In the video he claims Fred Gibb only sold 13 of the 50 ordered. Anyone know this to be a fact?
http://www.classicmusclecars.com/cgi-bin/swrm/embed_win_b.pl?id=931&bl=m-;;k-;;nhs-65;;status-Investment;;sb-

There is paperwork to support that. I was involved with #4 years ago and had a copy of a shipping document for it and another ZL-1 for the return to Norwood. It was dated early May 1969. #4 and #43 ended up at Hauser Chev in Bethlehem PA in August of '69.

From the CRG website report on COPO 427:

"Fred Gibb placed the first COPO 9650 order, for fifty units, and except for units #3 and #51, which went to other dealers, his order was the first fifty units built. However, Fred Gibb was only able to sell thirteen of these fifty units himself: #s 1, 2, 5, 9, 15, 16, 19, 21, 28, 30, 36, 45, and 48. The remaining units were either returned to Chevrolet for redistribution or directly exchanged with other dealers. (See the CRG compilation list (http://www.camaros.org/9560list.shtml) for the option details and the selling dealers.) "

I over heard Helen Gibb say Fred started with COPO's in 68 with the Nova. The extra cost of the Nova was about $1000 (if I recall correctly). In 69 Fred figured he could sell a ton of the ZL-1 if the price increase was similar to the Nova. GM changed their policy for 69 and passed all of the engineering cost on with the cars. Imagine the shock when Fred saw that first invoice! I hope nobody is gonna use that car in the video to put together a correct COPO clone cuz it's got a few issues.

Jeff

From the CRG website report on COPO 427:

"Fred Gibb placed the first COPO 9650 order, for fifty units, and except for units #3 and #51, which went to other dealers, his order was the first fifty units built. However, Fred Gibb was only able to sell thirteen of these fifty units himself: #s 1, 2, 5, 9, 15, 16, 19, 21, 28, 30, 36, 45, and 48. The remaining units were either returned to Chevrolet for redistribution or directly exchanged with other dealers. (See the CRG compilation list (http://www.camaros.org/9560list.shtml) for the option details and the selling dealers.) "

Am I confused?

I thought the copo 9650's were iron block 427 cars....
And yes, the 50 ordered, considerably less than that actually sold, is what I recall.

But didn't this thread start out asking about ZL1's?
ZL1's are alluminum block engines?
Gibb didn't order no 50 allumumin block $8000 Camaro's... There were only a few ZL1 cars built, and a few dozen more counter engines...

I over heard Helen Gibb say Fred started with COPO's in 68 with the Nova. The extra cost of the Nova was about $1000 (if I recall correctly). In 69 Fred figured he could sell a ton of the ZL-1 if the price increase was similar to the Nova. GM changed their policy for 69 and passed all of the engineering cost on with the cars. Imagine the shock when Fred saw that first invoice! I hope nobody is gonna use that car in the video to put together a correct COPO clone cuz it's got a few issues.

Jeff

Thanks Gary for the link,
Yellow69RS I hear you ,starting off with that grille.

Am I confused?

I thought the copo 9650's were iron block 427 cars....
And yes, the 50 ordered, considerably less than that actually sold, is what I recall.

But didn't this thread start out asking about ZL1's?
ZL1's are alluminum block engines?
Gibb didn't order no 50 allumumin block $8000 Camaro's... There were only a few ZL1 cars built, and a few dozen more counter engines...

9560 were the ZL1's at a option cost of $3950.00 plus D & H $210.15(COPO ZL1) Alumunium Block
9561 were the Iron Block at the cost of $489.75(COPO L72) Iron Block
http://www.camaros.org/pdf/options.pdf
The 1st. 50 were ordered by Fred Gibb
69 ZL1's were built total
Here is a picture of 1st delievered as promised by Chevrolet
http://fredgibb.com/images/ZL1-new.jpg
Here the list of 69 ZL1's
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/76000/an/0/page/0
History of the man had a big part of them.
http://fredgibb.com/gibb_history.html
#58 and # 64 were sold out of my hometown back then by Indian River Chevrolet in Cocoa,Fla.As a kid I remember this dealer well as my Dad bought all his cars here and remember the musclecar era.
Here is pic of #64 when it was racing
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/download.php?Number=188845
After restoration.....
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/download.php?Number=188846
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/download.php?Number=188848

Am I confused?

I thought the copo 9650's were iron block 427 cars....
And yes, the 50 ordered, considerably less than that actually sold, is what I recall.

But didn't this thread start out asking about ZL1's?
ZL1's are alluminum block engines?
Gibb didn't order no 50 allumumin block $8000 Camaro's... There were only a few ZL1 cars built, and a few dozen more counter engines...
Re: Camaros
COPO #9560 = all aluminum ZL-1 engine, 69 cars built in 1969
COPO #9561 = all iron L-72 engine, estimates are in the +/-800 range

There were also a few ZL-1 'Vettes & counter engines, but that's another story for another day...

Gibb didn't order no 50 allumumin block $8000 Camaro's... There were only a few ZL1 cars built, and a few dozen more counter engines...

Yes, had to produce 50 to qualify them for NHRA drag racing somehow.

Jeff

ok, got it.

ok, got it.

The report is about all 427 Camaros. http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

Gibb didn't order no 50 allumumin block $8000 Camaro's... There were only a few ZL1 cars built, and a few dozen more counter engines...

Jeff

Historical records indicate otherwise.

Gibb didn't order no 50 allumumin block $8000 Camaro's... There were only a few ZL1 cars built, and a few dozen more counter engines...

Yes, had to produce 50 to qualify them for NHRA drag racing somehow.

Jeff

A new expert ? I don't even know how to respond. Just how many do you think were built ? 50 ?

Am I confused?

And yes, the 50 ordered, considerably less than that actually sold, is what I recall.

Gibb didn't order no 50 allumumin block $8000 Camaro's... There were only a few ZL1 cars built, and a few dozen more counter engines...
OK now that I got ya ALL cornfused:D. You missed it in JimM's post above but caught it when I copied and pasted to mine. I know the stuff I read says they produced 69. And as far as how many Fred ordered I got the info here (about half way down the page)http://www.fredgibb.com/gibb_history.html
it's also here http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml
Jeff

I see it now Jeff. Jim said it.:(

When Fred Gibb and Dick Harrell did the 1968 SS396 375hp TH400 Chevy II project, they ordered 50 cars to meet the minimum required for NHRA and AHRA rules. The Chevy IIs sold quickly. It has been said that some owners reported that they were making the car payments with their race winnings.

Different story with the ZL1 Camaros. They had trouble selling them due to the high price.

Some dealers replaced the ZL1 engine with an iron BB and sold the engines separately.

The ZL1 engines were used more in road racing Corvettes then in drag racing.
Most Drag racers were using the L88 engine or the CanAm block as they proved to be a more reliable drag racing engines.

Gibb didn't order no 50 allumumin block $8000 Camaro's... There were only a few ZL1 cars built, and a few dozen more counter engines...

Yes, had to produce 50 to qualify them for NHRA drag racing somehow.

Jeff

In the video he claims Fred Gibb only sold 13 of the 50 ordered. Anyone know this to be a fact?
http://www.classicmusclecars.com/cgi-bin/swrm/embed_win_b.pl?id=931&bl=m-;;k-;;nhs-65;;status-Investment;;sb-

?????? I'm a bit confused about yellow69RS's reply.....

I have the original shipper documents when my # 34 ZL-1 was recieved by Gibb Chevrolet, and and also when the car was picked up by GM's shipper and shipped back to the Norwood plant a few months later and also the paperwork from the state of Maryland when the same car was recieved from Norwood by Govan's Chevrolet in Baltimore and also the GM financing documents when the car was finally sold to the public in June of 1970....

here is the original 1980s article where Vinnce Piggins released the 69 vin numbers for the ZL1s


http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=141402

Are we arguing about the history of ZL1 Camaro's????
Hell, even the VIN's are well known.

I think the rift is Jeff claiming "Gibb didn't order no 50 allumumin block $8000 Camaro's... There were only a few ZL1 cars built, and a few dozen more counter engines..."

Clearly not accurate....but it is accurate that Gibb didn't SELL no 50 allumumin block $8000 Camaro's...

..........Gibb didn't order no 50 allumumin block $8000 Camaro's... There were only a few ZL1 cars built, and a few dozen more counter engines...

I think the rift is Jeff claiming "Gibb didn't order no 50 allumumin block $8000 Camaro's... ......


JimM said it originally. 69 ZL1s were built. Not all were sold. Some engines were replaced with 396 or iron 427s. Engines sold however. All documented at the CRG website. Are they correct? Heck if I know, but my money is on them.:beers:

I think the rift is Jeff claiming "Gibb didn't order no 50 allumumin block $8000 Camaro's... There were only a few ZL1 cars built, and a few dozen more counter engines..."

Clearly not accurate....but it is accurate that Gibb didn't SELL no 50 allumumin block $8000 Camaro's...
See my post @ #14
Jeff
I will not copy and paste in the threads. it creates too much confusion!
I will not copy and paste in the threads. it creates too much confusion!
I will not copy and paste in the threads. it creates too much confusion!
:thumbsup:

Oh and BTW thanks Gary L. Can I go back and edit my confusing post somehow?

Jeff

there was more then "a few dozen more counter engines..."


From CRG "Engine production eventually totaled 80 "ME", 14 "MG", 54 "ML", and 34 "MM". Many bare blocks and heads were also sold."

The 94 ME and MG engines were for the ZL1 Corvette but only a few were used in cars.

Chevy was still selling the ZL1 engines and parts into the early 70s as they were needed for SCCA racing. Then Chevy allowed Yenko to take over the production of the alum BBs

Oh and BTW thanks Gary L. Can I go back and edit my confusing post somehow?

Jeff


Now I get it......

Just to verify the point that the cars did not sell at an $8000 price tag, my ZL-1 finally sold in June of 1970...almost a year on the dealer's lot...for a measly 4800 bucks !! The dealer sure took a loss on that one!! But he probably got his monies worth in "test drives" !!!

From the CRG website report on COPO 427:

"Fred Gibb placed the first COPO 9650 order, for fifty units, and except for units #3 and #51, which went to other dealers, his order was the first fifty units built. However, Fred Gibb was only able to sell thirteen of these fifty units himself: #s 1, 2, 5, 9, 15, 16, 19, 21, 28, 30, 36, 45, and 48. The remaining units were either returned to Chevrolet for redistribution or directly exchanged with other dealers. (See the CRG compilation list (http://www.camaros.org/9560list.shtml) for the option details and the selling dealers.) "


Not that I doubt it, but are there any docs. of cars that were redistributed directly to other dealers?? I always assumed all the remaining unsold cars were sent back to GM....????

The Hauser Chevrolet Bethlehem PA invoice number 59xx 0n the Lemans Blue 1969 ZL1 4spd Camaro sold for $7506.60.The date of the invoice is July 1st 1970. Vin is 124379N615362.Motor stamp was T0123ML.

Now I get it......

Just to verify the point that the cars did not sell at an $8000 price tag, my ZL-1 finally sold in June of 1970...almost a year on the dealer's lot...for a measly 4800 bucks !! The dealer sure took a loss on that one!! But he probably got his monies worth in "test drives" !!!

Post some pic's of that with some pic's of that Fathom Green car :thumbsup: :beers: :D

Just as an FYI, I was digging through some stuff today and ran across a letter from Piggins to Musser dated "July 3, 1969", with "information concerning the ZL-1 engine".

It states that 69 ZL-1 COPO 9560 have been built and distributed to dealers and that they're legal to run in NHRA on July 4th. It also lists engine sales through service to date:

As shipped assemblies: Sold=44 and GMPD stock=13
Bare blocks: Sold=7 and GMPD stock=12

He finishes the letter by stating that "Joe Pike is receiving additional inquiries now from other dealers interested in obtaining the ZL-1 Camaro COPO"...!

Post that letter !!!

a little trivia on ZL#1.

After it was restored, it was almost lost in a trailer fire. They were able to pull it out before it was completely burned.

The guy by the drivers door is Bill Porterfield. He was the owner and you can see in the pic that his arm is wrapped. His arms were burned while saving the car from burning to the ground. A spring shackle had broken on the trailer and a tire was rubbing on the fender to the point that it got hot enough to set fire to cardboard that was sitting on top of the fender inside the trailer. He just happened to look in his rear view mirror and saw little plumes of smoke coming out corners of the trailer. When he opened the trailer door it burst into flames. He was throwing burning cardboard at a guy that was trying to keep him from going into the burning trailer... That had to be quite a day...

Thanks for the info, That is quite a story !!