I decided today to tear apart my subframe and redo it all along with cleaning it up before I install the new motor.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f378/darkostoj/67%20Camaro/CIMG1773.jpg

I plan on doing these:

3rd gen power steering box
aluminum subframe mounts
competition engineering subframe connectors
hotchkis 1907f 2" drop springs
stock height spindle with 11" discs

whats left for me to decide is

upper control arms
lower control arms, or if I keep the stock ones what bushings
ball joints
whether to do the guldstrand or not
sway bar (thinking hotchkis holley 1 1/8)
shocks

What do you guys think is the best setup as far as driveability and handling/performance goes? I run a 18x8 wheel up front but also run a narrow 15" wheel for the strip so I would like to do a good compromise on handling and performance at the drag strip....I also want the car to be a little lower with the wheels tucking into the front fenders. I'm running close to 700horse out of my blown small block and my car is almost 100% street so having a solid suspension/steering/brakes is very important to me.

I'm thinking of buying the SPC upper adjustable arms because I like how I can do the alignment without having to put the spacers in there...if I get these arms is it still reccomended to do the guldstrand mod? Are there better control arms out there that I should look into?

for the lower control arms I was thinking about having them powdercoated and install the global west delrin bushings. Will that be ok? Depending on how much the powdercoating is along with the bushings If buying aftermarket lower control arms arent much more expensive I'll buy them.

As far as ball joints go I was probably going to use the stock replacement ones unless someone tells me otherwise.

what about shocks?

Please help me out here guys, this stuff is no where near cheap so I want to make sure I do the best job I can.

I too have the same questions about the sc&c a-arms and gulstrand mod. I'll wait to hear the advise also.

The SC&C Adjustable A-Arms are very nice. I've had mine on awhile now, they still look great and the alignment hasn't moved. Many many miles on the setup.

I used global west lower arms. They are nice, very pretty and the del-a-lum bushngs move nice and easy. I got them for free, I would not have got them if I had to pay retail.

Either the g/s mod, taller spinles, or an extended upper ball joint is just plain required. Don't even consider going without one and only one of these.

The SC&C Adjustable A-Arms are very nice. I've had mine on awhile now, they still look great and the alignment hasn't moved. Many many miles on the setup.

I used global west lower arms. They are nice, very pretty and the del-a-lum bushngs move nice and easy. I got them for free, I would not have got them if I had to pay retail.

Either the g/s mod, taller spinles, or an extended upper ball joint is just plain required. Don't even consider going without one and only one of these.
why is the tall ball joint required?

why is the tall ball joint required?
Taller ball joint not "required". Jim gives three options, you can only use one. By changing the pivot points you change the handling. The Guldstrand mod, the tall spindle, or the tall ball joint all change the pivot point. The effects of the change is not cumlative... You can't add up the benefits, you can use any one but only one.

Jeff

Wouldn't the taller balljoint be the easiest/cheapest? If so, then why do the others?

Jus wonderin...

B....t

The Guldstrand mod is the cheapest - it's free! From what I've read, the X tall upper ball joint from Howe, leaving the upper arm in its stock location, gives a slightly better result than the G-mod, slightly less than what the ATS tall spindle gives.

If you're replacing the uppers anyway, maybe not a bad idea to go with the Howes - but the G-mod would still be cheaper.

The ATS spindle, at least from what I can tell, pretty much requires the use of C5/C6 brakes.

The Guldstrand mod is the cheapest - it's free! From what I've read, the X tall upper ball joint from Howe, leaving the upper arm in its stock location, gives a slightly better result than the G-mod, slightly less than what the ATS tall spindle gives.

If you're replacing the uppers anyway, maybe not a bad idea to go with the Howes - but the G-mod would still be cheaper.

The ATS spindle, at least from what I can tell, pretty much requires the use of C5/C6 brakes.


How much $$$ are the taller upper ball joints?

alright so here is what i'm thinking so far

DSE 2" drop coil springs
DSE 2" drop rear leaf springs
SC&C (spc) upper adjustable control arms with extended balljoint and extended tie rod ends for bumpsteer (stage 2 plus)
global west del alum bushings for stock lower control arms
solid 1" swaybar
IROC power steering box
11" slotted and drilled rotors on stock disc brake setup
subframe connectos
aluminum subframe to body bushings
bilstein shocks

here's a couple pics.
http://www.Jimragtop.com/TC/front-11.jpg
http://www.Jimragtop.com/TC/front-13.jpg
These are before alignment, and the caster was WAY off still.

I just updated mine... I went with the TLC DRAG SERIES from GLOBAL WEST.... It looks great... I have not hooked the brakes up so I have not had it out running around check the pic...

http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq195/ianil8/IMG002251.jpg

http://www.scandc.com/balljoints.htm

A few more pics. This is the SC&C Stage 2 Plus and a Hotchkis 1 1/8" hollow sway bar and Hotckis 2" drop SBC springs, stock disc spindles.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/gort69/DSCN0127.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/gort69/DSCN0128.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/gort69/DSCN0137.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/gort69/DSCN0145-1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/gort69/DSCN0146.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v61/gort69/DSCN0142-1.jpg

We sell and install a lot of Hotchkis. We are also a DSE dealer. We have a great deal right now on Hotchkis TVS kits. With $150 rebate makes the kit only $1000 to the door and you get front and rear springs, front and rear sway bars (hollow sway bar, mucho better). Add some Hotchkis shocks, $340 and you have a sweet set up that is matched components. Add Some upper arms of you choice and a tal ball joint, the Iroc steering box, Speedtech solid bushings (we have 15% off right now on Speedtech) and your set.

Darko, arms don`t really alter geometry. They can only alter static alignment. If that improves the geometry a tiny bit then great but that`s all you get. The thing is that these front ends are very poorly designed. By modern standards they`re pretty much backwards. They should have negative camber gain in bump and they have positive. The roll center should be a few inches above the ground but it`s a few inches below. The roll center should be very stable but it migrates like nuts. It should have no bumpsteer but it`s got gobs of it. You can put a whole bunch of cool looking parts on a Camaro and not fix ANYTHING I mentioned. You can put stiff springs and big swaybar on it and call it good...but it won`t be. Or you can look at what should be fixed (because it IS broken) and do it. That leads to serious performance and drivability gains and a solid foundation to build on with other parts. Brand names mean NOTHING, the parst have to perform a function. If they don`t do that it doesn`t matter who`s sticker is on the parts.
The G mod was developed as a way to cheat in TranAm racing. Like most cheats it helped the car go faster but wasn`t ideal. Yeah it`s pretty easy to drill a few holes but stock arms will hit the top of the perches and they`ll need to be modified as well. Lowering the cross shafts moves the arms closer to the frame limiting droop travel and swinging the arms upward in their arms adds positive camber that will require more shims to dial out. Tubular arms make it easier to do because you don`t have to mod the perches and they may be shorter or adjustable to let you get the alignment back in range. The effect of the G Mod is still moderate though. So the G Mod is not free, the price is paid in loss of travel,time spent and further compromised alignment specs. Figure on roughly half the gain you`d get from an AFX tall spindle or 3/4 of what you`d get with our X-Tall Camaro upper ball joints. Tall ball joints are obviously a much easier mod because they`re a simple bolt in. You can use the std. tall ball joints with stock arms and offset cross shafts to good effect. The X-Tall Severe Duty ball joints are too tall for the stock arms to allow a proper alignment even with the offset shafts. Ball joint mounting angle and limited travel can become issues as well. Going to the SPC adj. arms takes care of those issues and adds much more adjustability than any other arms. With this kind of setup expect negative camber gain a little greater than a new Corvette (they`re fairly mild) and a reduction in lateral roll center migration of about 66%. The Camaro tall tie rod ends correct about 80% of the total bumpsteer and virtually eliminate it in the center 3-4" of travel. Properly designed tall spindles can yield even larger gains overall...for more money of course.
The solid sub bushings and sub connectors are an excellent idea (verging on mandatory). Those Hotchkis springs will work great. The 1.125" swaybar is a good choice too,especially if you`re doing geometry mods. A larger bar than that would just make it push with that combination.
Lower arms? Most tubular lower arms are just for looks or to replace damaged stock arms. SPC Performance tubular lower arms have adj. ride height,altered geometry to work with higher + caster settings,two adj. settings for the swaybar end links,etc. along with the usual (for good arms) greasable delrin bushings. If you think any of those features would benefit you they`d be a good buy. If you just want them because they look cool just about any tubular arms will do.
The 3rd Gen box is cool just check it out very closely before you install it. For some reasons I`ve run into a ton of them with bent or twisted pitman shafts,loose bearings etc. Odd because it should be basically the same 800 box as the oens used in the 2nd Gens and I`ve never had issue with them. If your budget allows consider a 670 box. Their hydraulics are much better,they`re smaller,lighter and have much better feel and feedback.
Whatever you do don`t skimp on shocks! Bilsteins have come down in price and can be had for around $75ea. sometimes you can find Konis for near that too. They`re worth every penny in ride quality and handling. Mark SC&C

I did the gulstrand on my 68 last year with stock BJ and A arms.
WOW what a difference, for the cheap fix that was the way to go.
It used to be awful to go around the free way ramp, tires squeal after 30 mph, hanging on ....
At 80 - 90 mph which way will it go?????No feel to the wheel just floating, and forget about a lane change at that speed.

I didn't like the look of the extra holes drilled and the frame ears being chopped off to clear the arms. I had a look at Pozi's web site and decided to cut the mounts clean off the frame and trim the bottom sides and re-weld them back onto the frame. I did this with the small block still in the chassis, had to pull the manifolds and water pump. I have the pictures on my work computer and will try to post them the 1st of next week.

By the way now I can punch it through the ramp and the car actually digs into the corner and pulls itself around, no tire squeal, it's actually a pleasure to cruise at 90 mph the car sits tight in its lane no wishy wash when changing lanes etc.
Why did I wait so long?

I changed over to disk brakes at the same time.

Jim & Al, and any others that have installed the SC&C upper arms, I note from your photos that you didn't use the stock studs to bolt the crossbar to the frame, you used larger bolts. What size and length did you use and what are your thoughts on lock and/or flat washers? I have the arms, joints etc. in the garage and as soon as I complete my present medical regimen I'll be doing this myself. Thanks for your help and comments!

The crossbars on the SC&C arms have vigger boltholes than the stockers. I think the stockers are 7/16, but the SC&C's need 1/2". I think I used1 3/4" long fine thread grade 8 bolts. Flat washers. grade 8 nylok nuts.

I think Jim is right on the size, as I recall. I drilled the hole in the frame to 1/2" and used grade 8 coarse with flat washers and locknuts - not the nylock but the all steel kind that are kind of oblong - not sure of the technical name.

Thanks you guys. I know the oblong, all metal lock nuts you refer to. I think that and some high strength LockTite and I'll be good to go. I can't wait to get my med treatment over and get this stuff installed and make a fast ride through the Sierras.

So far I bought

dse 2" rear drop springs
dse lower front delrin bushings
hotchkis 1 1/8" sway bar
front 11" discs with cross drilled/vented rotors
solid aluminum subframe to body bushings

i still need to get the 2" drop DSE front coil springs, iroc power steering box, and the stage II kit from marcus at SC&C which has the adj. front upper control arms and tall upper ball joint with the extended tie rods for eliminating bump steer

Darko,
I bought the tall tie rod ends from SC&C as well. When you get them you'll find you need new tie rod sleeves as well. They come with instructions on how to measure for the longer sleeves. I looked in a number of places and found nice aluminum ones, in most any length you want, for $7.99 each at www.speedwaymotors.com (http://www.speedwaymotors.com). Photo attached. You'll also need to get the lock nuts as well, which they have in stainless. Some outfits on the net are asking $30-$40 for a sleeve.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/RS/SR/Product/91034158_R.jpg

Darko,
I bought the tall tie rod ends from SC&C as well. When you get them you'll find you need new tie rod sleeves as well. They come with instructions on how to measure for the longer sleeves. I looked in a number of places and found nice aluminum ones, in most any length you want, for $7.99 each at www.speedwaymotors.com (http://www.speedwaymotors.com). Photo attached. You'll also need to get the lock nuts as well, which they have in stainless. Some outfits on the net are asking $30-$40 for a sleeve.

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/RS/SR/Product/91034158_R.jpg
awesome! thanks for the link I'll get these for sure.

how do you like that setup with the tall tie rod ends? You notice any improvement?

In October I bought the SC&C upper arms, tall upper ball joints, tall tie rod ends, solid Helwig sway bar, Eibach springs, Bilstein shocks and SC&C bump stops. Marc at SC&C was a great help in sorting all that out. Got the parts here and then got hit with a medical issue that's gonna slow me for another couple of months. Then I'll be able to finish this project. Here's a photo of the parts. I like the NASCAR type ball joint mount, cleaner than the four bolt.

Under the heading "Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans!" I finally finished installing all these parts I bought from SC&C a year ago. I did also buy a set of SPC lower control arms from SC&C and got some final tips from Mark. After reading the posts on this forum I decided to align the car myself with a Fastrax unit.
The assembly of the various parts went smoothly. I spent the better part of yesterday doing the alignment but when all was said and done the specs were spot on. I took it for a quick drive to make sure nothing fell off or made any major noises. This morning I headed up to the wine country in the Sierra foothills to try the car out on some nice windy roads up there.
So, was it worth it?? Oh yea! I threw the car into many tight turns and the tires never made a sound. She just went around the corner with no drama and was completely predictable. On the open road she's completely stable and easy to drive. The ride is crisper, not at all harsh and is greatly improved over stock.
Thanks to all who have posted here as my find of the SC&C package came from here. Special thanks to Mark at SC&C for the great advise and I'll be back in the spring when I do our '65 Malibu!

uhhhh my parts are still in a pile....this winter hopefully i can get it done.

I all finished my install too. I installed:

SC&C (SPC) upper control arms
Howe Tall Upper Ball Joints
Howe Tall out tie rod ends
Moog Inner tie rod ends
Speedway's 6" aluminum 5/8" tie rod sleeves

Everything went in easily once I started using a 4lb sledgehammer to work the pickle fork. I replaced the control arm hardware with Grade 8 coarse bolts and nylock nuts. It all bolted up easily and quickly.

This will be part of an overall suspension that also has:
Solid (aluminum) body mounts
Bilstein (Hotchkis) shocks
Subframe connectors
Moog 6308 coil springs
3rd Gen Steering box

The car already handled amazingly--the new control arms/ball joints/tie rods will hopefully take it to the next level.

Brent

Have you driven the car since the install? How is it if so?

Okay I really dont want to pour gas on the fire but reading things that have gone back and fourth in reguards to the topic of tall upper ball joints. Does not installing the tall ball joints give the same effect to the front end geometry as the g-mod. The difference being that the g-mod lowers the pivot point and the tall UBJ raises the angle of the UCA which in effect lowers that arms pivot point? So if one was not to do the g-mod, would the tall upper ball joint be suitable instead?
It was said in this thread that this change to front end geometry was for drag racing, but it seems it would benefit cornering ability more would it not?
Mr. Pozzi your word is law...:bow:

Kevan,
Thanks for the compliments.
The mods mentioned here work for handling. On a drag car, they are not of much benefit, except correcting for bumpsteer will increase your top end trap speeds by 3 to 5 mph, and extra caster will help steering response. Skinny drag tires typically run by drag racers really hurt stability though. Braking is much improved, the car won't zig-zag when you stand on the brake pedal.

The G mod not only lowers the inner pivots, it lowers the FRONT pivot a bit more than the rear one. This reduces front anti-dive, this is a planned binding of the front suspension when brake torque is applied to the spindle. It will resist dive on the front end similar to how traction bars lift the rear end when you accelerate. The anti-dive reduction with G mod is pretty small though. With a taller UBJ, the anti-dive is not changed, and camber gain is pretty much the same as the G mod.
David

Thank you Mr. Pozzi. With the back and fourth in this thread, Im glad you could clarify that if the Gmod was not used, that the tall UBJ could help to improve the handling at all.
Thank you

Kevin, keep in mind that the tall upper ball joint does nothing for the caster but the guldstrand does. The Guldstrand mod moves the mounting holes down and to the rear of the car increasing the positive caster. To do the same with the tall ball joint I think an offset upper control arm shaft needs to be used.

Jeff

Good thing I just put those on from Global West! Thank you for all the advice!

From a purely camber gain perspective I've been told by Marcus at SC&C that the Howe "extra tall" BJ gives better results than the GS mod.

I haven't looked at the extra tall UBJ. The Guldstrand mod lowers the inner pivot almost an inch, which offhand should be more camber gain than a 1/2" or 3/4" taller ball joint. Marcus may use a taller lower balljoint with his combo that makes more gain.

G mod adds a little more caster, but it's only .5 deg or so. The holes only move rearward 1/4" or so. The reason it can't be moved more rearward is the bolt heads would hit the bracket, and the A arm would also hit the bracket. I've received messages from guys who have done the G mod and had tubular upper A arms hit the bracket along the forward edge. Some brackets have this issue, most don't. Going to tubular upper A arms when doing the G mod is a great combo. Leaving the stock arms on will require you to hack a lot of the old bracket off to get enough clearance. Tubular arms require much less trimming to get clearance.
David