Hey guys, it's been a while since my last post but here it goes. I just want to get some opinions from you guys on choosing between a stock 400, 406 or 415. It's just that people and machine shops that I have been speaking to have been saying to me that the 400 chevy small block was not made to be stroke out. There is another worry that I have that has come to my attention. I also heard that the block has a poor cooling system. Well, I hope to hear from you guys soon. Thanks, in advance...

What are your performance goals? What's the difference between a stock stroke 406 and the 415? What is the incremental cost of producing these extra 9 cubic inches? Will you be carrying the same cost/power theme throughout the powertrain? Or will you surrender the potential of the increased cubic inches to some ill-advised parts selection elsewhere?

If you use a good water pump, high flow thermostat with a good radiator and fan you will have no problems keeping a 400 cool. John Lingenfelter's book has a special section on where to drill cooling holes in your 400. My daily driver 406 has never gotten above 190 even in 100°+ weather.

To get 406ci is nothing more than a .030 over bore. A 409ci is .040, 415cu is a .040 over with a longer stroke crank 3.800. I dont think that you really need to get extreme with the bore and stoke. Keep the stoke at 3.750 and get it bored to clean up the cylinders (.030/.040), save your money on this stoking stuff and put some good flowing heads on the car (AFR) and a nice Solid Cam. This will give you a warm and fussy everytime you hit the gas. Just make sure that the block is in good condition before investing money into it. All the above was said if you just want a goo street/strip car with about 450hp/tq range. I bought a new rotating assembly for my car off ebay: Im talkin Wiseco Forge Pistons $419.00, Eagle ESP forge 6" H-Beam rods $335.00, Scat cast/steel Crank 9000 $222.00, and main and rod bearing $55.00. This was for under $1200.00 on the bottom end. This of course is my little 84 Z28 street Camaro Convertible, so It will not be able to see much track time. You have to have a roll cage in convertibles (NHRA rule) and I refuse to do that!
400 got the bad rep for over heating because people did not drill the steam holes in heads, use a Fel-Pro 1014 gasket as a template or have a machine shop drill the holes. Too Easy... Don't let no one discourage you about building this engine, it will make some serious power at a very low RPM.

Get an aftermarket block, and then you can do anything you want. I'm running a Dart block, but there are several others.

ONOVAKIND67:

My performace goals are to reach between 550-600 HP, or maybe even more if possible. I will be speaking to the machine shop about cost in producing the extra 9 cubic inches. Once the new engine is built, I will be putting a rebuilt 200-R4 with some modifications that should handle that type of torque and horsepower. In other words even if go to a 415 and get a good water pump, high flow thermostat, radiator, fan and drill the cooling holes...the block should be below 190.


DLT504:

If, a want a 406/415 I will need to cut to 0.40 over? What if, I have a block that has never been cut(0.30) Would I have to cut it? or Is it fine if I don't cut it? You said that I could use a FelPro 1014 Gasket as a template to get the holes drilled by the machine shop.


69PROTOURING:

I would have wanted to use one but due to my budget I really can't. Hopefully, in the future.

======================

Well, Thanks guys. I appreciate your help.

producing that amount of power will narrow the rpm band. Thats really not what you want when trying to use a transmission that has wide spaced ratios like 700r4s and 200r4s. I would consider a more reasonable output level (in the 450-500 range) if your set on using that transmission.

You also have the issue of trying to pull that OD with some relatively conserative rearend ratio. Any thing higher (lower numerically) than a 3.5 will really not be kind when the rpm drops below 2000. The cam that will be required to make that output will not be near the optimum rpm <2500.

[/QB]Originally posted by crene67ss:

DLT504:

If, a want a 406/415 I will need to cut to 0.40 over? What if, I have a block that has never been cut(0.30) Would I have to cut it? or Is it fine if I don't cut it? You said that I could use a FelPro 1014 Gasket as a template to get the holes drilled by the machine shop.

[/QB]STOCK BORE 4.125
BORED .030 OVER STOCK, NEW BORE IS 4.155
BORED .040 OVER STOCK, NEW BORE IS 4.165
A 406 IS A 400 BORE .030
On a used OE block you will want to clean up the cylinders rather it take .020, .030, or .040 to get them nice and round. Ensure that you have them torque plate bored for a much straighter bore.
The Fel-Pro gasket already comes with the steam hole in the gasket, that why I said you can used them as a template.
Hope this help clear up things for you...
Good Luck!

how about a 377ci
Think of it as a "large bore" 350.
Better bore/stroke ratio and no clearance problems.

what is the intended purpose of the car? street/strip, strip only? The reason i ask is 550/600 hp can be built into a lot of different bore/stroke combos. however, this kinda HP out of a S/B is going to be a hand full to drive on the street both in maintance and and durability. if its strip only, go for it.

A 377 now theres a fun engine Rev to the moon!!!

A 377 is a 400 with 350 crank and 5.7 350 rods. It's been a while but what about using 6.0 rods when building a 377? To much pin in the ring land? Could be fun though!!

Joe

my opinion, if you have a factory block, just bore it .030, absolutely use torqueplates, and leave it at 406. if you want to go all out with a dart or world block, i'd probably still say leave it at a factory bore, whatever it will clean up to, then throw in a 4.00" stroke crank. there really is no reason to knock more bore out of a motor that doesn't need it, after all, why waste a future rebuild, right? and i doubt the change from 3.75 to 3.80 will net you much, at least imo. you can easily atain your goals,(easily being relative of course) with just a "plain 'ol" 406. get excellent heads, likely in the 220 runner range, the best you can afford. put a healthy solid roller in it, and build the bottom end for r's, a good crank, pistons and imo, a GOOD set of I beam rods. that should get you 550 horse with the right parts match, and trust me, that will be lots for the street, and with a good chassis tune will put you in 10's on the motor. not enough? add nitrous :D . also those cooling issues are old rumors. my 406 and several of my buddys have no steam holes and they run nice and cool, all the time, traffic to dragstrip. my car is using a factory 3 core w/ a good waterpump, and it runs 185-195 even in our recent 90+ degree weather(hey thats hot for western washington :D ) steam holes are for cars that see most the time in the under 2K rpm range, like a truck or taxicab. if it makes you feel better, heck go ahead and drill them though. these are just my thoughts from my friends and my experiences, for wiw. good luck with it, you'll love it graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I agree...keep it a 406. My 406 without the steam holes drilled ran 180-190 top in 100+ degree weather. I had a good aluminum water pump and radiator matched with a good stat, but ran it everyday.

Hey guys, what if your building a 400, bored .30 over and you want to buy a forged crank. If your going to buy a new crank why not buy 3.80 over the 3.75. If they cost close to the same why not. Just asking cause im in the same boat and cant make up my mind what i want to do. Help. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by CamaroJSU:
Hey guys, what if your building a 400, bored .30 over and you want to buy a forged crank. If your going to buy a new crank why not buy 3.80 over the 3.75. If they cost close to the same why not. Just asking cause im in the same boat and cant make up my mind what i want to do. Help. :rolleyes: What rod/piston combination are you going to use? How much more do they cost over a standard stroke set? How about block clearancing? If you're going to stroke the motor, why not go all the way to 4"?

I want to use a 6.0 rod and the comp. to be around 10.2 10.5. Im going to bore it .30 over, but I didnt know if I should go on and stroke it since I was buying a new crank why not stroke it. I didnt know if that extra cubic inches whould help any. tongue.gif

Thanks, for the responces guys.


89RS400:

Thanks for the info, I will take it into consideration. My transmission goal at the end is to get a 6-speed T56.


DLT504:

Please forgive my misunderstanding. I had confused the standard (.020) cut bore for (.30). Thanks for the Fel-PRO gasket template tip and for clearing it up some things that I was confused about. I also wanted to ask you what are you doing at the 1\4 mile with your 406? And what do you think you will do with that 408?


CamaroNOTCamero:

Thanks, for the recommendation but, I have already made up my mind. I have decided to go with a 406.


StealMetal:

The purpose for the car is going to be street and strip.


68RS406:

Thanks, for the info. I also, wanted to ask you what you are doing at the 1\4 mile with your 406?


Tracy Focht:

As I said earlier I am going to go with a 406 with the steam holes. So I can sleep a little better at night. LOL.


======================

Well, Thanks guys. I appreciate your help.

heres what i would do for a streetable 406. please dont flame me for this guys. First,id stick with the 3.750 crank, second, 5.7 rods (the short skirted pistons the 6.0 rods may cause the pistons to rock in the bore shorting the life for a street engine). you may lose a couple (2/3) of hp over this, NO BIGGIE. third get a set of heads that flow about 280@ .600. For the cr you are looking to run get a cam in the 236/242 @.050. victor jr intake, with 4 hole spacer, 750 carb and 1.3/4 headers. this will get you a tad over 500hp. for more grunt, up the cr to 11.0-1 and add the proper cam, try to keep the weight of rotating mass low. good oil pan with windage and baffles. run a x pipe with free flowing muffs. if more hp is desired, better head flow and more cam. just my opinion. Dave

Originally posted by CamaroJSU:
I want to use a 6.0 rod and the comp. to be around 10.2 10.5. Im going to bore it .30 over, but I didnt know if I should go on and stroke it since I was buying a new crank why not stroke it. I didnt know if that extra cubic inches whould help any. tongue.gif Again - What rod/piston combination are you going to use? What is the compression height on the piston? Who makes it? How much does it cost?

rene, my car as of yet hasn't had a true clean pass, my fuel pump was checking out at about the same time the motor was checking in. with helping on my buddys heavy street drag car and work, i have yet to get it back to the track. now that i have the excuses out of the way :rolleyes: , with the factory horseshoe shifter and drag radials on steel rallys, it went 11.93 at 112, with a 1.66 60'. still not bad for a basically stock chassis and all the ammenities, like power steering and power brakes. i'm really looking forward to getting it back to the track with a revised fuel system. 406's like fuel. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I know this is going to cause some backlash BUT....if your going to put the money into making 600 ponies, i would strongly advise against using a factory 400 block. They are notorious for having weak main webbings, and over heating. I personally have never had a 400 block and dont know first hand BUT there are sterotypes for a reason. If you get an aftermarket block they can bore up to 4.250 i believe. so if you build a 4.125 bore motor there lots of bores left in it and essentially would probably last you the rest of your hot rodding career. Next on the agenda, to get 600 horse and what ever torque, your going to need a big *** cam and that is going to narrow your power band and probably wont be very fun to drive on the street or to cruises with a custom 8" 5500 rpm converter in an automatic. So concider a stick and some deep rear gears if your going to do alot of street driving. Thats my opinion, i know how everyone on here loves their automatics

Nothing productive to say!! Just wishing everyone a wonderful day!!


Edited by the Janitor: I'm sure that's what you really wanted to say Brian...

[ 08-10-2003, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: DjD ]

Thanks CNC!! Have a great day yourself..

Edit by the Janitor: Don't mind me, just pushing the broom around and stopped to wipe up a spill!! ;)

[ 08-10-2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: DjD ]

Edited by the Janitor: Only a small spill folks, this isle will be open again shortly...

[ 08-10-2003, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: DjD ]

Originally posted by 69RS/SS350:
Thanks CNC!! Have a great day yourself..

Edit by the Janitor: Don't mind me, just pushing the broom around and stopped to wipe up a spill!! ;) Yeah, that's it. That's what I meant to say. :mad:

;)

It has really been a great day. I hope everyone has had a great weekend. :D

LOL,
My joke was funny though, ha! you guys missed it.

No, I didn't miss it. It was your typical comment. :rolleyes:

Here's my friends 550+HP - 406 street motor, its a street/strip ride, but is streetable!

406 ~ 11:1 pump gas
solid roller - mid 250s int. / around 260 exh. - cant remember exact specs.
Brodix Track I's - 2.08/1.60, ported - 305/214cfm.
Brodix intake
HP950
1" spacer
1 7/8" custom headers

Its in a 2900lbs Luv truck and gone 10.22@129 in the heat, and we expect 9.90s
this winter with tweakin. Also its gone 9.40s on gas! This is with a ATI 8", glide
and 373s. It is laud with a 3 1/2" exhaust and flowmaster, but a milder exhaust
would make it nicer to drive around. So even if you added say 500lbs to get it the
weight of a camaro - you'd still have a mid 10sec. streetable car. So thats one way
of doin it! :D
Have a nice day ya'll tongue.gif

Originally posted by CamaroNOTcamero:
LOL,
My joke was funny though, ha! you guys missed it. Won't be missing you at all on the Chevelle site! graemlins/waving.gif

wont be missing the chevelle site tongue.gif

Originally posted by CamaroNOTcamero:
wont be missing the chevelle site tongue.gif I've got a pool going, want to buy a couple squares? ;)

i see you're working on getting me banned from this site as well?
Not going to happen, as you dont bother me tough guy.

Thanks CNC! Have a great day yourself!

Children....

Originally posted by CamaroNOTcamero:
i see you're working on getting me banned from this site as well?
Not going to happen, as you dont bother me tough guy. I will be anouncing the winner of the pool shortly. Early polling results do indicate that I am a landslide winner, however. ;)

Ysk, Tsk, Tsk!!!

Sitting on the side AND reading right along..

Hang in there Brian AND keep your COOL!!!

Sorry about the Team Chevelle stuff, too.........

I at least am here to enjoy myself AND not rile anybody on purpose.

But, what the hey, if my mouthing offends anybody, just politely tell me to shut the ---- up... And I will and won't get offended AT ALL...

Carry on men!

And Dennis, you hang in there too b/c I really enjoy this site and the others too....I think you are doing a great job of minding the store...

As always, just pdq67