I caught about 3/4 of a special tonight on CNBC..."Saving GM: The Inner Crisis".

Like Lutz, I felt the the program pointed out the good and bad points of the company in general and the intro of the 1010 Camaro.

Some of the questions were pointed that were thrown to that GM OEM, like..."Why do you think you have been kept on as OEM even though the company has been doing so poorly for the past few years?"

Wagoner side stepped it with..."Well the Board of Directors seemed to think it was best to keep me in"...and it was mentioned that this OEM made a reported $11 mil in '07!

You could tell that the head of GM had been given the questions as he reported why the company has not done as good as it has.

I think talking to one of the guys on the line who had been with the company for more than 30 years brought about more in depth/valid answers that Wagoner gave (surprise, surprise).

I did like the footage that was given to the new Camaro, although a lot of it had been reported before... but the main man who was responsible for it was really...careful in his responses, and I wish he had been a lot more aggressive in his answer to whether the sales of this muscle car would be a success...he meekly left you with the feeling of...It's hard to make any kind of a guess at this time. But, maybe he was just being honest, eh?
I would have thought he would have been a lot more positive.

Anyway, I tried not to show any bias... just wondered if any out there had seen this special, and what you thought of it.

capt

I saw it a few weeks back and agree (if it was the same one?).
Wagoner was as cocky as ever, as well as the 2010 camaro product manager. I think he pretty much said that they built what they wanted to build.

If you match that with the statements about the cadillac CTS being so sucessfull, you can see the same design cues.

I think they are taking the success of the CTS, and making the camaro with the same "feel".

Rich

I saw it last night and I thought it was really good. I thought Waggoner did as good of a job of answering the questions as he could and he pretty much covered it fo me when he said in a nut shell,if anybody thinks all these problems developed under his watch exclusively and doesn't involve alot of other factors' then they haven't been watching over the last 40 years or so. And the show did a good job of showing the declining market share graph associated with the CEO of the time comments...interesting series of denials. In the segment on the Camaro,oddly enough I did hear on one of the conversations where they were kind of listening in on a bunch of the engineers...one of them said "well,if we're talking about a complete re-design here I think we're in trouble"...dont know what he was talking about,one part or the car itself,but that seems to be the talk on this forum too. I dont want to get this going again,but I dont like the car,never have and I dont plan on buying one,I think the project engineer and GM as well are guarded about their comments and know that the car is too late ( they pointed out the mustang and the already on the market Challenger),and I believe in the wake of the economic problems we have it's the wrong car at the wrong time for GM...we'll see

I hear you on being late again, Pat... When asked that same question the head man of the Camaro divsion was just about to answer yes to being late...started to, but stopped before it came out of his mouth...then went on in another direction.

But, I did like it when the Aussies who were doing the design stood up to the poobahs in Detroit and said no when asked to lower the roof profile, which they said would compromise the integrity of the chassis.

Even at the end of the special, I had mixed feelings.

capt

A once great car company that still makes "some" good stuff will soon be owned by Toyota. They will go BK, Toyota will get them and bring them into the future. GM missed the boat in the board room and the union missed the boat by not agreeing to be more flexible and seeing the factory of the future (Lean Manufacturing) as the way cars should be produced as it's done at Toyota. They would not allow GM to do it and the GM board just oh well and took the money and let the company and it's customers down. None of them fought to keep the company alive and doing well. When a company like Toyota is breathing down you neck you should know you have to do something.

PDQ says it all the time about the "Corn Popper" and 50 MPG cars they sold for a few years, GM would not allow that car to come back and now they struggle with getting cars that get 35-40MPG and 50MPG was done by them 10-15 years ago via Suzuki. What a bunch of screw ups. Dodge and Ford are not far behind.

What is saving Ford right now is the CEO came from the Aerospace industry, if there is an industry that knows how to trim the fat it's aerospace. He was looked at as not doing the right things but look at him now. THe only reason he has gone to Wa. with the other two is Ford may need something in the future and he is supporting his industry partners.

I have been a GM guy for years but Ford has seen the light and leads the other two in making cars that people want, need and enjoy. Out of all the GM stuff, the new Camaro, the Vett, the new trucks and the new Malibu are the only things I would ever consider buying. One of them I can't afford, the other may not come in vert now and my current truck will be driven into the ground before I buy a new one. That leaves a malibu but I can buy lots of fuel my truck and drive my 67 Camaro for what that will cost me to purchace and then add the extras like fuel for it, insurance, taxes and maintenance.

What Joe says - X2.
I'm waiting for Toyota to buy GM. If they don't, shame on them.

Guess it's nothing new, eh? At the start of the last century, there were over 20 car manufacturers competing, and only the best survived.

Does seem ironic that the company that started the whole line production concept, is the one who may be shoreing up the other two.

Canada is poised with 3.8Bil ready to give to the big three (waiting for the states to make their move, as usual)...but word on the street says that this is but a stop gap measure, and the inevidable will take place. Time will tell.

capt

What Joe says - X2.
I'm waiting for Toyota to buy GM. If they don't, shame on them.

After they BK and Toyota gets them I don't think Toyota has to worry about the union. I really feel bad for the factory workers that are going to get screwed by both the union and the company. It's more the company that the union but the Union is not stupid, they were just as greedy. I can understand why when the company is also.

The salary ranks are really going to suffer a major blow also and I am not talking about the upper crust, I am talking about the ones that just like the union factory workers keep the company going and give lots of hours for no OT pay just to see if they can make differance. The foundations to GM (Factory workers and lower level salary workers) will be shaken up and taken advanatage of while the uppercrust of the Company and the Union skate off scott free.

What Joe said X3.

GM has it's fate sealed. The fact they are even still considering rolling out the Camaro tells me they haven't seen the light. Too many problems to count. Now you've got the morons in Detroit slashing tires and vandalizing Toyotas, Nissans and the like on the streets and parking lots of Detroit. Writing "buy American" on the sides of privately owned vehicles. With that kind UAW brainwashing many of these guys are no longer employable should they lose their jobs. I guess no one told them what percentage of a GM car is actually American made. I feel for them, but some of them, not all, are their own worst enemies.

Chrysler is being skimmed by the Europeans and will also probably struggle to stay afloat. Ford is the only one with their act somewhat together today.

As far as the Camaro goes, the money has all been invested in tooling and such. They are already building Camaros and working on getting the line up to speed. They have nothing to lose by carrying on at this point. They might even sell a few. You will probably see them dump GMC, Pontiac, or Buick, and other stuff like Hummer, if they can find a buyer for it.

As far as the Camaro goes, the money has all been invested in tooling and such. They are already building Camaros and working on getting the line up to speed. They have nothing to lose by carrying on at this point. They might even sell a few. You will probably see them dump GMC, Pontiac, or Buick, and other stuff like Hummer, if they can find a buyer for it.

I see GMC or Chevy trucks going away. I don't and never have understood why they have the same trucks just re-badged and have for years? Maybe someone that works for GM can tell us if they are built at the same plants? I guess I could look on the net and find out. It's this kind of mentality that is just killing them. I also agree with you on the camaro, they should move forward. I hope the it sells like hotcakes!! On the same thought I hope they offer it in high H/P and low H/P or even as a hybrid. That would be a car Company appealing to everyone, letting the customer decide what they want. I would love to own one that had 500 H/P for having fun and have one that I could drive everyday that gets 35-40 MPG.

I guess it makes sense to move forward if it's already into the production phase. Had this happened in the R&D phase it probably would've been best to kill it. But since it's at this point perhaps they can offset some of the cost of developing the car. My point is these kind of pet projects isn't the way out of the woods for GM. But 300 hp V6 that'll get 29 mpg certainly appeals more to me than their Colbalts of Malibu that might get 32 mpg. I here the Volt facility is on hold as they might use one of their shut down engine plants in Flint to manufacture the Volt instead of a new facility. That probably makes sense. I hope the Camaro does well since they've now committed to it. Still don't care for the appearance, but what's underneath is really, really nice.

I agree with Joe on the two lines of identical trucks, badged differently and with different trim. I know people who swear one line is better than the other and will talk your ear off as to why. I highly doubt there's much difference.

If GM really wanted to let their customers decide what they want they wouldn't force you to buy a bundled package of options you don't want just to get one or two of the items in that group. I think they do a terrible job letting the customer tailor the vehicle to his liking and have for many years.

If GM really wanted to let their customers decide what they want they wouldn't force you to buy a bundled package of options you don't want just to get one or two of the items in that group. I think they do a terrible job letting the customer tailor the vehicle to his liking and have for many years.

After all this has been happening it's crazy to find out how much the Union has had the power over GM (or was it just an excuse GM uses?) to keep them from going with lean manufacturing and using the factory of the future manufacture methods like Toyota does.

I am not preaching what Toyota has done will work for GM as all companies are different in the approach but I can say that where I work it has really helped. It was a very hard culture change at first and people were and still are resistant but one of the first things you learn about lean is that your never done with it and your always learning and seeking better ways to do something. When I say "something" that means everything from how build the most complicated parts or structures to cleaning the bathroom.

The later is actually quite funny. When a person (hourly on the shop floor) said we could save money and have the restrooms clean all the time by doing them ourselves they not only got laughed out of the room, some people were down right offended and had very bad remarks, some saying that the job was beneath them. Well it went to trial in one area with the he promise from management that 1/2 the money saved would some how benefit the employees if the restrooms in that area were truly kept up to par. After just one month that area ordered in a fully catered BBQ lunch from the best place in town from the money saved!!
That what you call a motivator and only for one month!! The company (our little part of it) subsidizes the vending machines to make things cheaper for everyone, they put more into our employee recreation fund (this last summer each employee and all your family members had an all expense paid including gas and parking, catered lunch and all the drinks you wanted all day and night to a water park). Today we are having blow out X-mas dinner, BBQ, turkeys and all the fixings 1 hours paid off to leave early and all retired employees are invited to join us.
All from just cleaning up after ourselves just like you would do at home.

Guess what our rest rooms are very clean, the floors are waxed and in a manufacturing area you can go to the sink and clean off grease and grime in a clean sink, a spotless counter and hand cleaner and towels are always there. It's amazing to see someone clean off a major amount of grease and dirt then clean up everything and wipe down the area, it takes just seconds to do and it's ready for the next person.
It makes you wonder just how much company's both big and small could save. We take allot of things for granted at work like a clean restroom.

It's the little things that can save jobs, return profit and boost moral. It also makes people responsible and accountable for all aspects of the job. It sounds stupid but our employees are proud of the way our shops look and the rest rooms look and are not afraid to call out a person to clean up after themselves. This has led to other things like safety and people knowing they are empowered to make a difference and stop a bad behaver. We are going on almost one year with not one safety incident!! Not a single one!!! We are getting a full blown catered dinner,twice the amount of time for lunch and very nice program Jackets right after the new year for this!! We also just won a few months back and got top honors of the shingo prize award for lean manufacturing. The auditors said we had some very "innovative" implementations of lean, it's not all about just building product it also about people.

OK off my stump, I guess you get the picture, I love my job and were I work!! :yes:

I see GMC or Chevy trucks going away. I don't and never have understood why they have the same trucks just re-badged and have for years? Maybe someone that works for GM can tell us if they are built at the same plants? I guess I could look on the net and find out. It's this kind of mentality that is just killing them. I also agree with you on the camaro, they should move forward. I hope the it sells like hotcakes!! On the same thought I hope they offer it in high H/P and low H/P or even as a hybrid. That would be a car Company appealing to everyone, letting the customer decide what they want. I would love to own one that had 500 H/P for having fun and have one that I could drive everyday that gets 35-40 MPG.

I can't vouche for today but I did used to live in Dayto Ohio, home of the old S10 Blazer / S15 Jimmy. These were built at the same plant. The door that they drove them out of had Chevrolet and GMC signs hanging above it.

I too used to be a loyal GM guy. I would bleed for them at that time, that is untill I bought a new 93 GMC Jimmy. Red with a full leather interior and all the bells and whistles. It turned me against GM. What a rattling, poorly designed and built POS. The front brake calipers rusted tight at 30,000 miles. I took it to the dealer they said so sorry but you are on your own and, oh, by the way, the freeze plugs are leaking on the back of the block. I traded it in on a Toyota.

Back to the GM CNBC program. The chief designer said they had a design that looked "just like" a 68 Camaro. He said he wanted to do something different. WRONG! Geeze, they were so close to having a real winner, instead they have a modern interpretation of a classic. Maybe it will grow on me, but IMHO the Challenger and Mustang hit the mark, the new Camaro missed it.

I also got a kick out of the reporter asking if they were 2 years too late. Yep. We all know how long they have talked about the Camaro and teased the public. And then their CEO comes on and talks about how "fast" they get their cars from concept to the showrooms. Give us all a break.

And in closing I will leave you all with this little gem. A good friend of mine's dad worked at GM's Moraine plant and has been retired for about 20 years. Bringing down great retirment wages and using a lot of health care benefits. This guy is good people, put in his time, played by the rules and he deserves what he is getting. However he was complaining around Thanksgiving about not getting his usual holiday "bonus". (remember he has been retired for 20 years). Guess what he got the other day, after the good people of the US bailed out GM? You guessed it, a $1000 holiday bonus check!

GM gave out holiday bonus checks after the bailout? Where is the government oversight on that?

Stick a fork in me, I am done.

Z28 is already shelved for a couple of years at least.

I see GMC or Chevy trucks going away. I don't and never have understood why they have the same trucks just re-badged and have for years? Maybe someone that works for GM can tell us if they are built at the same plants? I guess I could look on the net and find out. It's this kind of mentality that is just killing them. I also agree with you on the camaro, they should move forward. I hope the it sells like hotcakes!! On the same thought I hope they offer it in high H/P and low H/P or even as a hybrid. That would be a car Company appealing to everyone, letting the customer decide what they want. I would love to own one that had 500 H/P for having fun and have one that I could drive everyday that gets 35-40 MPG.

The 2 truck thing has worked well for 50 years. It is a marketing strategy. They have been made at the same plants because I have seen a truck w/ Chevy on one side and GMC on the other. Not sure if they still are. Years ago they had different options and engines available. Remember the big V6 GMC had in the 70s?

We can discuss survival of the fittest all day long, but we need to keep our own manufacturing base going in this country. Steel is gone, textiles are gone. What are we to become? A barrista society all serving coffee? Sure they have screwed up. But I think they are more important than most people think. I would hate to hear in the future: "we should have done something to save them". I too have a gripe about not moving faster om mileage vehicles. Who cares if a car gets 30 MPG on the freeway. The new Prius is set to do 50 MPG. Why would I buy a a Malibu hybrid at 26 MPG in town and not a Altima hybrid at 34 MPG in town? I know they are down, but I sure hope not out. Just what I want, a Japanese (or any foreign country for that matter) auto maker as the main supplier of autos in this country.:noway:

I need to see if that program is to be repeated.