Hello all.

I am trying to cool a ZZ502 in a '69, and the stock 4 core "goose neck"/shroud/7 blade clutch fan ain't cutting it. I'm look for any opinions on BeCool vs Griffin radiators (fit/finish/reliability). Also looking for a good electric fan/shroud combo that fits the application. I wasn't thrilled with Griffin's tech line, the person really didn't seem to want to help. I quess I'll try BeCool next.

Keith
'69 RS/SS 502

Try Ron Davis at 800-842-5166. His radiators are expensive but I'd pay him double before I got a free one from elsewhere. He'll make a shroud and incorporate the fan(s).

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Cam Douglass
OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
71 Z-28

Thanks for the info, Cam. I have not heard of his radiators befor, but I'll give it a shot. The Be-Cool people were definately more personable then the crew at Griffin. BeCool said that they had a radiator/electric fan combo that was designed for the 502 in a first gen. Fan kinda looks hokey, though.

I can't believe no one else on this list has any opinions on either BeCool or Griffin.

Again, Thanks.

Keith

'69 RS/SS 502

I just purchased a Griffin for my gen gen Firebird in an attempt to cool a fairly stout 350. Made a difference, but my flez fan was not up to the challange. I just bough an electric fan setup off a 4th gen camaro. It has two 11 (12?) fans. Since my problem was only at idle, it should do the trick.

Mark
1992 Firebird 355/Six Speed
1991 RS 350 / Blown (As in Broke)
1987 Toyota Pickup 383 / 500 + HP

I'm have a ZZ-502-502 in a 69 and bought a Griffin 2 core AL. radiator. Each core is 1 1/4". A friend of mine has a 427 in a 69 with a Griffin in it with a 7 blade fan and fan clutch and it runs fine.
Part number 6-567AE-BAX. There wasn't any problems going in. It bolted right up. This radiator has the trans cooler. I have a Hughes T-400 for a trans. I'll know more next week when the car will be running. Just finishing up a frame off resto.

Bob

Thank's for the replies, everyone.

Mark-a word or two about flex fans. I had a blade come straight through a NOS steel hood on my '69. If it would have happened 20 minutes earlier (as I was checking timing and had my head and shoulders full in the engine comp.) I may not be here. You are making the right choice with the electrics.

Bob-Please keep us posted on your progress, because I am still out on if and who's Al. radiator I will use. I really thought my current system would work.

Thanks again everyone.

Keith
RS/SS 502

I don't understand why there is any question on what kind of radiator to buy, forget griffin,becool,etc. Go buy a radiator from Ron Davis Racing Products at 800-842-5166 he will hook you up.

I have the 21" Griffin with the larger sized tubes. I also had them install a Spal electric fan. The workmanship was outstanding and I've never had a problem talking with them, either. Mine is in a fairly stout 355. You can go to the 23" also but for me it was overkill.

I've got the Be cool, and the flex a lite dual electric fans. Work good in the Vegas heat (115+) and it fit great. There is a not too great pic in the sig at the bottom.
Tyler

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1968 RS/SS Camaro w/ 94 vette LT-1 and T56 six speed, Cal-Tracs, Baer 12" crossdrilled brakes 17" rims, ect....
<A HREF="http://home.earthlink.net/~speedracer68/tyler.htm" TARGET=_blank>
My 68 with LT1 and T56</A>

This is going to surprize some people and it quite frankly surprized me BUT I would reccomend that you use a STOCK 4 Core radiator and take it to a good radiator shop and have them make it into a 5 CORE radiator for you.

I saw this on a LS6 equipped 69 camaro and also on a Pro-Street Camaro and both of them had tried trick aluminum radiators BEFORE they would up with their 5 CORE modified units.

Both of these cars run no more than 160-180 degrees in 100 degree stop and go traffic with 7 blade flex fans and their 5 core radiators!!!!

The modification cost @ 225.00.

GO FIGURE!!!

Aluminum is not always better. As sr71bb said, sometimes the stockers work fine. I found that by adding my Griffin, temp did not change that much. I then added a 4th gen dual fan setup and watched the temp drop. Being a bit curious, I put the stocker back in and added the 4th gens to it. Still ran very hot. In my opinion, aluminum is better IF you can move more air through it.

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Mark

1992 Firebird 355/Six Speed (Soon to be LT1)
1991 RS 350 / 700-R4
1987 Toyota Pickup 383 / 500 + HP 10.963 @ 119.95 Slicks / 11.997 @ 114.23 Radials
"Speed KILLS, so drive a FORD and live forever!"
http://personal.lig.bellsouth.net/~racer383/

I run a 21 inch Two core Griffin and a 15" electric fan on my 454. It gets the job done pretty good but I would prefer a little bit cooler. I'd prefer the 23" and a dual fan setup like Mark suggested. As far as Griffin vs BeCool, personally I can't figure out what BeCool could possibly be doing to their radiators that could make them that much better than a Griffin. Are they using some type of "super-aluminum"? LOL My humble oppinion is that if you want an Aluminum radiator you can get a Griffin for about half the price of a BeCool and I'd be inclined to believe that with a BeCool all you'd be paying all that extra money for is the name. I would however recommend that if money is not an object that if the race crowd seems to endorse the custom made radiators mentioned above then I would have to go with that, but I believe that Griffin radiators are just as effective as any aluminum if they are properly fanned and engine is thermostated correctly. My 454 was getting extremely hot I noticed at stop lights and extremely cool while running down the highway when I first bought my car because the guy who had it before me wasn't even running a thermostat. I believe that a thermostat has a job to do and and it fixed my problem. At least a restrictor plate is required at the very minimum to allow the water to be in the radiator long enough to cool off some. MHO.

Just how expensive are Ron Davis' radiator/fan combos? Say for a small block first gen?

I called them yesterday...$475.00 for a 23".
AL.

Wow, I originally posted this message back in August. I didn't think it would generate this much discussion in the dead of winter! Thanks for everyone's advice!

As for me, I have put off any Rad. or fan purchase until after the holidays. And yes, I'm still on the fence. I have been seriously thinking about keeping my stock 4-core, and trying to find the highest CFM elec. fan I can first. My problem with this is that many elec. fan companys advertise their products for engines "up to 250 hp".

The biggest difference between Griffen and BeCool I have found is this: Griffen - 1.25" tubes, stamped al. tanks, and epoxy sealed tank-to core-seam (the tubes are still welded to the tank, they just have this epoxy there for added rigidity and sealing). BeCool - 1" tubes, fabricated tanks, and no epoxy on the tube-tank seam. As to which is better, I don't know. Looks like most of the responses from this site favor Griffen, but as a whole, the response has been about 50/50 (with places like Ron Davis pulling votes from Griffen). Just like Coke vs. Pepsi, McDonalds vs. Burger King, and Gore vs. Bush, it seems to be a tie. I hope that means I'll get a decent product, whichever I choose. Please, please I do not want to spur a political discussion, I was just stating a fact, O.K.!)

I was actually looking for a horror story or two to decide which product NOT to chose. So far, I haven't really heard any that would make me concerned.

Again, thanks for everyone's input. As cooling is a subject near and dear to everyone on this site (and transends just the Camaro application), I hope to hear more and more responses on this issue.

Thanks,

Keith
'69 Hugger Orange RS/SS 502

Also on the subject of cooling - don't overlook the water pump as part of the total system. I installed a stage 2 Stewart pump. It moves more water. At Stewart's recommendation, I also went with a 22-24 # cap.

RickD,

I am using the Edelbrock high-flow Al. water pump. As far as flowing more water through the rad., there may be a down side. If the water moves too quickly through the Rad., it is not able to disipate much heat. This is why having your thermostat wide open all the time is a bad thing. I really haven't tried switching from a 16 lbs cap. I run about 200 Deg. cruising and 220 Deg. in traffic, but haven't had any boil-over problems. I Just wan't a higher safefty margin for 90 Deg day cruising and for when I put A/C back on the car.

Keith

As a chemistry major in college right now, I can tell you that Aluminum is less able to dissipate heat than stock steel and copper. The main advantage to an aluminum radiator is weight and the cool factor. I agree that if you could have your stocker made into a 5 core radiator, this will work better than an aluminum. BTW, Griffin radiator's plant is right down I-85 about 20 minutes from where I live. Drive by it whenever I go to Atlanta.

I've got a friend that takes 80s Jaguars and throws LT-1s and 4L60E's in them and he always uses a custom built Griffin radiator. Works great with two large electric fans.



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Justin
-1967 Camaro SS350

www-student.furman.edu/users/j/jtrauner

Justin,
I was under the impression that aluminum was indeed a poor dissipator of heat, but a better transferring agent/absorber of heat, therefore it extracts the heat out of the coolant faster. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this also the reason that people are having to install two fans and keep the air coursing past the aluminum, is to try to aid the poor dissipating properties.

One other question about these radiators. I have a friend who works at a radiator shop, and he says they have had to fix some of the Griffins and Ron Davis units they have installed in big block suburbans, trucks, etc, because the aluminum is not as rigid as the brass radiators, and the weight of the large coolant volumes for those big radiators is cracking them where they mount. Anybody else heard of this? I'm going to be making a decision soon as to which radiator brand (leaning toward Ron Davis), and I'm not looking forward to replacing it due to stress problems of the material in a year or two.

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Bing
1956 Chev 150 2dr sedan 302ci
1965 Chev Malibu 2dr hdtp 496ci
1967 Chev Camaro 327ci
Check 'em out at: http://www.members.home.net/mgbing/cremcars.html

Hey Keith, I got the picks of car. It looks great!!. I did about 3 months checking out the radiator deal before I bought mine. I asked alot of street rodders and racing guys before I made my mind up. I don't know how much you spent on your motor but mine ran 6300.00 fully assembled and believe me I didn't want this 502 to over heat. I went with the Griffin and the 7 blade fan with the fan clutch and I have A/C. No problems.
Granted the radiators are up in the 450-500 range but they are worth it.
If I were to build another car I would just pick up the phone and order one from Griffin. No hesitation.
Just my opinion.
Have a great Holiday.

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69 Coupe LeMans-Blue
Frame-Off Resto, ZZ-502/502 Crate, A/C, Griffin Rad., March Serpintine Sys., 2800 Stall with Hughes T-400, Currie 9" with 370 Gears.
http://www.geocities.com/mobiletools1/Mvc-440f.jpg

Here´s somthing to check out.
When shopping for a fan go to your local import scrap yard and get one from a 850 Volvo series complete with shroud and PCM control.
Put this in series with a relay,and control the relay with a thermostat put in the intake.

That there fan(the ones for AC equipped cars btw) will flow enough air to move a friggin house!(The PCM part contains a trafo to make the 12 volts into 24 at the motor)
Not only that...
It will fit like a glove in the camaro!
A couple a tieraps and you´re basically in business-altho you can be as explicit as you want with the mounting.
I run one of these suckers on a Howe rad for my 495 in stop and go without a hint of a glitch.

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DVC-2000.Racing
482 cubes of fogger injected thunder in a 71 z.
racing@mbox303.swipnet.se (http://racing@mbox303.swipnet.se)

To make any radiator work better, it has to be painted or anodized black!! Silver looks pretty and polishes up real nice, BUT it's black that radates the heat.

It's the old "black body" concept from my Heat Transfer class years ago.

I 'm looking at a stock 23" four core copper radiator because of money. I really want an aluminum radiator because it will take a good amount of weight off the front of my car but just can't quite swing it.

I hope that my aluminum intake, headers, truck mounted battery and possibly the al. radiator(if I can afford it) will make up for my 496's weight over a small block. And I really hope my '67's stock SS hood clears my 750 Holley and Strip Dominator, because a fiberglass one with a four inch cowl will remove more weight, but cost me more.

I can't believe that the gooseneck radiator isn't cooling a 502 since it was top a the line for the big 427's. Whats going on?? I don't doubt that it's not, but why??? pdq67

pdq67-You will need to use at least a 000 gauge wire if you put the dattery in YOUR TRUCK.Thats a long way for the power to travel to fire a nasty BB http://www.camaros.net/forum/rolleyes.gifI don't know if that's legal at the drags either http://www.camaros.net/forum/smile.gif You might want to check that out in the rule book before next season starts http://www.camaros.net/forum/wink.gif



[This message has been edited by mutant 68 (edited 12-26-2000).]

Mutant,

I was thinking about a regular battery box and big welding cable. Two cables, one down each side to keep them separated. A hot one to the starter and a cold one to the block.

pdq67

pdq67-Do you really plan on putting the battery in YOUR TRUCK??? http://www.camaros.net/forum/biggrin.gif

The battery in the trunk is something that I won't do anymore.That's because NHRA mandated a master cut off switch if you have the trunk mount.I sure as hell am not going to cut a hole in my car and have that switch sticking out,it looks bad to me.Also,on the street it's just an open invatation for some idiot to screw with your stuff http://www.camaros.net/forum/mad.gif

If you really are going to do it,00 welding cabel works well.For a solid connection,just cut up some small pieces of solder and insert into the connector,heat the connector with a hand held torch till the solder melts,then "QUICKLY" shove in the cable.Be sure to use shrink tube.This process might take a couple of times to get right so leave yourself a little extra when you cut the wire.




[This message has been edited by mutant 68 (edited 12-26-2000).]

pdq67 and Justin are dead on about the thermal properties. Those shiny, silvery, pretty aluminum radiators look cool, but they're real purpose is weight savings. That's why the standard core thickness is 2 inches plus - to make up for poorer thermal efficiency. Copper has much better thermal conductivity, but its higher density has a weight penalty (.098 lbs./cubic inch for alum. vs. somewhere around .4 lbs. per cubic inch for pure copper). As far as heat transfer to the air stream - convection - material has nothing to do with it - purely a function of fluid dynamics and surface temp. But the higher conductivity of the copper/brass design yields better conduction, which increases surface temp. at the tubes and fins, which increase convection. And pdq's right about the black body emissions. That pretty aluminum radiator costs you probably 10 to 15 % thermal efficiency due to poorer radiation (emissivity) alone.

Everything else being equal - a copper/brass radiator is going to be most effective - painting it black only increases the margin. But it weighs an extra 10-20 lbs. or so (??- something like that). If you're on a strict diet for drag racing - I guess every lb. counts - otherwise, you're better off with copper. I think the approximation I heard once was that every 100 lbs. off the weight of the car is like adding 10hp. So a 20 lb. weight savings effectively buys you a whopping 2hp. Something to think about.

Mutant,

They probably won't let me on the strip anyway, what without all the safety stuff.

Bellhousing, driveshaft loop, rollcage/bars, fuel cell, net, fire extinguisher, Nomax Suit, Helicopter, Hospital, a team of emergency room surgeons on call, $100,000,000 medical coverage, my own team of Lawyers, Three Congressmen plus Al Gores #1 strategist in my back pocket, etc...

pdq67

I know, I know, SAFETY FIRST!!! LOL, LOL!!!

Regarding my previous post - I probably overestimated the effects of black vs. unpainted radiators (like by a factor of 3 or more). I was comparing it to an application involving free convection. Forced convection probably drops the influence of radiant heat transfer due to color to just a couple percent. But it'll still help.

LOL, Jeaz, there's no "slack around here at all", He, He, truck/TRUNK!!! Just caught on, and I don't even have a truck!!! Would have to be some lonnnng cables!!

Now that you mention it. A nice five window '48/'50, half tonner would be nice. With a bad to the bone big block in it. Top chopped a schosh! And tubbed and don't forget about four bales a straw for weight. Painted "mousy brown", just like my buddy Nuts had years ago.

You immagine(sp?) the look on the Dudes face in the hot 5.0 when Farmer Brown's truck blows him away!! pdq67

I have a 70 1/2 with a 685hp 502. I bought a Griffin, threw a factory GM clutch and fan at it, run it year round, have made trips to Willow Springs Raceway, and beat the heck out of it.....never seen over 185 far.

Bolts in, looks/works right.

Also know Ron, another excellent choise. Have his products in other rides, no complaints either....much more friendly on the phone though....

Chacane, I would like some info on your motor if possible. Thats quite a bit of hp not to produce heat. I have a Merlin II based 540 being machined at Kieth Black Racing right now and am still hunting out a cam. I am going to use the Dart intake, Dart heads etc. They suggested a pretty severe roller cam from a design they use which has a crank dyno rating on the 540 of over 900hp but I dont want that setup. I am looking for a more mild cam and am interested in what you are using. Also, what intake, heads etc are you working with? Any information would be appreciated!!

Lets get serious here. The weight savings seem to make it worth it!!!

What and where can I buy a 23" wide Griffin rad. to put in my '67 to cool my 496 for?

Can I use a stock big block factory shroud and clutch/fan with it?

Will it bolt in stock?

Please advise. pdq67

I have a griffin aluminum radiator in both my 67's. Holds 180 up to about 105 degrees outside. If the outside temp is 75 or less the fan doesn't come on unless at a stop light for more than 1 light cycle. Summit sells them, about $180 for the 1" tubes and $280 for the 1.25" tubes. I have the biggest one they have, 31X19 w/1.25" tubes in both cars. I guess if you had a copper/brass radiator this big it might cool as good, but I'm sure it will cost alot more.

Battery will not fit in stock location with this size. One is in the trunk and the other is pushed further under the fender.

They also will not bolt in stock. I had a shop weld on brackets to the tanks.

As far as the battery in the trunk thing, NHRA requires all cars running 11.99 or quicker to have a master battery cutoff at the rear of the car. As well as any car with the battery in the trunk. So if your car can hit 11.99, you might as well put the battery in the trunk cause the cables need to go back there anyway. That is if you plan on doing more than one pass at the track.

I've heard the Be Cool radiators are very good quality and fully welded. Griffins are not, the tanks are held on with this rock hard epoxy stuff. So far 2 years of daily driving and no problems.

Lonnie




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67 Camaro 410sb 11.63 @117.6
67 Camaro 388 ET-???
website (http://www.geocities.com/lonnie67_1966)

Lonnie,

Why did you go with such a wide radiator? The hole isn't any where near that big.

As for the stuff you are calling rock hard epoxy, I saw a guy at a parts swap/car show that was soldering beer cans closed with a propane torch and some sort of aluminum hard soldering rods. When the stuff cooled it looked just like J-B Weld, hard as a rock.. It fascinated the heck outa me. pdq67

The core is only 3" wider than the hole. Living in Phoenix, I figured I could use as much capacity as I could get. I would of bought the 27.5" radiator for the other car, but I ended up taking it out of my Chevelle, and its hole is that big.

The 27.5" radiator has about a 23" core, I'm pretty sure it will fit perfect, battery and all. It is epoxy, kinda brown. There is a little drip on one of the tanks. It is stuck on so hard, I just left it alone so I didn't damage the tank.

My buddy has one in his Mustang, and my Dad in his 5.slo Wrangler.

The only thing I don't like is the lower tube, where the lower radiator hose clamps on, whatever it is called. It is angled in and up, kind of hard to find a moulded hose to fit. I did find one though. My dad had his cut off and welded on straight. Oops, that didn't sound good.

Lonnie

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67 Camaro 410sb 11.63 @117.6
67 Camaro 388 ET-???
website (http://www.geocities.com/lonnie67_1966)