, but want a car that is somewhat compriable to the show cars you see.I favor"Better safe than sorry".

Just a thought. Make one. Shouldn't be that difficult. We've all seen the aftermarket versions and can get at least an idea. Or, buy one and modify it to bolt onto the sub-frame in one spot or another. Like I said, just a thought http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif

------------------
1969, X-44, Export Model, Hugger Orange, Std. Int., BC Rear(soon to be a BT 12 bolt), PDB, GMPP 350HO, M22 Supercase, SSM Lift Bars, AirGap, Holley 750, FlowMaster American Thunder Exhaust, FlowTech Headers

Thanks for the responses. Not sure why this post got moved to the PERFORMANCE forum though????

My camaro is a stock 396 car. Pretty quick but no more than the original factory. The car doesn't see the dragstrip, and like mentioned already, I don't want to drill holes in new floorpans.

Thanks for the link. I bet a could make a bolt up similar to what's shown on that website.

What have some of you guys done? Pictures?

Dave

Drive shaft loops are performance modifications. Yes it's a safety item but not many stock vehicles run quick enough to require a loop. I believe at the track it's a requirement once you reach deep into the 12's or maybe 11.99ish (don't recall 100%). Bottom line you will usually find them only on strip cars with slicks that run very fast and at that the performance forum is the place for the question...

NHRA mandates that if you run slicks, you have a hoop.(also think the 1/4 MPH is in there too?) Also thanks for the link.... looks simple enough.

------------------
My '68 Camaro (http://hometown.aol.com/Dougs68Camaro/index.html)
Doug G.
68 Camaro
406 ci.
13.5@102 W/ 2.73POSI.

You guys are missing the point. I don't have a car that's fast enough to REQUIRE a loop. I don't run slicks nor do I ever intend too. I don't drag my car and I doubt it will ever see the dragway.

But just because I'm not required to, and just because I don't go to the dragstrip, doesn't mean one could not have a failure just driving along. Check out the link below. This is why I ask.

http://www.chevelles.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/003049.html

I don't think that's performance related.

Dave

[This message has been edited by Scooby Doo (edited 10-07-2002).]

Yes, I did it for peace of mind on the street.

------------------
Rick Dorion
69 RS Conv,355,Autogear M22,4.10's and I don't worry about stone chips ( yet ).

Dave - you are the one missing the point!! You are talking about something that is almost never thought of except on a high performance car. Be it a tricycle, a stock Camaro daily driver or a 1000 point correct show car your best bet is advice about installing a driveshaft loop is from performance oriented folks and in the performance forum. The thread you reference from the Chevelle site is one that I have followed all along and there are 2 posts that stand out.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by redbuick:
My take on this is the left lower control arm bolt came out, if it sheared out of the mount the bolt would still be in the arm.
That allowed the rear end to swing down and back(as well as make the rear of the car swing left and front to the right) causing a severe pinion angle that broke the retaining strap and let the driveshaft slip down and out.
Had to be a wild ride, thank god no one was hurt or killed, sorry to hear of your loss.
Please if anyone is using aftermarket control arms to keep a check on them, i have the SSM bar on my 67'GS400 and have found some of the nuts about to fall of the bolts before.
I do not think the driveshaft or u-joints caused this to happen.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gokou:
Those pictures make baby Jesus cry. :-(

I have another observation. I believe you have your rear control arms mounted incorrectly. If those are TBC-4's (Del-a-lum on one side, spherical bearing on the other) you should have the bearing at the frame and the del-a-lum at the rear end. In the picture showing your broken arm hanging, it looks like the del-a-lum was on the frame meaning you had the arms swapped side to side.

At first I thought that wouldn't be a problem, but the more I think about this, it could have contributed to your problem... I think having the bearing on the rear end side might place a large torsional load on the front bushing/bolt when the suspension articulates, which may have caused the front bolt to fail. I'd call GW, talk to Doug and ask him what would happen if you installed the arms reversed. I'd like to think it wasn't a problem, but I can't say for sure, and Doug would have a much better insight on this than I would. I'd hate to think a simple oversight like that could have destroyed your car.

The picture I noticed is here...
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/dyeskey/chevelle/rear/pages/IMG_0463.html

[This message has been edited by Gokou (edited 10-07-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Point being RWD has been around for a real long time. If loosing a driveshaft was identified as frequent cause of accidents like Dave's everyone would have driveshaft loops. I'm not faulting you for wanting to add one, that's your business.

Sorry if I offended you by moving your post to performance. It wasn't intended to imply you have a performance car. It was intended to get you the best answer to your question and to keep the site searchable by placing the topic where it belongs...

Dennis,

No offense taken.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You are talking about something that is almost never thought of except on a high performance car.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, maybe, maybe not. But I bet a lot more folks will consider it after reading that post.

Dave



[This message has been edited by Scooby Doo (edited 10-07-2002).]

I know it's not in the correct place, but I made one from aluminum bar stock. I installed long bolts in the front seat belts at the driveshaft tunnel, and attached it with nylon lock nuts on the backside of the long bolts.

If you have ever seen a car pollvault because of a broken front U joint you wouldn't worry about the looks if you thought you had enough power to break one.

I watched one of my friends pole vault a 68 ragtop. Car was never right after that.

Steve

Rons68, that's sounds like an excellent solution! I'll have to look into it.

3d cad, what were the circumstances of your friends polevault? Did he have a stock car?

Dave

Guys - you're not making a guy with a completely stock car feel any better about driving around in it without a loop. Mike I know you are talking about big HP..

If any of you had a stock 396/325hp (or even 350hp) Camaro that never sees the track would you be worried about dropping a driveshaft?

Especially if it is a manual trans and driven hard at all....Yes...better safe than sorry...

[This message has been edited by 18436572 (edited 10-07-2002).]

Have to agree with DJD.If the car will not see the drag strip, I would not worry about a loop.In our case, the 396 going into the 67 came out of a 68 Chevelle that was running mid 11's. When we take in to the track probably will need slicks to hook it up.Have had the block bored .030 over,new flat tops,re-worked heads,etc.May fall flat on its face.Who knows? http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

I spent $50 for the one I previously mentioned. Cheap insurance. Especially since my crystal ball is broke!

------------------
Rick Dorion
69 RS Conv,355,Autogear M22,4.10's and I don't worry about stone chips ( yet ).

Reguardless of HP shafts(u-joints) let go if not upkept properly.Lets say the driveshaft lets go on the freeway @ 65mph.... would you rather take a chance at doing an "end over" , the shaft beating the underside of the car , or have a hoop for the sake of " just in case". I'll take the just in case.

------------------
My '68 Camaro (http://hometown.aol.com/Dougs68Camaro/index.html)
Doug G.
68 Camaro
406 ci.
13.5@102 W/ 2.73POSI.

Let me ask this: Does the convertible X brace serve the same purpose (although not intended to I'm sure) as a loop? If so does NHRA or whoever accept them in lieu of a loop?

Maybe we need a "Performance Mods Just For Safety Reasons" forum http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif



[This message has been edited by Winch (edited 10-08-2002).]

IMO a loop may not have saved that car. If the differential assembly moved back that much a loop may not have served it's intended purpose.

If the differential assembly moved back it may not have been the driveshaft that caused the car to start getting sideways. One tire may have wedged in a wheelwell causing the car to skew. If the differential had a control arm separate all kinds of ugly things could happen. After that the driver was just along for the ride.

From just the pictures it is not possible to determine the condition of the U-joints, yokes, or propellor shaft. It is also not possible to determine the condition of the control arm bolt(s) without an analysis. In any form of mechanical power transmission if the parts are not properly installed, maintained, and replaced when faulty no reasonable amount of safety equipment will save you every time.

------------------
The Red Beast http://www.geocities.com/casanoc

[This message has been edited by CarlC (edited 10-08-2002).]

Dennis, my old 56 Chev with a worn out 265 did it. Very good reason to get the best U-joints you can and keep an eye on them. If you have an auto trans I wouldn't worry about it but a manual with any decient power can do it.

Do all you guys saying "better safe than sorry" have drive shaft loops installed on all the RWD vehicles you drive? Have you insisted Dad and uncle Bill get them on their pickups? did you put one on the wifes SUV? What about grandma's crown vic? I'm not trying to stop anyone from adding a safety device. I'm just trying to providing some feed back...

Why are cars with slicks required to have a loop? Would it be because at speed down the track there is a chance the u-joints will fail? If it is then any car running should be required to have a loop. The reason is a car with slicks is more likely to dead hook and the drive shaft is going to be subject to much more torque. That's where the damage is gonna happen, off the line or banging second gear part way down the track...

Food for thought!!

Hey RickD

How do you like that loop from chiefmanyhorses? Did it put any significant angle into the front u-joint from raising the tranny a 1/4 inch? It looks like a great idea. Simple, with no drilling required.

Mark

[This message has been edited by mbrekke (edited 10-08-2002).]

If you really want a loop that is invisible I have an idea for you (whether your car is stock or 8 billion HP http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif )

This is what I did and although a PITA to install you cannot see it all and I drilled ZERO holes in the car.

Using .120" wall steel tubing I bent a straight piece that hugs the floor boards above my exhaust pipes and welded it to my subframe connectors on each side. Then I used a U-shaped "hoop" from a CE driveshaft loop kit (that didn't fit BTW) to go around the driveshaft and bolted it to some 2" tall "stubs" that I welded to the straight piece.

You could probably have the top U-shaped piece bent at an exhaust shop if you were starting from scratch. Total materials cost is probably less than what a good bolt in loop would cost.

I painted it flat black and always have to show it to the tech inspectors because they can't see it hanging down.

Here is a loop welded to the subfram connectors.
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/snakeyp76/vwp?.dir=/Car+Stuff/69+Nova+Drag+Car+Project/Chassis+cage+and+backhalf&.src=ph&.dnm=Sep05_03.jpg

------------------
Photos here: http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/snakeyp76/lst?.dir=/Car+Stuff&.view=t

A lot of folks for them. I think I have to ask the same as Dennis. All the people who say yeah, are you running them in your stocker?

I like Rons68's idea. Ron, can you email me some pics?

While, I probably don't need a driveshaft loop, I do see myself one day dropping in a bigger cam or even a 454 so...

Dave

I think about it from time to time. But I may be a little more paranoid because 25 years ago me & a guy stuffed a 302 in a original 6 cyl. 66 mustang. light 4 lug rearend & driveline couldn't handle the torque. It broke at the trans & pole vaulted us at 50 MPH. The floor under my seat, (pass. side) buckled and pitched my head into the roof. I thought we were going over all the way but he saved it. The car was forever tweaked after that. But that situation was a little different being we didn't make sure the car could handle the motor. I still think about though, that was one wild ass ride.

------------------
Steve
67 396 race car project
67 SS 396,4-sp mothballed for resto
67 RS 327,4-sp
72 RS 350/350, under current resto
69 4X4 suburban 350,4-sp
73 3/4 ton 454/400
Stevo Camaro's Toy (http://www.geocities.com/stevocamaro)
Our Muscle Cars (http://community.webshots.com/user/steve_lynell)

"better safe than sorry"...Anybody that has ever asked Me if they should install one....My answer has always been yes...If You had thought about it enough to ask for an opinion, You were probably concerned about it...

If I had said no and I found out that something did happen, well, it just wouldn't be good, would it?....

Not everybody is perceptive to strange noises/vibrations etc...I have driven and ridden in other peoples cars and have been like OMIGOD....what is that noise??? only to hear some kind of uhhh, I dunno, but it's getting worse....there is a prime canidate for one, someone that cannot distinguish driveline vibration from a loose exhaust pipe and isn't even concerned about it...

As far as a "stocker" are We really talking about Uncle Bill's pickup that probably would never see much over the speed limits,and probably never driven to the floor through the gears....or....are We talking about somebody's "stock" 396 4spd car that probably will get hammered through the gears on a nice open road sometimes?
I've always tossed in a loop on any 4spd car that I have owned and driven hard as well as any automatic car with any kind of "upgraded horsepower" at all...originality was never a concern...

Evidently there was never any real problems with stock cars dropping the driveshafts back in the day...or....the gov't would have issued a safety recall...
I was at the track last Fri nite and a 69 Camaro dropped a driveshaft right off the line...where most of them usually lose it and it was the rear of the shaft that dropped once again most of the time does...
Now...I was a passenger a few years ago in My buddy's 67 Nova,low 11 sec car,...We were making a run...just shifted into hi gear and out of nowhere KABLAM, KABLAM etc....got the car slowed down with no problems, coasted to the side of the road and found out that the rear of the driveshaft had dropped........You wouldn't believe what that thing sounded like and what damage it did to the floorpans...the car was well maintained and there were no vibrations or anything up to the time it let loose....Maybe that is why I am "Pro Loop" up till this day...

Just My "long winded" .02.....sorry for such a long post http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif

Good question. I have the energy suspension poly tranny mount. I removed the middle reinforcement plate , in effect substituting the drive shaft loop. No net effect.

------------------
Rick Dorion
69 RS Conv,355,Autogear M22,4.10's and I don't worry about stone chips ( yet ).

Rick

Thanks for the info. Looks like I'll be going that route.

Mark

I broke a rear u joint not too long ago shifting to 2nd (4SPEED) if you would have seen the floor pan damage it caused you wouldnt be worried about a few well placed holes to bolt the loop to. And it was a fairly new heavy duty u joint I think the strap failed rather than the u joint but no way to tell for sure

if it is a metal floor, it probably could'nt hurt to weld it instead of bolting it.

I built a loop off the back of the transmission cross member out of 1.0" round 0.120" wall tube. No holes in the floor. Just a thought....

After I have had a shaft brake, a trans housing brake to where it just spun around in the trans-well and seeing cars loop 180's on the freeway from a u-joint or shaft failure, I myself went to using a carbon fiber shaft for its saftey reasons.

A steel or alloy shaft can 'pole-vault' car, although the alloy shaft will be more forgiving. It is really the energy of the driveshaft and when it unloads (like causing the car to do a 180 on the freeway) is where the danger is. With a carbonfiber shaft, if it fails, the energy is instantaneously dispersed. It basically explodes, and the energy that would cause a car to pole-vault or do a 180 is no longer there.....basically it wont upset the chassis in forward motion. It is overall/rotationally lighter, and dampends drivetrain harmonics.

Almost relieves the worry of really needing a saftey loop......

Thanks for all the replies. Obviously by the response here, there seems to be an overwhelming support for the loops.

Thanks for the options. Goes to show that there are other ways to safely install a loop without drilling holes.

Dave

25 bucks. I am getting one. What is the downside?

bob spears

------------------
69mscle (http://homepage.mac.com/bspears/Menu10.html)